MAYOR V. COUNCIL.

Timaru Herald, Volume CXXV, Issue 18453, 20 December 1929, Page 8

MAYOR V. COUNCIL.

WHO SHALL RULE IN WAIMATE?; i MUNICIPAL SOLIGITOR TO BE CONSULTED. At a meeting of the Waimate Borough Council on November 12. the Mayor (Mr G. Dash* gave a ruling in regard to “in committee” privilege. No discussion was allowed on the ruling. | and exception to the Mayor’s attitude was taken by Councillor t i Wr.iiu<° 1 Last night, on the requisition of several Councillors, a special meeting of the Council was held: —(1> To dis- I cuss the Standing Orders and any matters relating thereto, or affecting the Council; (2) To consider leave of, absence for the Town Clerk. There were present:—The Mayor., (Mr G. Dash), Councillors J. Atwlll.

A. J. Kirby, F. T. Wallace, D. Macdonald, W. G. Paul, J. B. Robinson, and T. W. Wylie. The Borough solicitor (Mr S. I. ; Fitch) also was in attendance. At the outset the Mayor said that there were two matters mentioned in the requisition, and he desired to know which Councillors wanted taken' first. After short discussion it was decided to take the question of leave for the Town Clerk first. When this had been disposed of, the i Mayor said that the question before the meeting was that of th° Standing Orders. Firstly, however, he desired to ask if it was correct that the Bor- | ough solicitor was in attendance as a result of a requisition taken round

by Councillor Wallace, and signed by Councillors. Mr Fitch said that he was present at the request of the Town Clerk. He took that as an instruction. The Mayor: “That is ah right, then.” Addressing the Town Clerk (Mr W. A. Lee), the Mayor said: “What is your authority for asking the Borough solicitor to come here?” Mr Lee: “The requisition from Councillors, and after consulting the deputy-Mayor.” Mr Paul: “The Mayor was in Timaru at the time.” The Mayor: “A matter not referred to the Mayor.” Continuing, he said: ' “Do I further understand that Coun- 1 cillor Wallace made arrangements with you all to have this taken in open Council?” Councillor Wallace: “Am I expected to answer that?” The Mayor: “I am aslffng each Councillor.” Councillor Wallace: “I can’t make such an arrangement as that. You may be able to, but I can’t.” Councillor Atwill: “I have not been; with anybody.” The Mayor: “It is quite all right,' gentlemen.” Councillor Robinson, at this stage, * moved: “That we refer the following:

to Mr Martin, solicitor to the Municipal Association in Wellington: “At a meeting of the Waimate Borough Council, held on November 12, the Mayor said: ‘ln reporting In regard to the atmosphere pervading the in committee stages of the last meeting of the Council, the reporter of “The Daily Advertiser’ committed a breach of privilege. If a reporter is allowed to be present during in committee work, he is expected to know nothing of what occurs. In publishing statements made ‘in committee’ at the last meeting, the reporter of ‘The Timaru Herald’ committed a gross breach of privilege, such as is. fortunately seldom heard of. It is my ruling that if any further dis- ; regard of ‘in committee’ rules occurs l reporters will be compelled to withdraw whenever the Council goes into committee.’ ” Questions: — (1) In such a matter is it the prerogative of Council only to decide if a breach of privilege has occurred, and to instruct the Mayor to reprieve the reporters? (2) Did the Mayor exceed his powers? (3) Has the Council the right to discuss all rulings of the chair at the time the rulings are given?

Speaking to his motion, Councillor Robinson said that he understood that Mr Martin was well up in municipal law. He was a man of the strictest integrity, and if the matter was referred to him, he would give his ruling without fear or favour, and that would go far to clearing up the tangle. Councillor Macdonald: “Is that in order? The motion says we are here to discuss the Standing Orders.” The Mayor: “We can’t discuss anything, excepting on a motion.” Councillor Paul: “I will second Councillor Robinson’s motion. I think this is a way out of the difficulty. I think this will clear the air.”

The Mayor: “You are all entitled to speak once to the motion.” Councillor Wallace said he was not in favour of the motion, for it would not be possible to get rid of statements which had been made, which were not true. The Mayor had made statements to the effect that he (Councillor Wallace) had said things which he did not say, and he desired to have that righted. It was only fair to him that that should be,done. He thought the Mayor should Withdraw that in any case.

Councillor Wylie said that he thought it would be better if Councillor Robinson included in his motion the full ruling given by the Mayor. Councillor Robinson had only quoted part of it. Councillor Robinson: “I got the pith of it.” Councillor Wylie: “I am in favour of submitting the whole ruling to MiMartin. He would then have more to go on.” The Mayor asked if the mover and seconder of the motion were prepared to adopt the suggestion made by Councillor Wylie. Councillor Robinson again read his motion, whereupon the Mayor again asked if any Councillors objected. Councillor Wylie: “It will not alter the affect of the motion.”

The Mayor: “Will you accept the suggestion?” Councillor Wallace: “I would like also to make an amendment to the motion.”

The Mayor: “You can move an amendment, or make a suggestion.” Councillor Wallace: “I will make a suggestion, and that is that my remarks be also included. I said: “Is any discussion allowed on the statement?’ The Mayor replied: ‘No.’ I said: ‘Then I take strong exception to it.’ ”

Councillor Robinson: “It includes that in the questions.” Councillor Wallace: “It doesn’t include the circumstances. I can’t see if the Mayor's statement is included in the reference why mine should not be tb°re, toe.”

The Mayor: “There can be no objection to that. It was only a statement of fact.” Councillor Wallace: “It is not on the minutes. Why not, I don’t know. It was reported in both papers, and it was stated. Gouncillor Wallace then moved: “That a committee be appointed to draw up the questions to be submitted to Mr Martin.” He went on to say that it was very difficult to prepare a reference, as anyone who had had anything to do with them would tell. He thought a committee should be set | up to prepare the questions, so that all! parties would then have an opportun- I ity of discussing them before they! went before an arbitrator. The questions should be put right, so that they;

would all be satisfied that what they had to put to Mr Martin was correct-. A good many things had happened since November 12, and he would agree to the reference provided then had an opportunity of going fully into what the reference was to be. The Mayor: “You move an amendment that we set up a committee to draw up questions to be submitted to Mr Martin.” Councillor Paul: “Could they not be drawn up while we are here?” Councillor Wallace: “I am willing to sit here and do it now.” Councillor Macdonald: "I will second Councillor Wallace’s amendment.” The Mayor: “You have met here to deal with this matter. It has been placed before you. What are you going to do? Will you read the three questions again Councillor Robinson.

They seem to be clear.” Councillor Robinson again read the questions. Councillor Wallace contended that the circumstances of the meeting at which the Mayor alleged the papers had committed a breach should be given to the referee. The circumstances were an integral part of the case. It was no use going to the arbitrator unless they gave him the circumstances to which the questions related. The Mayor: “Will you take notice Councillor Wallace that I have permitted you to speak twice to your amendment.” Councillor Wallace: "With the consent of Council, and In accordance

with the Standing Orders, I can speak as much as I like.” The Mayor: “No.” Councillor Wallace: ‘‘Do you sir?” The Mayor: ‘‘l have not spoken tonight.” Councillor Atwill: “I agree with Councillor Wallace.” The Mayor: “The circumstances are all there, aren t they?” Councillor Wallace: “You are just giving an opinion the same as I did.” Councillor Paul said that he could not see that the circumstances altered the matter at all. The questions to be submitted to'the solicitor were the fundamentals. The circumstances would not worry him very much, ior he would simply deal with the legal aspect. The Mayor: “A°- the Borough solici-

tor has just informed me, the Municipal solicitor will not allow himself to be drawn into any squabble. He is there to decide points of law. Councillor Robinson has submitted three questions which cover the grounds of objection raised by Councillor Wallace. He has stressed the objection that a f . a previous meeting of the Council It was not for the Mayor to decide whether a breach of the Standing Orders had been committed. That is submitted by | Councillor Robinson to the solicitor for I the Municipal Association. Council- | lor Wallace has also stressed that the | Mayor exceeded his power in giving the i ruling he gave. Councillor Robinson

Is asking the solicitor if the Mayor exceeded his powers. The third question is whether the Council had the right at the time the ruling was given to discuss it, and Councillor Robinson is asking the solicitor If the Council has that right. Councillor Robinson, in submitting these questions, is doing you a service. Rulings of my own in

years gone by have been removed to the solicitor in Wellington. By happy i chance, it may be, it has been proved that I have been right. It may be now that I am wrong. The statements are plain statements, and we want an answer to tnem, and we want Councillor Wallace to be at peace with himself and everyone, and we can go on with our legal business.” Councillor Wallace: “Can we add a fourth question, and that is: Las the Council the right to discuss the Mayor’s

ruling after.” Councillor Paul: “May I speak again?” The Mayor:: “I have allowed CounI cillor Wallace to speak twice, so I must allow you. After this you must stick to the rules.” | Councillor Wallace: “Can we ask questions?” | The Mayor: “Provided they are questions.” After Councillor Paul had spoken I Councillor Wallace, addressing the I Mayor, said: "Had you seen the questions submitted by Councillor Robin* ; son before this meeting?” The Mayor: “Yes. 1 drew them up. j I have put in a lot of time trying to ' solve your problem.” Councillor Wallace: “I am not surprised at that.” The Mayor: "Pardon me. Sit down.” Councillor Macdonald said he thought it would be quite a fair thing to submit the whole thing to a committee. The Mayor: “May I ask, do you not consider the men sitting rot d the table competent to decide the ques-

tions?” Councillor Macdonald: “Quite.” Councillor Wallace: "But you have drawn up the questions.” The Mayor: “Yes. Have you not thought about it?” Councillor Wallace: “Yes. I have.” The Mayor: “I would have thought 24 hours was enough for a man with your training as a solicitor.” Councillor Wallace: “Thank you for your gentlemanly reference to my training. Why don’t you say it as spectacularly as you usually do?” Councillor Paul: “Haven't we got some order of reference?” j Councillor Wallace: "Haven’t I sug- ! gested it. Is it not a fact that it is | customary to have a Committee to ! draw up an order of reference, Mr Fitch?” . The Mayor: “Isn’t It usual to ask a question through the chair?” ! Councillor Wallace: “I am sorry. I |am wrong, and I apologise. I will ask ! the question through the chair.” Mr Fitch said that the question was a difficult one to answer, for the MuniI cipal Associations' solicitor would only j decide on a question of law. He did I not*see how much more Mr Martin requirid than had been suggested. That was. if the questions were in order, and it was not his province to

speak as to that. He thought the proper course to adopt was to refer the matter to Mr Martin, for he was apart from local interests. He did not think it was necessary to do more than to place him in possession of the facts. Councillor Wallace: “If we have the right to discuss the question now, why submit it to the solicitor?” The amendment was then put and defeated on the casting vote of the Mayor, the voting being: For. Councillors Wallace, Macdonald. Kirby and Atwill. Against. The Mayor and Councillors Wylie, Robinson and Paul The motion, to which Councillor Wallace's remarks made at the November meeting were added, was then put the voting being the same, the Mayor giving his casting vote in favour of the motion. The Mayor: “That finishes that.” Councillor W T allace: “When we get the ruling, will we be able to discuss this after?” The Mayor: “We will be able to discuss the ruling.”