TRAMWAY EXTENSION.

Poverty Bay Herald, Volume XLV, Issue 14635, 19 June 1918, Page 9

TRAMWAY EXTENSION.

NEGOTIATIONS WITH MR. LYSNAR

ATTITUDE OF MINISTER OF

FINANCE

Considerable discussion took place at the Borough Council meeting again last night respecting the proposed agreement , with Mr. W, D. Lysnar regarding the extension of the tramway service. " FINANCE MINISTERS ATTITUDE. Included intbe coi-respolldeneo ttite a letter from Uk» secretary to the treasury - iv.ith lelircitou tti Mm C\)iinoil*s ilitinr • requesting [tertnlhsi^h lo expend £}27,0Q0 on tint extanoiaik o£ tlumWays. aild; stating., by ditefctioh of the acUhg-Miliislfir o^FirjantJC, that though this iria-y appear ii very dfesirabta uttdertakhlgi this; it appeared, was scarcely thte time fov comtrienjehtg operations of this description. The Minister would like to know if the Council could not sea its way to postpone the workifc-Thc Mayor suggested writing to the Finance Minister explaining the whole position. — Cr. Oman urged the matter.be held', over until they had ; dealt with the whole tramway matter. — The Mayor read, the town clerk's letter j of appHcalioiv, and (Suggested they should ' give further information.— Cr. Munns urged that, all the circumstances be detailed to the: Mini star and the exceptioni ally advantageous offer the Council had -received, — Cr. Ball t -Send/-. him the offer. ■—The voting was equal, and • the Mayor ;: declared the • airteaidmettt lost: ! Cr. Wauchop moved as a > further • amendment that the Coiiiicil shoujd, fall m with the suggestion :bf the Finance Minister* Attd accept his suggestion that • this was no time for the expenditure, of this large sum of mphey. — Cr. Tucker seconded. — Cr. Munns : The same old two opposing it. He would oppose this , further amendment— Or.. WJldish endorsed the- remarks of tliV previous speaker, -arid ( declared, they : had no right •to attempt, to "turn, down'" the tramway m this way.— Cr. Wauchop, after further discussion, said'that r the tramway negotiations had been m progress almost .every day. for. a, fortnight, and^he was informed by the town -clerk that ; no agreement had .been sighed. If they 1 ; eoiild not arrive at an agreement m a fortnight, and there was all, thja trouble before an agreement was obtained, then hpw much litigation would, there be during the three;years of, the agreement.?— On going to the vote Or. Waiichop's amendment waß negatived, and the Mayor's motion to supply the Finance Minister with further' information -was carried. ' PROPOSEp . AGREEMENT. Subsequently, the .following letter (accompanied by voluminous correspondence and two proposed agreements) was received from Messrs. Chrisp and Coleman, borough solicitors:— - v - ' '"■' "We i, have now to report to you the • the progress of the negotiations m this matter. After several long days' con.sultatibns and discussions we have arrived at a tentative agreement with Mr. Lysnar, subject to confirmation' by the Council. During the ! course of the negotiations we thought it proper to -write to Mr. Lysnar ana place on record the position. W& enclose copies' of our letter to -him and his ''reply thereto. In several statements made therein by Mr. Lysnar, especially as regards the legal position, we werel and are unable to agree, but with a fair and reasonable (amount of "give and take" we have finally drafted two documents, which we forward herewith, and commend same to your most careful attention. For your guidahcei m legal matters we have to inform and advise you shortly on the following heads : '1) You and you only can apply for the authorising order, and you must prepare the~specifications and "plans, and, generally speaking, comply with the requirements of the Tramway Act, 1968 and tho 'numerous provisions of the^ second .schedule to that Act, «nd you must rememb'p.r that the Council 1 is" primarily re.sponsible For tbo compliance with .'those, conditions and the completon of the order. OF course any assistance Mr. Lynar can give you to obtain the order •.-mid be qnite proper. Youi* own cuir- # ineer should prepare specification*. (2) ' x s regards, payment, Mr. Lysnar intends to ask you to alter i>he condition we have drawn, namely clause 12, m the case. of day labor" al* any rate, to relax the condition; He will contend that it can onto affect onß hundred or two hundred pounds at the 'outside. If this were so it would be a small matter m bo large a contract for him to shoulder—and not worth bothering about — but it is not so. It will rim into a large sum of money. Moreover, you are entirely bound by the statute and must keep back 25 per cent, for thirty days and the payments can on]y be made as the work progresses and is parsed 'by the responsible party. The reason for this is obvious, that is that had Vorkmatiship will" not be paid for and because the statute provides for it. Mr. liysnar isv-<[uite 'safeguarded under clause 14 if he cannot get a subcontract. (3) We are of opinion it wopld be 'legally unsafe to spend any. of tbo money m hand without; (a) complete compliance with order No." 1, or (b) consent m some form or another or that Government officials allojv an abandonment of the same (vide clauses 44, 45 and 46 of the order No. 1 as to the Council's responsibility). In applying for. the order all the facts> should be made known to the department. It is improper to ignore the order and divert the moneys raised ! for that purpose m another direction, ■aiiid it. 'is idle to argue among, other things that 'the money was not raised for' the Grey' street route. If the Grey street route could be left out then it follows that any or of the other routes could also have been left out, and this argument is untenable. It is true that at the poll" and m the voting paper' no particular route was apparently specified, yet once the Order-in-Council (which did and does specify the routes) was granted, it became imperative on the Council's part to follow the same. We doubt very much whether the Governor-ih-Council would see fit under the circumstances to grant a revoking order. Moreover, the Council has a duty to peiv form towards the ratepayers of the whole borough (and particularly t& the ratepayers m Victoria Township and vicinity) to complete this part of tho scheme before attempting to divert the moneys m other directions m expending it outside of the borough upon districts not' contributing towards the repayment of the loans. We think m such a case : that the 'Council would lay itself open to legal proceedings atsthe'suit.of"any ratepayer who was injured if this were done. (4) speaking, the , Council apparently has ,no right to delegate ira authority 1 - to -construct! any. tramway until an authorising order has been ob- • tamed (vide section 9 of the Tramways Act, 1908). In the notice, however, required- to be given by : clause 12 of the second schedule the terms and conditions of any intended delegation is to accompany the plans and other documents (vide clause 30 of section 14 of the Act, 1910). Therefore, to" legally protect the Council against any contingencies we ]>a\fe;-.inserted a condition giving it" tho right to cancel the intended delegation if , for any reason (sucl? aa the ..department insisting tipon terms involving expenditure which tha Council cannot incur or docs not feel justified m incurring) it becomes inexpedient to proceed with the work. This condition is to he carefully considered and compared with tho right insisted upon by Mr. Lysnar ,to abandon ' tho tramway running contract if the bridges are not made available within twelve months from* date .of the order. (5) It is ' proposed to ask - for an order to run the trams right out to the Haaamatua creek. Apparently the money m hand will not take them that far, and the Council, under the usual form of the order, may incur liability by way of penalty for. not performing what it has asked to have right to perform (vide causes .45, and 46 of the order). Would i I it 'not be" wiser for the ■ Council to apply i only for the distance it can provide for, leaving it open to apply for extension later on. Naturally the contractor "would object to enter into the running contract if this were done, as the earnings would, ■be materially diminished and his liability correspondingly increased; nevertheless, tjbe Council .mast carefully consider, , its legal position. Of. course on this head another poll misfit be, taken, . and if successful a* fresh loan raised is possible to meet the difficulty. This is for the Council to decide. (6) As regards i clause 1 (d) and (c) provided for the ' supply of rolling stock the Council must

deal with this and decide if it is what they desiro. (7) In reference to time of completion wo wish to draw your attention toftthe working of the contractor's saving condition, namely, 'exigencies of the war or shortage of shipping.' This, m tho way of supply of material, including labor, will about cover anything and, m the way the contracts are drawn, would practically excuse any delay. We recognise vis matter of fact, that it is only fair to any contractor, m the pKesont state of affaii'B, to be bo protective ; but, sis In such a ease, the might at any stage bo stuck up and earning liquors jJpstpom'c! indefinitely, the Uouncii .should itako thjfl into" consideration before binding itself to fchtt Vxpeilditu.ie, dnti Hi ore especially, as .■tlreaciy pointed iiiU', as Mr. Lyßjiav has lakei) good, care to prblect hiniftelf by the twelve mdnths' clauso m his running contract. Summed up. if the Council still decide to proceed with the work we strongly advise that it carefully considers the questions we have raised which are shortly : (a) Preparation of plans and specifications; (b) insistence of retention of 25 per cent, of contract moneys ; (c) completion of order Xo. 1 at any rats as regards Grey street ; (d) stipulations, as to right to abandon if onerous conditions are imposed by the department or for any other reason : (c) obtaining' order before making any deleRat ion 1 ;' (f)SdviskbjHty. of applying for limited ordoi* only- (?) consideration of timo fov completion; and (h) consent of Finance Minister." COUNCIL'S DISCUSSION. After the town clerk had read a considerable aniountof the correspondence on the subject Cr. " Munns questioned the advisability of proceeding further, councillors expressing doubt Tvhefcher they understand the same. - ; The Mayor, referring to the plans and specifications, said that at a fuHher meeting that afternoon Mr Lysnar had a lot of:details drawn out. He. (the Mayor) suggested' these bo handed to Mr. Armstrong, but, on going intoMhem further he found there were a lot of blanks as to quantities, T etc".-, '/tb^be filled m. He. had then suggested that Mr. Lysnar and himself should go to Wellington to see Mr. Holmes, Engineer-in-Chief, but on thinking it 'b'ver-ne (the Mayor) thought it should be handed to the^borough engineer and Mr: Holmes. The latter could then refer the) matter to Mr. Armstrong I and •> the borough engineer to' draw out \i\\i necessary particulars. Mr. Lysnar, his Worship added, had agreed to- J the Council's retention of 25 per cent, of the contract mdney, this being a matter of law and one that they could nob get over. "■' ' ' Cr. Wauchop pointed out that the whole matter was dependent tipon getting the permission 'of' the- Minister of Finance. The Council might spend a lot of further time with Mr.Jjysnar, but as some councillor's knew nothing of the terms suggested. in the proposed. contract would it not be better to hold the matter over until they got the reply from the Finance Minister, and m the meantime suspend all negotiations with Mr. Lysnar? This would give councillors . time to peruse the documents* These protracted negotiations with the solicitors were running into a lot of money. Personally, m moving to refer the question; to the solicitors/ and the sub-committee, he thought it would only take one day. Councillors: A week. • The Mayor : One month. Cr. Wauchop, continuing, said they might go on indefinitely heaping up costs against the loan. If these negotiations come to nothing he questioned whether the Council could pay them out of the loan, but would have to meet it out of. revenue. He had thought the negotiations would only go on one day, and that if Mr. Lysnar did not reach signing 7 point that it would be dropped. He understood; they were as far off as over, and there was no prospect of Mr. Lysnar signing. It had 'been gointf on Tor a fortnight;* and yet- waß.jiofc signed. He had no idea what the cost of keeping their solicitors and their office 6l(ifl; going day after day would be. ('r. Muims said as a- member of the committee they had done a great deal, and iv.hether he gave a week or a month he did not care as long as' 'they' Reached finality. At. the" meeting a nretek before ? they had cleared tip ' a' lot e.F misunderstanding, but got to "the position that they coiild hot agree { o the Council conceding the retention of the 25 per cent. They could get no further, but nbw Mr" Lvsnar had agreed, to that. It seemed to him Mr. Lysnar : had waived all obiecions, and it had come down ilo this that be insisted upon the Grey street line being cut out. He was almost to the signing point, and was particularly anxious to co on with the work. Tho Mayor said the solicitors were em- ! nhVtic respecting Grey street section. Grey street was not on the old voting paper, but Mr. Lvsnar said Wainui was.They turned up Mr. Heath's report, and: found that there was. only four miles provided for, so that knocked Wainui out of that. ' ~ Cr. Munns asked why. they should not continue further, and if tbey could get Mr. Lysnar to. agree to include Grey J p.treet section (which must be a payable proposition) the CbiincU need not demand' so much of Wainui. They could cut out the Park extension, having done as far as Lytton road, and they could go to he borough boundary at Whataupoko. He believed m a little "give' and take," and m the event of tho Finance Minister giving his consent then they ! would be ready to go on with it. , -If not, then the tiling would N3roj*s. Why not continue and complete nogotTatioh*?. If the Counoil approved it could let them finish negotiations. The whole thing depended' on the Finance Minister: It they dropped the negotiations they would lose the thread. 'He believed m view of the honest and liberal' way Mr. Lysnar had met -theni arid their demands, that he would agree, to the Grey -street line and that he would finally agree. Cr. Wildish coirimerided the Mayor on the paifts he had tiken over the matter. At *the meeting tbey had held that day (yesterday) good work was done, and more than any of them exacted. The 25 per cent, retention' had been the stumbling block, but H'e'Vas happy to be able to say that Mr. L'yshar had now waived' his objection to it. Grey, street he was against, but Tie (the speaker) believed it •would be a payable proposition. He believed Wainui would also be a payable proposition! Cr. Wauchop: If or whom? Cr. Wildish: For the borough. They only had, to take otbfer places, and where they. had a line to the beacji it, was the best paying proposition of the whole line. He. referred toWanjjq,nui. ■and.b.o believed that when they had the trams going '.n Wainui it would be the sam^. It was said there were no houses there, but he remembered when there were no houses at Gonville and Castlecliff, and what had been the T^psult|of ."the ttamS there? Cr*- Wauchop: You see where tho profit' ia. '' ' '* ' '

, Cr. Wildish objected to any ihshiurt"tions. As to the Order-in-Couricil the Government might amend that. He urgod the negotiations should go on, and that there should be a little "give and take." The* *Mnyor : No more "give."' It is "take" now for us. Cr. Wildish said they did not want to harass Mr. Lysnar. Referring to the specifications, Or. Wildish said Mr. Lysnar was prepared to take Mr. Holmes' specifications, and had roughed out his ideas, and th?so wanted to be. fixed up. lie (tho speaker) agreed that the plans and nileciHcations should be submitted: 'to Mi 1 . Holmes and carried onl; imclrcr the borough enginem-. Hn li.id fshoivu them only that day how litt writiM givo iluuu seven incites. moro roncretp by laic-hig itout of the founilntionH, * aittl .-putting il< around the base. He (Cv. Wiidish) would agiye to any othrr councillor going on tlio committee. 'Mr. X»ysnar wafi-'out to give them the benefit of the extpnsion. If the Finance Minister tabooed it, well they would be- "out of court." He was satisfied .that with a little more time they would get the matter arranged. Mr. Lysnar, told him if he got on well ho would do it m five months: The majority of the obstacles had been knocked out and thore was fairly plain sailing now. Mr. Lysnar .had climbed down considerably. Cr. Wildish suggested Cr. Wauchop sb'ptrld' so on the committee. '- Or.- l Waucno'p ; A* - fortnight. No chance. . ..-■■• Cr. Miller" concurred with Qv. Wauchop. They now had their solicitors' opinion! If they cpiild get the Grey street section, good .and well. They all ;knew Mr. Lysnav, :: and. personally he knew it wotild take some time to get a settlement, but if they got one on the basis of, £27)000 the "Council would be satisfied! He had no objection to meet Mr, Lysnar as long as rib further legal expenses were incurred. The Mayor said he was interested m Grey street section m this way.: He was m rthe chair when the second route was carried and that line. was stipulated. The public was given to understand that line would be put down, and consequently it would not be fair now to go outside the borough before Grey street was completed. If the negotiations were Jto go on he would most strenuously oppose the dropping of Grey street, because it would be most unfair not fe> do Grey street "first. If it "was left out, residents of Victoria Township, he stated, would have ".no chance of carrying a ,poll for Grey street by themselves. He was going, to fight to keep Grey \treet section m, because it was only ripfht and fair.. . Oiv Mouat said' Mr. Lysnar first proposed to undertake the contract of supervision. He' (the speaker) had moved that Mr. Lysnar be thanked, and that the Council do ' the work " Jhemselves. Reading through the agreement he believed that that waa what would happen m the end. Proceeding, he referred to the seven points raised by the solicitors. He personally had bee"n the first to move on the Council for the extension of the Whataupoko section,. which was the only one that would bring the trams tof'a paying point. ' If the Council was going to extend, the trams to Mangapapa, Te Hapavß and Wainui'^ then those districts : |hould raise a 'loan', but before entering into- any agreement with MV'Lysnar they should first see if the rate-oayers 'would sanction such extensions. "* A Councillor : . If the borough did it they would never do it for £27,000. The Mayor said therei was one point m the proposal she wished to point out. If the Council obtained an Order-in-Council to lay the trams to Hamanatua creek (just beyond Mrs. W. Cooper's residence, Wainui), Mr. Lysnar, under the terms of the agreement, might turn round and say he was unable to cub-let the contract or undertake the work by day labor, and , tho Council would be faced with a' penalty to complete the work provided for m the Order-in-Coun 7 cil — they would be left m a difficult hole. Cr. Mouat said ho objected to any engineer outside the Council's engineer drawing up tho plans and specifications. The Council was establishing n precedent by asking the contractor to draw up the plans arid specifications for the job. Councillors; (in -chorus) : No we are not. Cr. ft(x>uafc "submitted that they were under the i •proposal. ■■"--, ,Cr. Wildish remarked that Mi*. Lysnar had the draft of the specifications m his hand. and)'they were for submission t6 Mr. Holniesl Tffe" Mayor : We don't agree to those 'sffecificatidrts. ■ ' s ■'"'"■' 4 <Ov. ! \yiuchc-p •fo-rmally moved; that the .matter be left over until the Council, got the F^npnCe I^inister's'decisioh 1 . He uvgedori" councillors 'to take time to con I'sider' thie tiiatt'er. " He' wias not moving that' with the'ihteriti6'ti*df bl6ckin£ thfe neeotiatipns. If it taken' a fortnight aiid even then they 1 liad rt6t reached finality, what could "tl|ey : expect 'after? After emphasisfiig the heav^' legal costs being incu-rred,* he : said 'if r Mr. Lysnar througK taking tho 'contract got , into difficulties it would, only lead to litiga,tion. 'But his rear reisdn m moving the motion was to get an opportunity to look over what they 1 ' were , proposing: to put .before Mr. Lysnar ifco'rsign.''. "Proceeding^ he pointed out the danger of the clause allowing Mr. Lysnar to withdraw if h^ could not sub-let the cqptract. 1 Cr. Munns i The Mayor says if this. 25 per cent, clause comes out that clause comes otit, too. ■ '■■.*■•>•"*• • Cr. Wauchop : I would be strongly on- i posed to letting & contract where ho, is limited to tTSe v expenditure; of £27,000. Continuing, the speaker said jthey Wfjre giving Mr. Lysnar thY right to sub-lot I the contract, jbnt-jf did not coyer it with the rails m stock th^n. he coiild withdraw. ' . , ' : .'.' ' Cr. Wildish: The clause is deleted now. ." ■ *" ":■ ' After further argument Cr. Wauchop remarked he* did not understand the suggested agreements as he had hot had the /opportunity of going^fullv into it, but |to v 'oontinye negotiations they were running into a lot. of expense.' If they wdre I not careful tc-" s get r that clause \ deleted they would put Mr.. Lysnar m a posi■tion to get out'of the contract. "■• ■*>Thiß Mayor: 'That clause will comfe out. pr. Ball said he thought they^ were as far off as ever with the negotiations. The whole thing 'was. surrounded by conditions and loop-holes. The^ Council should have had thei, direct opinion of its engineer, but under these proposals the Council, he feared, would lose all' control. If they got the' Ovder-in-Council, and Mr. 1 - Lysnar could riot sub-let, then he j could \vithdraw. Councillbrs': " That clause is to come out. ' Or. Ball .': B*ut it is' here m the agreement submittedto us to-night. Cr. Munns : You have the word of the Mayor and committee. \ The* Mayor: -Yes, that will I . come put. Cr. Wawshop : I think it will take a fortnight. to get it out. ; •..'•.". Cr. Ball said 'that if Mr. Lysnar would not sign up they should drop the proposals and do it themselves. Or. Oman concurred jrith Cr. Wauchop. They should not spend any more money over it, but . shorild wait until they had tho reply from the Ministor of Finance. They weie- only wasting their time. Ho submitted that if Mr. Lysnai* could do the job; theuHhe Council coitld If Mr. Lysnar could expediter getting the cars then tho Council could. *.*•' lX " Councillors : No, we can't, i : : ' Cr; Ohian: Why? Cr. Murtns*: I'm not going to say. Cr. Oiridn: : Yd'u should drop all that. If Mr. I»ysnar can jdo.' it;»v surely the Council' can?"," -* ' ' V' If Mr. ;Lysnar has goli p- bit of in-* f orma/tfori up his slep^e siirelr he will put us m the wa^of/ getting it? He supported the things being Jef^ over to get 'the . Mmißter'B reply, tariff, ii. that *■ was favorable' le/b ; the. ;dp \ t\je -work. 1 ! Cfr. !> MUnn^ ; expi v es^ ai councillors; ypckihg the~rt&gotM*ions. ( . - ,Cr. Munns: You say waittandfgetf the reply of the Minister. Supposing Mr. Lysnar drops , the nego^tions.-^ For £37,t300 ! Itt^'iysnar was '*&b'nig -to idy 'every rail-eiieiy^h'aM m yard and the Cotincil f €ould riot 'c]a that, and besides that' ; Mr. Lyanar was going- to guarantee* therii against loss; It was

suicidal not to bring him to the pay- ! ing point. They should not defer it. ! They could put m another committee. They were breaking negotiations just at the finishing point. Continuing, he emphasised what the Council was getting Vw £27,000. Mr. Holmes had to agree to- the specifications, arid that would pro- j tect the Council. They were not accept- • ing Mr. Lysnar's specifications. Those he (the speaker) agreed to were tho I specifications of the Council's engineer or approved of by him. They could eliminate Mr. Lysnar's specifications. They had got rid of the obnoxious clause, and why hang it up? Cr. Wauchop : I don't suggest that, only delaying for a fortnight. Or. Munns stressed the fact that tho Council had given the committee power to sign and seal the agreement, and they had not cone that far. Or. Wauchop (Quoting from th<A minutes) : "Approved by the borough solicitors." Cr. Munns- urged that to hang up things at that stage was .most unwise. If they broke off negotiations Mr.. Lysnar would probably think of something else. (Laughter.) *He was brought up now to the signing point. The Mayor said before the negotiations went any further the specifications should bo drawn Tip. Mr. Lysnar had his based on some "airy" calculations, but the Public Works Department might say they wanted something else. He thought" the borough engineer should go to Wellington and see what tho Public Works Department want, and get- Mr. Holmes to authorise Mr. Armstrong to act for him here. Tho two engineers ! could then draw up a^draffc of what the '■ department -would require. Otherwise the Council was getting the agreement signed up, and they were i then hitching on the specifications,. Cr. Mouat' declared ithat Mr. Holmes would not draw up the specifications. He would only satisfy himself they were on safe lines. The Government did not care what was put m the foundations as long as the tramway was safe. They would not he safeguarded by the Gov- : eminent from a maintenance' point of view, only from the standpoint of public safety. He suggested the _ borough engineer might bei able to advise them as to the procedure. Mr. Slinger, (the borough engineer, on being asked, said that to his way of thinking the Council was going "stern first." There was not one man sitting at the Council table who could say what this proposed contract really meant. He aslted if the copy produced ~w.as the last agreement. ; Cr. Munnß: There is no agreement. Wet are trying to arrive, at an agree- ■ ment. The Engineer : Well, what is all this paper? (Langhter.) . Cr. Munns: That is the proposal we did not accept. The Mayor : What w© want to know is the procedure. The engineer said the procedure m • works of this kind was that the engineer first interviewed the Public Works De- ' part-merit and gave him an outline of • the proposals. The Public Works ' Department engineer then asked for certain things to be done. Plans and specifications were drawn up and the whole thing was prepared m sequence. Continuing, the eneineer 6a?d be had discussed the 1 job with Mr. Armstrong. Cr. Ball asked if the Ojuncil was m committee. The Mayor requested tbe press not to report tbe engineer's statement regarding the interview detailed. Continuing. -the engineer declared tho Council would have to spend £10,000 on road work between Fitzherbert street and Bell's ©tore before they Bpent a. penny on tbe trams. ■ • • . | Cr." Munns : Supposing we agree thnt Mr. "Lysnar accepts tbe plansj and specifications prepared by you m conjunction witb the Public Works Department? The Engineer : Yes, that is tbe startin^ point. . ■ Cr. M"nns suggested tbe borough eng- t ineer. Mr. Holmes, and Mr. Lyftnaf ' should confer and ngree on tbe plans ftT>fl specifications. Ther Engineer: You are asking me to deal on . enaineerinc .questions witb a non-professional man, and T am not gointr to. ' I Cr. Wildisb pointed out that Mr. Lys. nar was T»repnred tp gto to WflJlinorton to Confer witb "Mr. Holmes and tbe borough engineer. TTe f sit tbe Council was poing to thwart the whole work of tbe committe*. and t.bnt if they did riot continue ne"ot- ; ati^Tiß Mr. Tyvsnar would draw out. The Mayor- Raid he conld not spend another fortnight on the* negotiations. / Cr. "WiHisli urtred that tb.« committee s!?oiiM Weep m itoueb witb Mr. LvsnarL Wbnt would Rnit Mr. Holmes should P"?t tbe Conrietl's engineer. The j?rv»atfißt obstacle bad been orot over, but if tbe motion was carried it would shelve it. He mnvpd as «m amendment that tbe co'm'jfpitt A c. continue nefrotiations. Tbe Mayor : Is that not a direct nega•tiv«v? Or. Mouafc asked where the £10,000 for road work was to, come from. Cr. Mnnns : Mr. "Lysnar says be can do it. ' ' ' , A councillor, pointed out the roads were to he Mt "m tbe ?nme order as now. Tho Encririeer : He ig to put the tram line down to permanent level, but what .-'-^,(. *.T, e s i^ ea o f the Toad? Cr. Mlitinß : lam not sointr to act on the onrnmittee after what has been said to-tiigbt. Cr. WiWisb emphasised the dlfficnU i worlc they T^ad effected m tbn fortniq-bt. | Cr. Waucbop : Sice tbtj difficult "fish" ymi bad to catch. ' ■' On poing to tbe vote Cr^ Wildish's nmendment to continue negotiations was negatived by 4 votes to 5, and the motion of Cr. Waucbop (to defer action Pending tbe Minister's reply) was carried. \ . Cr. Monat nrered that tbe Council's pngTneer sbonld proceed to Wellington i to confer -with Mr. Holmes and draw up plan* and specifications. Cr. Wildieb seconded pro. forma, but vtopjH that Mr. Lysnar should confer witb them. Cr. Mouat. objected. It was for tbe oncineer to draw up plans and specifications, not tbe contractor. The Mayor said^ tbe boroucb engineer i conld arrange with Mr. Holmes to authorise . Mr. Armstrong tn act. That woTild ■ further matters while they were awnitintr- tbe Minister's decision. ' Cr. Munns opposed tbe migff«»stion. on t.ho. score of expense. 'Councillors bad I objected to tbe paltry money m clinch tbe nerpement with Mr. Lysnar, but now proposed spending money to send tbe engineer to Wellinerton. • Cr. Monat pointed out that they could \ do nothing till they got the plans and sp^cifinationa. . Cr. Muntiß Raid he saw the trend of things. Cr. WiMisb : X am satisfied they do not want tbe trams. . O. Waiicbop asked what was tbft ob''Tt.iori to RTisnendintf negotiations f or a fortniebt. If dealincrwitb any reasonable . proposal tbev conld pick up tbe thread j n fnrtnieht bence as readily as to-mor- j row morninir. ) O. Wildiab ! I am satlefiprl PonnoilloTta ■ rlo not. want these trams. T tbink it is •nos*t deplorable after the time we put into it to r snatch it away just at tbe last moment. Tho Mayor explained that the en?- • ineflr's visit would help them. To save +be expense tb«y miirbt wTito to Mr. fTolmes. and nslc if be would allow Mr. . Armstrong to act for him. Cr. Mouat amended bis motion to that pffaot, wan acrreecl to.^ j Cr. Tucker siid tbe romm'itteo bad no- j +bin«r to be disappmnted .ibo-nt. THrv '"id nothing to feel sore over, and if nnvthin«? came of it, it was a result of their endeavorß. "M"nnnn intltnaterT tbat V. bad h** to riwl°ct bis own business, and b»> cnnid not "Hi lonffflr on Gb« comm?ttPß ; Tf tbev \rnn+«d tbe committee + o continue they fn'ild P"* r»n «omeone else. O. Wildish' said be tnrik *M Rime vipw. • Councillors w<»re not w^+b tbom'. "«d ?t, w"i oplv waptincr *ime. Th«>v bad t,v'*«d to Ao rror>A work and crot no thanks. Councilors : Yes you did. ! Tho IVfnvor said b<» wonld contimift tbe no?r>t ? at?ons pffreonally.