FASt COAST NATIVE LAND BAOARD BILL.

Poverty Bay Herald, Volume XXIII, Issue 7653, 11 June 1896, Page 3

FASt COAST NATIVE LAND BAOARD BILL.

PUBLIC MEETING IN THE OITY RINK. A: Public meeting was held in the City Hink last night for the purpose of considering the advisability of supporting a Bill to be introduced into the House of : Representatives during the coming session ; for the purpose of bringing about some > change whereby certain locked-up Native . lands might be thrown open for settlement. There was a fairly representative attendance. His Worship the Mayor (Mr Townley) presided, and briefly explained the objects of the meeting. He said that at the . present time Mr Carroll and Mr Wi Pere were acting as trustees for the Natives in a number of estates, and they found that ib was very difficult to transact the business under the trust under which they held the estates. To meet the difficulty a Bill had been drafted under which a Board was to be appointed who would take charge of the different blocks of lands and manage them in a much more beneficial manner than it was possible at present for them to be managed. He himself was of opinion that, as the people were not asked to provide anything or to pay any taxes, and as the measure had for its object the throwing open of large areas of land for settlement, they should all be glad to give it their support. (Applause.) Some thought the present machinery was sufficient, but from what he could gather from men who were thoroughly acquainted with the whole matter ib was evident that it was not sufficient. Legislation of some kind was required, and the Bill that was before the meeting had been prepared for the purpose of removing as much as possible the hindrances to successfully dealing with these lands that at present existed, and for bringing in a better system than was at present available. The Bill would go before Parliament, and would there be subjected to the close scrutiny of both Houses. If it did not meet with the approval of the meeting at present they might depend upon ib that before the Bill passed the House it would be a workable measure. What the promoters wanted at the present time was the support of the Poverty Bay people in order that the passage of the Bill . might be facilitated through Parliament.' The trouble sought to be overcome had been a stumblingblock in the district for years past. People would be very glad to settle upon some of the lands, and if the present Bill would be the means of opening them up .then it would be a step in the right direction. The Hon. Mr Carroll oughl ' to bp in a position to know' whether the existing provisions were sufficient or not, and he (Mr Townley) had questioned him very closely on the subject, and he had Baid most emphatically that legislation of Borne kind was absolutely necessary to throw the lands open in a manner that would be beneficial. He found as trustee that he could not do the work as it should be done. The trustees were tied down by legislation, and it took them a very long time to complete any business transaction. Mr Townley then called upon Mr Bees to explain the purport of the Bill. Mr W. L. Rees, who was received with applause, explained that the Bill was a private Bill, and would be introduced into the House by Mr Wi Pere. It did not directly concern tbe interests of the public, Inasmuch as it gave no power to levy taxes. Ib was a measure affecting the property of private individuals. In the first instance ib was restricted to lands held by Messrs Carroll and Wi Pero as trußtee3 representing the Native owners for properties previously held by the New Zealand Native Land Settlement Company. Mr Sees then narrated the steps seriatim, in the progress of affairs connected with these lands from the time they were assigned by the Natives to- the Native Land Settlement Company to the present time, a statement of which is given in the preamble of the , Bill. Messrs Carroll and Wi Pere had .had control of the lands for four years, and had been adding to the trust. A few days ago 180,000 acres had been passed through the Native Land Court in their name. The trust property at the present time was practically unused. About 20,000 acres were in use, having sheep on it, but the whole of the remainder was unproductive and useless. There were some settlers here and there, but the great bulk of the 400,000 acres was practically useless and locked up. The object of the Bill war to open that land for settlement. ' That could not bo done by Messrs Carroll and, Wi Pere because they had not, for one thing, the necessary business knowledge, and for another they had not the time to devote to the work thst was necessary, and above all they had not the money to enable them to go about the work properly. They could not borrow money at anything like the same rate that . Europeans could. A Board created by Parliament could go to the money market and raise a loan for the purpose of bringing these lands into utilisation on much .. better terms than Messrs Carroll and Wi Pere possibly could, and the object of the Bill was to create a Board. The Natives had insisted, and the Validation Oourt would insist, that the trustees should be members of the Board— a corporate Board under, and practically sanctioned by, the Parliament of New Zealand. The preamble showed that the objects proposed could not possibly be performed by any machinery whatever except by the special provisions of the Bill. The facts which were 'stated in the preamble were true in every particular. The Committee to whom the Bill had been submitted had amended the preamble to some extent because spme of the members thought that certain of the facts were not in tho knowledge of the people. The object of the Bill was first of all to create a Board to consist of six persons, namely Hou. J. Carroll, Messrs Wi Pere, H. C. Jackson, W. H. Tucker, J.P., John Townley, J.P., and a member to be appointed and re- , movable by Governor-in-Council, who was to be chairman of the Board, and who would have a deliberative and a casting vote. It might be said that the constitution of the Board w«s nob satisfactory, but Mr Rees said to appoint a Board of six that would give satisfaction to everybody would bo an impossibility. What Mr Wi Pere said waa that this was a Board the members of which were known to the Natives, and it <vns a Board in which the Natives had confidence. It was c, Board which the Natives could approaoh and get any information thoy desired, and it was a Board which could ■ visit the Natives in. their various homes ' and explain from time to time what was being done and what it was proposed to ' do. The Bill went on to vest tin tho Board the lands enumerated in ."the schedule, consisting of 128,000 acres. "About 20,000 acres of this land was being used at the present time and was producing a revenue of L 3200 a year, so that if the whole of the 128,000 acres of this first lob were utilised it would be producing a revenue of six times the amount. Butrib' would not only be producing a revenue. Ib would be affording homes ' for settlers, increasing the wealth of the ' colony, and doing good In many other [ ways. Why should 128,000 acres be locked up 1 The measure proposed to do away with that. It proposed to give \power to the Board, not only to borrow to : pay off tbe Estates Company, but to • borrow at a cheap rate. Messrs Carroll and Wl Pere had to pay an average of about 7 per cent, for tbeir money, whilst 7 tier Board would be able to go to the market and raise it at 3|per cent. advantage of such a course would be -Very great. The Bill also provided that

|||P|fii£yer- there; were any other Maori the "owners, of which desired ||||n%td'?J)e managed , by the Board they ; be-allowed to .being them under Wm§g^ Board; -Besides the 128,000 acres ||Mct.&]s' in/Messrs Carroll and Wi Pero by |||itie'\iruat'' there were 150,000 «cres which : ¥r^.tive .owners would at once brinp the operation of the Board. But p^fejeyond that there was the expression of ||t|;feeHng ; by Maoris along the Coast that if Igliicli ft: Board uuder legislative protection |§t^Bj.appoiuted the whole of the lands on l^tiierfEaßt 'Coast would be thrown open. §g..Ttie ; t>hiy. thing that, waa keeping GisKi'bonieback was the locking up of the |fij4aori" lands. The Bill provided the USl^m'&dy; • of that, and the settlers *js.i»ere not asked to contribute one penny j|. towards the attainment of that desirable *$it>s&Y~-Mr Rees only asked them to examine J^Ttte* conditions of the Bill, and if they pithough it to the interests of the district to a^jgivejit ' their support. If they did not "ygtfifet itf .beneficial then they need not > %^BUpp6rbit. ' Daring the last few days the ;•'■ Bill '"'had' been discussed before Judge £ Gudgeon, who had made many suggesK Jtions, and Mr Lysnar had also suggested ■f-j: many alterations, which in his (Mr Rees') ij!. opinion were valuable, and they would bo in the Bill. But not one iA> single principle of the Bill had been Judge Gudgeon would send down w -fk> report to Parliament with a copy of the ■; "Bill and the amendments which he thought ;j:\Oughl; to be made in it. Judge Gudgeon ;|Wd Btated in the Validation Court that sSfjth'e only way'to settle these lands was by , \such a Bill as the one proposed. He said :'..;. that ho .would not allow money to be jy; borrowed by Messrs Carroll and Wi.Pere because they were not business men and .'■' had not the necessary time. Such a busi- .- ness must be managed by business men. .-_--. Mr Rees did nob think any safeguard had ;* "been left out which could reasonably be ■ adopted to ensure justice to the Maoris. I The Bill offered to the general public a / chance to get a cut in at the lands on fair s.':" terms. The Bill had many provisions ; which were not of as much interest to j V Europeans as to the Natives, and these he /.need not. dwell upon. He Tvould, howi; ever,- mention clause 14, ' which provided "••.-for.7sper cent, in area of the land held by ;;: the Boatd being thrown open for settle- :., meht as speedily as possible. Mr Seddon, ""•^in conversation with him last year in /preference .to the Bill, objected that the : ■ State had no guarantee that the lands •- would not be closed up, or that the lands -'_" .would not be put into the hands of monov.polists. He (Mr Rees) said they would iußerb a clause that the land must be , for settlement. Mr Seddon re- .; plied "Put in 60 per cent." He (Mr Rees) said they would do more, they ' would put in 75 per cent. That had been ' done, and when the Board was set up they ' , must at once throw open 75 per- cent, of > the 180,000 acres, and when the other •' .lands were brought under the Board, making the area 400,000 acres, they must , -"; throw open 75 per cent, of that for public ' : settlement. What a difference that would •?• make . to this district. The survey, roadiog, and settlement would bring money and people into the district, and would . increase the value of things all round, and . that without increasing the rates by six- ' pence. It seemed to him ridiculous that Mr Wi Pere should have to ask for sup- " port to such a Bill. There was ono other ..'clause to which he wished to refer, and -thaS.was clause 9, which read as follows : — " . ■ " The Board shall be entitled to sot aside ' over and above all workiug expenses a per : centage of 10 per centum per aunum on the - \ net .revenue arising out of the properties ';.' hereby vested or hereafter to become vested ■ „ in it, which sum shall form a fund for the ./ "general benefit and advantage of Natives beneficially interested in the said Board and ita work, and shall also form a sinking fund for the redemption of the debentures issued | by the Board from time to time, and also an insurance fund for' aged and infirm Maoris -belonging to the said district, and for such other general purposes of utility as the District Committee hereinafter mentioned may determine at its annual meeting, to be held in February in each year." • Judge Gudgeon thought to have a committee for each block, such committee to ■ instruct how to deal with the lands. In .-'- conclusion, Mr Rees said that the other lands— lso,ooo acres -which were in -Messrs Carroll and Wi Pere's names, were not at present inoluded, but they would he brought under the Board immediately the Act passed, and behind those lands . were the bulk of the Maori lands on the East Coast. He hoped he had made tolerably clear, what the object and scope of the Bill was. The people were not asked to help on anything that was for the ' benefit of private parties behind. The . whole of the facts were before them, and -they would be before the legislators. For • 17 years Mr Wi Pere had been fighting for this, and the Bill waa only Mr Wi Pere's effort put into shape to carry out ■ v these objects in the interest of both races and in the interest of fair dealing between ..the Natives and Europeans in this district. (Applause). ~. - Captain Tucker said that at a meeting which was held a few weeks ago in the - Council Chambers, and at which a number ■ - of gentlemen were present, a committee ■ of sight or nine persons was elected to consider this Bill. The committee had had several meetings, and finally made _ their report;. The committee approved of the Bill, and the following resolution was passed ; — " This Committee having made '. enquiries into the circumstances alleged in the preamble to this Bill, report that ' . in their opinion the facts are truly stated, „ and the Bill, if passed into law as sub- - sequent!? amended by the Validation Court, would be advantageous to the . persons and the lands most nearly concerned, as well as to the whole of the ' district. Of the composition of the Board, the committee does not think it incumbent on them to offer any opinion." The reason for the latter clause was that it did not appear to the committee that it mattered who were the persons forming the Board. His own ■ name appeared on the Board, but it had . been pub there without his knowledge. . He would not take a siep forward to h*ve „ hid' name on the Board nor would he take one Btep backward to avoid it. He thought that the same was the case with the other gentlemen. Perhaps he regarded it more as his duty than most of them. It did not matter anything as to the . Committee who composed the Board so . long as they carried the Bill out in a just ' and proper manner. He proposed that the resolution which he had read as having - ' been carried by the Committee and passed r - at the last meeting of the Committee be adopted by the present public meeting. Mr W. F. Crawford (.aid he had much pleasure in seconding Che adoptiou of the Committee's report. He was not com- ■ patent to discuss Xhe Bill but he would ■a ■ like to give bis opinion as a resident, of ... Poverty Bay as to the advisability of such '~ ? a measure being carried out. He hud no ■ 'doubt that many present had hud the V same experience as himself with regard to :', 1 Native matters. They all knew that the 'man who tried to acquire .Native property •': from individual owners gave himself a job „ for life, and .then in many cases he came out penniless. He believed that putting such properties as we have on the East . -. 'JCoast - tangled up with private titles — in I"' the hands of a corporation as provided in .; the. Bill, would very much simplify .matters and enable a European to get a title' when he acquired land. Pro- :-;\ viously when a man hud paid his money S'sJi'ftc.-;WM! ■ applied to to negotiate with rN^ftftother, i party altogether, and perhaps :/j.\ buy/Out, the interest of a man who had .sirJ,beejnjyearß.iuthe grave. He hoped that Sgith^f^iH, or, at least the most essential teiiCie&turesV'.of it. would pass during the jjj^iSjjijalijg sesaiqn.. It did hot follow thab WspftiWf'r.lhv "'wbol© of the people of "" .'• ' ' ' iSiSSriV.V',-'* ~ •'

Poverty Bay agreed in the provisions of a Bill that the House of Representatives could pasa it. They were bound to cut it up and perhaps make a mess of it in its most vital parts. He hoped they would not do that but would puss it in suuh a manner as to enable them to make an end of unpleasantness iind difficulties that have taken place for tho last 22 years to his own knowledge. The vesting of tho estates in the hands of Messrs Carroll and Wi Pere was a move in the right direction, but as Mr Rees had said, those gentlemen hud not powers enough, and were hampqred and crippled, Vury probably if this measure was passed it would be found that more extensive powers wore still required to deal with the estate satisfactorily. Should such bo the case he would be found to favor the extension. Mr 0. Gray explained that as a member of the Committee he hud not been consulted or been asked to attend the latter meetings at which the Bill was considered. He received a notice for one meeting on the day after it was held. He had no doubt the Bill was satisfactory, but he was not in a position to say whether it was good or bad. He was sorry he could not give the resolution his cordial support. Mr Rees said he was sorry that Mr Gray had not been present at the meetings of the Committee. lie explained the nature of the workings of the Committee, and how it was Mr iirxy was not at the last two meetings. Mr Gray, however, should have exerted himsulf to see that the Committee did the work they were appointed to do. Dr lnnos said he agreed with the measure, and -hoped that it would be extended. Mr Townley, in putting tho resolution, said with reference to his name appearing amongst the members of the Board, that he knew nothing about ib until he saw it there. He had asked why his name was put there, and he was told it was becjuso he was nn old resident of the place, and knew the Natives, whilst he had had no dealings with Native landa. He would be quite willing to his name being taken off if there was any necessity. He did not care whether he was on or off. He thought it was right that Mr Wi Pere should be on the Board, nnd Mr Carroll, too, if he were not a Minister of the Crown, It was right, though, that the Natives interested in the Bill should have some cay as to who should constitute the Board. Captain Tucker said that it was Mr Carroll's wish that his name should be withdrawn from the Board. Mr Carroll had told him that as a Minister of the Crown it would be improper for him to accept a position on the Board. Even if his name was left on the Board, he said he was quite certain it would be struck out, and, morover, if it was left there it would only invite antagonism to the whole measure. Mr Tucker said he had pledged himself to Mr Carroll to see that his name was removed, and he recommended that that be done. Mr Rees agreed to this course. If afterwards the Europeans and Natives requested that Mr Carroll's name should be placed on the Board, Mr Carroll would : be willing, with the consent of Parliament, to be placed there. In reply to Mr Somerville, Mr Iteea | said that Mr Carroll's place on the Board j would be filled up by the Government, on the recommendation of Mr Wi Pere. Mr W. D. Lysnar said that in his official capacity ho was connected with a number of the blocks in question, and he had been eugaged in the Validation Court going through the Bill. The amendments made by that Court, he thought, had improved the Bill. Those amendments were iv the nature of protecting and safe-guarding the Native interests. If the Bill was passed by Parliament in tho form recommended by the Validation Court, it would no doubt be a great benefit to the district. He would suggest that whoever went forward on the Bill should see that it was altered as little as possible. Mr Townley thought that Parliament would surely have sufficient sense to keep the Bill in a workablo condition. (Laughter.) The motion on being put waa carried unanimously. Karaitiana Amaru objected to the Bill being called Wi Pere's Bill. It should be a Bill emanating from the people of the district. As it was, the Natives did not know what the Bill was about. They should be given some time to consider the Bill. If the Bill affected only the lands in the hands of Messrs Carroll and Wi Pere, it would be right enough, but even then he would have something to say. Another Native had an objection to the Bill because he thought it would have the effect of eating away their lands. The Chairman asked the Native whether hia lands were not already going away from him by ineuns of the heavy interest that had to be paid. After Mr Whinray had spoken a few words of cordial support to the Bill, Mr Dickson moved, " That in view of the great importance to this district of the opening of the largo areas of land held in trust by Messrs Carroll and Wi Pere, and of the other waste lands belonging to the Maoris upon the East Coast, this meeting respectfully asks all the local "bodies and organisations to pass resolutions to support Mr Wi Pere's Bill, and submit the same to the Chairman of the two Houses of Legislature, and that petitions be at once prepared and circulated through the district praying both Houses of Legislature to pass the I Bill into law." | Mr Lewis seconded the motion, which was carried unanimously. The meeting then terminated with a vote of thanks to Mr Townley for pre- | siding and giving the use of the hall.

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