N.Z. PARLIAMENT.

Otago Witness, Issue 1812, 13 August 1886, Page 11

N.Z. PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday. August 4.

REPLIES TO QUESTIONS. Mr O'CALLAGHAN asked the Minister of Public Works whether arrangements will be made for payment of the unemployed each week, instead of each f ortuight as at present. ' The Hon. Mr RICHARDSON said if he found that the request could be complied with without the employment of extra pay clerks, he would see that it was done. Mr SEDDON asked the Minister of Mines ■whether he will supply free of cost the several schools of mines in the colony with the report on the goldfields of the colony, together with the inspector of mines' report and Minister of Mines' Statement. The Hon. Mr LARNACH said instructions would be given to that effect. Mr SEDDON asked the Premier whether the Government would supply free of cost to various education bodies and school committees in the colony copies of the speech nride by Sir J R. Stout on " Education in the' colony of New I Zealand." Sir J. VOGEL said he agreed with the proposal, and if he found there were not sufficient copies of the speech printed he would consider •whether another 1000 should not be printed for circulation.

THE GOLD DUTY BILL. The Hon. Mr LARNACH moved— "That a committee be appointod to inspect the journals of the Legislative Council with relation to any proceedings upon the bill to repeal and reduce the export duty on gold, and to make a report to this House; the committee to consist of Messrs Pyke, Seddon, Guinness, and the mover." — Agreed to. DISCHARGING BILLS. Sir J. VOGEL moved that the following bills be discharged from the Order Paper : — Magistrates' Court Bill, Alienation of Land Bill, CodlinMoth Act Amendment Bill, Workmen's Wages Act Extension Bill, and Stock Driving Bill. — Agreed to. Mr O'CALLAGHAN moved that the Waimate Village Settlements Bill, which stood in Mr Steward's name, be discharged. He said his object in doing so was to enable him to move, in going into Committee of Supply, a motion to a similar effect as that contained in the bill. The motion for discharging the bill was put and lost on the voices. THE BABBIT PEST. The Hon. Mr TOLE moved the second reading of the Rabbit Act Amendment Bill, which he explained was to give effect to the report of the Rabbit Committee recently presented to the House. Mr COWAN supported the bill, and said if it was given effect to they would have more prospect of combating the evils from which the country had been suffering from rabbits. Mr BUCHANAN supported the bill. Mr LAKE thought the section for levying a rate was an unfair one. Mr LANCE pointed out that this particular clause was optional, and would only be brought into operation at the request of residents of localities. Sir J. VOGEL could not help thinking the committee had failed to deal with the question of doing away with the pest. He was not sure whether the introduction of stoats and weasels would not be a greater pest than the rabbits themselves, and he considered, from a scientific point of view, that the natural enemy of rabbits was the fox. He thought the best course was to get some capable person to go into the question scientifically, so as to ascertain whether rabbits could not be best destroyed by disease. He felt sure they should not too hastily introduce what the report called the natural enemies of rabbits, but he was not at all opposing the bill in the remarks he had made. Mr LANCE, as a member of the committee, agreed with what the Treasurer said. Since recommending the importation of stoats and weasels, the committee found there were many objections to the introduction of those animalsand they thought the Government should not import them too hastily; but with regard to ferrets, they should be introduced, as they were not destructive to lambs. He would ask the Government to encourage the introduction of those animals, and for the time to abandon stoats and weasels, which might hereafter prove very destru stive to the country. MrJ.M'KENZlEthoughtthebill did not carry out the recommendations of the committee, and: unless it was altered it would be opposed hy the committee. Mr G. F. RICHARDSON said the bill in its present form was very objectionable. He would suggest that counties and county councils should be substituted for rabbit districts, and he should endeavour in committee to get power put into the hands of local authorities. Mr HURSTHOUSE regretted that the bill was brought in at such a late stage of the session. Ho considered it would put an enormous power into the hands of owners of large blocks. • The best course to adopt, in his opinion, was simultaneous poisoning, and he said f erretß had done more harm than stoats or weasels. Mr DOWNIE STEWART thought one great defect in the present act was that the inspectors' powers was interfered with by local authorities of the district. If inspectors exercised their functions with more independence, the nuisance would not be so serious as it was at present. I He knew from his own experience in the South w that there was not so much energy displayed in the exterminating of rabbits as there should be. He should like to see some .form of payment by results adopted, so that the income of any particular person should depend on his efforts, and not by the year. He was sorry to see this bill bromght down at such a late period of the session, as it was of vast importance. The Hon. Mr TOLE said the evil was growing so fast that it should be dealt with as speedily as possible, and the desire of the Government was to pass as perfect a bill as could be framed. He intended to revise the bill before going into committee, and he would be glad to receive suggestions from members. The motion for the second reading was agreed to. THE WAIMEA PLAINS RAILWAY. The Hon. Mr RICHARDSON moved the second reading of " The District Railways Purchasing Act, 1885, Extension and Amendment Bill." He said papers had been laid on the table showing that correspondence had taken place regarding the purchase by the Government of the Waimea Plains railway. The matter had this session been referred to the Public Accounts Committee, which reported in favour of the purchase. The line was constructed by a private company to open up a large block of land well fitted for cultivation. He said tho line had cost the country altogether about £103,000, and explained at some length tho position of tho live, explaining that the bill was drawn up on the lines of last year's bill. Mr MONTGOMERY reviewed the evidence aken before the Public Accounts Committee.

He said it was shown by it that the commercial value to the country of the line was £97,000, and the total amount to be given by the colony for it was £102,000. He said the object of the bill was to relieve ratepayers from their engagements, as the company would only collect half the rates and the Government would pay the other half to relieve the ratepayers of £8000. He questioned whether it was a proper thing to relieve those ratepayers from engagements which they had made with their eyes open. It would be for the House to consider. He spoke at some length on the whole question. The House rose for the 5.30 adjournment. Evening Sitting. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr COWAN took exception to Mr Montgomery's remarks on the bill. He said the question of relieving the ratepayers referred to by Mr Montgomery was not now under discussion, as that had been settled by the bill of last year, except as to the amount. He appealed to the House to consider favourably the provisions of this bill, and he spoke on behalf of 350 of his constituents who were interested in this railway as ratepayers. As to terms of purchase, they had it in evidence that the commercial value of this railway was £97,000, including everything due to the company. If to that were added the rates due to the company, there was a total sum of £112,000. Another valuable portion of evidence was that of Mr Maxwell, who said that if the railway could be placed there for £110,000 it would be the proper thing for the Government to do. The evidence also showed that the railway was worth £1000 a year to the Government. He said that when ho first came to the House the question of taking over this railway was one of the burning questions at the election, and when he represented the matter to the Government they said they could not entertain the idea unless all the district railways were purchased. He (Mr Cowan) thought that the Waimea Plains railway was one which it was to the advantage of the Government to purchase, and he hoped he had shown the House that this was the case. He trusted the Houso would look at the question from a general point of view, and do that justice to the ratepayers in that part of the country that had been done to ratepayers in other districts.

Mr PEACOCK referred to the evidence given before the committee. He said that Mr O' Conor had said that the commercial value of the line was £97,000, but adding £5000 to represent a liability which the Government had on the line, tho line would be worth £102,000. The Government proposed to give for the line £110,000, which really meant £8000 more, when the liabilities which the Government had to incur were considered.

Captain SUTTER wanted to know whether the House was going to relieve the Agricultural Company of the money which it owed the Government. He said the House was asked to give £124,000 for the railway. He should certainly in committee on the bill move to strike out clause 7, which provided that the Treasurer may make payments in cash to the company. Colonel TRIMBLE said they were really paying about £128,000 for this line which for a number of years would not yield more than £2000 a year, or 1£ per cent. He looked on it as an extravagaiit proposal.

Dr NEWMAN thought the directors of this company had been playing a very considerable game of " bluff," but he was prepared to vote for the purchase of this line as they had bought other lines. He thought, however, they were asked altogether too high a price, and if they, paid £110,000 for the line the ratepayers would be benefited to a very considerable extent.

Mr WILSON was quite prepared to vote for Government giving £110)000 for this railway. He considered, however, that the terms offered in the bill were too large.

Mr BEETH AM opposed the bill. Why should not harbour boards also have the same relief extended to them as was proposed by this bill ?

Sir GEORGE GREY felt it his duty to oppose the purchase of thi3 railway, as heavy charges of this kind would fall on the poorer portion of the population. He contended it was not just of them to impose charges of this nature. It had been pointed out by various speakers that those who would benefit most by this purchase were ihe Now Zealand Agricultural Company, and that they would have to pay £3000 annually to relieve that company. He referred to the formation of that company and ifcun names of the directors of it, and quoted the object of the company from prospectus, which was to provide for the religious, sanitary, and educational welfare of the people who took up the land. He also pointed out that those who promoted this company must have received a very considerable sum for promoting it. He felt convinced in bis own mind that the present Government should not atterript to pass this bill through ; they should leave that to another Government. But if they insisted on passing it he (Sir G. Grey) said the House should resist to the utmost this attempt to pay a charge of £3000 for the purpose of bestowing a donation on the New Zealand Agricultural Company.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCE said Sir G. Grey had made a large number of insinuations against the persons who were connected with public companies.. From his (Mr Ballance's) recollection, when Sir G. Grey was Premier the question of the Agent-general of the colony becoming a director of the New Zealand Agricultural Company was discussed and Sir G, Grey had given his sanction to it.

Sir G. GREY gave this statement a flat denial.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCE said he was speaking from his own recollection of the matter, and other colleagues of the honourable gentleman would confirm that statement. He ventured to say that if Sir G. Grey went to the bottom of the matter and examined the correspondence his assertions would entirely fall to the ground, and he would find that the gentlemen connected with that company were actuated by public motives the same as Sir G. Grey himself. As to the purchase of the Waimea railway, he thought it would be a profitable one to the colony, and he pointed out that the people in the district interested were pressed down on account of their liabilities. In a few years the ratepayers would be freed from the burdens now cast upon them in the way of rates.

Mr BRUCE opposed the bill.

Mr ROLLESTON said he had looked at the papers with every desire to see this question settled on a satisfactory basis, but he had come to the conclusion that the amount the company were asking was in excess of the price that should be charged. With respect to the New Zealand Agricultural Company, he wished to say that Sir G. Grey's statements were borne out by hi 3 utterances at the time. He read from Sir G. Grey's speech in " Hansard " in corroboration of this. He thought it would be a warning in future for the Government not to mix itself up with private companies. As to the present transaction, he considered that with every good intention on the part of tho Minister for Public Works to bring tho matter to a close the Government had been driven into abargain that was not a desirable one for the colony to undertake. Mr BARRON said Mr Cowan did his best to

bring the District Railways Bill under the notice of Ministers with the one object of getting the Waimea line brought under its provisions. If the line were worth £110,000 as stated by expert, he did not see why that money should not be paid to the ratepayers who were entitled to it. If the bill passed its second reading he should endeavour to give the Government less than £8000 ; but would give the company the right to make the ratapayers pay this amount, which he thought they were justly entitled to do.

The motion for the secolid reading of the bill was carried by 28 to 21.

GOVERNMENT LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES.

The Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill was received by message from the Governor. Sir J. VOGEL explained that this was the bill that had been laid aside by the Legislative Council. He now desired the House to pass the bill with some amendments, which he detailed.

The bill was then passed through all its stages without discussion.

GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION.

Sir J. VOGEL moved the second reading of the Government Life Insurance Bill. He said the object of tho bill was to give effect to the report of the Select Committee on the Government Insurance Association, and also to the recommendation of the policyholders of the association. Tho bill re-enacted the old act, which was repealed in 18S-J, when it was decided to hand over the association to a board partly elected and partly nominated, and it was to all intents and purposes the old bill re-enacted. He proposed before the session closed to bring clown an appropriation bill for the salaries of officers. He explained the provisions of the bill at some length, ' and said it followed closely on the recommendation of the Select Committee. He did not consider it necessary to go into other questions, as they were gone into very fully before the committee which sat so recently. The motion was agreed to. The House then went into committee on the bill.

Clause 2 was amended so that the act should come into operation on the 13th October. On clause 4 being reached, Sir JULIUS VOGEL moved to report pro. gress — Agreed to. The Houso rose at 1.15 a.m.

Thursday, August 5. Tho House met at 2.30 p.m. THE GOLD DUTY ABOLITION BILL.

The Hon. Mr LARNACH brought up the report of the committee appointed to search the journals of the Legislative Council in respect to the rejection of the Gold Duty Export Abolition Bill by the Couucil.

On the report being read by the clerk, The Hon. Mr LARNACH moved that a committee be appointed to search for precedents to learn the relation of tho House of Lords to the House of Commons in respect to money bills and taxation remission, imposition, &c. — Agreed to.

REPLIES TO QUESTIONS.

Mr TAYLOR asked the Minister for Public Works if the reports in the press are correct that the Government intend in future to pay all labourers iv the employ of the Government 63 per day, instead of 6s 6d.

The Hon. Mr RICHARDSON said the Government had not interfered iv any way with the permanent hands in the employ of the Government. The temporary labourers only were to receive 6s per day.

Mr SEDDON moved the adjournment of the House. He protested against temporary hands receiviug only 6s per day, and he eaid permanent hands would shortly be dismissed on the ground that men could be got for Gi> instead of 6s 6d. He thought a Liberal Government should be the last to reduce wages.

Some discussion ensued, during which

Mr DONALD REID stated hi.« intention of moving, on going into Committee of Supply, that the circular recently issued by the Government to tho effect that temporary labourers be paid only 6s per day should bo countermanded.

Tho Hon. Ml- RICHARDSON said he had already stated that circular had been sent out under a misapprehension, and it had been recalled. He now wished to say he was glad this discussion had arisen, for it would strengthen the hands of Government so that the same wages should be paid to temporary hands as to those in the permanent employment of the Government.

Mr DUNCAN asked the Govarnment what steps they intended to take in regard to the petition of deferred-payment settlers in Dun-troon-Hakateramea district to be relieved of the railway rates.

The Hon. Mr RICHARDSON said the Government could not see their way to comply with the request Those settlers had already been relieved to the extent of "5 per cent, by the purchase of the line.

THE FISHERIES BILL,

On the motion for the committal of the Fisheries Conservation Act Amendment Bill,

The Hon. Mr LARNACH hoped the House would allow the bill to be committed, as it was a necessary one. If any amendment were required he should be glad of any suggestion. Sir G. GREY hoped the House would not agree to its recommittal. He moved that the bill be committed that day week. The amendment was lost by 36 to 32.

The House went into committee on the bill.

On clause 3 being reached, providing that the Governor-in-Council may make regulations for licensing seal fisheries, Sir G. GREY also protested against this clause being passed, and said the bill might very well stand over till next session.

The motion for reporting progress was carried on a division by 36 to 32.

The Hon. Mr LARNACH said there appeared to be some mistake in the last division. He now moved that the bill be committed again forthwith.

Major ATKINSON moved as an amendment that the bill be committed that day fortnight.

The House again divided, when Major Atkinson's motion was carried by 37 to 28.

SPECIAL POWEKS AND CONTRACTS BILL.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCB moved tho second reading of the Special Powers and Contracts Bill, which was brought in to grant special powers to the Governor to issue Crown grants and enable him to carry oub certaii contracts and promises. He said as tho bill would have to go to the Waste Lands Committee, he hoped the House would consent to the second reading and allow tho debate to be taken on tho committal.

Dr NEWMAN said he understood the Hon. Mr Ballaucfi would have mado provision for tho claimb of old soldievs in this bill.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCE said that was his intention, but he now considered the best plan of dealing with those claims would be by going into tho whole subject during the recess.

Mr HOLLESTON Ih-aight tho bill v/'ould break down, and ho regretted that a useful bill of thi6 kind should be destroyed by the Govern-

ment introducing matters into it that should not be brought into a bill of that nature. The Hon. Mr BALLANCE thought there was nothing unusual in the bill, and he should regret if it were destroyed. He contended that the bill had not departed from the usual lines.

The motion for the second reading was agreed to, and the bill was referred to the Waste Lands Committee.

IN COMMITTEE,

The House went into committee on the District Railways Purchasing Act Amendment Bill.

Mr Montgomery moved that the amount of £35,000 which it was proposed to pay in cash be struck out. He considered it was too much by about £21,000 to pay in cash, and in order to give the committee an opportunity of saying how much should bo cash payment he moved to strike out the whole amount.

Mr Wilson moved to make the total amount to be paid £110,000.

The Hon. Mr Richardson hoped no large reduction would be made.

The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment.

Evening Sitting. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. IN COMMITTEE.

Mr Montgomery's amendment to strike out £35,000 from clause 4, cash payment to company, was then put. — Ayes, 21 ; noes, 21.

The Chairman said he should vote with the noes, in order to lessen the taxation.

Tht amendment was therefore carried.

Mr Dargaville moved to substitute £34,999. He said his reason for doing so was to give an opportunity for tho amendment being discussed iv a fuller committee.

After some discussion,

Thfc Hon. Mr Richardson said there was an evident desiro to reduce the amount to be paid, but he did not agree that the amount was excessive. He thought if the sum was fixed at £33,000, that would not be giving beyond what the colony should pay i"or the line. Mr Darcjaville withdrew his amendment. Colonel Trimble moved to substitute £27,000.

The Hon. Mr Richardson hoped the committee would not agree to such a large reduction as that proposed by Colonel Trimble.

Mr Cowkn pointed out that the bill now before them was to ratify an agreement that had been come to subjecb to the approval of Parliament. He held that by reducing the amount it would be a breach of that agreement.

Colonel Trimble's amendment was carried by 29 to 28.

Colonel Trimble moved that the Colonial Treasurer shall sell the debenture bonds at 2 per cent., instead of 7 per cent, as proposed in clause 4.

The Hon. Mr Richatidson said he should have to consult the Colonial Treasurer as to the effect ef that amendment. He would therefore move that progress be reported. — Agreed to.

THE SHAG POINT COAL MINE. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,

Mr Macandrew moved the motion of which he had given notice as follows :— " That the Government shall take measures to give effect to the recommendations of the Waste Land 3 Committees in the sessions of 1884 and 1886 ou the petition of Mr F. D. Rich and others iv relation to the Shag Point coal mine, and to give effect to the recommendations of the said committees on the petitions of same petitioners in tho sessions of 1881, 1883, 1884, and 1886, in relation to the Shag Point railway." He dotailed at some length the whole circumstances connected with the closing of the Shag Point railway and coal mine, and said he had taken the matter up partly in order to do justice to an injured man. He pointed out that the company had spent £4000 in opening tho mine, and it would have to be closed altogether unless the recommendations of the committee were given effect to.

Tho Hon. Mr Ballance said the offer made by Government in 1884 to Mr Rich was accepbed by him in full settlement of his claim, and he had no right now to reopen it. Mr RoLLEsroN said the evidence taken before the committee went to show that the Inspector of Mines only did his duty in closing the mine, and the committee had made a report to that effect. He contended that the inspector had made a thorough examination of tho mine and found it was unsafe for men to work in. The men also were themselves of opinion that it was unsafe and dangerous to life. He thought Mr Macandrew's sympathy had allowed his judgment to run away with him in this matter, and he considered he should rather be glad to find that a serious disaster had probably been averted by the inspector's action.

Mr Buckland criticised the inspector's action, and denied that there was any danger in the mine being worked.

Mr Harper thought tho House should not hesitate to adopt the recommendations of the committee. He had some knowledge of the case before coming to the House, and his opinion was that the inspector had committed an error of judgment. In common justice he thought Mr Rich's claim should be allowed. After a lengthy discussion the motion for going into Committee of Supply was lost by 34 to 24.

On Mr Macandrew's amendment being put, Mr Lakk a&ked what the amount of Mr Rich's claim was.

Mr Macandrew said tho committee had recommended £3000. Tho amendment was carried by 31 to 26. THE NEXT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT.

On the motion for going into committee of Supply being again put, Mr Taylor moved that tho next sitting of the General Assembly be held at Christchurch. He said that if this motion were carried it would bo beneficial to the conduct of business iv the House, and also to the constitutions of members. The motion was lost on the voices without discussion. THE ESTIMATES. The House went into Commifcteo of Supply, for further consideration of tho Estimates. Class 11, Minister of Public Worke— Vote, £761,000 for working railways — Carried. Government gardens, £1300— Carried. Public buildings, £37,100— Carried. Miscellaneous, £130— Carried. CiaßS 10, Minister of Mto.es— Vote, £2268 for Mines Department. —Mr Allwright moved that the item Inspecting Engineer, £500, be reduced by £50. — Lo.st on the voices, aud the original vote carried. Vote, £3495, Geological and Meteorological department — Carried. Vote, £29,250, miscellaneous services — Captain Sutter moved that tho item £7000 for maintenance and raising sluice, Kumara Sludge-channel, be struck out. — The Hon. Mr Lawnach hoped the item would not be struck out, as this was a paying concern. — Captain Su'ljteb .said if the Minister would assure the committee that this was the last timo that this vote would npjvar <>n +be Estimates he would withdraw the ni'iHoi). lla protested against lh« colony having to pay large sums every year for this woik.— Mr

Rolleston asked -whether there was not an action against the Government in connection with the Rumara sludge channel. — The Hon. Mr liAitNAcn said there was no action now. There had been an action in the Warden's Court, but it had since been settled. — Mr Seddon said that action was owing to. Mr Rolleston's own management when he was Minister for Mines. He said no work in the colony was paying better than the Kumara sludge channel, and next year three times the water would be sold that was sold this year, which would pay 30 peir cent.— Considerable discussion ensued, during which Captain Suiter asked leave to withdraw his motion to strike out the vote of £7500, ia order to move to reduce the vote by £2000 ; bub leave was refused. — Mr Lake said he was inclined to think there was more in this matter than appeared on the surface, as the member for Kumara took it up so warmly. — Mr Seddon said the reason he took it up so warmly was because he felt strongly the attacks which had been made on him in connection with this sludge channel. He said in consequence of those attacks he was not only in danger of losing his political reputation, which he valued, but his private character as well.-— The amendment was lost. — Captain Sutter then moved to cut it down by £2000. — Lost on the voices. — Mr Peacock thought the item £4000, lectures in mining districts, might be reduced by one-half. — Colonel Fhaser vigorously defended the value of Professor Black's labours, and said the Auckland professor had never shown the slightest-interest in the work.— Colonel Trimble supported the reduction of the item. —Mr Scobib Mackenzie said although he represented a mining constituency he thought this vote was much too large. His opinion and that of many was that the attempt to popularise science resulted in no benefit. He hoped the vote would be reduced. — Sir G. M. O'Rorke thought the cireumstancesof the colony did not warrant such an expenditure as that proposed by this vote. In his opinion the money would be better spent by appointing permanent men for goldfields than by having peripatetic officers of this kind. — Mr Fergus said the miners themselves were agreed that those lectures had done them a considerable amount of good. No members of the House had any idea how warmly those subjects were taken up by miners, and he hoped the House would pass the vote. — The Hon. Mr Larnach defended the vote, and thought Prdfessor Black's lectures were productive of much benefit. — After a long discussion Mr Peacock's motion to reduce the vote by £2000 was lost by 28 to 25. — Mr Peacock moved that the item be reduced by £1000. He pointed out that many members were unaware of the large expenses that were incurred under this vote.— Carried by 28 to 27. Mr Locke moved that the item " Contingencies, £1800," be reduced to £500. — Lost. Dr Newman moved that the item be reduced by £200.— Lost by 27 to 21. The total vote as reduced by £1000 was then passed.

Class 1, Legislative. — Vote, £17,390, Legislativfl departments. — Carried. Class 2, Colonial Secretary's.— Vote, £2025, Colonial Secretary's office. — Carried. Vote £SOO (Minister's secretary), £800.- Carried. Vote £3720 (messengers and office-keepers).— Carried. Vote £2980 (Electoral department).— Carried.

Thursday, sth August.

After tho Telegraph Office closed, the following items on the Estimates were dealt with : — Colonial Secretary's Department. — Vote £6875, Audit Office.— Carried. Vote £17,972, Registrar-general's Department. — Carried. Vote £4325, Agent-general's Department.— Carried. On the item Charitable Aid, £1120, Mr Hatch took exception to tho hurried appointment of Dr Macgregor as Inspector of Asylums. The vote was carried. — Major Atkinson asked how much further it was intended to go with the Estimates. The Minister op Lands said he hoped to finish them that night. . Major Atkinson demurred, and objected to such late sittings. They were longer than in the previous sessions, and ho said tho Government would not get the Estimates through iE they persisted. After considerable discussion the Estimates were proceeded with. Vote £-12,808, for Lunatic Asylums.— Carried. Vote £22,322, printing and stationery.— "Carried. Miscellaneous, £21,663.— Carried.

Friday, August 6.

REPLIES TO QUESTIONS.

Mr VINCENT PYKE asked the Minister of Lands what has been done to' give effect to the homestead clause of the Land Act in the provincial district of Otago.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCE said 3000 acres of laud had been recommended by the Government to be set aside for this purpose. Mr IVESS asked the Minister of Justice if he will cause the statutes passed during each session of Parliament to be supplied to the various libraries in the colony. Tho Hon. Mr TOLE said all the libraries that were supplied with statutes last year would be supplied also this year. Mr GRACE asked the Minister for Public Works whether it is the intention of the Government to call for tenders for the construction of a section oftheMorrinsville-Rotorua railway line at the Rotorua cud ; and whether, in connection therewith, it is intended to set apart some of the Crown lands along the line for village settlements in the same manner as had been done in the Sevpnty-mile Bush.

The Hon. Mr RICHARDSON said as to tho first part of the question, the Government had not yet made up its mind. As to the second portion, he said it was the intention of the Government to set apart some of those lands.

Mr HAMLIN asked the Defence Minister whether in tho new volunteer regulations he will do away with the necessity for volunteers going through class firing to qualify themselves for capitation, and that in lieu thereof he will direct that every member of a volunteer corps shall fire 40 rounds of ball cartridge as^ target practice, such ball practice to be under the supervision of a commissioned or non-commis-sioned officer, and a return of such shotting to be forwarded to the Dofeuco Office on the 31st December in each year. The Hon. Mr BALLANCE said he was of opinion that class firing should not be abolished. The Government proposed to draw up volunteer regulations and invito suggestions from different corps in reference to them. Mr GORE asked the Minister for Public Works if ho will consider the advisability of granting a bonus for the manufacture of printincr paper in the colony. The Hon. Mr RICHARDSON said the matter would be taken into consideration.

IN COMMITTEE,

Tbe Government Insurance Bill was furbher considered in committee. A long discussion ensued on clause 7, which provides that on the commencement of this act all the real and personal property of the association shall vest in the Queen, and the rightsjTfcc. of the association, shall be vested in tho commissioners.

Sir J. VOCM'ih propysi'd (n ;ul<l to tho clmso a new proviso that raonoy should bo voted by the House for all sites and buildings in future,

but withdrew it after some discussion in order to introduce it as a new clause.

Clause 7 was then passed slightly amended. On clause 8 being reached (providing that the officers of the associatioa bhall be in the civil service), Mr MONTGOMERY said he had not moved for the appointment during good behaviour of a statutory officer, because he found the feeling of hon. members whose opinions he valued very highly was against it.

In clause 11 (moneys may be lent to policyholders and on mortgage), Sir J. VOGEL moved an amendment that no one loan on mortgage shall exceed £4000. After a lengthy discussion, Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE moved that the amount be £10,000.

Sir J. Vogel's proposal for £4000 was negatived by 32 to 30. Mr Mackenzie's amendment was then put, and lost by 32 to 29. Sir J. VOGEL then moved that £5000 be inserted, which was carried on the voices.

Mr CONOLLY moved an addition to the clause to the effect that not more than £5000 should be lent on mortgage to any one person or company. — Carried.

Colonel TRIMBLE moved to strike out "that application to borrow loans not exceeding £5000 shall have priority over applications for larger Bums."

IN COMMITTEE

On the Government Insurance Bill.

Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE moved an amendment to insert before the provision that loans under £5000 should have priority the words " as far as may be consistent with the interests of the department." The words in clause being "so far as practicable."

Mr ROLLESTON moved that instead of the ■words "as far as practicable," the words '' other things being equal," be inserted, which was carried on the voices, Mr Mackenzie having withdrawn his amendment.

Mr G. F. RICHARDSON moved a proviso that loans shall be made at a uniform rate of interest to be declared from time to time, irrespective of the amount of loan. — Lost on the voices.

The remaining clauses passed without amendment.

Sir J. VOGEL moved a new clause, to the effect that all expenditure for sites and buildings should be made out of the general appropriation 6f General Assembly.

The District Railways Purchasing Act Amendment Bill was further considered in committee. On clause 4, providing for debenture bonds being issued by the Treasurer to realise the purchase money,

The Bon. Mr RICHARDSON said the Government proposed to issue short-dated debentures instead, which could be changed into inscribed stock.

Colonel TRIMBLE then withdrew the amendment he had moved for the sale of debentures at not less than two per cent, under par instead of seven.

The remaining clauses were passed with verbal amendments, and progress was reported on the bill.

The House went into committee on the Rabbit Act Amendment Bill.

A few clauses were passed, and progress was reported.

THIRD HEADINGS,

The House went into committee on the Sheep Act Amendment Bill, which was reported with slight amendments, read a third time, and passed.

The House went into committee on the Local Bodies' Finance and Powers Bill, which passed without amendment.

Mr SMITH suggested that the bill should be recommitted on Monday, as several members interested in counties wished to move amendments.

Sir J. VOGEL agreed to postpone the third reading of the bill till Monday. He would then see whether he could agree to the amendments proposed, and if so, he wbnld have the bill recommitted in order that members might have an opportunity of moving them.

The House went into committee on the Companies' Branch Registers Bill, Avhich was reported without amendment, read a third time, and passed.

DISTILLATION.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,

Mr LEVESTAMmoved— " That in the opinion of this House the distillation of spirits within the colony ought to be encouraged, so as to afford farmers a local market for their grain." Sir J. VOGEL said the Government were not altogether at one on the subject. He believed it was a resolution they should have to give cif ect to, but the Premier was against it. The question was, whether or not they should use Colonial grain for the purpose. They would have to try to avoid the mistake made the last time, which involved the payment of heavy compensation and loss to the revenue. He should vote for the resolution.

Mr TAYLOR asked why in the face of previous experience they should [repeat an experiment which would cause loss to the revenue.

Sir J. VOGEL said he would take care the revenue did not suffer by it.

The amendment was lost on the voices, and the House went into Committee of Supply for further consideration of

THE ESTIMATES.

Class 4, Minister for Justice — Vote, £950, department of Justice. — Carried. Vote, £2325, Crown Law office.— Carried. Vote, £220, Patent office. — Carried. Vote, £8665, Supreme Court. — Carried. Vote, £5566, bankruptcy. — Carried. Vote, £48,798, district resident magistrates' and wardens' courts. — Carried. Vote, £11,000, criminal prosecutions. — Carried. Vote, £3000, "Coroners Act, 1867."— Carried. V0te, £34,170, prisons. — Mr Hatch pointed out that several goalers had an increase in the estimates this year. He wished to know the reason of this. — The Hon Mr Tole said first-class goalers were entitled to an increase of £10 a year, and secondclass goalers to £5. — The vote was carried. Vote, £2500, miscellaneous. — Carried.

Class 13, Minister of Lands— Vote, £22,004, Crown Lands department. — Carried. Vote, £1175, expenses Thermal Springs Act. — Carried. Vote, £2861, miscellaneous services. — Mr Dodson called attention to the vote of £1500 for fees and expenses to members of waste land boards. He wished to know why the expenses of some of these boards were so large compared with others. There were rumours that some members of the House who were members of land boards were in the habit of using their railway passes and charging the amount of the railway fare to land boards.— Mr Pearson thought this item was altogether too large He moved to reduce it by £500.— The Hon. Mr Ballancb said the House had no control of the vote, as it was fixed bypermanentappropriation.— Dr Newman referred to the comparatively large expenditureof thoseboardsin Otago. — Mr Reid haid there was more pastoral and agricultural land in Otapo than in all the other portions of the colony, lie thought it would be a great mistake to reduce the vote.— Major Atkinson hoped the Minister

would take the expenses of those boards into consideration. He was quite aware this item was fixed by act, but he thought the expenditure was too large. There was a good deal of scandal in connection with it. — The Hon. Mr Ballance denied that any members of a waste land board had used their railway passes and charged the amount to the board. — Major Atkinson said he was very glad to hear that statement. — Mr Pearson then withdrew his amendment. The vote passed without alteration. Vote, £200, coalfields.— Carried. .Vote, £80,812, Survey department. — This item elicited a lengthy discussion, but it was passed without alteration. Vote, £9750, State Forests Account. — Carried. Vote, £37,500, rates on Crown lands. — Carried. Vote, £5764, Colonial Treasurer's. — Carried. Vote, Public Works department, £14,000.— Carried. Vote, new works construction^ and land, £16,400— Carried. Vote, £34,600, roads and bridges and wharves north of "Auckland. — Carried. Vote, £24,900, main roads. — Carried. Vote, £52,600, miscellaneous, roads, and bridges. Carried. Vote, £97,000, grants in aid. — Carried. Vote, £61,500, roads to open up lands before sales, — Carried after a long discussion. Vote, £5080, improvement of village settlements. — This vote elicited a lengthy discussion, during the course of which the Hon. Mr Ballance said he regretted this vote was not £20,000, but £5000 was all that could be expended this year. Several members spoke on the vote. Mr Turnbull said in order to bring the matter to an issue he would move that it be struck out. — The amendment was negatived and the item carried. Vote, £52,000, roads to goldfields.— Carried. Vote, £15,100, waterworks on goldfields. — Carried. Vote, £20,000, Minister for Native Affairs.— The Hon. Mr Ballance, in reply to Mr Bryce, said he agreed that the whole system of purchase of Native lands required revision, and that purchase by commissioner was a failure. It would not be continued after the six months' engagement expired. Monday, August 9. TniRD READING. The Local Bodies' Finance and Powers Bill was read a third time and passed. CIVIL SERVICE REFORM BILL. Sir R. STOUT said he did not quite_ agree with the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Civil Service Reform Bill as to nomination of cadets. The Council had altered the bill in that respeot, and instead of making appointments by members of the House a provision was inserted for appointments by competitive examination. He would move that the amendments be agreed to, although he did not altogether agree with them. Yet, considering the late stage of the session, he thought it better than to abandon the bill altogether.

Mr ROLLESTON said the bill was altogether a new bill by the amendments made in it. He suggested it should be withdrawn. Mr DOWNIE STEWART hoped the bill would be withdrawn, as there was very little of the original bill left.

Major ATKINSON took a similar view of the matter. He hoped the Premier would tell the House whether the bill in its present shape would carry out his promise to make a saving of £25,000 or £30,000.

Sir R. STOUT thought it better to accept the bill in its present form than to have no bill at all. As to the saving he had spoken of, the clause he relied onto effect that saving — namely, the one for the appointment of a commissioner to report on the cost of living — had been struck out. With respect to competitive examinations, he should take care that boys from country schools would have the same advantage as those from other schools. The only important amendment made in the bill was the one relating to those examinations. He hoped the House would agree to amendments made by the Council. The amendments were then agreed to. NOTICE.

Mr O'CONOR gave notice to ask the Government if they would consider the advisability of consulting M. Pasteur, the French scientist, on the question of dealing with the rabbit and small bird pests by inoculation with virus. HOSPITALS AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS BILL.

Mr R. STOUT moved that the Hospitals Charitable Institutions Bill be recommitted for consideration of clauses 3 and 4.

Mr BUCHANAN moved as an addition — " That the clause relating to the separation of Wairarapa from Wellington be also considered."

After further discussion,

Sir R. STOUT said he found there was no such clause in the bill as that proposed to be recommitted by Mr Buchanan, and therefore withdrew his motion for the adjournment of the debate.

Mr BUCHANAN then said, with the Speaksr's permission, he would move to recommit the bill for consideration of a new clause. — Lost'by 29 to 27.

Mr WALKER also withdrew his amendment. The bill was then recommitted for consideration of the clauses proposed by the Premier, who moved an amendment making subsidies on contributions from local authorities pound for pound. — Agreed to. The bill was reported with amendments, read a third time, and passed. GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ASSOCIATION BILL. On the motion for the third reading of the Government Life Insurance Bill,

Mr HATCH moved that the bill be recommitted for consideration of a new clause providing that agencies may be established in the United Kingdom for the sale of annuities for life and for the appropriation of money for that purpose.

Sir J. VOGEL had no doubt this proposal would be a profitable one for the Insurance department. When Mr Hatch had consulted him on the sulject he informed him that owing to the circumstances under which the department was being taken over by the Government, he did not think the House would be prepared to accept a proposal to extend the business in the direction indicated, although it might be desirable to have the matter ventilated. He thought, however, they would not be justified in going into it this session. He should advise Mr Hatch to be content with getting the matter discussed, and that it should then stand over, at any rate, till next session, by which time it could be more f uJly considered.

Major ATKINSON said he should have to vote against the new clauses, although he had very little doubt that the department would eventually extend its operations in that direction, which he admitted would be a profitable undertaking. He was of opinion, however, that a proposal of this nature should come from the Government, and only after mature consideration.

After further discussion, the amendment was lost and the bill was read a third time and passed, ' « Sir JULIUS VOGEL moved the second reading of the Stamp Act Amendment Bill, which was to remedy some mistake in tho existing act relating to miners 1 rights and also to give relief to those acquiriug Native lands, by which certain

deeds would not be liable to a penalty.— Agreed to. The House went into committee on the bill.

Sir JULIUS VOGEL moved the following new clause in respect of land for which title is obtained under or by virtue of the 24th and 25th sections of " The Native Lands Administration Act 1886 " : — " The several duties chargeable under ' The Stamp Act 1882 Amendment Act 1885 ' shall be due and payable as soon as the land becomes vested by conveyance on sale or by lease in the purchase or lease respectively, and section 46 of ' The Stamp Act 1882 ' shall apply thereto accordingly. Nothing in the section contained shall establish any claim to a refund of any stamp duties of penalties already paid." — Carried. The bill was reported as amended. REPRESENTATION AILL.

Sir R. STOUT moved the- second reading of the Representation Bill. He said the principle of the bill had previously been affirmed in this House — viz., the automatic readjustment of representation by a board. He regretted that the bill of 1879 had not been passed into law. The two main principles of the bill were — Ist, the population basis; 2nd, the appointment of a board. He did not believe that there could be any satisfactory basis of representation except the one of population, and he hoped this principle would be affirmed as a guide to all future distribution of representation. He hoped the House would look beyond the narrow limits of their own districts, and deal with the large question of principle. As to the constitution of the board there might be a diffierence of opinion, but he had chosens one which would be impartial. He, however, left that to the House as an open question, and would be satisfied with the affirmation of the principle. He though it was right to provide that the three unofficial members should not be eligle for election to Parliment for a certain period. This would prevent any accusation of bias against the board. As to the question of city electorates, he had always disapproved of single city constituencies. Their need not be any uneasiness as to a session next year, as the Government would call the session together as early as practicable.

Major ATKINSON congratulated the Premier on his determination to go on with the bill this session. He agreed to the two main principles of the bill, and saw a great difficulty in devising any other basis of representation than that of population. There was the leaving out a minority unrepresented, but he thought it would be better to have some proportionate system than to go on with the present single constituencies. He hoped the principle of the bill would be affirmed without much talk, and then it could be amended. He thought the country should have equal representation with towns. There would be a conflict between the time of the existence of parliament and the census unless there was a return to a quinquennial parliament, and'he confessed that the triennial parliaments had* proved to be too short. As to the board, he would prefer to have it limited to the two official members. He thought it was decidedly desirable to have electorates with more than one member. He would like to see a variety in our electorates, but that would entail a great deal of discussion. He thought the bill ought to be passed this session without dealing with city electorates, leaving that for next session.

Mr J. M^KENZIE agreed with the principles of the bill," but objected to the amalgamation of city electorates. When in committee he intended to move that the number of members be reduced to 75, which he considered would conduce to economy.

Dr NEWMAN said he congratulated the Premier on bringing in so excellent a measure. He would like to point out that in clause 3 there was no hint thrown out that members of either House of Parliament" could not sit on the board. He agreed with the population basis as being the best that could be devised. He also agreed with the proposal to amalgamate city electorates and hoped it would be adopted. He would like to see the Southern Maori electorate amalgamated with some of the districts around Cook Strait, as the Northern 'Maori members represented over 13,000 electors each, against 1200 odd electors represented by the Southern Maori members.

Colonel TRIMBLE objected to the amalgamation of city electorates. If it was right to amalgamate the cities, then it was illogical to say they should be limited to four members if their population entitled them to more.

Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE said there was considerable distinction to be drawn between town and country representation. The towns had much better means of organisation than country districts, and therefore some sort of allowance should be made, as was done in 1881 for country constituencies. Population, he held, should be the main basis, but not the sole basis. It was not the sole basis in any part of the world. He approved of the board, as it was likely to get rid of a good deal of acrimonious discussion in the House.

Mr LEVESTAM was of opinion that the population basis should not be the sole basis of representation, although he admitted it should be an important factor in it. He would be quite agreeable to have the number of members reduced provided they were taken away from the cities. It was very easy for the towns to have their wants made known, but the same facilities 'were not found in country districts. He thought if the number of members was reduced it would give the Government of the day an over-balancing power. Two representatives for a city were quite sufficient for all purposes ; but it was very different in the country, as it took in some cases many weeks before a country member could go amongst all his constituents. Tho motion for adjournment was lost. Mr ROSS moved the adjournment of the debate.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCE said he understood a great many members wished to speak on the bill, and as iv was evident no further business could be done that night he should not object to the adjournment. The House rose at 1.20 a.m.

Tuesday, August 10.

The House met at 2.30 p.m.

Mr PEACOCK asked the Minister of Lands (1) Whether he has seen a letter from Mr Arthur Olayden, in England, to the New Zealand Herald of 31st July, in which he denounces the low- toned commercial morality of New Zealand? (2) Whether that gentleman is in receipt of pay from the Government; and if so, does the Minister consider that Mr Clayden while holding and expressing such opinions is likely to render any real service to the colony. The Hon. Mr BALLANCE said he had read the letter referred to. Mr Clayden had received a sum of money from the Government to deliver a series of lectures in England. He had no knowledge of the truth of the statements made by Mr Clayden, and had not seen in any of Mr Clayden's letters on the colony any reflection at all on colonists. With respect to Mr Claydeu himself, his time of engagement to

the colony was nearly up, or would be in nine months.

Mr IVESS asked the Minister for Public Works if he will cause the railway tariff to be readjusted with a view of transferring fruit to Class E, in order that it may be carried at the same rates as charged for grain and other local productions. The Hon. Mr RICHARDSON said some time ago the charge for fruit carriage was reduced, but not to Class B. The tariff now met the reasonable demands of fruitgrowers.

Sir GEORGE GREY asked what the Government were doing for the relief of the unemployed in Auckland. The Hon. Mr RICHARDSON said he could not reply to the question at present, but the Government were taking steps in the matter. Sir G. GREY moved the adjournment of the House in order that the Government might put a sum on the Supplementary Estimates for the relief of those people who were now in great extremities. He spoke on the subject at some length, urging that land should be set apart for the purpose of relieving those who were in distress.

After a discussion had taken place, Sirß. STOUT saidhe hoped this Houseby next year would have some rule to stop these endless motions for the adjournment of the House, by which subjects of every kind were discussed which were of no use whatever. He replied to several of the statements made by previous speakers, and said village settlements were proving very successful in some parts of the colony. As to the unemployed question, there were more unemployed in the city of Sydney than in the whole of New Zealand, and he asked what could the Government do more than they were doing to find employment for those men. 'phey could not offer higher wages without injuring private individuals. If members would really point out what they wanted, something practical might result from it.

STAMP DUTY BILL. Sir J. VOGEL moved that the Stamp Act Amendment Bill be recommitted for consideration of clause 3.

Mr GUINNESS moved that clause 2 be also considered so that a mistake in last year's act might be rectified, by which 7s 6d was charged fir the transfer of mining property instead of Is. This was agreed to, and clause 3 was slightly amended. The bill was read a third time and passed.

SETTLED LAND BILL.

Sir R. STOUT moved the second reading of the Settled Land Bill, explaining that as it had already been fought out in the Legislative Council it was not necessary for him to go into the details. The bill was brought in for facilitating the sales of settled land.

Mr DOWNIE STEWART pointed out that the adoption of wholesale English legislation was a most vicious principle. Although he agreed with the main provisions of this bill, and he admitted that it was an improvement on the Alienation of Land Bill which had been withdrawn, yet he contended that certain interests affected by the bill should be carefully guarded. Mr GARRICK approved of the bill, and thought that in committee it might be made a workable measure. He considered, however, the Premier had not treated the House quite fairly in introducing it. He referred to several clauses of the bill, and pointed out the objections he had to them, urging that the bill was of too sweeping a character in some respects. He recognised that some such measure wus necessary this session, and he hoped they would amend it in committee in the direction he had nointed out.

Mr CONOLLY would not oppose the bill, because it was very much on the lines of a bill he had introduced three years ago. He regretted, however, that it had not been introduced at an earlier period of the session.

Mr SAMUEL thought the' House was indebted to Mr Garrick for the exhaustive manner in which he had gone into the bill. He himself heartily supported the bill.

Sir R. STOUT took exception to Mr Garrick's remarks on the bill, and said he was surprised at his attitude, especially as he had expressed a very favourable opinion of the Settled Estates Act of 1882. He should not object to any reasonable amendments in committee.

The motion for the second reading was agreed to.

TAXING CHURCH PROPERTY. Sir R. STOUT moved the second reading of the Property Assessment Act Amendment Bill, which was an amendment of the act of last year in several directions.

Mr MACANDREW saw no necessity for the bill, which was most impolitic and uncalled for. If revenue were wanted, why not abolish the exemptions ? He said the bill utterly disregarded the feelings of a large number of people in the colony by taxing church property. For the sake of £200 people were to be taxed for the worship of God. They were also to be taxed in their collective as well as their individual capacity.

Mr GARRICK referred to some defects in the bill and said the tendency of our legislation appeared to be to make it a crime to hold any kind of landed property.

Mr DOWNIE STEWART said the House did not know last year that it was intended that churches should be taxed in this way. He complained that a radical and important alteration should not be made in that manner without the House being made aware of it.

Mr STOUT did not see why church endowment properties should be exempt from taxation any more than other properties. He explained that the bill would only touch endowments. The motion for the second reading of the bill was agreed to.