THE ABOLITION BILL.

Otago Witness, Issue 1241, 11 September 1875, Page 8

THE ABOLITION BILL.

In, the House of Representatives at 7.30 last evening, after Major Atkinson's state* ment,

Mr Stout said it would be well for the Government to reconsider its position altogether, and bring in these Bills before proceeding further. Mr Wood said it seemed the Government intended to abandon all the appropriation clauses.

■ Major Atkinson : The Government abandons nothing, at all. ■' Mr Wood: The Treasurer said the Government would abandon nothing at all, yet they proposed bringing down a Bill which alters the whole thing. Sir George Grey, referring to statements previously made, denied the legal question was merely technical as alleged. He said he did not attach much value to the opinion of the late Attorney-General. On the Government side of the House not one single lawyer had advanced an opinion in favour of legality, whereas many able lawyers on his side had given an opinion against such legality. He further considered the opinion of the late AttorneyGeneral does not bear the Government out in the course they are taking. If their learned lawyer was now. in the House he would tell them that though he might have said the Assembly could abolish the Provinces they had not the power to act in the unconstitutional manner proposed by the Government. The hon. member then at some length reiterated his former speeches and letters about taking away the liberties of the people, and that it was illegal to change the Constitution of a country without an appeal to the country. It had been said that the people would not love the privileges, but they would, for the Bill was false on its front, for it ought to be called not a " Bill to abolish the Provinces," but " a Bill to take away the representations of the people." " Provincial district " was submitted for Provinces, and representation was taken away. For representative institutions were submitted a Government by nominees of the Governor. Major Atkinson ; No. " Sir George Grey : Who says "No ?" Major Atkinson : I do.

Sir George Grey : I can only say you have not read the Bill. No Government could promise to amend the Bill next session, for they might not have a majority, or the session might be wholly taken up in devising means for the salvation of the country from the impending financial crisis. The measure was only calculated to create a governing class, which had been the tendency of all measures lately, as might be seen by the enormous estates that had been given by the Government to its supporters. They had been told that though, perhaps, such acts were illegal, yet they were expedient., I Every act of Government had been to create j a governing class, Why were titles of honour given to certain people. Such titles were improper and illegal. The Gevernment were merely taking the opportunity offered of having a m?jority at their command, knowiogthey would never passit if they went to the country. Major Atkinson : No. j

Sir George Grey : Then dissolve. He agreed that the burdens should bs cast upon property, but he had no faith in the recent conversion of the Government to this doctrine, and believed that if they passed this Bill they would not attempt ta relieve the middle classes. That would cast a burden apon taxpayers that years of toU would not

"caU off. He trusted , every man who^rjeally:^ loved New Zealand would use fev§ry means the rules of the Assembly ' provided to prevent, if possible, this detestable measure passing into law. He intended to do bo, and he trusted he would have many members acting with him. Sir Donald M'Lean said it seemed the whole gist of the member's argument was ' that he wished to raise up a Republic in the Colony, with the only difference that Provincial Governments should form a part of the machinery. There was no attempt to take away the rights and privileges' of the people, and as for the Bill appealing to the lowest motives of the people, the hon. member and his party must have been more guilty for having promised to bring in a Bill which would give the people more. If this Bill was bad, then the honourable member's must have been more so, for he would have held out a greater temptation to the people of New Zealand. It was not necessary to refer to the legal position, for the Government had taken their stand and would not deviate from it in the slightest degree. As to the rights and privileges being t*ken away, this was an assertion which the honourable member was particularly demonstrative in making ; but what were those rights and privileges ? Of the nine Provinces, there were only two which could do anything for the people. On his own admission, the Province over which he (the honourable member for Auckland City West) presided, was in a state of bankruptcy, and he could do nothing for the people, . and where were the rights and privileges ? The object of the Bill was not to take away rights and privileges, but to extend them to the utmost equality to all parts of the Colony — not to confine privileges to a favoured localisation. It wai not because they had a majority in I the House that Government were desirous of passing the Bill. They had a. majority all over the country, and the question of delay i was entirely unnecessary, as the Bill had been before the country for years — ever' since 1858, and even for two years before j that. The people had called out for it i from all parts of the Colony. — (No, Yes, and oheers.) The Government would continue in their course. He charged the honourable member for Auckland City West with having raised questions which had nothing to do with the matter, in order to lead the minds of the people away from the subject. The assertion of class legislation was not warranted. Where had been the class legislation ? - i Sir George Grey : Orders in Council. Sir Donald M'Lean : Orders in Council ! i Why, no one had been so fond of Orders in j Council as the honourable gentleman him- | self. The people, in those days, had no j rights and privileges, and were governed by a despot. That honourable gentleman continually got up and said the people were borne down by oppression; that the Government in all their acts acted illegally ; but if the acts of the Government were compared with the acts of the honourable gentleman in j olden days, it would be seen that their actsu were light and trifling to the despotism thai; honourable gentleman had been guilty of. After some further remarks, the honourable gentleman concluded a spirited- speech by saying the Government had determined the Bill should go on to its conclusion, feeling confident it should meet with the approba- j tion and the requirements of the people. - Mr Carrington thought the'whole effeot of the change woald be to consolidate -the ' Colony, aud a more able change tbari that proposed could not take place. , Taranaki did not care what system they were under, s» long as they were better off than they were at present. Mr Wi Parata expressed his intention to I support the Bill, not because he was a member of the Government but because Wan* ganui had not received justice at the hands of the Superintendent, and because Provincialism had failed in other directions. He thought the objections against the Bill were personal ones. He should support every clause. Mr Thomson moved an adjournment at about midnight. In the House of Representatives, at 2.30 to-day, Sir George Grey moved, without leave, for a return of all lands purchased by Government from Europeans during the last two years. He wanted to know how these lands were to he applied. Return ordered. Mr Stout asked under what authority Sir Julius Vogel entered into a contract with the New Zealand Shipping Company for the conveyance of emigrants to New Zealand. He thought, if he could make a contract by himself at Home, it was no use having the Cabinet. Major Atkinson replied that Sir Julius Vogel entered into no contract. These contracts were always made by the AgentGeneral Mr Stout then gave notice to ask whether ship-owners generally were given an opportunity to compete with the New Zealand Company. The adjourned debate on the Abolition Bill wa3 resumed by Mr Thomson this afternoon, who prefaced his remarks by stating that it had been demonstrated last night that all the land funds of the Colony would be exhausted in two years. He hoped the Government would'take care to appoint for Provincial districts men of ability and integrity. The' honourable member said the public works measure given notice of would not stand on all fours with the Abolition Bill. The only conclusion. to be drawn from this discordant legislation was that the Government did not know their own minds.' They had no guiding mind, •no unity. • The honourable gentleman criticised at great .length the Treasurer's statement regarding' the results of the proposed , system of local government, and arguing that his figures, were entirely fallacious. The Treasurer endeavoured to explain that we were not paying interest out of loans. We were not only 'doing that, but for the last four years the House had been confirming the principle of paying interest out of loan. This year they were taking a large sam out of land revenue and calling it consolidated revenue. That was the way they were going to pay the Road Boards £168,000. Latterly the House ■had no control over the expenditure of money. They were like a stockman trying, to head off a bullock, but who was only able to keep in eight of the beast. They were

jUpPQaed^tQ^peadwlaeii^ pnly upon ' reproductive ".works.f bat" it ;a Post Office, Custom House, or' Telegraph [Office was wanted, it was erected out 1 of , borrowed money. They built a Museum, . new Parliament House, and they spent over £2000, on parliamentary furniture ';" bu,t surely all this could not be called' "repro-, 'ductive." The, Civil Service ,was becoming |an enormous drag upon the Colony. Government would soon be compelled to face the difficulty. Would any member credit that there were 5256 persons employed in the :Civil Service? It was alarming to think what this army would swell to by additons from > Provincial services when, abolished! ' The position of the General Government might be likened to a master who was too poor to keep his servant any longer, but, disliking to admit his poverty, he sought to hnd some pretext for his dismissal. The General Government could not afford to keep up Provincialism— (hear, hear, from- the lreasurer)- and wanted to abolish it. They ?« U £r & have come boldly, and said so.—* We did," from the Treasurer.) MrM'Glashan pointed out that a very large number of Civil servants referred to received very small salaries. If these were not wanted they would not have been on the list, lhe Government was afe'ed of logrolling, bat it could not come up^o Provincml Councils for that, as witness the £ShS" SS 8 * year a PP™Priatin g over £400 000 more than was available, and which i 5° -fu Ul< \ of the sheerest logrolling, coupled with a desire to realise as much £ could be done before the General Government stepped m. /

n n i-u xt ■ September 4th. the House resuming at 7.30 last even," thti r^u d oonti ™* A > an <i went on to ghow that the House and Government in 1870 and amce had practically recognised that Auckland had- been unfairly treated by votine in all about £800,000 for purchasing^ Tand fund for the North Island, and yetluckS was without a land fund.' By han^nf oTer confiscated lands, he was surprised that the Government, with all the means of information at their command, thought they could realise £45,000. Even if the? go! *K d " they not have to spend a large proportion a SttK it 1 ' S? \ rid Bes?8 es? Wfiatwodd be then left? The hon. gentleman here the result of thetr management of confiscated ?? 3 itt«J?™ lllg ??*J™? the Government 1 sold £65,000 worth of confiscated lands Of this sum £45,000 went for advertising, pay., ment for purchase, and travelling expenses.- '- What chance then, was there tor Auckland to realise £45,000 this year? The hon% Financial Statement/ and said the last few financial statements could not be depended tt ■•* ± ?' § eatle «ian then referred to * the statement of Dr Pollen in 1873, which was that we should have 760 miles of railways, open and well equipped for a- total Colonial debt of something over thirteen milliona. What was the- result? The Colony was indebted seventeen millions and had only 336 miles of railway. The position of the Colony now was this : every penny of the loans Borrowed aioce 1871 was practically and certainly gone or covered by liabilities excepting £661,000, Of that sum £120,000 remained en account of land purchases and could not be voted for anything elae. Other sums applicable only for defence purposes brought the sum down to about £400 000 That was all the House had to go upon' ' What sensible man would say the House had ' aright to appropriate one shilling of that £400,000 ? Who knew whether the whole of that amount would not be absorbed before the works at present in hand were finished f The honourable gentleman adduced a number - of figures to show the Treasurer's calculations regarding the land fund were utterly fallacious, that the Colony waa in a state of bankruptcy, and he waa prepared to prove before any Committee that the Colony had entered into engagementsit could not meet. Touching the land revenue of Canterbury, he estimated its revenue for a J year—from sales of land at £120,000 ; pastoral leases, £44,000. Total, £164,000. The Colonial Treasurer's estimate of the IMd fund of tho same Province for eight months was £461,758. Otago estimated land revenue for the whole year at £230 000 The Colonial Treasurer for eight months ' estimated it at £271,821. It was impossible to find words to characterise Estimates like this. According to his calculations, there would be a deficiency in Otago and Canterbury alone of between, twenty and thirty thousand pounds, andhe could show numerous other discrepancies. The honourable gentleman then made a long -'. explanation regarding certain imputations cast upon him by Mr Buckland, regarding * his statement that there was a balance in : the Bank at Auckland. That honourable ' merpber sanctimoniously turned 'up 'the whiles of his eyes, and with a Chadbandian ' exprassjon, and in a Wesleyan whine, threw out an muendo, which he knew to be false • [The Speaker here called the honourable gentleman to order.] He defended himself from the charge of having taken office from ' mercenary motives. He had refused office ' from Mr Stafford, and from the late Super- - intendent of Auckland. He accepted office under Sir George Grey because three days before the meeting of the Provincial Council that gentleman had told him he had not - an Executive Officer to meet a Council with. : He offered his services immediately, and SirGeorge Grey should have them as long ag . he wanted them, provided he had sufficientleisure, whether he received anything for it or not. He saw how the land lay He knew that Sir. George would never be" norni-' ' na'ted Superintendent; and if he (Mr Wood) ' had chosen to come there and laud the " Ministers, he might have been Superintendent, and instead of getting £150 for sir , months, might have got £6QO or £700 a-year ■ for a long while perhaps. The honourable < member concluded by charging the Treasurer '- ; with manufacturing surpluses but of bor- ' rowed money. Scarcely any members of ; that House m their private life would sit J upon couches paid, for by other peppleV ' money but they would come there and 'ri^fupon these horrid benches which were"? bought wrth other peopled money. Even , that wretched tawdry mixture of a church^ and a dancing saloon in which they met had to be paid for out of other people's money: :

Mtoisterud resides ,* -were paid for, mended and patched, wi otn6r peO pi e ' B mon ey. Travelling expei acs wero J^ for out o{ other peoples money. Everything was charged on loa- g^ jo M * T - J* ■ ihepberd pointed out that in one item alor „jt lw honorable member was in error £28 hqooh g OO ud what re iiance °°S pl ioed in bis figures at aIL Air Bro' ifn (Qtago) mO ved the debate be adjourner iant athe Ministry brought down their Bo ,*! of Works Bill. Mess jj, jgtoiit, Takamoana, Sheehan, and M * apported Mr Brown's amendment. Mr Fatzherbert accused Ministers of draB0B 0 , 0 . 1 " iag the House by their large majority WD tA. followed them in shackles. They w ' we prepared to do anything to hold office. ~ Ikaaßtern had done that which in other cases ac -might name would make them amenable &o criminal prosecution. They bad oonoeived *" Provincial Districts," but had obtained a 'drag from the honourable mo tuber for Port •Sfealmers, and had procured an abortion. TJMy had destroyed their chili in the womb. TLK^ honourable gentleman ended by protesting, on behalf ot the party and country, against being led like sheep to the slaughter. Messrs White and Murray followed, Keeping the debate going till 2 o'clock. There were repeated calls for an adjournment from the Opposition, but they were answered by cries of divide. Mr Brown's amendment was ultimately put and lost, by 37 to 15. Major Atkinson* announced his intention to reply on Tuesday. The Bill was ordered to be committed that «Uy, and the House adjourned.

September 7th. In the Legislative Council yesterday, the Registration of Mining Companies Bill, was *e*d a second time. The Oamaru Water Works BilL to give power to borrow £60,000 to supply the town with water from the waiiaki River, elicited discussion. Mr Holmes said it was borrowing money at a loss of three per cent, to the country. Dr Pollen said the borrowing clause followed tho wording of the general Act, which ttxed 8 per cent as the limit. He thought no difficulty would be found in obtaining money for an enterprise of this kind. Mr Waterhouse said the Bill authorised borrowing of an amount much in excess of any amount hitherto allowed to any Municipality. The population of Oamaru was only about 3000 when they incurred a liability of £4000 a year, when their income amounted to a little over £2000. He questioned, also, if the work could be carried out for 460,000. During farther discussion it was pointed out that Mr Waterhouse, in his estimate of the income, bad not included the water rates, which would alone amount to £4000, and therefore be sufficient of themselves to pay the interest of the proposed lean. Tne Bill was ultimately read a second time.

The Plans of Towns Regulation Bill was read a second time.

In the House of Representatives at 2.30 to-day, Mr Harrison asked if the Minister of Justine would appoint a Deputy- Commissioner Of Stamp Duties at Greymouth. Mr Reynolds said the Government did not intend to make any such appointment at mo-

In reply to Mr J. C. Brown, Mr Reynolds said the Government intended to erect a Telegraph and Post Office at Havelock, Otago, and expected it would soon be ready. In reply to Mr Bradshaw, Mr Richardson •aid the Government intended to introduce a Bill to amend the Adulteration of Food Act »s soon as other business permitted. Mr Murray asked if the Government intended to take measure* to prevent overloading vessels. Mr Reynolds explained there were several Acts containing provisions to prevent overloading and overcrowding of steamers and saifrut vessels already, and the Government Kttßi then taking proceedings in one case. In reply to Mr Stout, Major Atkinson said M far as the Government knew no advertisement had been issued calling for tenders for the conveyance of immigrants, brt all the New Zealand Shipping Companies had been communicated with on the matter. Before proceeding to the order of the day, Mr Backland raised a question as to whether the Superintendents could legally hold seats as representatives in that House: He recollected Dr Featherston, in Auckland, maintaining that the Superintendents were Executive officers of the Colony. But according to the fifth clause of the Disqualification Act, no person nominated by an Executive officer of the Colony could hold a seat in the House. He wished a Committee appointed to decide upon the matter. Mr Macandrew moved that the motion be made general, and apply to everyone taking public money. 6 Mr May said that the motion would apply to all in the House.

Mr Buckland thought he had good ground for his motion, and did not want to be snuffed out in that manner. Mr Beid said the proper solution of the question waa that the House should dissolve, and all of them go before their constituents again. Mr Creighton hoped the Government would give some expression of their own opinion upon the matter. Major Atkinson did not believe there was anything in the objections raised by Mr Backland, but they did not feel called upon to interfere, if the honourable member felt there -was good ground for his motion, and bow thought a specific charge against some particular person should be made out, in order to go into the question. Mr Sheehan considered the question a mere quibble, and he hoped the honourable gentleman's own case rested upon better ground than that He thought, as the Speaker's dnty was to keep order in the House, it was the duty of the Government to keep up the status of members.

Mr Stafford denied the correctness of the latter view, and said the House would be acting derogatory to itself, and parting with their rights, in allowing the Government to become the arbiter in such cases.

Sir George Grey said the honourable and manly course for the Government would be to cay whether there was or was not any ground* for the motion. The duty of Gov« •foment was to lead the House upon the

matter, and if there was anything in it, they should postpone all other business until this question waa disposed of. Mr Richardson said the Government had already stated they did not think there was anything m the objection raised, but they did not deem it their duty to take any action regarding the motion. Mr Joseph Shephard raised the question of whether those persons referred to by the motion were entitled to vote upon the ques-

The Speaker ruled they were. Mr Stout said if the objection was held good, members of all Corporations, Itoad Boards, Education Boards, &c, would become disqualified. Mr Luckie thought the point was a strictly legal one, and a Committee was not the best body to decide upon the question. He thought Government acted very discreetly in taking a neutral position in the case, otherwise they would lay themselves open to a charge of making this move for party purposes. c J c Mr Wood thought tho course of the Government was not creditable to them. The quest/on was not one that could be decided by the House or by a Committee. The Supreme Court was the proper tribunal to settle such doubts as those raised. Mr Cuthbertson thought to discuss such a motion was a waste of time. If there had been any good grounds for the doubts raised, it would have been decided lone ago in the Supreme Court He hoped the motion would be withdrawn.

Mr Buckland asked leave to withdraw the motion, and said he would test the point in another way. r Mr Macandrew objected and pressed his amendment.

A division was taken, and the amendment was lost by 40 to 23. The motion was withdrawn.

Before going into Committee on the Abolition Bill, Major Atkinson proceeded to reply to the arguments used in the debate, and thanked the House for allowing him a reply then instead of the night of debate. He said he did not intend to follow the various speakers of the Opposition, because they bad been conclusively answered by these who spoke on the other side, with the excep. tion of the member for Akaroa (Wood), he would not reply fco, because his figures were fragmentary, and did not deal with the question as a whole. He was extremely granfied when the member for Akaroa stated that it should be in the power of the Government to remedy defective administration in those parts of the Colony not so well off as others. Coming from such a quarter, that admission was significant as an acceptance of the position taken by himself. Before going further, he would inform the House that the land funds of Otago and Canterbury would be all exhausted in two years. —(No ! from Mr Macandrew). Major Atkinson would show it was so presently. Irrespective of abolition or no abolition, the land funds of the various Provinces were liable for railways and public works within their respective Provincial boundaries. Members on the other side seemed to forget this, and think the case was affected by abolition. The Government were determined, as far as ! they were concerned, that no land should be sold for mere purposes of revenue. They intended, as far as possible, to make the land availableforthesettlementof those whom they were introducing, and those bred on the soil, who intended to settle upon the land. The honourable gentleman accepted the figures of Mr Montgomery regarding Provincial finance and proceeded to show that, with these figures, he was quite justified in the hopes held out. He estimated that, in 1877-8, the following would be a fair estimate of the land fund of the various Provinces ; Auckland, £60,000 ; Taranaki, £23,000 : Wellinei ton, £100.000 j Hawke's Bay, £17,000 : Net son, £17,000 ; Marlborough, £6000 ; Canterbury, £145.000 ; and Otago, £200.000. He did not think those estimates exaggerated. These amounts would be realised with proper management. In these calculations he had taken 3 per cent, profit over and above railway working expenses. Without pledging the Government in the matter in any way, he wished to see some scheme by which the land fund conld be relieved from the various charges now upon it.— (Hear, hear.) The Government were fully alive to the necessity of the matter, and would endeavour to provide for public works being carried on without those charges. The honourable gentleman then proceeded to show the details by which he arrived that the revenue in Otaeo S 1877 ' B S } r° U l d be £3 H474, and that there would then be a deficit of over £13,000 on her total expenditure. Mr Macandrew : That is Colonial finance Major Atkinson said his calculations were based solely upon Provincial estimates, and he had no objection to be corrected if wron c As for Ofcago and Canterbury, the land funds ot these Provinceg were almost entirely pledged for interest and sinking fund on railways, and that, too, bylaw, and irrespec tive of abolition. There could, therefore be no great inducement for a Colonial Treasurer to look forward to in the way of laying hands upon the land funds of Otago and Canterbury when, if hia figures were correct, and he beleved they were, there would only be a mere nfle left after engagements were met.

TT „ „ September Sfcb. Upon the House resuming at 7 30 last evening, Mr O'Rorke said that, before taking his seat as Chairman of Committee, he wished to say a few words upon the Bill, as in Committee he would be debarred from discussion. The title of the Bill was sufficient to show him no good was to be found within it He deprecated the proposal of the honourable member for Timaro that legislative power should be monopohsed in one central body. The Btock argument in favour of this measure was that the country desired it. But that could not be said of Auckland, nor did he believe it could be said with truth of any other part of the Colony. Auckland comprised a population of from seventy to eighty thousand inhabitants, and they hid u2 takeably declared that the frriLSkoL JSS -^wT', 1 ? makin S W« statement, said that Auckland v» a public scandal. What scandal did the Province of Auckland exb.bifc? Who could say it was due to the extravagance of the Auckland Provincial Council? The scandal rested wfth the General Assembly, who had carried

on a systematic robbery with respect to Auckland. He then referred to what was called a Thames scandal. It had been alleged that the police abetted a certain person at at the Thames election in 1869 ; but that person wan not returned, and if such had been the case, why did not the successful candidate have those charges enquired into? and he was one who would have done so if he thought anything improper had been committed. The whole charge was most unwarrantable. He considered the most repugnant feature of the Bill was the system of nominees or petty Superintendents. He believed disastrous effects would follow the nomination of officers to positions of power. He admitted Provincial Councils had undergone obloquy, because they watched lynx-eyed every item of expenditure in the interests of the people. What the General Government liked was lump sums. He would ask, bad not the people done their duty in electing the member for City JVest and others ? The honourable the Premier ought to accept the challenge held out. and go down with his honourable friend to the hustings and submit himself to the voice of the people. Speaking of the efforts of the Government to compass their object, he could not but characterise the whole system as one of bribes from the moment the resolutions were wantonly thrown down upon the floor of the House last year down to the present Bill. But poor as Auckland was she would cling to what remnant of liberty was still left to hti-, rather than in a mercenary spirit accept the bribes held out to them. This scheme of the unefaction of the Colony might confer political power on the capital of the Colony, but it would also bring political corruption. He foresaw if the Bill were passed there would follow political torpor, political stagnation, and political degradation. The Bill meant the stamping out of all those grand political aspirations which ought to influence the public of the country.

Mr Macandrew said the Treasurer told them that next year Otago would not be able to meet her liabilities by thirteen thousand pounds. As Otago contributed one third of the whole Colonial revenue, he thought it would be a poor look out for the Colony as a whole. Having listened carefully to all that fell from the Treasurer, he was struck by the utter rottenness of Colonial finance. Some of the cleverest men in the House, and acknowledged adepts at figures, had been en gaged night and day for several weeks, in trying to unravel the Treasurer's figures, but they all came to the conclusion that they were utterly fallacious, and calculated to delude—he hoped not intentionally. It appeared to be a sort of financial hocus-pocus. It was reserved for the Treasurer to discover the philosopher's stone, and make something out of nothing ; but when the present glamour was away from their eyes, they would find out that they had been egregiously deceived and would suddenly discover that not a single sixpence of the land fund in any part of the Colony would be left, notwithstanding the assertions of the Coj lonial Treasurer that afternoon. Theonly way to save it was to borrow more money, or i to apply the pruning knife to the gigantic ! Central Government. He would even do i away with the Californian Service itself, and | abolish the Native and Defence Departments. I He was sometimes inclined to think the [ sooner the Bill was passed the better, because they would more speedily get into that political chaos out of which might emerge a better order of things ; but he would not do evil that good might come. He challenged the Government to go to the country, and J concladed by avowing his intention to oppose the Bill at every stage. I Mr Stout moved an amendment to the effect that the Government should be afforded an opportunity of maturing these measures for abolition, and to Bubnut them when mai tuved, and that in the meantime no further progress should be made with the Abolition Bill. He commented upon the fact that no member of the Government dared to deal I with the financial proposals of the Bill, and no Government supporter either ; and when the Chairman of the Finance Committee denounced the Treasurer's figures as deceptive, and showed how he arrived at that conclusion, he was only answered by a phrase. He was told that his figures were grotesque, and then that they were flagrantly incorrect, but they were not answered in any way. The financial statement of last year did not agree with the statement of this, and the very figures the Treasurer gave that day did not agree with each other. The first portion of his statement did not agree with the second. According to his statement that day Otago was to show in two years a deficit of thirteen thousand pounds. According to other figures the saving over the whole Colony by abolition was only thirty thousand. If the deficit of Otago alone amounted to so much, how could they be expected to believe that the Treasurer could fulfil the promises he so liberally made. He would not dispute the power of the House to abolish the Provinces, but there was a difference between power and right, and he denied the right and expediency to do so, no msre than it would be for a Ministry to retain their seats after a vote of want of confidence in them was passed, although there was no legal form to put them off the Government benches, it would be without precedent for them to retain their seats after such a vote. The honourable member referred to the solemn pledge made last year that abolition would not apply to the whole Colony, as a great reason for applying to the country. The amount of that argument that this was an experienced Parliament, and therefore best fitted to deal with the question, was a fallacy. He considered that it was an unprecedented act to change the Constitution of- a country without showing Parliament the substitute to replace it.

Mr T. L Shepherd said great stress had been laid upon the expression of opinion at public meetings, but the machinery by which this expression was obtained was not generally known. The Superintendent had what he called an electoral staff ; the wires were touched, and these agents were told that if they could get a resolution passed againßt abolition to call a meeting. If the finances of the Colony were in a rotten state, as was stated by the member for Port Chalmers, none was more answerable for it than himself. He wa3 always prepared to do anything so long as he could purchase peace for

the Otago Land Fund. The General Govern, ment had been accused of holding oat a bribe ; but the very essence of Provincialism was bribery. For years and years the Provincial Council constantly sold large blocks of land with the object of getting money to bribe the country districts with. The time was rapidly approaching when the Colony should step in and preserve the balanoe of the land fund for the purpose of settling th«» people upon it and to allow it to be disposed of as Canterbury had done, by destroying it, and promoting large capitalists to buy it up in as large blocks as they ohose, so that now the only available land in that Province was amongst the mountains, and only fit for pastoral purposes. Mr Mervyn said that 99 out of every 100 in the country districts of Otago were opposed to a continuance of Provincialism. He opposed the amendment.

Mr Reynolds said that were he not thoroughly satisfied of his acts carrying out the views of his constituents he would not vote and act as he did. The trust remitted to him by his constituents should be well eared for. He denied in toto he had pledged himself to his constituents to oppose the abolition of the Provinces of the Middle Island. What he had said was this : If at the time the abolition resolutions for the North Island were brought down, and thoße of the Middle Island were included, he would have said "No." But now that the wish for abolition was nniversal, it was not going to leave Otago and Canterbury to be pecked at by the rest of the Colony, as would be the case provided the Government retained them alone. Under present circumstances, he considered to delay the passing of the Bill would be inadvisable. It would take a strong Government to watch Superintendents and Provincial Governments, if not to be trusted six months longer. Sir George Grey referred to the ssaartion of the Native Minister that his (Grey's) speech had a tendency to bring about the severance of the Colony from the mother country. He had since perused his speech, and found that it did not in any way warrant so damaging an imputation. On the Bill itself, he would say that, increasing it beyond a certain stage, they were hastening a bitter struggle between the minority and the majority of that House. Day by day, and hour by hour, their claim to force the Bill through diminished, and it became more and more unpardonable an offence. What was to compel the minority to refrain from voting supplies. It was always in the power of an Opposition to delay granting moneys for a very long time indeed. He felt impressed with a belief that almost amounted to a religious fervour, that the Government were pursuing a wicked course ; and once more he would implore the Government to take the wise and proper course, and by sending the Bill to the country and availing themselves of the assistance of the Opposition, to bring the business of Parliament to a close, and do aomathing to remedy the wretched position of the 6nances of the Colony. The honourable gentleman criticised the speech of the honourable member for Timaru, and denied that illustrations had any application to New Zealand, which occupied a position different to that occupied by any country ever known. He disliked the measure in every aspect, and considered its financial statement as fallacious, and the Ministry had practically admitted their first financial statements were incorrect, and the member for Parnell had unmistakeably demonstrated their utter fallaciousness. If the Government carried the Bill and initiated a system of Government by telegraph in a country where there was no hereditary monarch to take care that the Ministry did their duty, the result would be most unhappy for the country, and there would arise an aspect ot things lamentable to behold, and worse than prevailed in many of the old European countries where the distinction between the governing and governed classes would become greater, and by which the latter would be crushed by poverty and oppression. The people who came to New Zealand came here with the hopes and aspirations that they would avoid all the evils of European countries ; but the Government was doing something which tended to create all those evils — they were putting their heel upon the people. So far as he wa3 concerned, and those who acted with him, they would use every endeavour to prevent the privilege of initiating such a Constitution being; taken out of the hands of the next Parliament. He would resist the passing of the Bill by all the rules of the house.

Mr Wood said the Commissioner of Customs said the Bill should not be delayed, because it would take a strong Government to watch the Superintendents, and that Provincial Governments could not be trusted. How easy would it not be for the House to pass a Bill to prevent Provincial Councils from squandering the land fund ! He hoped the Government would accept the amendment of the member for Caveraham.

Mr Reid, referring to the statement of the Treisurer that in a year's time Otago would have to show a deficit of thirteeen thousand pounds, said it might under Colonial administration ; but if left to Provincial administration, there would be a different atory to tell. All the Treasurer promised to save by abolition was thirty thousand a year. He doubted the truth of that, and believed that the result would show they obtained a far more inefficient system than Provincialism, and at a greatly increased cost. He hoped the Government would accept the amendment. They might go into Committee that evening, and might defer all other business, but they could never pass their Bill that session. He for one was prepared to remain there for six months in order to endeavour to make the Bill a suitable measure.

Mr Fitzherbert asked whether the Govern ment were masters of the country, or the country masters of the Government ? Speaker after speaker got up and criticised the Government proposals, but they could elicit no defence nor answer of any kind. ' They were put up not to speak ; and this was responsible Government ! He called it creating a company for the monopoly of power. The honourable gentleman criticised the prepared statement of the Treasurer regarding the land fund of the Provinces, and said it was a '•fudged " statement, merely meant to meet the exigencies of the case. It was altogether deceptive. He reminded the Government that revolutions begat revolutions, and if

ibey passed this measure they would most assuredly call one into existence. He prayed, the Government to pause, and not degrade themselves by availing themselves of their physical force by passing this Bill. ' ' Mr Stout's amendment was then put, and negatived by 44 to 22. The House went into Committee en the Abolition B.UI, when 1 Mr Stout immediately moved that progreu be reported. It was agreed to. The Treasurer moved that the Bill begone on with on Thursday, at 2.30. TheOpposi. tion strongly objected, and wanted it at 7.90/ but the Government supporters kept crying out half -past two, and protested against giv» ing way so frequently to the Opposition, ; Sir Donald M'Lean announced the deter* mination of the Government to push on the Bill steadily, and then it was agreed the Bill should be gone on with at 2.30 on Thursday The House adjourned at 12.50.