Tuesday, 25th June.

Otago Witness, Issue 50, 29 June 1861, Page 3

Tuesday, 25th June.

The Council assembled at 1 o'clock. Present—Messrs. Cutten, Walker, Gillies, Todd, Steel, Martin, M'Glashan, M'Master, Rennie, Reyridlds, Hardy, Healey, Hepburn, and tHtf Provincial Solicitor. Several notices of motion having been given, Mr. Cutten, according to notice, moved for* the appointment df a Select . Committee, consisting of Messrs. Reynolds, Ronnie', M'Master, Hardy, and the Mover, to consider the whole system of Immigration. There was nearly £40,000 owing to the Government on account of Immigration, and of this about £25,000 was overdue, while only £8000 or £9000 had been collected. It would be for the Committee to devise means for carrying on Immigration, and for collecting the accounts, which was a most difficult matter. There were two plans of en-» couraging Immigration : the one to bring the Immigrants out at half price — the half of the passage money being paid in Great Britain — the other plan was to give grants of land to the Immigrants. Altogether it was a most difficult subject : as, on the one hand, there was the danger of the Immigrants going out of Otago to the new Province of Southland, as there was no natural boundary between them : and, on the other side, there was the danger of going at once off to the Gold Diggings, and thus being of no use in the labour market ; and he trusted the Committee's report would be valuable, if not in devising a plan for the present, at least to obtain such an expression of opinion as would be a guide in the future. Mr. Walker seconded the motion, which was agreed to. Mr. Cutten laid the Diseased Cattle Bill on the table. It was read a first time, and the second reading ordered for the next sitting. Mr. Walker moved the suspension of the standing orders, to enable the House to go into Committee on the Education Ordinance at once, instead of next day, as it stood on the motion paper. The Provincial Solicitoe seconded the. motion, which was agreed to, and the Houise ' went into Committee. On clause 1 Mr. M'Glashan stated that he intended to propose various amendments on ' the Bill, the first of which related to all the J clauses ; it was that the word " that" at the beginning of each clause be struck out. - This was agreed to, and clauses 1, 2, and 3, were passed without further alteration. - <■ On clause 4 Mr. M'Glashan moved as an amendment, that in place of the words "- three members," the words " persons being, or qualified to be, members" be inserted. : There were many men who did not like to mix in politics who would be very valuable members of the Education Board ; and he could not see the utility of the Council tying their- hands and confining their choice to member? of their own body. Another objection to the clause as it stood was, that in the event of a dissolution of the Council, the members would cease to be members of the Education Board.. The Council should guard against such a contingency ; and he considered that the Education Board was the most important one that was or could be constituted. The Provincial Solicitor said that this amendment would defeat the main principle of the Bill, which was to make the Board responsible to the Council. Mr. Retnolds objected to having three members of the Council on the Board,' as these and the Executive, if composed of five ' members, would give the Board almost a majority in the House. Trie thought that the * intention of Mr. M'Glashan's- amendment was, by a sort of side wind, to admit the Clergy to the Board, to which he was most strongly opposed, as, although he had the greatest respect for the Ministers of the Gospel, he did not think that they should be members of the Education Board. He would move that the Board be composed of the Speaker and the Executive. The Provincial Solicitor and Mr. Walker would not oppose this alteration. Mr. M'Glasha^ said, be was actuated by a sincere desire to make the measure as perfect a one as possible.. There were the District Judge and the.^udge of the Supreme. Court (who would shortly be located here), iwho could not be members of the Council, but would be very proper persons to he members of the EducatioQirßoard. He would therefore press his amendment ; and in spite of all the obstacles thrown in its way, and all the opposition offered to it, he contended that the old Education Ordinance had worked well. , H« hoped the present Bill would work as welT, and be productive of as much good. Mr. Cutten said -the great fault and defect of the old law was, that the. Board was not responsible to any one. The present Bill gave larger powers to the District Boards, and tbe object of the General Board was to, look after the expenditure of the money. and exercise a. general supervision. He agreed with Mr. Reynolds that the smaller the Board the more effective it would be; and if the judges werq to be members of it, they ought to be so exofficio, but he did not think they would accept the office. The Government intended to pay the Speaker of the House, and therefore if a seat at the Board was part of that officer's . duty he would be paid for it. : Mr. Martin preferred the clause as it stood to any of the amendments. Mr. Rennie supported Mr, M'Crlashan'p amendment. At this stage of the debate the Hquse resumed to receive a message from his. Honor tbe Superintendent. Message No. 4 enclosed the correspondence between the Superintendent and Messrs. Gladstone and Co. regarding the payment of the " Gala" passage money. Message No. 5 enclosed Dr. Knight's Re* BOrt, and a copy of jhe evidence taken by him. : .; Mesage No. 6 eiiclosed the cdiiesponde^ce relating to the payment t<v'Mesars. tfeyiieP ; -6'|.' the :m: mm k of £1008 ISa/MA °f which^pLtwSs \i was to^be discovered ?sfa '"the Gove]rjrt|§j&£ Books. " The House agaiss&nt into (splp|i tee on the "Education Billpfnji d|vid^?|ra&p M'GlashahV amendment, wh^

being 5 for the amendment, and 9 against it, Viz. :— Ayes. Noes. Messn. Gillies Messrs. Cutten Tosd Howorth Steel Hardy Kennie Martin M'Qlasban, teller. M'Master Kilgour , Healey Reynolds Walker, teller. Mr. Reynolds* amendment was then agreed to, as also clauses 5 to 17 inclusive, when the House resumed, the Chairman reporting progress and asking leave to sit again. The House adjourned till next day.

Wednesday, June 26. Present. — Messrs. Martin, M'Glashan, Steele» Hardy, Reynolds, Todd, Howorth, Walkers Rennie, Cutten, Kilgour, Taylor, Hepburn Healey, Purdie, M'Master, and the SpeakerMr. Reynolds brought up the report of the Select Committee on the Dunedin Athenaeum Bill. He reported the Bill without amendment, and that the Standing Orders had been complied with and the Preamble proved. The second reading of this Bill was ordered for next day. Mr. Hardy, according to notice moved, and Mr. Rennie, seconded, "That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to cause to be laid on the table of the House a statement of the amount of money expended in improving the Nayigation of the Waihola Lake since the vote of the Council in its last Session of £1200 for that purpose ; also any report of persons officially appointed by the Government to make a Survey of the Lake." Agreed to. Mr. Hardy moved, and Mr. Reynolds seconded, "That a respectful address be presented to his Honor, the Superintendent, requesting him to cause to be laid on the table of the Hpuse a statement of the Licensees of the Crown holding runs in that portion of the northern District proposed to be recommended by the Council to be declared into Hundreds, together with a statement of the number of Sheep aud Cattle now depasturing thereon, and that on the map to be submitted to the Council that portion of the country which is suitable for Agriculture may be distinguished from what is purely Pastoral." The Provincial Solicitor said the Government did not know how to comply with the latter part of the motion, but they would give all the information in their power. The motion was agreed to. Mr. Martin postponed his Notice of resolutions on the Licensing Bill till next day. Mr. Reynolds moved, and Mr. Kilgour seconded, that a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, reqeusting him to lay on the table the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor, as to the liability of the Government for the half passage money, payable in Otago, on account of psssengers per " Gala." After considnrable discussion, the motion was negatived, Mr. Reynolds being the only person who supported it. The House then went into Committee on the Education Bill. On clause 18, the words •' A certificate of Sualification from Her Majesty's Committee of be Privy Council" were inserted in the place of the words " a first-class certificate from a Government school inspector in England or Scotland." Clause 19. Mr. M'Glashan wished to strike out this clause altogether, as it would affect the independence of the teachers, who, he thought, should, be independent of the people of the district. The old system had worked well in Scotland, where the parochial teachers could not be dismissed except for crime or j moral delinquency. He would substitute the following amendment for the clause as it stood :—": — " It shall be competent to the Board, when they shall see reason, to dismiss any Main School District teacher, after due inquiry and consideration of any statement which said teacher may make in his defence." The teacher of a Main School was a Government officer, and should be independent of the District, otherwise the discipline of the school might be seriously affected. The Provincial Solicitor supported the clause as it stood, as all contracts should be mutual ; and it was absurd that the teacher should be able to hold his office in opposition to those who paid him. However well the system might work in Scotland, it had not worked well in this Province; for instance, in the case of the teacher of the N.E. Valley school, resigning without notice, and going to tbe Green Island; and in the difficulty the latter School had in getting rid of their former teacher. A contract should be equally fair to both parties. It was not a fair or advisable state of things, that the teacher should have the option of resigning at any moment, and the Committee have the power to dismiss him, unless guilty of some crime. They might have many objections to a teacher, without his beiDg guilty cf any moral delinquency, and the same man might get on very well in a different district, and there was no danger of this power being unfairly exercised by the Committees, as the General Board would have to confirm their decision, and this has been thought sufficient security by the Presbytery. If they could only be dismissed for moral delinquency, who were to be the judges ? If the General Board were to be so, they might be dragged into every court of law in the Colony. It,was the duty of the House to legislate for the people of the Province, at the same time affording proper" protection to the teachers. Mr. Rennie would support the clause as it stood. The General Board would be quite sufficient security against the abuse of power on the part of the district committees ; and if the teachers were made independent of the committee, they might become careless and indifferent. To his own knowledge the system had not given universal satisfaction in Scotland. Dr. Pordie approved of the clause as it stood, but thought the notice ought to be more than three months. Mr. Hardy said that the country teachers soon became independent of their office here ; they got other offices as a matter of course, and farmed and kept cattle on the Hundreds, and it had been almost universally found that they all got more or less careless about the school j and if they were quite independent of the' district committee, they would be less careful than if they could be dismissed if they did not give satisfaction. He would therefore j support tbe motion as it stood. - Mr. M'Glashan's amendment was put to the House and lost. Clause 22 was passed over for the present. On Clause 23 — Mr. M'Glashan was in favour of a uniform tax on land. Mr. Rennie agreed with Mr. M'Glashan. Itwas.unfair to tax the cultivated land higher than' the uncultivated ; and they might as well rate a man's cattle as his farm buildings. Mir. Reynolds thought tbe tax a fair and judicious one. Mr. Gillies thought that if there was to be any difference in the rate, it should be in favoti*H>f tbe cultivated land ; but to rate land at tiifr iiext annual value was an unfair syatenirttnd"W0 r af4 J 5 < «fli«ii'^ 1 constant revision and change, <He?th*6ught that the nearest approach to would be one on the income* bht this tyould, be impossible in this colony. . <.".,.- ,-,%?,, £p7"WJN said that there could be no just of the annual yal'ue, and it would \g front troua to niake the tax a uniform one. si|id the tax /would press heari'districts. Ty^^^P^^MW'^^- $ na * ** wou ld not, as the '^^^^M^^H-S^ into- a general fund. ii^^p'^^^oypiCi4-Jj Solicitor said it would •jskjg\is£ : 'g]3ttxie in the end, as the higher the

annual rated value of the land the less would be the sum required in the pound. At this stage of the debate the House adjourned. During the morning sitting messages Nos. 7 and 8 were received from his Honor the Superintendent. Message No. 7 enclosed the correspondence between his Honor and the Treasurer with regard to Dr. Knight's report, and the evidence taken by him, for the»information of the House, and message No. 8 the documents relating to the Waihola Lake. Evening Sitting. Peescnt — All the members except Messrs. Dick, Purdie, and Fenwick. The House, on assembling, went into Committee, and resumed the debate on the Education Bill. The Provincial Solicitor stated that the Government had no objection to the land being reduced into two classes — cultivated and uncultivated. Mr. M'GiiASHAN said that this clause was very unpopular in a good many districts. Mr. Gillies moved, as an amendment, that the woids "Barns and Stables" be omitted, and the words " not having farm buildings, with 10 acres of land attached," inserted; upon which amendment the House divided, with the following result ; — For original motion — 8. For amendment — 6. Messrs. Howorth. Messrs. Todd. Cutten. Martin. Tayler Steel Healey M'Glashan Reynolds Hardy Kilgour Gillies, teller M'Master Walker, teller Mr. Gillies moved that the words " shall be deemed to be of the annual value of 30s. per acre," be omitted ; seconded by Mr. Cuttkn, and agreed to. Mr. Gillies moved that the rate of annual value of unimproved land be made four shillings instead of two shillings. Mr. Cuttrn proposed that the rate should be fixed at three shillings. The House divided on Mr. Gillies' amendment with the following result : — For original motion — 7. For amendment — 8. Messrs. Howorth Messrs. Hardy Cutten Todd Taylor Martin Reynolds Steel M'Master Rennie Healey Kilgour Walker, teller M'Glashan Gillies, teller. The House resumed, the Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again, and the Bill was ordered to be recommitted on Friday, to consider clause 22. The Provincial Solicitor moved the second reading of the Roads Bill, which had been prepared in accordance with the resolutions passed at a previous session of the Council. The Bill was read a second time, and the House went into Committee upon it. The various clauses were agreed to with a few slight alterations, Mr. Hardy moving an amendment on the schedule, to the effect that the East and West Tokomairiro Road Districts should only form one district, to be called the Tokomairiro District. The Provincial Solicitor saw no sufficient reason for doing this. The division had been made by the Superintendent, with the advice and consent of the Executive and the General Road Board, the members of Eastern Tokomairiro alone dissenting. Mr. Gillies thought the Districts should not be divided, as they were geographically one. The only reason for the division of this District was, that some of the large owners of uncultivated land in the Western District did not wish to be taxed. Mr. Cuttrn thought the main line of Road a fair division of Districts, because it was the point to which all the bye-roads would have to diverge. Mr. Walker thought it would be unwise to re-amalgamate the Districts. Mr. Hardy was there as the representative of both parts of Tokomairiro, and had no wish to benefit one part at the expense of the other, but he believed that he was best serving the interests of that District by advocating its union. The House divided upon the question, with the following result : — For original schedule— 3. For amendment — 5. Messrs. Cutten Messrs. Gillies Howorth Bennie Walker, teller Todd . Tayler Hardy, teller The House then adjourned. Thursday, June 27. The House assembled at the usual hourPresent — All the members except Messrs* Dick and Fenwick. Mr. Martin, according to notice, moved the following resolutions on the subject of the ■Licensing Bill : — 1. That a Select Committee be appointed consisting of Messrs. Howorth, Todd, Kilgour, the Speaker and the Mover, to prepare and bring in a Licensing Ordinance. 2. That the following principles be embodied in the said Bill, viz. : — 1. That no license be necessaay for the sale of wine, ale, and beer. 2. That there be three descriptions of licenses, via., inkeepers' licenses and retail spirit licenses, and travellers' accommodation licenses. 3. Licenses after publication of application to be granted by Bench of Justices, when opposing parties may be heard. All Justices may sit who are not personally interested in the particular case under consideration of the Bench, or in the house for which license is wanted. 4. That parties applying for new innkeepers' licenses should produce the written consent of a majority of householders resident within a reasonable distance of the proposed house, ( ) yards in towns, and ( ) miles in country districts, and should also show the existence of sufficiently commodious premises previous to granting of license. 5. That on main lines of roads, inns or houses of accommodation may be licensed without consent of neighbourhood for the sale of spirituous liquors to travellers only, with provision for punishing supply of liquors to residents in the district. t 6. That no new inn, hotel, or house of accommodation situated within ( ) yards of a similar ex. isting licensed house in towns, or within ( ) miles of a similar existing licensed house in the country, be licensed. 77 Licenses called Retail Spirit Licenses, may be granted within towns, for the sale of spirits in any quantity, not to be drunk on the premises ; which licenses shall only be granted for shops, stores, or buildings inwhichnoothergootis than spirits, wine 3, or fermented liquors are to be kept,or sold. 8. That no license be granted foi the sale of spirits in any store, shop, or other place where any other goods, wares, merchandize, provisions, or other articles are usually sold or kept for the purpose of sale. 9. That no spirits shall be allowed to be kept in any store, shop, or other place where any other goods, wares, &c, are usually sold or kept for the purposes of sale, or in any room, cellar, or other place having internal communication with any store, shop, &c. : provided that this provision shall not affect bunded stores. _ 10. 'That, upon information laid upon oath that thi informant hath good reason to believe that a breach of the' foregoing provision i» being committed, constables may search, and if spirits found,, to be seized and forfeited, and offender fined. . 11. Regulations for proper keeping of lioensed house, and offences against provisions of Act, may, at option of Bench, cause forfeiture of license, in which case the party to be incapable of again holding license. 12. Spirituous liquors to be denned as liquors containing per cent, of alcohol. 13/ Penalty for drunkenness. 14. Power to three Justices to prohibit supply of liquor to known drunkards. | Mr. Todd seconded the motion pro forma. The first of these resolutions having been put to the House, Mr, Walker said he thought it would save the time of the House to oppose the resolutions altogether and at once. He had as great horror, disgust, and abhorrence of drunkenness as' the hon.-geptleman' oppositeV-wbo" seemed to wish to monopolize and arrogate to them-

selves _ the dislike of intemperance. While affirming tbe principles of free trade, it was the duty of the Government to limit the traffic in this deleterious commodity, the, ,excessive consumption of which was attended with such baneful effects. All the measures which had hitherto been Introduced for this purpose had proved melancholy failures, and it was almost impossible to frame a satisfactory Bill. The licensing question was not a Government one ; each member of the Executive might vote as he liked upon it. He himself considered that the Bill which had been introduced, but rejected by the House, was an improvement on the present law. It had been framed in accordance with the resolutions in favour of free trade passed at a previous session. They might lay restrictions on the traffic, and impose penalties for the committal of certain acts, but it would be practically impossible to enforce these enactments, because the community did not condemn those acts ; and it was better to recognize, legalize, and sanction what they could not prevent. A law which was a dead letter was worse than no law at all, and the law would have to be framed in accordance and in unison with the feelings of the community. The glory, the distinction, the proud pre-eminence of Great Britain, was owing to the recognition of the law by the people — and that was owing to the course of legislation agreeing with the current of popular feeling. The Government Bill had, he was afraid, been consigned to that limbo from which, alas ! Bills do not return ; but if there was to be an alteration in the law, it should be in a more liberal one, and not, as these resolutions were, in a more stringent one. They could never be carried out, and he would oppose them altogether. Mr. Martin had never heard, or heard of, such a speech as that of the hon. Member ; according to the same principle, if 'their people became a set of thieves they would have to legalise thieving. The Provincial Solicitor and Mr. Kilgonr objected to having their names placed on the Committee, and also Mr. Hepburn, whose name was afterwards suggested in their place. The House divided on the Ist resolution, which was carried, the numbers being — Ayes— B. Noes— B. Messrs. Steel Messrs. Howorth Todd Cutten Kennie M'Master M'Glashan Reynolds Hepburn Tayler Hardy Kilgour Purdie Healey Martin, teller Walker, toller The Speaker gave the casting vote with the ayes. Mr. Martin then moved the 2nd resolution, seconded by Mr. Todd. Mr. Cutten looked upon these resolutions as a waste of time. He believed that no Member of the House had distinct or welldefined ideas on this subject, except the hon. member on his right and left (Rennie and Purdie), all the others were wavering and uncertain, and if, therefore, any measure were to be introduced and carried by a majority of one, as by a casting vote, it would not be a satisfactory conclusion, nor would it be entitled to the respect of the community. He thought Mr. Martin had misunderstood his hon. colleauge, or rather that there was some confliction of terms between them. There was a great difference between a moral wrong and a social one; between what was really a crime and what the law made one. It was quite impossible to make people virtuous by Act of Parliament. In the old. times there was an Act to fine any of our ancestors who were not at their parish Church on a Sunday ; and it was only about ten years ago that it was removed from the Statute-book, because it could not be enforced. The only way to cure a social evil was by moral suasion. If you try to do it by force, you only excite a spirit of opposition. Soap and water were very good things for washing a man's face, but no man would like any one else to come and scrub his face with them against his will ; and yet this was what some parties wanted to do in regard to the licensing question. If the hon. gentleman on his right (Dr. Purdie) were at once to bring in the Main Liquor Law, they would have something distinct and definite to argue upon, but the present resolutions were, he thought, a Maori M.S., literally translated, it was such an extraordinary document. The first resolution was a most monstrous one, and opposed to the principles which its supporters advocate. If passed, it would be attended with the most disastrous consequences, as a similar law had been in England. Every little mud hovel would be a beer shop, and it would be impossible to prevent their selling spirits also. As to the 4th clause, he would like to know what was a reasonable distance, and who would go to the expense of putting up commodious premises, if any half dozen of his neighbours might prevent him obtaining a license. He would also like to know who was a traveller? Waß a man a traveller who was going one, five, or a hundred miles ? Clause 5 contained provision for punishing the supply of liquor, but he thought they need not trouble themselves about this, as the people would punish the supply of it. It might also be necessary, in thickly populated parts of a town, to have two public houses within a few hundred yards of each other. The Bth clause would interfere with every merchant in the place, and such interference would be out of the question, and could never be enforced. By the 10th clause a constable might rush in and search any house, even a private one. He did not mean to say that they would do so, but if the Council passed such stringent laws, the police would have the right to do it, and instances had occurred in this town which showed that they were not always very judicious in the exercise of their power. The Bench of Justices were not the proper persons to make regulations for the management of licensed houses, as the regulations would depend on who happened to be there at the time, and might be constantly changing. One time the Justices might think that a plentiful supply of water should be kept in every house, and the next week, if a different lot of Magistrates were on the Bench, they might think that cold water was quite out of place in a public house. If this was to be carried out, they would have to have wards and districts. The last two of the resolutions were the only ones that were worth a straw, but he feared they were unworkable. If they could be carried out, he would like to see them added to any licensing bill. He was sure that no member could approve of all the resolutions, and that the House would only waste time in discussing them. Dr. Purdie said Mr. Cutten had observed that the resolutions infringed on the liberty of the subject; but all laws hid this: the object of law waß to restrain what was evil and regulate what was good. He would propose that, as they were unable to frame a satisfactory law to regulate the traffic in spirits, they should at once introduce the Maine Liquor Law. Mr. Hardy did not like and could not support the resolutions as a whole, but he liked some of them. Mr. Hbpbcrn could not support the resolutions as a whole. Mr. M'Glashan moved, a3 an amendment on Sir. Martin's motion, that the House go into Committee on the resolutions. Seconded by Mr. Hepburn. Mr. Walker moved, as an amendment, " That this House disapproves of the principles suggested in the resolutions as a guide to the Select Committee in framing a new, Licensing Ordinance." Mr. Cutten said that the resolutions affected the means of livelihood of a large number of people, and they should not try and smuggle them through' the House without allowing those who were affected by them an opportunity of expressing their opinion on them. They should also remember that if they were earned they had no means of enforcing them,

as their Volunteers were not yet in a serviceable condition. He begged to second Mr. Walker's motion. Mr. M'Glashan's amendment was put and lost, and Mr. Walker's amendment was carried. The House then went into Committee on the Executive Council Bill, which was agreed to with the following alterations. To "clause 2 the following words were added :—: — "And at every meeting of the Executive Council at which he shall be present, the Superintendent shall preside, and shall have a deliberative as well as a casting vote in all its acts and proceedings ; and no act or resolution of the Executive shall have any effect unless two members besides the Superintendent shall be present. In the absence of the Superintendent from any cause, a member of the Executive Council, to be chosen by themselves, shall preside in place of the Superintendent." In clause 8, the last line was struck out, and in its place the following was inserted : — " Such a sum as may from time to time be voted by the Provincial Council," — an amendment of Mr. Gillies's, to strike out the words "ex officio" being lost. Clause 8 was atruck out altogether ; and the House resumed. Mr. Kilgour brought up the Report of the Select Committee on the Dunedin Roads and Streets Ordinance. They reported that, according to the practice of the House of Commons, the Bill was a private one ; but, as it was an amendment of a public bill, they recommended that it be treated as one also. The Executive Council, the Sheep Amendment, and the Trigonometrical Stations Bills, were ordered to be read a third time next day, and the Estimates were laid on the table, after which the House adjourned till the following day.