PARLIAMENT.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 19249, 13 August 1924, Page 5

PARLIAMENT.

YESTERDAY’S PROCEEDINGS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. (Peb United Bbe3B Association.) WELLINGTON, August 12. The House mot at 2.20. THE "NEW HEBRIDES. In reply to Mr W. .7. Jordan (Manakau), who drew attention to the conditions in the New Hebrides Islands under the condominium, M,r MASSEY said ho had drawn attention to this matter at the Imperial Conference. He had also received a deputation from a number of clergymen a few- days ago. His opinion was that there was no way out of the difficulty except to partition tho islands, giving ono portion to Franco and tho othor to Great Britain. He had asked the deputation to, express an opinion on this view, and when he received that opinion ho would communicate again with tho British Government AN GLO-R USSIA N COMMERCIAL TREATY. In reply to Mr Wilford, Mr MASSEY said he had received a communication from the Prime Minister of Great Britain on tho subject of the Anglo-Russian Commercial Treaty, hut ho scarcely liked to express an opinion on the position yet. So far as ho could judge the position from tho cables, what had taken place he thought meant that the British Government had takon up a position that was serious, the leaving of the Sovereign out meant that Iho prerogative of tho Crown was being interfered with so far as treaties were concerned. He could not look at it from any other point of view. Later he intended to express an opinion to the British Government on tho matter, and he would probably make a statement to tho House in the near future because ho looked upon the matter as being serious. THE RH’PLE DISASTER. Replying to Mr P. Fraser (Wellington General), Mr MASSEY said a thorough investigation would be held into the cause of the disaster to the steamer Ripple. At the present moment he was inclined to think that the absence of wireless on the steamer had nothing to do with it, but the House could rely upon it that the Government would leave nothing undone to protect tho interests of that section of our community who go down to sea in ships. SUMMER TIME BILL.

On the motion of Mr T. K. SIDEY the following special committee was set up to consider the Summer Time Bill: Messrs W. 11. Field (Otaki), W. ,i. Girling (Wairau), O. J. Hawken lEgmont), F. F. Hockly (Rotorua), W. J. Gordon (Manakau), J. A. Ransom (Pahiatua), S. G. Smith (Taranaki), D. G. Sullivan (Avon), K. S. Williams (Bay of Plenty), and the mover. The question of appointing a Maori member was deferred for a few days. BILLS INTRODUCED.

The following Bills were introduced by Governor-General’s Message, and read a first time: —

Fruit Trade Bill.—The Hon. W. NOSWORTHY said tho Bill provided for the control of fruit export. The Bill would bo referred to the Agricultural Committee, when evidence would bo heard on the pros and cons. Medical Practitioners Amendment Bill.— Tho Hon. Sir MAUI POMARE said the Bill changed tho name from the Board of Health to Council of Health, and gave the Council groat powers. Tho present Board of Health was a fairly representative body. Masseurs Registration Amendment Bill. — Tho Hon. Sir MAUI POMARE said tho Bill had been asked for by masseurs to rectify certain technical matters, but it was not proposed to open the door to those who were not registered within the prescribed time. Dentists Act Amendment Bill.—The Hon. Sir MAUI POMARE said this Bill provided for an extension of time in which certain people could sit for examination. In the meantime those affected would be allowed to practise. Births and Deaths Act Amendment Bill. —The Hon. B. F, BOLLARD said this Bill had been prepared b> Sir Frederick Chapman, and was mainly a consolidating measure. Motor Vehicles .Bill. —The Hon. R. F. BOLLARD said this Bill proposed to impose a flat tax of £3 on private motor cars. Motors plving for hire would also pay a tax of £2 and a license fee as well. There were other grades of taxation' which Milled with the class of vehicle. It was proposed to refer the Bill to a Special Committee. Land Act Amendment, Bill.—The Hon. A. D. MVLEOD said this Bill waa main.y a consolidating measure with one or two amendments bringing the law up to date. MOTHERHOOD ENDOWMENT BILL. Mr M. J. SAVAGE (Auckland West) gave notice of intention to introduce the Motherhood Endowment Bill.

LEGISLATIVE AMENDMENT BILL. The House then resumed discussion on Mr MASSEY’S motion that the Legislature Amendment Bill t« introduced and read a first lime. The motion was opposed by the Labour Party, which atlempted further to delay the Bill by raising a point of order that the debate could not proceed at that stage. This was disallowed bv the Speaker, "Mr J. A. LEE (Auckland East) said there was going to be no surrender about this Bill until sanity prevailed, and the measure was withdrawn or killed. A Bill of tjjis kind ought to make provisions in several directions. For instance provision should be made to prevent any party from putting a label on a man against his wishes There should also be provision against corruption, and some limit should be placed on the amount of money outsiders could expend on the election of a candidate.

Mr J W. MUNRO (Dunedin North) said the Bill showed that the Government recognised the writing on the wall, and that its days were numbered. The Leader' of the Liberal Party, by announcing support of the Bill, had committed political suicide, for it meant the extinction of the Liberal Parly, Labour would only support an electoral system based on scientific principles. Mr P. FRASER (Wellington Central) said that in 1911 tho Prime Minister had favoured proportional representation, and put it in his platform. He had suggested using it in connection with the Legislative Council. That promise had not been fulfilled. He would give the Prime Minister another opportunity of fulfilling his programme. He therefore moved —‘‘That the short title of .the Bill be: Dominion Pronortional Representation; Abolition of Legislative Council and Maori Representation Amendment Bill.” The amendment was seconded by Mr W. J. JORDAN (Manakan). who was continuing the discussion when the House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. THE MORATORIUM. The House resumed at 7.30 p.rn. Mr MASSEY moved the second rending of the Mortgages Final Extension Bill. In doing so he traced the history of what is commonly called the moratorium and its various amendments since its inception until now. A position had been reached when the moratorium as it stood to-day would expire on December 31, 1924, and the question had arisen what was the best thing to do for the future? There was a very general opinion that the moratorium was doing more’ harm than good because it was having tho effect of making it difficult to get lenders to advance money on land, preferring to loud to local bodies, from which the interest was easier to collect. In that way local bodies were coming into competition with the farmers. Then there was the cry—the exceedingly foolish cry—that thousands of farmers wore walking off their farms. That was not true. He had recently been through three of the largest provinces in New Zealand, and he saw no signs of farmers walking off their farms in large numbers. Some had to give in, but the surrender was not general, ami it was a gross exaggeration to say anything to the contrary. It was no use. going about tho country crying stinking fish. It was better to make tho best of the circumstances, and all people should take their coats off and make a special effort, and they weald pull through if we got a succession of seasons such as we had just experienced. Money was cheaper hero than in Australia, in support of which statement he cited a series of Australian quotations. Tho Bill before the House reversed tbo position under the present law, and the mortgagor would have to go to a judge of the Supremo Court and imply for a continuance of the moratorium in his case, when ho would have to show that he had a reasonable chance of recovering his position within a reasonable time. It was not necessary for him (Mr Massey) to go through all the clauses, because there was only one principle in the Bill-.-whether there should be any extension at all. There would be several amendments. one of which would probably he tho substitution of March 31 instead of Decem- , ber 31 as the date for the expiry of tho moratorium, and for thw war ' deal to be said.

In reply t.o Mr Langstono Mr Massey said it was impossible to say what amount of money was involved under the moratorium.

Mr WILFORD said that last year ho had asked the Prime Minister if he._ would procure the information asked for in the question just answered, but it was not forthcoming, and therefore the Homo had no opportunity of judging of the necessity for the present Bill. The people had been farther rmt off with the statement, that the Advances Department would meet all the farmers’ requirements, but that department had failed. It was an excellent department. Ho regarded it a.s a perfectly silly proposal to lift the moratorium at present when there was no money in the country. It would have the effect of lifting the rates of interest lo those of the bad old days when anything from eight to 12 per cent, was the rule. Wherever he went throughout the country the cry was “Do not let the Moratorium be lifter! till we can get a chance to recover.” Every big financier was in favour of this Bill. It followed the suggestion made by the. acting-chairman of the Bank of New Zealand and that was where it came from. The Bili would simply throw many farmers to the financial wolves, and there would bo tragedies wo did not wish lo see. His own .suggestion was that the Prime Minister should bring down, not this Bill, but an Amendment to the Mortgage, Extension Moratorium for a further 18 months, at the same time providing for an amendment of the Statute of Limitations, and ho moved an amendment to that effect. The Hon. A. D. M’TEOD said this was serious legislation, but ho was fully satisfied that the moratorium was doing more harm than good, and should lie terminated. It was all nonsense to say that agricultural banks would meet the position, for precisely the difficulties which had faced the Advances Department would also face the agricultural banks. What would do good among the farmers would bo long dated loans. The reference to the banks waiting to jump the valuable properties might be all very well .os a political statement, but it did not count for much otherwise, liecause everyone I mew that was not the class of business done bv the banks. The proportion of flat mortgage held by the banks was comparatively small. He knew the position was serious, but it would he more serious to continue the moratorium than to terminate it.

Mr G. W. FORBES (Hnrnmii) favoured the extension of the moratorium for IS months, and censured the Prime Minister for not being able to tell the House how many mortgages and how much money were affected by the moratorium. The Advances Department had failed to meet the urgent cases, and as the Government lot these people down the moratorium should be extended until such time as the Government was in a position to meet the farmers’ needs.

Mr MASSEY, speaking to the amendment, said he regretted that an attempt was being made to manufacture party capital out of the farmers’ necessities. It was quite evident what was going on. Farm lands were not in favour as security to-day, and if the moratorium were extended the position would be infinitely worse. The Advances Department, had been spoken of with derision, but what were the facts? Since the present Act came into operation there had been over 10,000 applicants; £8,500,000 had been authorised, while £7,663,416 had been paid out. As to the future, he had several millions in sight, but ho was not n-oing to put all this money on the market at once, and so create a boom. The Advances Department was a wonderful department, and no agricultural bank could do business anything like it. To parry the amendment would be the worst possible thing that could happen. Mr H. E. HOLLAND said the only principle in the Bill was the extension of the moratorium to the mortgagor who could satisfy the Supreme Court that it should bo extended. At the same time the Bill made no provision for a reduction in the interest charges which the farmers had to pay. Unless some such relief were given the Bill would be useless. Ho would support the amendment, although he recognised its limitations, inasmuch as it did not provide for a reduction of interest any more than the Bill did. The Labour Party’s policy was that in cases where the discharge of a mortgage had not been effected a revaluation of the securities should be made and the mortgage taken over by the State on the Ixisis of the real value. The revaluations should bo made by district boards, which should be thoroughly representative. The finance of the mortgages as between the borrowers and the State should*be arranged by the Minister of Finance, who should bo authorised to raise the money necessary, provided that not more than £6,000,000 was to he raised in any one year. The Labour Party did not wish to see any bona fide farmer driven off the land. It was not proposed to destroy the values which existed, but what they would get rid of were the fictitious values. He begged the Prime Minister not to rush this Bill, but to let the intelligence of tho House consider it with calmness and deliberation. Mr W. D. LYSNAR (Gisborne) said the Bill was not in itself sufficient. Time must be given. The taxation on mortgages and debentures must be revised, and better channels of finance must be given to settlers.

Continuing after the supper adjournment, Mr Lysnar said ho would vote for the Bill and against the amendment. Mr M. J. SAVAGE supported the idea of district revaluation boards for the purpose of arriving at the real values and giving the men who were real triers a chance to carry on. Mr J. A. YOUNG said that lots of people had speculated with money which they should have used to pay off their debts and the moratorium should bo ended in terms of the Bill, but he hoped the procedure before the Supreme Court would bo made as simple and as cheap as possible. Ho did not approve of the moratorium terminating on December 31, but he favoured spreading the period to later than March 31 if possible. , Mr T K PIDBY said the Bdl proposed to extend the moratorium in certain cases until 1926. This was an admission on the part of the Bill itself that the time had not come when the moratorium should be lifted. . , - . , Mr W. H. FIELD said it was just as serious a thing for many of the mortgagees that the moratorium should be extended as it was for many mortgagors that it should be closed. The Bill was an honest attempt to meet this position. The real remedy, however, was more money for the settlers. The trouble in Now Zealand was that our people were paying interest on inflated values, and that could not be done on real values. In many cases it would bo a real mercy to end the worry of the farmers, who had no chance of recovering by terminating the moratorium. The position might be aided by adjusting the taxation on debentures, and so diverting the money to farm lands. ... Mr W. E. PARKY said the only solution of the problem was that offered by the Leader of the Labour Party. All other methods of dealing -with the question was only walking round the edge of it. The Hon. C. J. PARR, said that all countries in the world were endeavouring to get their legislation back to normal condition.-. New Zealand was the last country to lift the moratorium. The mortgagors would receive fair play in the Supreme Court. If they could not satisfy the court that they could carry on and get through, then their position was pretty hopeless, and could it be seriously argued that the State should lake over such mortgages? Mr E. A. RANSOM said that any farmer who paid iiigli rates of interest and came through the slump was deserving of a further chance, and ho would support the amendment to afford an opportunity of giving the whole matter further consideration. particularly in tho direction of classifying mortgages. At 1.5 a division was taken on Mr Wilford’s amendment, when it was rejected by 53 votes to 25. The Bill was then read a second time and referred to tho Public Accounts Committee. The House rose at 1.12 a.m.