GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 6091, 18 August 1881, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

(Per Usitrd Press Association.)

Wbdsesdat, l.ra August. The Council met at 2.30.

It" KMI'LOVJIRST BOARDS. In reply to Mr Reynolds, Tho Hon. Mr WHITAKER said he would submit to '■' Government the question of appointing unpaid boards 11 as a medium between employers and tho unemployed. J' . FIRST READINGS. The Supreme Court Proceedings and Practice Amendment Bill and the Natives Reserves Bill (the j, Hon. Mr Whitaker) were read a first time. 0 RUNAWAY lIUSBASBB. ( !( Tho Hon. Mr WATERHOL'SE jgavo notice to aak ]j what Government iutendod to do to make decamping husbands amenable to Ihe law. GAMBLINQ BILL. 1 Tho Lower Houso returned reasons for insisting on ; their amendments in the Gaming and Lotterios Bill, i and they were ordered to be considered next day. ] LAW PRACTITIOSERS BILL. The Hon. Mr SCOTLAND moved the second reading t of tho Law Practitioners Bill. 1 The Hon. Mr WHITAKER, in a long speech, while t admitting the present system was open to amend- _ ment, moved the throwing out of the measure, which f would result prejudicially to the community. 1, Tho Hon. Mr WILSON supported tho bill, though a he would require it in Cornmitte to be so altered that r. i only one branch of the profession (barristers) would _ : come under the bill. t. The Hon. Mr REYNOLDS supported the bill. i i The Hon. Mr HART pointed out that in Kngland it c * : had been found necessary to make the process of ti admission to tho bar more stringent than formerly. a 1 The Hon. Mr WATERHOL'SE supported the bill, v subject to amendments, aDd contended that it would *' result in benefit to both profession and public. He st 1 stated that Mr Travers, who recently con- r < demned rascally bills of costs, approved of the general n: prmceples of the measure. " ~] The Hons. Captain FRASER and Hr GRACE ?< opposed the bill, on the Iground that the lawyer.' w monopoly was a most useful one to the State. ge At 6 p.m. the debate was adjourned till 7.30. A si Evening Sitting. fr Tho Council resumed at 7.30. nl LAW PRACTITIONERS BILL. ,1, The Hon. Messrs P. BUCKLEY, G. JOHNSTON, ACKLAND, WILLIAMSON, PEACOCK, Colonel _. BRETT, and Dr POLLEN spoke against the bill. di The Hon. Mr WIL-ON mentioned that the Chief ot Juatice approved of the principle, provided there was ~v , a high examination. *'*■ Tho Hon. Mr SCOTLAND replied, and the bill was w] thrown out by 20 to G. j n For the bill—Messrs Dignan, Lahinann, Martin, ac Scotland, Waterhouse, Wilson. w ] Against tho bill— Messrs Acland, Baillie, Brett, ,ji, Buckley Q., Chamberlain, Fraser, Grace, Hart, y ( Johnson G., Mantell, Menzies. Miller, Nurse, Peacock, re Peter, Pollen, Robinson, Whitakor, Wigloy, Wil- aII liamson. j n

Tho Biblo-in-Schools Bill was passed through Committee, with an amendment that no teicher should be compulsorily present while tho Bibio is being read. Tho Council rose at 10 p.m.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wed.vesdat, 17th August. The Houso met at 2.30. THE TBLEORATn STRIKE. Mr HUTCHISON presented a petition from Alfred J. Renner, telegraphist, praying for compensation for loss of occupation by the action of tho Government in forwarding "his name to New South Wales in connection with the recent strike. REI'MES TO Qt'KSTIOSB. Replying to Mr Wright, The Hon. Mr. HALL said that as soon as a surveyor could bo spared, ene would bo instructed to ascertain the most favourable route for extension of tho Mount Somers lino to the coal measures on the Stour, with the view to tho execution of the work by a private company under the Railwa'vs Construction Act. Replying to Mr Wright, ' The Hon. Mr HALL said inquiries as to tho necessity for making tho North Sqlwyn goods siding a flagstation and providing the necessary platform would be ade. • ■ ■■ ■ Replying to Mr Finn, The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said a lock-up at Quoensown had been recently erected. Replying fo Mr Reeves, The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said a roservo would be iid out for cemetery purposes at tho junction of the Main Qrey Valley and Maori Gully roads. Replying to Mr Reeves, The Hon. Mr HALL said that inquiries would be made as to the advisability of reducing passenger fares on tho Bruuner-Greymouth lino. The line had beon an expensive one, however, and Government would have to see that somo profit was made out of its working. Replying to Mr Gibbs, The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON s\id Government did not consider a Board of Inquiry necessary re the granting of mineral leases for Collingwood goldfields. The Waste Land Board, Nelson, had not granted any mineral or agricultural leases. Notwithstanding an advorso report from tho Warden, the Commissioner had granted a mineral lease within agold-miningarea, and this had been dono under legal advice. So faras Government was aware, applications for agricultural leases on the Collingwood goldfield were 'made to the Warden in tho usual way. Replying to Mr Ormond, Tho Hon. Mr ROLLESTON stated Governmeni would produce a statement of the position of the land purchase fund and land purchases in tho North Island, and would make a statemont as to what was further p oposcd to bo done in the mattor o* these land p-irohases boforo considering the Railways Construction and Land Hill. Replying to Mr Georgo, The Hon. Mr JOHNSTON said the Government did not intend waiving its rights under tho bonds cntored into for reimbursing the Telegraph Department for any deficiency occasioned through the opening of telegraph-offices iv cortain districts. Legal advice was being taken as to whether these bonds could bo enforced after tho Government had raised the tariff at those stations, as was done last session. Roplying to Mr Finn, The Hon. Mr JOHNSTON said inquiries would bo made as to the necessity for reopening tho post-office at Kawarau Bridge, near Arrowtown. Replying to Mr Lundon, The Hon. Mr JOHNSTON said Mr Mann, telegraphist and postmaster at Kawakawa, had been challenged for signing a requisition asking a person to allow himself to stand for a seat in the Houso of Representatives, and promising his bo^t endeavours to secure that person's return. Such an act was in violation of the Civil Servlco regulations Mr Mann's roply was that his name had boon used without his sauctlrn, and ho had had it erased from the requisition. Keplying to Mr Woston, The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said claims for a reward for the discovery of a goldfield at Sovonty-mile Beach West Coast, had been disposed of, and unless some

3 thing new had cropped up he saw no reason for disturbing the adjustment already made. 3 Replying to Mr Weston, t The lium Mr KOLLESTON ar.id Messrs Giles and Muiier's report on the charges preforred by Warden ' Stnuiord against Tom Keni-iek, late clerk of the Wart den's Conrt at Oeymout.h, had heea received, but Qo- ) vernment did not consider it advisable to reproduce it. Replying to Mr Weston, ) The Hon. ilr DICK said the final report of tho Judi- ) cature Commissioners would not be ready until No- . vouiber, and could not possibly he dealt with this S MOTIONS CARRIED. p Tho following motions were aiopted :— •*** ■ By Mr SEDDON-" That letters and telegrams re--3 ceived by Government from county councils, local , bodies, aud persons, relative to tho abolition of the 1 gold duty, bo laid before tbo House." ■ By Mr GISB'RNE-" For a return showing the 3 revenue received during tho w-hole aggregate period s of the last 15 years in tho following rovonue depart- ' ments respectively, viz. — Customs, Stamps, Post- , oflice, Itaihvays, and Land; also showing tho per- : . cent-age of ths cost of collection of each of those ' branches of revenue during that aggregate period and J further stating tho amount of defalcations in each f branch during the whole of that time." By Mr MURRAY—"For a return showing tho amounts paid from 31st March, 18S0, to date to any 3 lawyer or legal firm for any work done for GovernI ment, whether in court or otherwise." By Mr MURRAY—"For a return showing the cost 1 and incidental expenses of each Committee of the House of Representatives in the year 1880; also, a return of the like expenditure during the present session, and if possible to be laid before the House ■ before the prorogation of Parliament." I REPRESENTATION BILL. On the motion for going into Committee on tho Rei presentation Bill, Mr WOOD moved as an amendment—"(t) That in the opinion of this House the basis of representation should be, as nearly as may be practicable, population ; (2) that the estimate of population for the purpose of representation should coueist of Europeans and Maoris combined, and that ' The Maori Representation Act, 1860,' with the continuing Act, should be repealed." Tbe object of tho second resolution, ho said, was to do away with the special representation, and to placo Natives on a footing of equality with Europeans. It had always been admitted that the Natives were not an inferior race, and that they were entitled to equal lights with ourselves. In 1837 au Act was passed giving them special representation, the reason given being that the tenure of the lands was complox, and it was to last for five years. Jt had been renewed from time to time since thon, and he contended the time had now arrived for'repealing it altogether. Since the Act was passed the title to Maori laud had beeu simplified, and a great many held their lands under Crown grant. There were anomalies in their position. For example, if 10 of them held a joint interest in -a - Crown --grant for property worth £1000 they -could not exercise the franchise. Their properties.required to be be individualised, aud the Premier told them that It would be time enough to extend the franchise to the Natives when the individualization was effected.'- He had, however, to remind them that since that policy was enunciated they had liberalised the franchise, and yet in doing so for themselves they had actually restricted the (.privileges of their Maori fellow colonists. If they had equal electoral rights with the Europeans, then there would be no further need for the special representation. In theory the great principle was one law for both races, and yet in practice the Government opposed his efforts iv that direction. The objection had been made that the Native members formed a block vote. He reminded them that in any question before Parliament the Government had only to utter the,magic words " Ministerial question," aad then they had a block vote. It was only within the last few* years that the Natives • had shown the slightest tendency towards forming a block; and considering the treatment they had received at the hands of the Government, It was not astonishing. The changes he proposed would he to greatly extend the political influence of the Natives. There were at present 10,000 of a Native population, and if they went as he proposed, instead of four they would have at least six members in the House, and there would be at least other two members « ho would to a large extent be identified with tho Native interest. It was a perfect reproach that they should have extendeJthe franchise to themselves and yet restricted it to the Natives.

Mr SWANSON agreed in the proposition that the proposal (or equal electoral rights to both races waa tho right one, and he.could uot sco on what grounds tho claim could be lesisted. The best course that could be followed for breakii.g up the King movement was to give these refractory Natives votes, and induce them to come to that House aud ventilate their grievances. It would not only benefit the Natives, but It would also bent-fit tho Europeans.

,' Mr TAIAROA agreed with the spirit of the amend- |; ment. He was 'afraid, however, that it would at pre- -- sent bo premature to propose it for the Natives. They it were naturally suspicious of these sudden changes. = . What he suggested was that tho point should be al--1( lowed to stand over until next session, and in.the' meantime they would have an opportunity for circulating and explaining tho proposal for the information ie and guidance of Native opinion. . While to a certain extent agreeing with the amendment, he would forthe >1 reason stated vote against it,. ,| Major TE WHEOKO suggested that the experiment j. should be made of continuing tho special rcpresenta- ' tion and the rep escntation proposed by the amend--7 ment to be given, so as to enable the Natives to uulu derstand ihe exact bearing of tho proposed change. Unless that was done, he would vote against any attempt to disturb existing arrangements. ... , J DJOL'RNMEXr. The House adjourned at 5.25. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. RKI'ItESaSTATION BILL DERATE. The Hon. Mr HALL trusted they would not adopt ■rf the amendment. The first clause was very vague. When the time came that there could b; one law for 51 both races lis would gladly second tho motion for A giving the -Maoris increased representation. If they c had been left to the operation of the Constitution Act, they would have had no voice in the Legislature y. at all. In giving them tho special representation the I- Colony went out of its way to suit it to them There d were many laws in operation which showed „. they were not on a footing similar to Europeans. It was not the case that there was or could bo one law for both races, and consequently it was not right to the Europeaus that they should have equal representation. What in fact was asked was tliat they should be allowed to impose laws on us which they refused to obey themselves. He saw tho dawn of a better state of things, but its consummation was still at a distance. Then again, tho Maoris were not willing to give up the special representation. Tne reason the membars uava themselves was that they did not qulto understand the force of the proposed change.. If special representation was done away with, and they were left to the ordinary operation of ono electoral law, he believed their political power would disappear altogether, or else would be h inded over to the worst >o cla-s of Europeans, 'then again, those who held their 1' property under Crown grants had the right to vote *i- tor the European'repre-entatlvea. .That ii>;ht ought not to be lost. He believed that the North Island had a great future before it; and when it did become :e entitled to increased representation by increased ie population, he deelased that no one would be more willing to voto for it than ho would bo ; but he utterly demurred to give it a representation ostensibly for tho k Maori population, which that population neither g wanted nor-could make good use of. *: ■ - Mr TOMOANA urged the importance of delailn-jf the question till next session, so as to enable'the n Native population to acquaint themselves with the I, nature of the proposa s made. At p.esent he could not support the ameiidmtut. .-,:.■,. .*; Mr GISBORNE could only account for the comparag tivc silence observed by Ministers on ithe. subject on tne assumption that they were ill at ease in respect ol o the step proposed. He could not see how it could bo - otherwise, seeing these proposals would virtually diei franchise 40,000 of the population, Referring to Westland and Nelson, he taid they, had by the unfair i administration of the Public Works policy reduced the '. population of these districts, and having done ;so they now proposed to tako advantage of their own acts to reduce the representation. The .bill before them did not fulfil the , conditions of tho bill promised when Government ' took office in 18/9. He could .'not agree with the amendment, am} when the prqper time camo he would move as a further amendment to the first clauso— " Provided that the total number of members at present returned by any provincial district shall hot be reduced." Tho only way to decrease the number of members was to provide a proper system of local selfgovernment, but until that waa done, any attempt at reduction was manifestly unfair. He could not agree with the proposal, to abolish thp. special Maori repro/ seutation and substitute the ordinary representation. A proposal of that.kind demanded more mature con--slderation than could be given to if. Ife gathered from the Maori members that thoy themsolves were not well disposed towards the change, and-that would weigh.with him. Tne bill generally was likely to pro, duce dangerous,revolutionary changes Mr MOSS said that out of 41,000 Natives there wore not more than 10,000 amongst whom the Queen's writ did not travel. Governmenthadbeeneonvchientlyiilont on tho subject that theso 10,003 disaffected Native! would not be upon the electoral roll, and consequently it would be only the law-abiding members of the race who would exercise the franchise. Ho had the moat ' implicit confidence in tho senso of justice which actuated the South Island ; but seasons might come when th y might bo carried away by blinded prejudice, and in that case there was no saying what Injustice they might not bo ready to perpetrate. For that reason he objected to the North Island being left to any abstract sense of justice. It ought to be placed in a position to assert its own position. Tho Maorle would be enabled to make themselves more fairly felt under the ordinary representation than they could | possibly succeed in doing under the special representation system.

ilr LUNDON spoke in support of the amendment contending that, in refusing to grant the representation sought for by tho Maoris because thero was a factious remnant amongst them, the Government were doing a groat injury to tbe largo section by whom the law was observed. ' ~

■ Mr HURST said that the increase of population ai between the North and South Islands, as shown bj> the census returns, did not exceed 4000; and that fact, he contended, did not warrant the wfde difference ln the representation proposed by this bill. 'Constitutod, as they were, a largo board of works, proporty should, ho contended, be properly represented in Parliament. A population of thousands'might --uddonlr turn up on a goldfield and as suddenly disappear; and yet, according to tho principle of this bill; that force of circumstances was to be accepted as a ground for representation. - *

Jlr SPEIGHT said the bill was incomplete, as It did not njiko provision for introducing olio low for both r'accj. It. was a mere sham for them to talk about being prepared, when the time arrived, to' give additional representation !o the Natives, while no provision whatever was made so as to bring about the arrival of that time. Their purpose apparently wm to allow the special representation to gradually drop down to zero, and then amalgauute the t'wq racoe under one law. This was most unfair. The right of representation was a right inherent la the man himself, independent altogether of circumstances. A groat deal of importance had beon attaphed by Government to the Maorj members'" expresie*} opinion that the special representation should! not bj abolished. He reminded them, however, "that tbe same members actually stonewallod the Maori Pro, vineos (? Bill, and yet that bill was now tho boast of the Government. The interpretation he put upun tho Maoris' opinion on the subject was that they felt that 11 representation on a population basis wos given to the Europeans this year, they would next ses<lon ba entitled to demand special Maori representation in proportion to population also. This would give them four more members; but thoy would never get tho claim allowed. In dealing with great principles, he quite believed that every part of the Colony would be prepared to do justice to tho other; but when questions of public works were concerned, a very different stato of things was bound to exist. On that ground ho objected to the large preponderance of political power being placed in the hands of Otago and Canterbury. Ho would vote lor the amendment. Mr ANDREWS said tho Maoris ln this debate had -imply been made a stalking-horse. What was wanted ... was additional representation for the North Island. He thought it was time the special representation was done away with. Ho would voto for tho amendment.

Sir GEORGE GREY contended, in opposition to the Premier, that representation should precede tho observance of tlie law and the payment of taxes. He had no intention of impugning the senso of justice which actuated the South Maud ; still he protested against the inequality of representation to the North. Dr WALLIS objected to make the Maoris a Btalkinghorso for increase of tho North Island representation. Tho Maori members wero the best judges of what would be host for them. As they had said they did not wish the change.ho would vote against tho amendment.

Mr MURRAY contended that the larger they mode the House thoy would mako it tha more costly, and render it the less oflicie.t. The exclusion of the Chinese iv the South, and the greater part of ths Maoris in the North, was unfair. The Maoris wero the largo landowners ol the Colony. They were ten times richer in land than Europeans. Their special representation had not been a success. Tho presence of their members in the House was an injury to representative government. With such largo proporty rights it wa- just thai thoy should have a voice in the other Chamber. A gain, ho contended that they ought to have a representative right in respect of their pro--perty qual fication**. Ho did not believe that Canterbury and Otago would be found doing any great wrong to tho other parts of the Colony. Thoy wero constantly told that theso Provincial District! had got all their railways made, and having suoceede*!

in that, they were tho mora likely to assist othor ploco3 in securing similar rights. Mr SHEEHA.N 6oid ho was one of those who declined to give his oßaont to the proposition that population should be the sole basis. He denied that the country should bo placed on the same basis as the towns. The former, from the scattered nature of its population, required moie representation to make its wants known. Ho deprecated the adverse criticism passed upon the Mao* i members, alleging that in tne four members of the House thoy had men who could equal any man or set of mon in Parlla. ruont. The charge mado against them o turning suddenly from one sldo to another was only what had been practised on many occasion by European members. The North Island had a right tora'ikalougwlththeSouth Island. Hewaswellpleased to see the South prosper -, at the same time ha was quite nlivo to the fact that before long tho North would outstrip the othor in the march of progress He scouted the assertion made that the Maoris were in open revolt when tho representation was at first given to the Maoris. The greatest possible impetus was given towards tho settlement of the Maori dim ulty. It was not perceptible at first, but time had shown it. The increase of the representation, he contended, would have a still further beneficial influence in that direction. Ho had littio hope of seeing the amendment carried, but he would nevertheless vote for it.

Mr TURNBULL argued that the Natives were perfectly right not to give up tho special representation for what was a mere shadow. He would vote against the amendment.

Mr Li-.VESTAM argued that the principle of the bill was that population should be represented, and yet they refused to apply that principle to the Maori population. It was not a question of principle, it was limply a question of expediency. He would support the amendment. Mr GEORGE contended that in proposing to tax Nativo lands the Government could not in fairness oppose the amendment. Ho was not sure the amendment would not be carried, at all events he" would vote for it.

Mr SEDDON contended that, to bo consistent, Government ought to be prepared to abolish tho special representation and allow too Maoris to go in under the ordinary franchise. Captain COLBECK advocated the right of the Maoris to equal representation. At 1.10 o.m. Mr WEsTON moved the adjournment, which was opposed by tho Hon. Major ATKINSON, and lost on the voices.

The original motion for going into Committee was then put, and carried by 40 to 19. The following waß the division list: — Ayxs. Messrs Allwright, Atkinson, Bain, Barron, Beetham, BoweD, Bryce, Bunny, Collins, Fisher J. B. (Buller), Fisher J. T. (Heathcotol, Hirst H. (Wallace), Hurst W. J. (City of Auokland West), Johnston, Levin, M'Caughan, M'Lean, Montgomery, Murray, Oliver, Reid, Rolle«ton, Saunders, Seymour, Shanks, Sbrimski, Stevens, Studholme, Sutton, Taiaroa, Te Wheoro, Thomson, Tomoana, Trimble, Turnbull, Wakefleld, Wallis, Whitaker. Nobs : Messrs Ballance, George, Gisborne, Grey, Harris, Hutchison, Kelly, Levestam, Lundon, Pitt, Russell, Seddon, Shephard, Swanson, Tole, Weston, and Wood.

Pairs : For—Messrs Msorhouse, Wright, Jones, Hall, Fox, Stewart, Richardson, Fulton, Macandrew, De Lautour, and Finn. Against Messrs Tawhai, Hamlin, Reeves, Sheehan, Colbeck, Bastings, Andrews, Speight, Ormond, and Gibbs. The House went Into Committee. Clause 1 (short title) waa agreed to, and progress wos reported. The Hguse rose at 1.30 a.m.