HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 2318, 10 July 1869, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

(Hansard— June 16th.) TITO KOWARU AND TR KOOTI. Mr Ceikiohton said fch*t he would endeavour to bo ae bnef bb possible in moving the resolution standing in his name. Honburafcle members would see that the motion wra*****'' divided into two parts ; the first asking foiany correspondence, proclamations, notices, or letters which might have been written by any member of the Government, authorising or promining tho payment of a reward for the odies of Tito Kovvaru and other natives in arms against us; and tho second asking fo-a return of any sumo of money paid in pursuance of »ny such notice or proclamation. He regretted that it should have been necet-l, sary for any member of the Houße to put such a notice on the paper, becauee on lookin? over the despatches from tho Secretary of St te for tho Colonies, ho found that the attention of the Government had been called very pointedly, by E»rl Granville,to tbo mmoors on this subject, which his lordship had seen in the Hew Zealand papers ;*nd he {Mr Creighton) had hoped tnafc the Government would havo taken the Lint, and y havo placed eufficient information before that I. i House, although t>>ey might not havo felt it to bo thoir duty to iuforin the Imperial Government of tho steps that had * een ttkent in this matter. In the despatch. No. 35,.,0f^ date tho 25 th February, Earl Gran villa wrote :— " Lastly, I see it stated in thh newspapers, ■ that you havo offered a reward of LlflOO for fcbo person of the Maori chief Tito Kowam—» -"■ I infer alive or dead—and L5 for the person* of every Maori rebel brought in alive. Ido not pronounce any opinion at present as to tho propriety of these steps ; but I most oh* serve that they are so much at v*r anoe with tho usual laws of war, and appear at first eight so much calculated to exasperate Mid extend hostilities, that they ought to hare been reported to me by yon officially, with, the requisite explanation, which 1 should, now be glad to receive." The honourable gentlemen at tho head ? f the Govi-rnraont had written a mimorandnmv und«r date the 21st May last, aud addressed, to th» Governor, in which be alluded to the. pawnee of Lord Granville's despatch which had jnut been r^ad to tho House. The honourable gentleman wrote :— •• E*rl Granville aslts for information respecting an alleged offcr of a reward of LlOOd for the capture of the chief Tito Kowara. The report wbi^h has reached t-hp Co!oAiftl Office la c-xnctly Ihio, as also the inference drawn by his Lordship, that it was implied in tho offer that tho reward would bo given f«r the body of Tito Kowaru alive or dead. Ministers regret if this otfnr has not been reported in the copious minutes of events furnishf'd to His Excellency for tranßminion. bv every mail. It is right now to add that; a tiimiliar rcw?rd on the same teims has been offered for tbo body of Te Kooti, th* leader in the outrages on the East Coast"— (H«ir. bear.) Perhaps whm the terms of the rewnrd had befn placed \ o'ore the H« use, honourable membprs would not care to cheer a* they hnrl jnst done Tho honourable mem- - ber at tbe head of the Govemm' nt proceeded, to draw historic»l para''ela. by way of illustrating the conduct of the Governmmk. * > H<* supposed that the honourable gcntleman. arpied that, as Bis Excellency was ie they bftbit of > rpf<'ninK to events 'hat h*d t*ke& place in other country s by w.*y of illustrat-, mcr the so' ial and political phenomena of New Zealand; it wonld be a very proper way ia wbich he himtelf mijiht expres* his opinienst on th'g subject He could not. however, coa- , . pra'ulate the h^ooura^le gentlemso on fb« ; manner in which he bod made hi» compwi* sons. Th« bononrable gentleman wn te :-—, 1. *' v k*\ Gnnville suspends his judgment as u " to the propriety of these steps on tho ground '^ thnt they are 'much at variance with th* usual laws of war/ When his T ord&hip ehaU , .' have h^d hi*nre to consider the derails o£ th<» acts of Tito Kowaru and Te Kooti, b* will. pcrhnpß come to the .coDc!»Kif>n that their atrocities are happily ss f xcepticnal a« the course, adopted \i ith a view to their* punishment. But tho offers in qu< stion a»« not without precedent in tho history^ of ih* mntiny in India, and even of the Fenian outMg« within the heart of the VmteA K^n^r doui. Every atrocity of the S*poy relellioat r'' has been paralleled and outdone in the raidsv' burnincs, vibUtions, tortures, murdtwi, and. canninalißtt of the Jast'nine'months in K«r'' Zealand, and with less provocation or excuse." \ , He entirely denied th*t the prcotediaps of even the last nine months, on the part c£ Tito Kowaru or Te Kooti, are at all on a parallel, or to he placed in comparison, with.

the atrocities committed by the Bengal ti«* ipoy» during the Indian mutiny. TheScpW* w«^e,di«ci>?inc4 raen---m«ni» the p*y of t"? <3overanie'*fc. commanded, by officer* li'Ming Her Maj«;»!y*s commuwion, and, had bf en for years, and then Were, subject to »i *»T discipline. They were: men who, V'**" they oiatiniedL, slaughtered their officers, and committed those- othw atrocites of which *\l had read, w«!l» knowing that if they were defeated by ibe Brilwh power they would suffer thie ptiniabment .of death Jor acts of miJlifcary insabordmation. Tb© New ZeaUndors, w> far at least as concerned thoje of them under arms against tb/» Crown, had never owned allbgSnce to fcbo Britbh power. We might flay that they were British «u' jecte; but fat all events, they bad never bem disciplined or brought under the subjection of law. Although wo ratgbfc r*»grefc tbe atrocities committed by Tito Kowara and his followers, and htytwvQt repugnant *uch deeds might be to car feelingfl, they wwo not at all uuuaaal in Maori warfare. J>uring the first few years -of tlHr struggle with tho British arms, the Maoris did not commit atrocities of this kind. But he maintained tint tht Maori had been driven almotfcto desperation by the long continued struggle in -whicla ho had enSaged with pur forces—a struggle which the laoii himedf must cce to be hopeless; and it was only tho outcomtt of the nature of savage mau. that led them to commit the atrocities which we all deplored. Heregrettcd, therefore, that the honourable gentlemen at the head of tho Government should have drawn the historical parallels he had drawn, in justification of what, perhaps, might have been justified on other ondsuffioitntgrounds. Ho did not think that tho allusion made by the honourable gentleman to the rewards offered /or the apprehension of Fenian leaders in Ireland, was at all juwtifiod by anything iikopataJWißm with the present case; but he need not pursue that part of the subject further. He found, on referring to the newspapers, that a reward was offered, on the 27th February last, of LIOOO for Tito Kowaru, dead or alive, with this condition, to which—not to the reward—ho entirely objected, tho condition being that the money should be paid only if Tito Kowaru was captured or killed in any other way than in an open emnpement. He maintained that that -was a elenr inducement to craft and junbush, and by foul or fair means to deprive Tito Kowaru of his life. He did not stand tbere as the apologist of any TebeJ; but he could not forget that we were civilised men and Christians, and that we were at least; not setting that example to the Natives in this warCare that wo ouikht to eet them. He repeated that he thought tho Government ought to have laid before tho House the papers for which ho was now asking. He might explain that ho had appended the second part of the motion, because he had seen it mentioned in the newspapers that the Hon. the Native Minister had authorised the payment of UK) to Bomo person who reported, or who proved, the death of Nikora, who he (Mr Creighton) believed was one of the chiefs killed at the capture of Ngatapa. Motion made, and qiu-etion proposed, " For copies of all Proclamations or Notices -offering rewards for tho capture of Tito Kowaru ond Te Kcoti, or other Natives in arms against the Government, and Corres pondtnee Mating thereto ; also, a Ueturn of the Amounts <>f Money paid in pursuance of euch froclamations or Notices, to whom paid, and for what consideration."—(ilfr Creiyldon.) Mr Hall said that the Government had no •objection to the production of the documents moved for. He thought he might congratulate the House on tho fact that the honourable member who had ju«t spoken, and who bad taken the seat of the late member for Newton, bad also adopted the mantle of that gentleman, bo that the poor, oppressed, injured, long-tuiffermg rebel Maori would not a champion on tho floor of this 5f 'jj-y-^o. The Government was not at all dm "H^Broed to sgrf<* that the cflur of a toward for fie capture of Te Kooti or Tito Kowara was •opsn to the ot jeetione stated by the honourable member The honourable member in criticising a memorandum ' y the Colonial Secretary, which compared tho atrocit'.eß (committed by the Hauhaus with those of the Sepoys, said that there was no parallel between the two. A Mimmary of the speech of •the honourable member amounted to no more 'thauths: ''These atrocities are natural to JMaoriu. They are what we might expect ' Maoris to commit; therefore they are ex--cußable, and not events at which we should fbe surprised." In reply he (Mr Hall) would * say, wben two set« of men were carrying on war, one of whom refnsrd to recognise—-did not, in fact, know anything about—the mages of civilised warfare, and when tbo tw-» -were tvenly matched, so that one could not -afford togivo away any advantage, it waa an ■ absurdity to talk of ono of the parties con* sonting to have his hands tied by cufctoms and usages which the other could not and never •did recognise hb part of ita Byetem of warfare. The honourable mornber had said that there was more excuse for tbe Supojs, because they had placed themselves in such a position that, if they were not conquerors, they knew lhat thtir lives would be forfeited. Mr Ckkiohton : No; I did not say that that was any excuse for tho Sepoys. On the contrary, I said that the Sapoya, being disciplined men, \w\ no excuiso whatever, and that tho severities exercised towards them, when tho mutiny was suppressed, were sim« ply a giving effect to the rules of the service which those men had transgressed. Mr Hall need not go further into that point. Ho would, in the general course of warfare between European'and Natives of thji asland, be ono of the faet to approve of such * .extreme measures as the Government had •felt bound to adopt in this instance. Bus when (such ntrocitiea were committed as the massacre at Poverty Bay, in which unoffund. ing persnnß, living on land that never was -confiscated, but was occupied by consent of Native bvrncra, "\vero attacked in the dead of 'the ni;',ht, ac«l men, women, and helpless ibabes ivi the breast, were unordered in cold blood, and overy conctiva- le kmd of a'rocity ■■was committed, in such a caao wo inunt con- • cludo thifc tho devil bod taken possession of these fanatics in such a way that there was no use in holding out to them any idea of <meroy or of life. The honourable gentleman Shad stated that thero wnu some excuse for 'those rebels ; but what were tho facts ? 'Those very men wore taken with aims in •^.oir hands, at Omnramii—they were taken •led-handfil ; and, quite contrary to the •course which they would have adopted with European prisoners, all their lives wore spared. Tho men were sent to the Chatham "~ Islands, and were exceedingly well treated there. What was the return they made to us? The Poverty Bay massacre—massacrea in every other p'sco where they could take -unoffending settlers by surprise—maasacrea in which not age, nor sex, nor anything tlae, waa respected. Th»se were the returns which men, whose lives were forfeited by •thnir own laws as well as ours, made to us ■for sparing their lives. Their case waa worse than that of tho S«poys. The bononrablc member had s*id that we-ought to set these men an example. That .example we had. set them at Omaranui. It had failed to have tho trffoct we raicht havo hoped it would have. Granttd, the extreme measures which hid been adopted wero Bucb. as no Government should adopt except under the pressure of very extreme circuoastances j but be said that, m the eyea of this country, and,.he believed, of tho civilized world, the Govern•ment would be held justified in the course it ■.had adopted. .■"'"'■ Major Brown said that, while listening to the fconoura-»!e member for Newton, he almost thought that he was listening again to a friendly native whom he...knew. That named Sana Peko, on the occasion, of a sortie bring made, said to him (Major Brown), that the Qaeen'a soldiers ought to be ashamed to do anything of the kind, because: they knew better ; but tho poor Maoris did not know better, and that, therefore^: they could::not : ; rbe found fault with if they laid ami. ushes and carried out ■ >-»urpriae«.--r:rr':v';:'' ■'■'" ■'--'r'V;: ■ .'■.'-.-.''-"'"■.-/•' Mr Hi S-Hajibison was sorry when he jgaw this motion tabled. Although' he .-should much regret to aeo the Maori rebels

at any enemies against the Crown fooght by mean* of proclamations and rewards such a* »hfw* referred to in tfco jnotfon; yet, when £uoh ogrc«, jrncfa obscene bcaatu of prey, as i'l'itp Kowira iod T« Keoti appeared, he tUbagHt flie (Joyeniinent was lmpctiitively , ceiled upon to adopt such a course of "action,* And thai the lets iwid abotit it the lietttr. He not oniy regretted that the motion had been tabled, but lie hoped that none of the information asked for would be supplied by the Government..V..-: 'U'-ivV-i?'.-';^'':- ..-^■■■■■i A Mr DiLtosr Bell was glad to bear most of the remarks mad© by the member of the Government who had spoken; but if he (Mr Bel!) were tho Government, be would refuse to assent to the motion now before the Hou«e, The Government had taken a^perfectly right course inoffering rewards for these men whether taken alive or dead. The gratitude of the Boose was due to the Government for the manner in which it had r^senfod the interference of the Imperial Government in this mittcr. The Imperial Government had acted towards t>s in a most unfeeling way, and had, by this despatch of Lord Granyille's, added /Kratoiboo* impertinence :; and the Colonial Secretary's memo-] randum on that despatch;; deserv-d the <mt ire approval and defence of the House. When men rose in the Hob so and attempted to eitcase .soch atrocities a* had been committed, *o° Government should stand upon its dignity, and refasa to give'any information.- ■.. ; '"'""" ' , . Mr OnMOiro agreed generally with the hononrable member ' for Mataura. He thought, however, the Government should give ooroo information as to the position in which they would be, and the action they would take, if the reported killing of -Te. Kooti turned out to tie true. There were outstanding rewards for the murderers of Mr Volkncr and others, and it did not appear from any action on the part of the Natives, that thoj would act so as to secure tbose rewards. As to To Kooti, thoro waa perhaps, * a reasonable probability in the conclusion that he was killed in the attack «n Mohaka, He did not wish to lead the House to think that ho believed To Kooti was so killed, but be did think that tho evidence was very strong in its favour. If it should prove that Te Kooti was killed at Mobaka, he thought tho Government would strengthen their hands in dealing with Native matters, and wottld produce an effect which might possibly have a gcod result hereafter, by saying that the reward that had been offered should bo paid to the Mohaka people. "The resistance mad© by those people was, as the House was aware, of the most gallant character. They were almost destroyed as a tribe, and as allies they stood out pre-eminent at the present time, so as to dc«<-rve the utmost consideration on the part of the Government. Mr Oarlutok entirely agreed with the honourable member for Matanra. It was woreo than - absurd that we should fetter ourgelves with the conventionalities of European warfare, whan contending with those who would observe no conventionalities at aIL Tho first thing to be thought of in warfare was, how to win Wo were not bound, and t wo had 'no right, to place ourselves at any disadvantage. At the same timo, he fully admitted that if conventionalities could bo introduced which would Im> observed on both sides, and which would leßscn the horrors of warfare, such conventionalities should be held to be binding. But the Maoris' ideas of war and our ideas were diametrically opposed. The Maori made war to kill, and for nothing else; ho reckoned the extent of his victory by the number of his enemies ho had killed. Whereas, with us, when a small handful of unconquered men stood on the top of the Hill of Alouera, we claimed a victory beoauße they so stood ; the Maori would have said that we lost the battle, because we bad too many of our men killed, and that so much utu, that in, payment, would have to be taken to balance tho loss As within his own knowledge, he cou d state to the Houbo that when the Maoris in the North heard that the Government was desirous of taking Tito Koworu alive, *• What do you want to take him alive for ?" they asked, "are you going to torture him?" That was tho first idea that occurred to the Maori mind in connection with the capture of Tito Kowaru. If we were placed uponan equality with the M aori in all matters of this sort, he {Mr Carleton) would be perfectly content; but he was not content, that we should place ourselves at a disadvantage in any way. He thought it was Sir Walter Scott who told a story of a couple of men who went out to fight a duel. One of them had only a rapier, and he complained that his antagonist had a rapier and a dagger. '• We came here to fight, not to talk," said the other, "draw, and defend thyeeJf." It was pretty well known that he had been one of the first in the House, upon all occasions, to endeavour to secure fair play towards the Natives ; but no sentimental grievance, such aa the one indicated, would ever have his support. Mr Kslly was astonished at the words which had fallen from the honourable member for Newton. The sentiments expressed by him showed that he was not an out-settler of the North Island; they were not the Bontimeats of . the settlers of the North Inland. He approved of the action taken by the Government in reference to that matter, and his only regret was that it bad iiot been carried further. No action was taken by the Government to drive the Ngatimaniapotos to commit the outrages at the White Cliffy. They had not been inter'ered with by the Government. The rebels had come from their fastnesses and attacked the settlers without any provocation whatever. In fact, their object was to bring on a war. They had been entirely unprovoked, and he was quite astonished that the honourable mcm v er should sympathise with those Natives. Mr Fox felfc that he ought not to give a Biknt vo:e on: the present occasion: he thought it was the duty of every promi-m-nt member of the House, on an oucision of that kind, to express his opinion. He ft It bound, on the present occasion, to support the Government as far as ho was acquainted with the action they had taken in that matter; at the same time he was anxious that they should not refuse to give the information that had been asked. He thought; the wise course would bo to give the fullest possible information to the Houae, so that the House, the Imperial Government, and the world should judge of the course they had pursued. JSe believed the Government had done nothing and offered nothing which they, could not fully justify in the eyes of humanity. No one could deprecate more than he would the holding out inducements to inflict any cruelty or unnecessary hardship on the enemy beyond that of their simply loaing'their lives in the cause which they advocated* In reference to the Sepoy?, the officersi of the Indianarmy wore charged with having gone out and inilioted moraV mental, and personal torture u pon rebels taken in arms du ring the mutiny,: If that was the case, it was justly calculated to provoke the indignation of the people of the Christian country in the army of which tho officers were'serving;' He was not aware that the Government had held out any reward calculated to induce persons to aidopfc such, a course of proceeding toV*rda the rebel Natives. After the events which bad Uken place, and the great atrocities which the rebels had committed: every friendly Maori and European was constituted ipso facto a policeman, and it was their duty to capture the rebels if they could; Where such frightful atrocities had >evn committed, it was h» duty to constitute himself a public executioner in the same-way as if ha was appointed a hangman. The Gp^ vernment had invited the adoption of straightforward means, and even lying in ambush would have been a lawful way of capturing the enemy. If t&yhM incited the JEuropeans and friendly Natives to bring in.^ne rebels dead or abye they would not have exceeded the duty they were bound to fulffl. Ho felt bound to support of the Government, but he -\ hoped they ;would not• consent to the advice giveni to the information, but: that v^ey^ould: givci the fullest information!ai to Jthacfoursetheyhad po rsued and intended to /pursue to th> House. ' > .■'■■ 'r- '■'^ ■'■'■ Oli;;;/-:'-",^ Mr Stajfford said tho Government was

i prepared to giW -;evo ry informst• wtt^6tt;i thi> sabject. The Government felt jmtified in ! writing/ th«^memorand<tm'/i«'¥-referOT« lord Gronville'* dsspatch. Althouiihtheir h ivinjj done 'so. had tbe rnisfortnne to come ;«nder the cenm^^ih^'^itoiwiMe member : ;'yet:; : the ;;''expre»sion;,:of^ omoion^ vfcb«» •ho&om«Me}:;uim b-:Mira^on;thjß^aubJ^ct«.^ wai justified i.n using the language that he had used in the memorandnm in question, h-j should be prepared to rcpat it if a similar imputation were made on the Colony by tbe imperial Government, So long as lie acted |in any public * capicSiyv 5 whether a* * member of the; or of the Go-ve*nmen^;.,: iis^: .^oiujd.;,..' apfc.^sltßjd.,^ Jdly • W!'^%fn}'.iii^}adi^^^^^w*^<m- 'made that affected their sincerity or hnmanity. Ho^n^ht^Bay^;tba^;Atbe'■i;jp^i^law ca*es were Veiy few;; tiw 'public were familiar with them, but such a» thgy were they would be given. >; Ho fWaSyhapny to assure the honourable member for Bangmkei that no such soggestions as he bad referred to had been made by tbo Government. The Government had done what they had thought right : tbey never thdttghi it ''.. iHght to acomesce in any treacherous mode of proceanro^ He aid ihbt think the subject required auy furthei? discussion They would offer no opposition to the production of the papers, if the House wished for them, and they were quite in tho hands of the Bouse In tbo matter. -: -•-■ ■>*■'■ - "c-;;-:; '■-■■■ -J':

Mr Ckeiohton wished merely t» say a word in reply, to what had fallen from honourable members. He was satisfied with the promise given by the Government that they would place the information before tbe public. He would say again that he regretted that tho Government had not pieced that information fully before theHouse, and so have prevented any honourable member asking in this way for it. ' He was quite aware, when 'he put tho motion on the Notice Paper, that he would likely be censured ly honourable members on both sides of the House. In doing so, however, he had done what he simply considered to be his duty, and ho had merely expressed the views which he conscientiously held. If ho had formed a wrong impression from tbe terms of the letter of the Government, the fault did not rest with him. The ambiguity was in tho language of the document, and the misapprehension, he believed,- would bo most, natural to the mind of any unbiassed persm in reading that letter. The terms of the proclamation were, that a samof LI, 000 wa« to be paid for Tito Kowara, whether brought in doid or alive, but it was not to be paid if ho were killed in any general engagement, Tbe inference to be drawn from that was fairly what he had stated. He was happy to hear from the houourablo member at tho head of the Government the statement that sueh a thing was not intended. It? was, another proof of the necesaity of tho Government dealing candidly with the House, and not lea?e honourable members to eke out the information in bits and scraps from time to time. He did not think that anything that had fallen from the honourable merabor from Mataura required any comment from him. He was not a M*ori worshipper, and never had been, and he wa« quite prepared to abide by the judgment of the House and tho tnblio in any comparisons in that respect that mi^ht be instituted between his conduct and the conduct and antecedents of that hononrable member. He was perfectly sitiified with the information given by the Government, and.he had no doabt the papers when placed before the Hou*o would jnatify them in the course they had taken. Motion put and negatived.