MESSRS, PEARCE AND HUNTER.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4218, 26 September 1874, Page 6

MESSRS, PEARCE AND HUNTER.

Mr. Pearce and Mr. Hunter, members o£ the House of Representatives for the City of Wellington, addressed their constituents on September 23, in the Odd Fellows' HalL The Mayor occupied the chair. Mr. Peaece : Your Worship and gentlemen —ln the course of my address to you this evening, I shall have occasion to call your attention to, and to review some of the proceedings of, the last session of the General Assembly, but having reference more especially to the proposed constitutional changes. Before doing so I desire to make some observations on the practical effects resulting from the public works and immigration policy initiated in the year 1870, and adopted by the Colony at the general elections which followed the inauguration of the proposals of the Ministry of the day. In doing so I shall have occasion to deal with figures a little, which may make that portion of my address somewhat dry. At the same time I cannot but think that the figures should be interesting to you. The financial position of the country in which we live, and in which we have made our homes, cannot be a matter of indifference to us. I shall endeavor to be as clear as I possibly can be, and will state the figures in r»und numbers, in bulk, as it were. The first result, and that the most obvious one, to which I have to allude, is the large increase in the indebtedness of the Colony. The debentures of the General and Provincial Governments in circulation on the 30th June amounted to £13,400,000. From this has to be deducted the accrued sinking fund amounting to £900,000, which leaves the total debt of the Colony at £12,500,000. But inasmuch as I propose to deal with this matter from a Colonial point of view, rather than from a Provincial one, I must deduct the Provincial share of that debt, and it is very proper that this should be done, as the Provincial portion of the debt is a charge on the land fund rather than on . the consolidated fund, at all events primarily it is no charge upon the Consolidated Revenue. The Provincial share of the debt then is £3,500,000, which reduces the Colonial indebtedness to £9,000,000. This is a large sum, and involves an annual charge for interest and sinking fund of something like half a million of money. I do not underestimate the magnitude of the figures, but when analysed it will be found that they do , not wear that appalling character which they are apt to do if not looked at in their proper bearing's. I have to account for some £9,000,000 which have been borrowed and disposed of. In 1869, when the Fox-Vogel Ministry came into office, the indebtedness of the Colony was £3,500,000, and I think I am right in saying that nearly the whole of that money, if not the whole, went in war. Therefore, in dealing with the subject, especially as to the result of the immigration and public works policy of 1870, I must deduct £3,500,000, leaving a balance of £5,500,000, the amount borrowed since the new policy of 1870 was inaugurated. That has been disposed of in this way :—Railways, £2,000,000 ; immigration, £400,000 ; the purchase of land in the North Island, and making roads in Native districts, £600,000; giving water supply to goldfields, and in the extension of telegraphs, and subsidy to Road Boards, another £500,000. On defence and other purposes a million has been spent, and on the 30th of June last there wag a million in hand. This accounts for the £5,500,000 borrowed since the policy of 1870 was inaugurated. I have given you the debit, or dark side of the account. I will now give you the credit or bright side. Before doing so, I should say that, although only £2,000,000 have been spent up to the 30th of June on railways, the Legislature has authorised an expenditure under this head, and authorised the borrowing of money for the purpose, to tho extent of £6,500,000. It has also authorised the expenditure of £1,500,000 upon immigration, and £2,000,000 upon the various other public works referred to. This, altogether, amounts to £10,000,000, which, added to the Defence and Other Purposes Loan of £1,000,000, with the three and a half millions of Provincial indebtedness, and £3,500,000 of old debt, makes the grand total of £18,000,000, which is the total authorised indebtedness of the Colony at the present. time, »nd will involve an annual charge of £1,000,000 per annum, interest and sinking fund. What have we to show for this ? If you have followed me in my figures, you will understand that six or seven millions out of the eighteen have yet to be spent. When that has been spent, we shall have as an asset several hundred miles of railways in full operation ; we shall have a large increase to our population ; we shall have a valuable landed estate in the North Island ; we shall have roads made through Native districts—through districts that have for years,— I may say, months ago—were unapproachable ; wo shall have brought to the goldmining districts a valuable water supply, a telegraph system probably unequalled in any other Colony ; and last, though not least, we shall have established peace in this Island, although there has not yet been time for fully developing any one of these great works. But it is very remarkable what extraordinary beneficial effects accrue to a country, and to its revenue, by the prosecution of well-devised public works, more especially those works which tend to promote easy, rapid, and cheap transport. Perhaps themostimportantaudgratifyingfeature of the results of the policy of 1870 —at all events that feature most immediately apparent—has been the large increase to the revenue returns from the Customs ; and you are aware that the Consolidated Revenue is chiefly derived from the Custom House. No doubt this was anticipated, but even the most sanguine could hardly have anticipated such gratifying results. In 1870 the total Consolidated Revenue amounted to £900,000. For the year ending 30th of June last, it exceeded £1,400,000, showing an increase of upwards of 50 per cent, in the short space of four years ; and this not by any startling jump, but by gradual augmentation, although no doubt the increase last year had been very marked. There is every probability that, very shortly, the revenue will be still further increased. It is very instructive to notice what large returns are being received in the neighboring Colony of Victoria from railways, the revenues from which show a yearly increase, and are now of great magnitude. It is well to bear in mind, moreover, that the estimates from traffic have generally been under-estimated. In every instance tho actual returns have been with us considerably in excess of tho estimate. Not only will the railways thus be productive of a large revenue, but the receipts will be accompanied by a considerable increase to the general wealth and producing power of flie Colony. Not only will the channels of income be multiplied by immigration and by the opening up of our coalfields and perhaps of other mines, but the facilities given to the occupiers of land, for the transport of their produce, will give an impetus to agricultural industry and act as a stimulus to the more economic treatment of our land, all of which, I am sure, will result most beneficially to the country at large. For it cannot but be remarked, looking at the Colony as a whole, what a very small portion of the country has been subject to agriculture. Of the great bulk of the land, millions of acres are now absolutely in a state of nature. I caunot but think that nothing can tend so much to the advancement of agriculture as tho giving an easy, cheap, and rapid communication between different parts of the Colony ; and I am satisfied of this—that the removal of obstacles to the settlement of the outlying districts, the development of their resources, and bringing from the soil its hidden wealth, are far more important to the statesman than the discussion of abstract questions of constitutional government, even if it be Centralism versus Provincialism. Before I leave this subject, I think it is only right to remark that, session after session, the country and the Parliament has heard less and less of what used to bo called tho Native difficulty. At one time tho legislation of the Assembly was constantly impeded by the difficulties with the Natives in this Island; and those who can remember the Btate of the country during those ten years prior to enunciation of the policy of 1870 will recognise the remarkable change. I need not, I think, insist upon this ( aspect of the result of that policy, which Wel-

lington from the first approved of, and all along supported by its votes. The session just closed was not a long one, but a great deal of work was got through. No fewer than eightytwo Acts were added to the Statute-book of the Colony; and yet, looking at thes3 Act 3, what do we find! Out of the whole number, not more than half-a-dozen are of general interest. The majority chiefly relate to local matters in other parts of the Colony. I think, if I named the Licensing Bill, the Act for the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt, the State Forests Bill, the Burial Ground Closing Bill, and the Loan Bill, I believe I have named all those possessing special or general interest. We had an Hospital Bill and a Bill to enable the ratepayers of Wellington to elect their own Mayor, but these were the only measures of purely local concern to Wellington. Just one word about the Licensing Bill : it was another attempt at some satisfactory solution of a much vexed question, but I am bound to say that the attempt did not meet with any satisfactory results. We here find the same difficulty that they find at Home in dealing with this question. The Imperial Parliament have devoted a great deal of attention to the discussing of the question, with, probably, about the same results experienced here. The subject is one on which men hold strong, if not extreme views, and it is not to be wondered at —bearing in mind the great evils of drunkenneS3 —that thoughtful men do hold strong views upon it. At the same time I cannot but think that the advocates of total abstinence do their cause great injury by forgetting that the majority of mankind believe the moderate use of wines and other stimulants is not only permissible, but positively beneficial. I believe that self-control, bred of culture and self-respect—to say nothing of religion—is more likely to be of good effect than any amount of legislation society will submit to. The introduction of the State Forests Bill resulted in a very interesting debate on a subject which has had a great deal of attention given to it in other countries. The Premier, in moving the second reading of the Bill, showed that he had bestowed upon it a great deal of attention and care, and brought to bear upon it an earnestness and zeal deserving of every commendation. Unfortunately, many members looked upon the Bill as a device on the part of the Government to obtain the landed estate of the Provinces for the Colony, and thus, by a side-wind, get for the General Government assistance to its revenue at the expense of the Provinces. The opposition thus raised prevented a really useful measure from becoming law —at least in the shape in which it was introduced. The opposition became fo strong that the Government were compelled to accept the Bill in a mutilated form, in order to prevent its being lost altogether. At any rate, even in the present form of the Bill, its principles have been so far affirmed by Parliament that the work of legislation in that direction will be made much easier in future. It will, however, remain that this State Forests Bill will possess a historical interest, irrespective of the merits of the ques--1 tion, inasmuch as it brought about the chief ' feature of the session. I need hardly say that ' I allude to the resolutions involving consti- ■ tutional changes. In effect, the State Forests Bill paved the way to this. Mr.. Vogel, in ' moving that resolution, or series of resolutions, 1 for abolishing the Provincial system in the North Island, and for fixing by Statute.the seat of Government at. Wellington, and to confirm the compact of 1856, said that the action of the Government was precipitated by the course adopted by certain members during the debate on that Bill, for he held that the opposition to that measure was based upon Provincial grounds alone. The fact remains that the Government took the House and country by surprise in _ this matter. It is abundantly evident that within a few houre before tabling the motion the Government had no intention—at all events during that session—of disturbing existing institutions. It cannot be supposed that, if the Government had contemplated making such radical changes in the system of government in this island, no reference whatever would have been made to it in the speech made by His Excellency in opening Parliament. Moreover, read the Financial Statement made a few days before, and what do we fiud ? We find t'h«e no notice of any intention, to abolish Provincialism. On the contrary, we find that ways and means had been provided to enable the Provinces to carry out their functions in a proper manner. I do not say the Government were wrong in bringing down these resolutions, but still they took the House by surprise. Let us go further. _ It was understood on all hands that the session would be a short one, and that no important legislation would be introduced. This understanding was accepted by the House and by the country, because it was thought better to leave the Government in peace and quietness and undisturbed by any exciting legislation, in order to enable them.to give their undivided attention to the public works they had in hand. Notwithstanding this understanding the Government broke ground on this, the most dangerous of all subjects. I say again that in this matter the Government took the House by surprise, although I do not say that they did wrong. Let us consider these resolutions. By them the House has decided that Provincialism shall cease in the North Island; they have decided that Wellington shall be fixed as the permanent seat of Government, and that the localisation of the land revenue as provided by the compact of 1856 Ehall be continued. You will observe that there are three distinct questions. The two last have no necessary connection with the first, and I propose to deal with these two. With regard to the seat of Government not many words are required from me. Wellington is the capital, and ought to be, because it is so situated as to be a convenient and central spot from which to administer the Government of the Colony; and I am not aware that it was the intention on the part of any one to disturb that arrangement, but I say that if the Legislature decided that it was expedient to make a change, no Act that might be put upon the Statute Book would prevent them giving effect to their wishes. The compact of 1856 is a matter entirely different. But, so far as it is proposed to make it binding upon the Colony by au Act of the Legislature, it is on all-fours with the question of the compact; because so long as it is considered proper and expedient to maintain the compact of 1556 in force, so long will it remain so, and no act of the General Assembly will make it more binding upon the Colony than it is at present. I Lave never been able to satisfy myself how far that socalled compact is binding as a point of honor between the North and South. Is it an engagement, the breaking of which would be dishonorable ; or is it an arrangement which Parliament even has no right to reconsider ? It is difficult to understand how the Parliament of a united Colony could enter into any arrangement, the effect of which would be an inequality of taxation. It has always appeared to me that the essence of fair legis> lation was perfect equality in the burdens of taxation ; and it is manifest that this compact has not realised that idea, and must continue to result in an inequality of taxation It lias had that effect for years. For instance, some parts of the Colony have had to bear the burden of education and the cost of maintaining roads purely by taxation, while other portions of the Colony have been enabled to meet those burdens out o£ land revenue and endowments of land. It is only fair to say that within the last two years the Government have been making extensive purchases of Native lands, and these purchases have been made at the expense of the whole Colony, and they will be handed over to the North Island to be dealt with on the same principle as the lands in tho South Island are dealt with under the compact of 1856. But there is one point in connection with this compact of 1856 to which insufficient attention has been given. At tho time that arrangement was entered into by the Government they had tho monopoly of the purchase of land from the Natives, but within a few years tho Native Lands Act of 1862 was passed, and that Act enabled tho Natives to sell to private individuals on precisely the same terms as to the Government. Hence tho Act giving the Government a monopoly in the purchase of Native lands

became a dead letter. With regard to the localisation of the laud revenue. It is of importance we should understand what is meant by it. Otago and Canterbury understand by it that Provincial Councils shall appropriate the lanu revenue, not necessarily that the proceeds of the land shall be spent in the district in •which it is raised. It is quite competent for the Provincial Council of Otago to spend money raised in the extreme south and west—in the neighborhood of Oamaru or around Dunedin, as they may think proper. Hence Provincialism has become in many instances a form of centralisation, and I believe this is the chief reason why complaints are hoard in outdistricts of other Provinces besides those I have named. But let us come now to the main question. Should Provincialism be abolished ? The proposal is one of a funda mental character, and deserves very grave consideration, not only at the hands of the representatives of the people of' the Colony, but at the hands of the people themselves. It is much easier to destroy than to build up—much easier to abolish the Provinces than to substitute a system of local self-government in its place. The House of Representatives has decided that Provincialism shall cease in this, the North Island, but ha 3 not so far told us what is to take its place, except generalising in this way —that the island shall be divided into districts and sub-districts, endowed with substantial revenues, and that the residents therein shall be able to take a more active part in the management of local affairs and the expenditure of local revenues than they have hitherto been able to do. What is meant by substantial endowments I do not know ; but I am confident of this, if you abolish Provincialism, you will not necessarily reduce taxation. Having said so much, I will now say that I never was a warm Provincialist. I found it in existence here, and I have taken part in a humble way in its administration ; but when I first came to the Colony it struck me—as it probably must have struck most new comers—that it was a wonderfully complex system of government, resulting in division and jealousies rather than in unity and strength. Insularly situated as we are, we are free from those border questions which so trouble the neighboring Colonies of Australia. Notably free as we are from those questions, we create artificial divisions and boundaries that really have no meanin"-. True, these divisions do not affect the collection of Customs' revenue, a 3 in Australia, though they affect us in very important particulars". I may take for instance the land laws of the Colony. Can any system be a good one that results in such a variety of regulations for the disposal of the waste lands of the Crown. A few years a<*o there was a volume published with the avowed object of letting the world know what our land regulations really were. It is an enormous volume, almost requiring a porter to carry it, but although only published a few years ago, it can be but of little use, seeing how many land laws the Government has since passed. Ido not believe that there are twenty men in the Colony who understand the various laws that affect the sale of lands in the different Provinces. Ido not say that there should be a uniform price for land—that would be absurd ; but I can see no reason why there should not be one uniform system. If, for the sake of argument, we admit that Provincialism wa3 in times gone the best system of Government for the Colony, surely it may be very well ar<med that that time has gone by. Perhaps the strongest argument that the time has gone by i 3 this, that in virtue of the Public Works and Immigration Act of 1870 the General Government practically took over all colonising functions that previously appertained to Provincial Governments ; and this not so much because they wished to do so, but because the Provincial Governments had practically ceased to perform those functions. lam not going to detract one iota from the work that has been done by the various Provinces ; and of this present Provincial Government of Wellington I will say it has done an immense deal of good work notwithstanding much opposition—notwithstanding half-hearted support on the part of the Provincial Council—and in spite of crippling treatment at the hands of the General Assembly. But thi3 state of things cannot continue. It ia clear that it is a struggle for existence on the part of every Province : I do not even except the Provinces' of Otago and Canterbury, because their time of difficulty will come before long.' I may be asked, holding these views, why did you not vote for the resolutions proposed by the Government '< True, you did not vote against them ; why not for them ? Well, I might, answer that they were brought down, as it were, on the spur of the moment; not out of forethought but out of pique. I might answer that tLe time was unfortunately chosen, inasmuch as it was desired on all hand 3 that the Government should be left in peace ; whereas, the bringing down of these resolutions introduced an element of discord. It was on all hands desired that the Government should be left free from all exciting questions of legislation, so that they mi r dit be able to give.thcir undivided attention to the work in hand. I might give these as reasons why I did not vote for the resolutions. They deserved more careful consideration at the hands of the Government than evidently they received, for the Ministry practically admitted that they were brought down under feelings of irritation. I might have added that the resolutions involved three distinct proposals, to two of which I might have said " aye," and to the third " no." I might give these reason:), but I have a stronger one. I have a very strong dislike to any special or exceptional legislation for the North Island. If there is anything in the argument that the Provinces of Otago and Canterbury can with advantage continue to carry on Provincial legislation and Provincial administration, that argument can not apply to three out of five of the Provinces of the Middle Island, for it cannot be said that Wellington and Hawke's Bay are in a worse position than Marlborough, Nelson, and Westland. Why, then, exceptional legislation for the North Island 1 It seems to rne that this is no mere weak feeling of jealousy. I hold that such exceptional legislation trenches too closely on insular separation. Separation of any kind will receive my moat strenuous opposition. Cook Strait should be looked upon as a convenient highway—not as a mark of separation, either physical or political. Marlborough and Nelson are practically closer to Wellington than they are to Canterbury. I wish you to ■understand ma thoroughly, in making those remarks, that notwithstanding my strong objection to any exceptional legislation for the North Island—notwithstanding my great dislike for anything approaching to insular separation—l hold myself absolutely free to vote for the Bill when it comes down next session, because I may be able to satisfy myself that the Bill is only a step in the direction of a system of uniform government throughout the Colony. (Applause.) If I am satisfied that that is the tendency of the Bill, I shall vote for it. I refuse to believe that New Zealand cannot bo governed as other countries are. I refuse to believe that local self-government can only exist with Provincial Executives and Provincial Councils. Unquestionably, the abolition of Provincialism is only a question of time. The South Island knows this thoroughly well. I shall not grieve when that time arrives. If no strong public feeling manifests itself, it ia because the people are so well off that all are too well oft and too busy to care for the way in which they are governed. There never was a time since the Colony was founded that people generally were doing so well for themselves. Immigrants who come to the Colony need not complain of having to share our burdens, because they also share our present prosperity, and hopes of a bright future. I believe there is no country so suitable for Englishmen out of England as New Zealand. I do not think I have anything more to say, except to thank you for your courtesy in listening to me bo patiently. (Loud applause).

Mr. llunteb : After the very able and exhaustive speech you have had the pleasure of listening to, it really appears superfluous to say anything, because Mr. Pearco has given an account of his stewardship throughout the recent session, and he and I have in this as in previous sessions been able to act and vote together. We were returned upon the sarno ticket—pledged to eupporfc the great public works policy. Mr. Pearce in the last subject he touched upon has

indicated the only question upon which he and I entertain somewhat different views. Those which I hold upon that subject I gave expression to in my place in the House of Representatives, and my speech was published in the New Zealand Times the other day. I daresay many of vou have perhaps taken the trouble to read it. If I were to say much upon the matter it would only be to repeat what I there said, but I must again state that iny opinion of the desirability of the change indicated is certainly not so strong in its favor as that of my colleague. I have yet to see what is proposed to be given to us in exchange for that local self-government under which we have existed since 185*3, and to which I think may bo traced the high and prosperous position in which thi3 Colony now stands. It is quite true we owe a great deal to the General Government for what they have done in the last three or four years; but they have built upon a foundation, which wa3 laid throughout the length and breadth of the Colony, by tho Provincial authorities. It is all very well to say that the Provinces are exhausted, and must die; but how have they been exhausted ? By the General Government. Many of you will remember that when the Provincial system of government was introduced, two-thirds of tho Consolidated Revenue of the country was handed over to the Provinces for expenditure; but by one process or another, that lias been diminished. It is true that it was mainly caused by the unfortunate war, which compelled us to raise money at any expense and cost; but that is not an inherent defect of Provincial institutions. I have yet to be convinced that when that comes, which sooner or later must come upon us—-increased taxation • that such taxation will be better administered by the General Government than it would be by the various Provincial Governments, or will be less unpalatable to the people than if it were in the hands of representatives locally answerable to them, and living upon tho spot. (Applause.) We hear a great deal about local self-government and endowments, but, to my mind, those endowments can only come from one source, and that is out of the pockets of the people. With regard to the land fund, when this Colony was first established, it was recognised as part of the scheme that the land fund was to be expended in making improvements upon roads and bridges, and in opening up the country for occupation. I need not tell you what we have all become convinced of, that unless country is opened up for settlement it is valueless. What is the use of one hundred thousand acres of land to a man if he cannot get to it, or get anything away from it. It is only by opening up the country that you make it of value to the State and causa it to be reproductive to the holder, and indeed to the State, because it will then bear taxation. I do not propose to address you at any length upon the subject, because I do not think it necessary, for no doubt a great many of you have thought it out for yourselves. Of course there will be Provincialists amongst us, and Centralists amongst us ; but the position I take up is this : This subject will be brought up in the next Parliament, if the Government carry out the pledge they have given, they will introduce a Bill containing conditions which will indicate to us what i 3 proposed to be given in exchange for what is to be taken away ; and if I then have the honor of filling tho position of one of your representatives, it will be my duty to give that Bill my best consideration, and to satisfy myself as far as I possibly can what are the views entertained by my constituents. If, in a point of this kind, upon which I entertain strong impressions and convictions, I should be satisfied that these convictions were not shared and entertained by those I had the honor of representing, it would be my duty to get out of the way, and allow some other person to occupy the position which I felt I could not conscientiously fill. (Cheers.) With respect to this matter, I need not say mora than that this is the course I have marked out for myself ; I shall give the Bill my best consideration, and being as I am in the midst of my constituents, always at hand and amenable to censure or to praise, there can be no misunderstanding between us on this point. My action will be governed by the Bill which is put before us, and although I hold strong -views on this subject, if I am clear we are going to get something that will be an improvement on that which we have at the present time, I will- support the change, but not otherwise. (Applause). Mr. Pearce has referred to one or two Bills which were brought under the consideration of Parliament last session, and I agree generally with what he said about tho Forest Bill. The papers which were brought forward in support of that measure were very elaborate and creditable to the hon. gentleman who introduced that Bill. I thought it was one of those cases that required a little more thought and consideration, but in voting for the expenditure that was authorised by Parliament, I did so because I thought that very good effects would accrue from a comprehensive inquiry into the subject made by persons conversant with forestry. I felt we were travelling to a great extent in the dark, and recognised that a 3 there is great dissimilarity between the condition of the two Islands as regards timber —in the North Island there is a great abundance, and in the South a scarcity—legislation that would meet the requirements of both Islands must be of a very dissimilar character. Another measure which was introduced, the Pacific Islands Trade Encouragement Bill, was a very grand scheme, and if we had an abundance of money and a surplus revenue, it might be very desirable to enter into undertakings of that kind. It would no doubt be very beneficial to New Zealand; but while we require so much money for public works we cannot afford to give a guarantee upon one or two millions of money. The opinions which I hold upon this subject were generally shared by members of the House, and the Bill was allowed to lapse. A measure which I consider useful, the Excise Duties Act, was passed. It enabled the Government to equalise the duties upon spirits manufactured in the Colony and those imported. I have always been ready to declare my views upon the Free Trade question; and contend as a free-trader that it was wrong and improper to endeavor to make an industry flourish, which would not flourish without artificial encouragement; besides, this is a trade which, of all others, should not be encouraged in this Colony. If a person drinks spirits, the best thing for him to do is to drink the best spirits he can get, and that he is not likely to do by taking those of Colonial manufacture. (Hear, hear, and laughter). I am travelling upon a subject with which I may be supposed not to have much knowledge or experience; but my impression is that Colonial spirit has been used in a very mischievous manner in adulterating spirits of a superior quality. Therefore, I think that upon that ground alone it was desirable to pass the Bill. I was one of tho committee that recommended the alteration, and I was very happy to find that the House voted a sum to compensate the proprietors of tho two existing distilleries. Both of them will be closed in eighteen months, unless they can afford to pay duty at the same rate as upon imported spirits. I entirely agree with many of Mr. Pearce's remarks with reference to the Licensing Bill. I am a total abstainer, but I have never denied to others the liberty I claim for myself. (Cheers.) I use my discretion upon these matters, and I consider it my duty to argue in favor of, and support as far as I possibly can, the principle of total abstinence. If there were more total abstainers it would be better for us all. The best thing to be done with the liquor trade is to make it respectable, and raise its character, and that can only be done by a measure containing provisions such as those proposed by Mr. Vogel. You cannot get over the fact that no legislation will shut up all public-houses, but wo can by moans of an effective polico and wise legislation, in a great degree correct that which is admittedly one of tho greatest evils of tho age. There is no legislation in the world that will make people virtuous and good ; we must educate them, and bring them up well, and encourage the young to be total abstainers, that is the only means by which wo shall prosper and succeed in the cause. My colleague did not refer to a measure which passed the House of Representatives, but was thrown out by the Council—the Te Aro Reclamation Bill. I need not say much about that, as you are all acquainted

with the facts ; and I noticed in an evening paper of to-day a letter written, I imagine, by a member of the Upper House, giving the reasons that induced the Council to reject the Bill. For some reasons it is to be regretted that it was not passed, because if permission had been given to raise the money, and it had been judiciously expended, the result would have been advantageous to the City; but I hope the passing of the measure is only deferred. Possibly if the City Council had asked for £50,000 in the first instance they might have obtained the Act and thoy could have raised more money after some of the land had been reclaimed, by means of another Bill. That plan had been adopted with the waterworks and in some other cases. Another useful Act which was passed was that for the abolition of imprisonment for debt, which, I think, in a civilised country must be recognised as a measure of importance. I do not thinlc that I need say much about financial matters. A good deal has been spoken about the position of the Province at present compared to what it was three or four years ago, and if I were asked where you could get the best description of the condition of the Province, I should refer you to a speech of the Hon. Mr. Pox, delivered in the House of Representatives in August last, and reported in Hansard. It is not, perhaps, worth while _ to go into many matters connected with Provincial finance ; but I may mention that since the Provincial Government, of which I am a humble member, has been in office, there has been a sum of about £21,000 expended on roads—thirty-eight bridges have been built, and a great deal of other work has been performed. The Provincial Government of Wellington has also, since the Immigration scheme was inaugurated, assisted the General Government in distributing and locating over 7000 immigrants. You are all aware that very strong accusations have been brought against the Provincial Government of Wellington, and we have been accused of being one of the causes necessitating those large changes in the Constitution, proposed by the General Government. I am of opinion we have not misbehaved to the extent represented. With reference to the City, I would simply say that the Provincial Government have made great improvements to the gaol—(laughter)— have built a new lunatic asylum ; have aided the College, and have made a road to Evans' Bay at a considerable expenditure. In any remarks I may make with reference to the improved condition of the Province, I wish to guard myself against reflecting in any possible way upon those who preceded i us in the Provincial Government. You all know that, although I had a seat in tho Provincial Council since 185 S, I was not connected with the Executive until the present Superintendent was elected; neither was Mr. Bunny—that was about four years ago. Previous to that the affairs of the Province were presided over by the present Agent-General (Dr. Featherston). I do not wish in any degree to detract from what Dr. Featherston did. You have only to look round this City, see the reclaimed land, the Queen's wharf, and the patent slip, and to remember the matter of the Manawatu land purchase, and above all the seat of Government question, when all must admit that Dr. Featherston was a zealous administrator, and had at heart the interests of this Province as much as any man living. He did everything a man could, but he could not control events. Owing to the disturbances on the West Coast, sales of land were suspended, and at the same time the General Government were, by degrees and degrees, reducing the revenue of the Provinces. The consequence wa3 that we came to stagnation, and that was recognised when Mr. Fitzherbert assumed the post of Superintendent of this Province. The Provincial Government applied to the General Government, and they assisted us in passing that Bill, known as the Wellington Debts Act, by which the Province was authorised to borrow £36,000. The Provincial authorities, however, only raised £75,000, and within four months were able to hand over that amount of debentures, signed by the agent of the Feilding Association, which bore rate of interest than the Province had to pay, consequently that debt was virtually extinguished. There was another transaction by which the City Council became possessed of the wharf and the reclaimed laud, and they took over a liability of the Province, amounting to £31,000, upon which they have paid interest. Under the Land Reclamation Bill which was passed last session we obtained and handed over to the General Government £25,000. Thus we reduced the liabilities of the Province by £156,000. Theliabilitiesof Wellington, as compared with other Provinces, are small, and interest and sinking fund has only to be paid upon something like £2-1-1,000. In this Province the capitation allowance more than pays the interest on that debt. It is not so in some of the larger Provinces, for their capitation allowance and a considerably larger amount is absorbed in the payment of their interest and sinking fund. Mr. Pearce referred to the indebtedness of the Colony, and laid down the liability of the various Provinces at £3,500,000, but this debt is in course of extinction, though by a process which I think is very vicious, that of a sinking fund. If kept up as at the present time, the sinking fund will gradually extinguish the whole of that debt, so that from "the £18,000,000 which my colleague represents as the debt of the Colony, we should be entitled to substract £3,500,000. Supposing the Provinces ceased to exist, that debt would become one of the Colonial Government, and they will receive a larger income than they do at present, because they will not have to provide for the sinking fund. While upon that subject, I may observe thero has been a great deal said by many people about the indebtedness of the Colony, and no doubt it is a very proper question to consider. I am one of those who do not view it with such alarm as many persons do. I think this country is able to bear tho burden we are incurring ; what Mr. Pearce said about the railways is perfectly true. Wo are paying the cost of constructing these railways, but at present are deriving revenue from a very small portion of them. As an example of what we may expect, we have only to take the little line to the Hutt, which is bringing in three times' as much revenue as the most sanguine person expected. The receipts will go on increasinf more and more as the line is extended. And it will be so throughout the Colony. We aro paying £SOOO per mile for railways, but we have been paying as much for ordinary roads, and we have to maintain them afterwards. Now we shall get the benefit of cheap and rapid communication at no very large additional cost. I am free to admit that we have not yet arrived at the extent of our borrowing and we shall have to borrow more. (Applause.) I shall be prepared to say stop borrowing the moment wo find our income diminishing, but as long as we have our annual revenue increasing I say we are justified in borrowing. Last year the revenue increased to the extent of £300,000, and that would pay interest at the rate of five per cent, upon £6,000,000. Something was said during discussions in the Assembly and elsewhere that the Government and the hon. gentleman at tho head of the Government were enemies of Wellington, but I am not one of those who entertain that opinion. I am not the least afraid to say what I think. - 1 shall always speak my mind, and, if it is not acceptable, I cannot help it. We have a great many facts to prove that this accusation is not true. Mr. Vogel assisted this Province when it was in its deepest difficulties. (Cheers.) He assisted in passing the Wellington Debts Act, without which tho Provincial authorities would have been helpless, Great good has resulted from tho assistance givon us at that time, and wo ought not to be above acknowledging it. In many ways Mr. Vogel has shown a good feeling towards us, as indeed ho has to tho whole Colony, His political position and character are dependent on'the progress of New Zealand, and ho is the most prominent man in it. (Cheers.) None of us are absolutely perfection, I suppose, and Mr. Vogel may make mistakes by attempting too much ; but still he does devoto himself to this Colony, and to all public questions, in a manner which, to my mind, is above all praise. (Renewed applause.) I think ho has been—as ho assured us he would be —thoroughly loyal upon the question of the seat of Government. That is a subject upon which wo have

strong convictions, and I believe Wellington is the proper place for the capital of New Zealand ; and it will remain the capital if for no other reason than that it is the best site. One thing after another strengthens its position. Last session the Government obtained a vote of £33,000 for new public buildings, and a vote of £3OOO was taken for additions to the Colonial Museum. Wellington gets a good share of votes on the Estimates, and it has had a fair amount of consideration at the hands of the General Government. I think New Zealand is fortunate in havino- a Government composed as the present administration is. Sir Donald McLean is an old personal friend of mine. I have been acquainted with him for many, many years—and I think it would be impossible to have a better man for the office which he now occupies. We have had peace and prosperity in this country since he assumed the charge of the Native department, and there is less and less prospect of that which would ruin New Zealand—a Native war. (Cheers.) Old settlers know what that means—stagnation and loss of credit. And lo3s of credit would now do perhaps more harm to the Colony than anything else. Tho Government was more than fortunate when they obtained the services of Mr. Richardson, the Minister for Public Works, who is a practical man. It would be almost impossible to get m the main better administrators than we have at tho present time. Some people object to one member of the Government—Mr. Reynolds—but I think that gentleman is somethin" like myself, a plain business man, a man of common sense, who understands business matters. It is a useful thing for a Government to have a business man amongst its members. Besides, Mr. Reynolds is a representative of the Province of Otago, and it should be remembered that Otago is the most prosperous and influential Province in the Colony and yields the largest revenue, and yet uot a single member from that Province was in the Ministry until he joined it. There is one subject which I cannot help alluding to briefly, and it is worthy of great consideration. It is the position of the two Houses of the Legislature in New Zealand, which I look upon as perhaps the darkest picture we have before us Tho Houses have avoided coming into direct collision, but I do not think antagonism can be avoided much longer. I am afraid that the country will not be satisfied with the position in which matters stand. I am bound to speak of the Upper House with all proper respect, as composed of highly influential and respectable gentlemen; but I am free to admit I am afraid they do think too much of themselves. (Great cheering.) I am aware I am treading on delicate ground. I recognise that there is a class in this country, and 1 am one of them, who have been fortunate enough to acquire considerable landed estates. There is no doubt whatever that by the carrying out of the Public Works policy those estates are becoming much more valuable, and I am prepared for one to take my share of tho burden imposed upon the country. (Applause.) I am not stating this for the first time, and it is one of the questions which the people of this country mil have to think over, and one which their representatives will have to think over. I cannot help reflecting upon the legislation of the last session or two. \ou mil recollect that the session before last a number of loan Bills were rejected by the Council which had been carried by large majorities in the Lower House. Those. Bills would have enabled the various Provinces to borrow sums of money which would have been of very great benefit to the Provinces and to the Colony. I am satisfied that the Public Works scheme must go hand in hand with the construction of local works, and while we carry main lines of railway through tho country, we must construct branches to communicate with the trunk lines. We •ire going to great expense in bringing people to the Colony who will be employed and earn wages readily, but m process of time they will wish to purchase land and occupy the country. It is a happy thing for us to thinlc that no country in the world offers greater inducements than the Colony of New | Zealand to those who wish to become holders of land, and that is especially the case in the Provinces of Wellington and Hawko s Bay. We have seen a large number of immigrants absorbed by this Province, a number that would contrast favorably with the immigrants introduced into Canterbury and Otago. We have really absorbed in the Province of Wellington nearly as many immigrants as some of the larger Provinces, and I ascribe that to the fact that j the land is well suited for them. I must, however, admit that some of the immigrants who have arrived hero have been sent to other ports. We all recognise that population makes the country great. Some twenty year* a«-o you might on Saturday evening walk twenty yards along the principal street m Wellington without meeting an individual, and now you can scarcely get along, the paths are so crowded. If that progress is carried out throughout the whole Colony, a prosperous one it will become. The session before last the Upper House tb.re.wout the Loan Bills I have referred to, although the Government fulfilled their promise: to supoort them. This session another important measure—the Railway Bill—was thrown out in the same way, and the reason was that it would enable the Provinces of, Canterbury and Otago to sell their railways to the General Government, in the same way as the Government of this Province made a sale to tho Corporation. By that means the Provinces of Ota"0 and Canterbury would have received in one°case £500,000 or £600,000, and in the other a larger sum, which would have been the purchase of the railways by valuation. That money would have gone into the Provincial Revenue, and would have enablod those Provinces to make more roada and bridges and open up additional country. I will not admit for one moment that the funds administered by the Provincial Governments have not been expended to. the very best advantage. That has been admitted in various debates, and in one of the last debates in the Legislative Council the Hon. Mr. Holmes, speaking of the administration of affairs in Otago, said it would compare very favorably with the administration of the General Government. I believe in exponding money the Provincial Governments look more closely into matters and manage more economically than the General Government do. I think the General Government are improving in the administration, but difficulties are incidental to tho initiation of a now order of things. The old system has been in operation for twenty-five years, and tho new, which has been in existence but for four or live years, is acquiring tho perfection which it at present lacks. AVhen the land compact of 1856 was made, certain conditions existed with respect to the purchase of Native lands in the North Island, and provision was al3o made for the New Zealand Land Company's debt. I am speaking from memory, but I think that was one of the ingredients of the conpact. I do not think the question of this compact is a very important matter, because wo shall acquire, in the North Island, within a few years, a landed estate as large and valuable as any in the South, if not more so. Some of the land in this Province and Hawke's Bay is worth ten times as much as that in the Southern Provinces, and that is one reason why I think we should be very chary in giving up this Bystem of government. As this land acquires population, so will there bo taxation, which will bo more acceptable if administered locally than it can possibly bo if controlled by the General Government. In conclusion, I will say that I feel my position as your representative one of high honor, and I entertain tho same feeling towards Wellington that a man is supposed to have for the land that gave him birth. I wish I Wellington well; I desire to see it prosperous; and I hope to see it the capital of New Zealand in reality. (Cheers.) I trust to see Wellington in a high position, and as a prosperous Province; and as long as I have the honor to bo one of your representatives I shall endeavor to maintain it in that position. (Loud cheers.) I am now prepared like my colleaguo to answer any questions. Mr. Geokge Allan asked Mr. Hunters views witjj, regard to the Californian mail service. Mr. HOKTEIt considered it was a most valu-

able service, and one that ought to be maintained. It seemed to him very hard that they never received from the Imperial Government the pecuniary assistance that was rendered to the Suez line, though that no doubt was given because the mails to India were carried by it. If the Californian service was to be maintained, the Colonies of New South Wales and New Zealand will have to make up their minds to pay a larger sum of money than they are now doing ; and I, as one of the representatives of the people, should be disposed to vote that the Bum be increased, provided the service were made good and efficient. On the motion of Mr. Martin, a vote of thanks was passed to the members for the City. ... A vote of thanks to the chairman terminated the proceedings.