POST-SESSIONAL SPEECHES.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4216, 24 September 1874, Page 2

POST-SESSIONAL SPEECHES.

MESSRS. PEARCE AND HUNTER. Hr. JPearce and Mr. Hunter, members of the House of Representatives for the City of Wellington, addressed their constituents last evening, in the Odd Fellows’ Hall. The Mayor occupied the chair. Mr. Peakce : Your Worship and gentlemen —ln the course of my address to you this evening, I shall have occasion to call your attention to, and to review some of the proceedings of, the last session of the General Assembly, but having reference more especially to the proposed constitutional changes. Before doing so I desire to make some observations on the practical effects resulting from the public works and immigration policy initiated in the year 1870, and adopted by the Colony at the general elections which followed the inauguration of the proposals of the Ministry of the day. In doing so I shall have occasion to deal with figures a little, which may make that portion of my address somewhat dry. At the same time I cannot but think that the figures should be interesting to you. The financial position of the country in which we live, and in which we have made our homes, cannot be a matter of indifference to us. I shall endeavor to be as clear as I possibly can be, and will state the figures in round numbers, in bulk, as it were. The first result, and that the most obvious one, to which I have to allude, is the large increase in the indebtedness of the Colony. The debentures of the General and Provincial Governments in circulation on the. 30th June amounted to £13,400,000. From this has to be deducted the accrued sinking fund amounting to £900,000, which leaves the total debt of the Colony at £12,500,000. But inasmuch as I propose to deal with this matter from a Colonial point of view, rather than from a Provincial one, I must deduct the Provincial share of that debt, and it is very proper that this should be done, as the Provincial portion of the debt is a charge on the land fund rather than on the consolidated fund, at all events primarily it is no charge upon the Consolidated Revenue. The Provincial share of the debt then is £3,500,000, which reduces the Colonial indebtedness to £9,000,000. This is a large sum, and involves an annual charge for interest and sinking fund of something like half a million of money. I- do not underestimate the magnitude of the figures, but when analysed it will be found that they do not wear that appalling character which they are apt to do if not looked at in their proper bearings. I have to account for some £9,000,000 which have been borrowed and disposed of. In 1869, when the Fox-Yogel Ministry came into office, the indebtedness of the Colony was £3,500,000, and I thinkl am right in saying that nearly the whole of that money, if not the whole, went in war. Therefore, in dealing with the subject, especially as to the result of the immigration and public works policy of 1870, I must deduct £3,500,000, leaving a balance of £5,500,000, the amount borrowed since the new policy of 1870 was inaugurated. That has been disposed of in this way :—Railways, £2,000,000 ; immigration, £400,000 ; the purchase of land in the North Island, and making roads in Native districts, £600,000; giving water supply to goldfields, and in the extension of telegraphs, and subsidy to Road Boards, another £500,000. On defence and other purposes a million has been spent, and on the 30th of June last there was a million in hand. This accounts for the £5,500,000 borrowed since the policy of 1870 was inaugurated. I have given you the debit, or dark side of the account. I will now give you the credit or bright side. Before doing so, I should say that, although only £2,000,000 have been spent up to the 30th of June on railways, the Legislature has authorised an expenditure under this head, and authorised the borrowing of money for the purpose, to the extent of £6,500,000. It has also authorised the expenditure of £1,500,000 upon immigration, and £2,000,000 upon the various other public works referred to. This, altogether,'amounts to £10,000,000, which, added to the Defence and Other Purposes Loan of £1,000,000, with the three and a half millions of Provincial indebtedness, and £3,500,000 \of old debt, makes the grand total of £18,000,000, which is the • total authorised indebtedness of the Colony at the present time, and will involve an annual charge of £1,000,000 per annum, interest and sinking fund. What have we to show for this ? If you have followed me in ray figures, you will understand that six or seven millions out of the eighteen have yet to be spent. When that has been spent, we shall have as an asset several hundred miles of railways in full operation ; we shall have a large increase to our population ; we shall have a valuable landed estate in the North Island ; we shall have roads made through Native districts—through districts that have for years,— I may say, months ago—were unapproachable ; we shall have brought to the goldmining districts a valuable water supply, a telegraph system probably unequalled in any other Colony ; and last, though not least, we shall have established peace in this Island, although there has not yet been time for fully developing any one of these great works. But it is very remarkable what extraordinary beneficial effects accrue to a country, and to its revenue, by the prosecution of well-devised public works, more especially those works which tend to promote easy, rapid, and cheap transport. Perhaps themostimportantandgratifying feature of the results of the policy of 1870 —at all events that feature most immediately apparent—has been the large increase to the revenue returns from the Customs ; and you are aware that the Consolidated Revenue is chiefly derived from the Custom House. No doubt this was anticipated, but even the most sanguine could hardly have anticipated such gratifying results. In 1870 the total Consolidated Revenue amounted to £900,000. For the year ending 30th of Juno last, it exceeded £1,400,000, showing an increase of upwards of 50 per cent, in the short space of four years ; and this not by any startling jump, but by gradual augmentation, although no doubt the increase last year had been very marked. There is every probability that, .very shortly, the revenue will bo still further increased. It is very instructive to notice what large returns are being received in the neighboring Colony of Victoria from railways, the revenues from which show a yearly increase, and are now of great magnitude. It is well to bear in mind, moreover, that the estimates from traffic have generally been under-estimated. In every instance the actual returns have been with us considerably in excess of the estimate. Not only will the railways thus he productive of a large revenue, but. the receipts will be accompanied by a considerable increase to the general wealth and producing power of the Colony. Not only will the channels of income be multiplied by immigration and by the opening up of our coalfields and perhaps of other mines, but the facilities given to the occupiers of land, for the transport of their produce, will give an impetus to agricultural industry and act as a stimulus to the more economic treatment of our land, all of which, I am sure, will result most beneficially to the country at large. For it cannot but be remarked, looking at the Colony as a whole,

what a very smaU portion of the country lias been subject to agriculture. Of the great bulk of the land, millions of acres are now absolutely in a. state of nature. I cannot but think that nothing can- tend so much to the advancement of agriculture as the giving an easy, cheap, and rapid communication be-, tween different parts of the Colony ; and I am satisfied of this—that the removal of obstacles to the settlement of the outlying districts, the development of their resources, and bringing from the soil its hidden wealth, are far more important to the statesman than the discussion of abstract questions of constitutional government, even if it he Centralism versus Provincialism. Before I leave this subject, I think it is only right to remark that, session after session, the country and the Parliament has beardless and less of what used-to-be called the Native difficulty. At one time the legislation of the Assembly was constantly impeded by the difficulties with the Natives in this Island ; and those who can remember the state of the country during those ten years prior to enunciation of the policy of 1870 will recognise the remarkable change. I need not, I think, insist upon this aspect of the result of that policy, which Wellington from the first approved of, and all along supported by its votes. The session just closed was not a long one, hut a great deal of work was got through. No fewer than eightytwo Acts were added to the Statute-book of the Colony; and yet, looking at these Acts, what do we find ? . Out of the whole number, not more than half-a-dozen are of general interest. The majority chiefly relate to local matters in other parts of the Colony. I think, if I named the Licensing Bill, the Act for the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt, the State Forests Bill, the Burial Ground Closing Bill, and the Loan Bill, I believe I have named all those possessing special or general interest. We had an Hospital Bill and a Bill to enable the ratepayers of Wellington to elect their own Mayor, but these were the only measures of purely local concern to Wellington. Just one word about the Licensing Bill : it was another attempt at some satisfactory solution of a much vexed question, but I am bound to say that the attempt did not meet with any satisfactory results. We here find the same difficulty that they find at Home in dealing with this question. The Imperial Parliament have devoted a great deal of attention to the discussing of the question, with, probably, about the same results experienced here. The subject is one on which men hold strong, if not extreme views, and it is not to be wondered at —bearing in mind the great evils of drunkenness—that thoughtful men do hold strong views upon it. At the same time I cannot but think that the advocates of total abstinence do their cause great injury by forgetting that the majority 'of mankind believe the moderate use of wines and other stimulants is not only permissible, but positively beneficial. I believe that self-control, bred of culture and self-respect—to say nothing of religion—is more likely to be of good effect than any amount of legislation society will submit to. The introduction of tine State Forests. Bill resulted in a very interesting debate on a subject which has had a great deal of attention given to it in other countries. The Premier, in moving the second reading of the Bill, showed that he had bestowed upon it a great deal of attention and care, and brought to bear upon it an earnestness and zeal deserving of every commendation. Unfortunately, many members looked upon the Bill as a device on the part of the Government to obtain the landed estate of the Provinces for the Colony, and thus, by a side-wind, get for the General Government assistance to its revenue at the expense of the Provinces. The opposition thus raised prevented a really useful measure from becoming law—-at least in the shape in which it was introduced. The opposition became so strong that the Government were compelled to accept the Bill in a mutilated form, in order to prevent its being lost altogether. At any rate, even in the present form of the Bill, its principles have been so far affirmed by Parliament that the work of legislation in- that direction will be made much easier in future. It will, however, remain that this State Forests Bill will possess a historical interest, irrespective of the merits of the question, inasmuch as it brought about the chief feature of the session. I need hardly say that I allude to the resolutions involving constitutional changes. In effect, the State Forests Bill paved the way to this. Mr. Vogel, in moving that resolution, or series of resolutions, for abolishing the Provincial system in the North Island, and for fixing by Statute the seat of Government at Wellington, and to confirm the compact of 1856, said that the action of the Government was precipitated by the course adopted by certain members during the debate on that Bill, for he held that the opposition to that measure was based upon Provincial grounds alone. The fact remains that the Government took the House and country by surprise in this matter. It is abundantly evident that within a few hours before tabling the motion the Government had no intention—at all events during that session—of disturbing existing institutions. It cannot he supposed that, if the Government had contemplated making such radical changes in the system of government in this island, no reference whatever would have been made to it in the speech made by His Excellency in opening Parliament. Moreover, read the Finahcial Statement made a few days before, and what do we find ? We find there no notice of any intention to abolish Provincialism. On the contrary, we find that ways and means had been provided to enable the Provinces to carry out their functions in a proper manner. I do not say the Government were wrong in bringing down these resolutions, but still they took the House by surprise. Let us go further. It was understood on all hands that the session would be a short one, and that no important legislation would he introduced. This understanding was accepted by the House and by the country, because it was thought better to leave the Government in peace and quietness and undisturbed by any exciting legislation, in order to enable them to give their undivided attention to the public works they had in hand. Notwithstanding this understanding the Government broke ground on this, the most dangerous of all subjects. I say again that in this matter the Government took the House by surprise, although I do not say. that they did wrong. Let us consider these resolutions. By them tho House has decided that Provincialism shall cease in the North Island ; they have decided that Wellington shall be fixed as the permanent seat of Government, and that the localisation of the land revenue as provided by the compact of 1856 shall be continued. You will observe that there are three distinct questions. The two last have no necessary connection with the first, and I propose to deal with these two. With regard to the seat of Government not many w r orda are required from me. Wellington is the capital, and ought to he, because it is so situated ns to be a convenient and central spot from which to administer the Government of the Colony; and X am not aware that it was the intention on the part of any one to disturb that arrangement, but I say that if the Legislature decided that it was expedient to make a change, no Act that might bo put upon the Statute Book -would prevent them giving effect to their wishes. The, compact of 1856 is a matter entirely different. But, so far as it is proposed to make it binding upon the Colony by an Act of the Legislature, it is on all-fours with the question of the compact ; because so long as it is considered proper and expedient to maintain the compact of 1856 in force, so long will it remain so, and no act of the General Assembly will make it more binding upon the Colony than it is at present. I have never been able to satisfy myself how far that socalled compact is binding as a point of honor between the North and South. . Is it an engagement, the breaking of which would be dishonorable ; or is it an arrangement which Parliament even has no right to reconsider ? It is difficult to understand how the Parliament of a united Colony could enter into any arrangement, the effect of which would be an inequality of taxation. It has always appeared to me that the essence of fair legislation was perfect equality in the burdens of taxation ; and it is manifest that this compact has not realised that idea, and must

continue to result in an inequality of taxation It has had that effect for years. For instance, soma parts of the Colony have had to bear the burden of education and the cost of maintaining roads purely by taxation, while other portions of the Colony have been enabled to meet those burdens out of laud revenue and endowments of land. It is only fair to say that within, the last two years the Government have been making extensive purchases of Native lauds, and these purchases have been made at the expense of the whole Colony, and they will he handed over to the North Island to he dealt with on the same principle as tho lands in the South Island are dealt with under the compact of 1856. But there is one point in connection •noth this compact of 1856 to which insufficient attention has been given. At the time that arrangement was entered into by the Government they had the monopoly of the purchase of land from the Natives, hut within a few years the Native Lands Act of 1862 was passed, and that Act enabled the Natives to sell to private individuals on precisely the same terms as to • the Government. Hence the Act giving the. Government a monopoly in the purchase of Native lands became a dead letter. With regard to the localisation of the land revenue. It is of importance we should understand what is meant by it. Otago and Canterbury understand by it that Provincial Councils shall appropriate the, land revenue, not necessarily that the proceeds of the land shall be spent in the district in which it is raised. It is quite competent for the Provincial Council of Otago to spend money raised in the extreme south and west—in the neighborhood of Oamaru or around Dunedin, as they may think proper. Hence Provincialism has become in many instances a form of centralisation, and I believe this is the chief reason why complaints are heard in outdistricts of other Provinces besides those I have named. But let us come now to the main question. Should Provincialism be abolished ? The proposal is one of a funda mental character, and deserves very grave consideration, not only at the hands of the representatives of the people of the Colony, hut at the hands of the people themselves. It is much easier to destroy than to build up — much easier to abolish the Provinces than to substitute a system of local self-government in its place. The House of Representatives has decided that Provincialism shall cease in this, the North Island, but has not so far told ns what is to take its place, except generalising in this way—that the island shall be divided into districts and sub-districts, endowed with substantial revenues, and that the residents therein shall be able to take a more active j>art in the management of local affairs and the expenditure of local revenues than they have hitherto been able to do. What is meant by substantial endowments I do not know ; but I am confident of this, if you abolish Provincialism, you will not necessarily reduce taxation. Having said so much, I will now say that I never was a warm Provinoialist. I found it in existence here, and I have taken part in a humble way in its administration ; hut when I first came to the Colony it struck ms—as it probably must have struck most new comers—that it was a wonderfully complex system of government, resulting in division and jealousies rather than in unity and strength. Insularly situated as we are, we are free from those border questions which so trouble the neighboring Colonies of Australia. Notably free as we are from those questions, we create artificial divisions and boundaries that really have no meaning. True, these divisions do not affect- the collection of Customs’ revenue, as in Australia, though they affect us in very important particulars. I may take for instance the land law's of the Colony. Can any system bo a good one that results in such a variety of regulations for the disposal of the waste lands of the Crown. A few years ago there was a volume published with the avowed object of letting the world know what our land regulations really were. It is an enormous volume, almost requiring a porter to carry it, but although only published a few years ago, it can be but of little use, seeing how many land laws the Government has since passed. I do not believe that there are twenty men in the Colony who understand the various laws that affect the sale of lands in the different Provinces. I do not say that there should be a uniform price for land—that would he absurd ; ■ hut I can see no reason why there should not be one uniform system. If, for the sake of argument, we admit that Provincialism was in times gone the best system of Government for the Colony, surely it may be very well argued that that time has gone by. Perhaps the strongest argument that the time has gone by is this, that in virtue of the Public Works and Immigration Act of 1870 the General Government practically took over all colonising functions that previously appertained to Provincial Governments ; and this not so much because they wished to do so, but because the Provincial Governments had practically ceased to perform those functions. I am not going to detract one iota from the work that has been done by the various Provinces ; and of this present Provincial Government of Wellington , I will say it has done an immense deal of good work notwithstanding much opposition —notwithstanding half-hearted support on the part of the Provincial Council—and in spite of crippling treatment at the hands of the General Assembly. But this state of things cannot continue. It is clear that it is a struggle for existence on the' part of every Province ; I do not even except the Provinces of Otago and Canterbury, because their time of difficulty will come before long. I may be asked, holding these views, why did you not vote for the resolutions proposed by the Go%'ernment ? True,. you did not vote against them ; why not for them? Well, I might answer that they were brought down, as it were, on the spur of the moment; not out of forethought but out of pique. I might answer that the time was unfortunately chosen, inasmuch as it was desired on all hands that the Government should he left in peace ; whereas, the bringing down of these resolutions introduced an element of discord. It was on all hands desired that the Government should he left free from all exciting questions of legislation, so that they might be able to give their undivided attention to the work in hand. I might give these as reasons why I did not vote for the resolutions. They deserved more careful consideration at the hands of the Government than evidently they received, for the Ministry practically admitted that they were brought down under feelings of irritation. I might have added that tho resolutions involved three distinct proposals, to two of which I might have said “aye,” and to tho third “ no.” I might give these reasons, hut I have a stronger one. I have a very strong dislike to any special or exceptional legislation for the North Island. If there is anything in the argument that the Provinces of Otago and Canterbury can with advantage continue to carry on Provincial legislation and Provincial administration, that argument can not apply to three out of five of the Provinces of the Middle Island, for it cannot be said that Wellington and Hawke’s Bay are in a worse position than Marlborough, Nelson, and Westland. Why, then, exceptional legislation for the North Island ? It seems to me that this is no more weak feeling of jealousy. I hold that such exceptional legislation trenches too closely on insular separation. Separation of any kind will receive my most strenuous opposition. Cook Strait should be looked upon as a convenient highway—not as a mark of separation, either physical or political. Marlborough and Nelson are practically closer to Wellington than they are to Canterbury. I wish you to understand me thoroughly, in making those, remarks, that notwithstanding my strong objection to any exceptional legislation for tho North Island—notwithstanding : my great dislike for anything approaching to insular separation—l hold myself absolutely free to vote for the Bill when it comes down next session, because I may be able to satisfy myself that the Bill is only a step in tho direction of a system of uniform government throughout the Colony. (Applause.) If I am satisfied that that is the tendency of the Bill, I shall vote for it. I refuse to believe that New Zealand cannot be governed as other countries are. I refuse to believe that local self-government can only exist with Provincial Executives and Provincial Councils. Unquestionably, the abolition of Provincialism is only a question of time. The South Island knows this thoroughly well I shall not grieve when

*hat time arrives. If no strong public fooling manifests itself, it is because the people aro so well off that all are too well off and too busy to care for the way in which they are governed. There never was a time since the Colony was founded that people generally were doing so well for themselves. Immigrants who come to the Colony need not complain of having to share our burdens, .because they also share our present prosperity, and hopes of a bright future. I believe there is no country so suitable for Englishmen out of England as New Zealand, I do not think I have anything more to say, except to thank you for your courtesy in listening to mo so patiently. (Loud applause). Mr. Hunter : After the very able and exhaustive speech you have had the pleasure of listening to, it really appears superfluous to say anything, because Mi". Pearce has given an account of his stewardship throughout the recent session, and ho and I have in this as -in previous sessions been able to act and vote together. We were returned upon the same ticket—pledged to support the great public works policy. Mr. Pearce in the last subject he touched upon has indicated the only question upon which he and I entertain somewhat different views. Those which I hold upon that subject I gave expression to in my place in the House of Representatives, and my speech was published in the New Zealand Times the other day. I daresay many of you have perhaps taken the trouble to read it. If I were to say much upon the matter it would only be to repeat wbat I there said, but I must again state that_ my opinion of the desirability of the change indicated is certainly not so strong in its favor as that of my colleague. I have yet to see what is proposed to be giveu to us in exchange for that local self-government under which we have existed since 1850, and to which I think may be traced the high and prosperous positional! which this Colony now stands. It is quite true we owe a great deal to the General Government for wbat they have done in the last three or four years; but they have built upen a foundation, which was laid throughout the length and breadth of the Colony, by the Provincial authorities. It is all very well to say that the Provinces are exhausted, and must die; but how have they been exhausted ? By the General Government. Many of you will remember that when the Provincial system of government was introduced, two-thirds of the Consolidated Revenue of the country was handed over to the Provinces for expenditure; but by one process or another, that has been diminished. It is true that it was mainly caused by the unfortunate war, which compelled us to raise money at any expense and cost; but tbat is not an inherent defect of Provincial institutions. I have yet to be convinced tbat when that comes, which sooner or later must come upon us—increased taxation that such taxation will be better administered by the General Government than it would be by the various Provincial Governments, or will be less unpalatable to the people than if it were in the hands of representatives locally answerable to them, and living -upon the spot. {Applause.) We hear a great deal about local self-government and endowments, but, to my mind, those endowments can only come from one source, and that is out of the pockets of the people.. With regard to the land fund, when this Colony was first established, it was recognised as part of the scheme that the land fund was to be expended in making improvements upon roads and bridges, and in opening up the country for occupation. I need not tell you what we have all become convinced of, that unless country is opened up for settlement it is valueless. What is the use of one hundred thousand acres of land to a man if he cannot get to it, or get anything away from it. It is only by opening up the country that you make it of value to the State and cause it to be reproductive to the holder, and indeed to the State, because it will then bear taxation. I do not propose to address you at any length upon the subject, because I do not think it necessary, for no doubt a great many of you have thought it out for yourselves. Of course there will be Provincialists amongst us, and Centralists amongst us; but the position I take up is this : This subject will be brought up in the next Parliament, if the Government carry out the pledge they have given, they will introduce a Bill containing conditions which will indicate to us what is proposed to be given in exchange for what is to be taken away ; and if I then have the honor of filling the position of one of your representatives, it will be my duty to give that Bill my best consideration, and to satisfy myself as far as I possibly can what are the views entertained by my constituents. If, in a point of this kind, upon which I entertain strong impressions and convictions, I should be satisfied that these convictions were not shared and entertained by those I had the honor of representing, it would be my duty to get out of the way, and allow gome other person to occupy the position which I felt I could not conscientiously fill. (Cheers.) With respect to this matter, I need not say more than that this is the courselhave marked out for myself ; I shall give the Bill my beat consideration, and being as I am in the midst of my constituents, always at hand and amenable to censure or to praise, there con be no misunderstanding between us on this point. My action will be governed by the Bill which is put before us, and although I hold strong views on this subject, if I am clear we are going to get something tbat will be an improvement on that which we have at the present time, I will support the change, hut not otherwise. (Applause). Mr. Pearce has referred to one or two Bills which were brought under the consideration of Parliament last session, and I agree generally with what he said about the Purest Bill. The papers which were brought forward in support of that measure were very elaborate and creditable to the hon. gentleman who introduced that Bill. I thought it was one of those cases tbat required a little more thought and consideration, but in voting for the expenditure that was authorised by Parliament, I did so because I thought that very good effects would accrue from a comprehensive inquiry into the subject made by persons conversant with. forestry. I felt we were travelling to a great extent in the dark, and recognised that as there is great dissimilarity between the condition of the two Islands as regards timber —in the North Island there is a great abundance, and in the South a scarcity—legislation that would meet the requiromeuts of both Islands must he of a very dissimilar character. Another measure which was introduced, the Pacific Islands Trade Encouragement Bill, was a very grand scheme, and if we had an abundance of money and a surplus revenue, it might be very desirable to enter into undertakings of that kind. It would no doubt be very beneficial to New Zealand; but while we require so much money for public works we cannot afford to give a guarantee upon one or two millions of money. The opinions which I hold upon this subject were generally shared by members of the House, and the Bill was allowed to lapse. A measure which I consider useful, the Excise '.Duties Act, was passed. It enabled the Government to equalise the duties upon spirits manufactured in the Colony and those imported. I have always been ready to declare iny views upon the Free Trade question; and I, as a free-trader, contend that it was wrong and improper to endeavor to make an industry flourish, which would not flourish without artificial encouragement; besides, this is a trade which, of all others, should not be encouraged in this Colony. If a person drinks spirits, the beat tiling for him - to do is to drink the best spirits ho can get, and that ho is not likely to do by taking those of Colonial manufacture. (Hear, hear, and laughter). 1 am travelling upon a subject with which I may bo supposed not to have much knowledge or experience; but my impression is that Colonial spirit has been used in a very mischievous manner in adulterating spirits of a superior quality. Therefore, I think that upon that '-round alone it was desirable to pass the Bill ° I was one of the committee that recommended the alteration, and I was very happy to find that the House voted a sum to compensate the proprietors of the two existing distilleries. Both of them will ho closed in eighteen months, unless they can afford to pay duty at the same rate as upon imported Hpiritß. I entirely agree with many

of Mr. Pearce’s remarks with reference to the Licensing Bill. I am a total abstainer, but I have never denied to others the liberty I claim for myself. (Cheers.) I use my discretion upon these matters, and I consider it my duty to argue in favor of, and support as far as I possibly can, the principle of total abstinence. If there were more total abstainers it would be better for ns all. The best thing to be done with the liquor trade is to make it respectable, and raise its character, and that can only bo done by a measure containing provisions such as those proposed by Mr. Vogel. You cannot get over the fact that no legislation will shut up all public-houses, but we can by means of an effective police and wise legislation, in a great degree correct that which is admittedly one of°the greatest evils of the age. There is no legislation in the world that will make people virtuous and good ; we must educate them, and bring them up well, and encourage the young to be total abstainers, that is the only means by which we shall prosper and succeed in the cause. My colleague did not refer to a measure which passed the House of Representatives, but was thrown out by the Council—the Te Aro Reclamation Bill. I need not say much about that, as you are all acquainted with the facts; and I noticed in an evening paper of to-day a letter unit ten, I imagine, by a member of the Upper House, giving the reasons that induced the Council to reject the Bill. For some reasons it is to be regretted that it was not passed, because if permission bad been given to raise the money, and it bad been judiciously expended, the result would have been advantageous to the City; but I hope the passing of tbe measure is only deferred. Possibly if the City Council had asked for .£50,000 in the first instance they might have obtained tbe Act and they could have raised more money after some of tbe laud had been reclaimed, by moans of another Bill. That plan had been adopted with the waterworks and in some other cases. Another useful Act which was passed was that for the abolition of imprisonment for debt, which, I think, in a civilised country must be recognised as a measure of importance. I do not think tbat I need say much about financial matters. A good deal has been spoken about the position of the Province at present compared to what it was -three or four years ago, and if I were asked where you could get the best description of the condition of the Province, I should refer you to a speech of the Hon. Mr. Fox, delivered in the House of Representatives in August last, and reported in Hansard. It is not, perhaps, worth while to go into many matters connected ■with Provincial finance; but I may mention that since the Provincial Government, of which I am a bumble member, has been in office, there has been a sum of about £21,000 expended on roads—thirty-eight bridges have been built, and a great deal of other work has been performed. The Provincial Government of "Wellington has also, since the Immigration scheme was inaugurated, assisted the General Government in distributing and locating oyer .7000 immigrants. You are all" aware that very strong accusations have been brought against the Provincial Government of Wellington, and we have been accused of being one of the causes necessitating those large changes in the Constitution, proposed by the General Government. I am of opinion we have not misbehaved to the extent represented. With reference to the City, I would simply say that the Provincial Government have made great improvements to the gaol—(laughter)— have built a new lunatic asylum ; have aided the College, aud have made a road to Evans’ Bay at a considerable expenditure. In any remarks I may make with reference to the improved condition of the Province, I wish to guard myself against reflecting in any possible way upon those who preceded us in the Provincial Government. You all know that, although 1 had a seat in the Provincial Council since 1858, 1 was not connected with the Executive until the present Superintendent was elected; neither was Mr. Bunny—that was about four years ago. Previous to that the affairs of the Province were presided over by the present Agent-General (Dr. Featherston). I do not wish in any degree to detract from what Dr. Featherston did. You have only to look round tills City, see the reclaimed land, the Queen’s wharf, and the patent slip, and to remember the matter of the Manawatu land purchase, and above all tbe seat of Government question, when all must admit that Dr. Featherston was a zealous administrator, and had at heart the interests of this Province as much as any man living. He did everything a man could, but he could not control events. Owing to the disturbances on tbe West Coast, sales of land were suspended, and at the same time the General Government were, by degrees and degrees, reducing the revenue of the Provinces. The consequence was that we came to stagnation, and that was recognised when Mr. Fitzherbert assumed the post of Superintendent of this Province. The Provincial Government applied _ to the General Government, and they- assisted ns in passing that Bill, known as the Wellington Debts Act, by which tbe Province was authorised to borrow £86,000. The Provincial authorities, however, only raised £75,000, and within four -months were able to hand over that amount of debentures, signed by the agent of tbe Feilding Association, which bore a°higher rate of interest than the Province had to pay, consequently that debt w-as virtually extinguished. There was another transaction by which the City Council became possessed of the wharf and the reclaimed land, and they took over a liability of the Province, amounting to £31,000, upon which they have paid interest. Under the Land Reclamation Bill which was passed last session ws obtained and handed over to the General Government £25,000. Thus we reduce the liabilities of the Province by £56,000. The liabilities of Wellington, as compared with other Provinces, are small, and interest aud sinking fund has only to be paid upon something like £24-1,000. In this Province the capitation allowance very much more than pays the interest on that debt. It is not so in some of tbe larger Provinces, for their capitation allowance and a considerably larger amount is absorbed _ in the payment of their interest and sinking fund. Mr. Pearce referred to the indebtedness of the Colony, and laid down the liability of the various Provinces at £3,500,000, but this debt is in course of extinction, though by a process which I think is very vicious, that of a sinking .fund. If kept up as at the present time, the sinking fund will gradually extinguish the whole of that debt, so that from the £18,000,000 which ray colleaguerepresentsas the debt of the Colony, we should bo entitled to substract £3,500,000. Supposing the Provinces ceased to exist, that debt would become one of the Colonial Government, and they will receive a larger income than they do at present, because they will not have _ to provide for the sinking fund. . While upon that subject, I may observe there has been a great deal said by many people about the indebtedness of the Colony, and no doubt it is a very proper question to consider. I am one of those who do not view it with such alarm as many persons do. I think this country is able to bear the burden we are incurring; what Mr. Pearce said about the railways is perfectly true. We are paying the cost of constructing these railways, but at present are deriving revenue from a very small portion of them. As an example of what wo may expect, we have only to take the little line to the Hutt, which is bringing in three times as much revenue as the most sanguine person expected. The receipts will go on increasing more and more as the line is extended. And it will be so throughout the Colony. We are paying £SOOO per mile for railways, but wo have been paying as much for ordinary roads, and wo have to maintain them afterwards. Now we shall get the benefit of cheap and rapid communication at no very large additional cost. I am free to admit that we have not yet arrived at • the extent of our borrowing and wo shall have to borrow more. (Applause.) I shall bo prepared to say stop borrowing the moment we find our income diminishing, but as long as we have our annual revenue increasing I say we are justified in borrowing. Last year the revenue increased to the extent of £300,000, and that would pay interest at the rate of five per cent, upon £6,000,000. Something was said during discussions in the Assembly and elsewhere tbat the Government and the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government

were enemies of Wellington, but X am not one of those who entertain that opinion. I amnot .the least afraid to say what I think. I shall always speak my mind, and, if it is not acceptable, I cannot help it. We have a great many facts to prove that this accusation is not true. Mr. Vogel assisted this Province when it was in its deepest difficulties. (Cheers.) He assisted iu passing the Wellington Debts Act, without which the Provincial authorities would have been helpless, Great good has resulted from the assistance given us at that time, aud we ought not to be above acknowledging it. In many ways Mr. Vogel has shown a good feeling towards us, as indeed he has to the whole Colony, His political position and character are dependent on the progress of New Zealand, aud he is the most prominent man iu it. (Cheers.) None of us aro absolutely perfection, I suppose, and Mr. Vogel may make mistakes by attempting too much ; but still he does devote himself to this Colony, and to all public questions, in a manner which, to my mind, is above all praise. (Renewed applause.) I think he has been—as ho assured us he would be —thoroughly loyal upon the question of the seat of Government. That is a subject upon which wo have strong convictions, and I believe Wellington is tbo proper place _ for the capital of New Zealand ; and it will remain the capital if for no other reason than that it is the best site. One thing after another strengthens its position. Last session the Government obtained a vote of £33,000 for new public buildings, and a vote of £3OOO was taken for additions to the Colonial Museum. Wellington gets a good share of votes on the Estimates, and it has had a fair amount of consideration at the hands of the General Government. I think New Zealand is fortunate in having a Government composed as the present administration is. Sir Donald McLean is an old personal friend of mine. I have been acquainted with him for many, many years—and I think it would be impossible to have a better man for the office which 1m now occupies. We have had peace and prosperity in this country since he assumed the charge of the Native department, aud there is less and less prospect of that which would ruin New Zealand—a Native war. (Cheers.) Old .settlors know what that means—stagnation and loss of credit. And loss of credit would now do perhaps more harm to the Colony than anything else. The Government was more than fortunate when they obtained the services of Mr. Richardson, the Minister for Public Works, who is a practical man. It would be almost impossible to get in the main better administrators than we have at the present time. Some people object to one member of the' Government—Mr. Reynolds—but I think that gentleman is something like myself, a plain business man, a man of common sense, who understands business matters. It is a useful thing for a Government to have a business man amongst its members. Besides, Mr. Reynolds is a representative of the Province of Otago, and it should be remembered that Otago is the moat prosperous and influential Province in the Colony, and yields the largest revenue, and yet not a single member from that Province was in the Ministry until he joined it. There is one subject which I cannot help alluding to briefly, and it is worthy of great consideration. It is the position of the two Houses of the Legislature in New Zealand, which I look upon as perhaps the darkest picture we have before us. The Houses have avoided coming into direct collision, but I do not think antagonism can be avoided much longer. I am afraid that the country will not be satisfied with the position in which matters stand. I am bound to speak of the Upper House with all proper respect, as composed of highly influential and respectable gentlemen ; but X am free to admit I am afraid they do think too much of themselves. (Great cheering.) I am aware I am treading on delicate ground. I recognise that there is a class in this country, and X am one of them, who have been fortunate enough to acquire considerable lauded estates. There is no doubt whatever that by the carrying out of the Public Works policy those estates are becoming much more valuable, and I am prepared for one to take my share of the burden imposed upon the country. (Applause.) I am not stating this for. the first time, and it is one of the questions which the people of this country will have to think over, and one which their representatives will have to think over. I cannot help reflecting upon the legislation of the'last session or two. You will recollect that the session before last a number of loan Bills were rejected by the Council which had been carried by largo majorities in the Lower House. Those Bills would have enabled the various Provinces to borrow sums of money which would have been of very great benefit to the Provinces and to the Colony. I am satisfied that the Public- Werics scheme must go hand in hand with the construction of local works, and while we carry main lines of railway through the country, we must construct branches to communicate with the trunk liues._ We are going to great expense in bringing people to the Colony who will _ bo employed and earn wages readily, but in process of time they will wish to purchase land and occupy the country. It is a happy thing for us to think that no country in the world offers greater inducements than the Colony of Now Zealand to those who wish to become holders of land, and that is especially the case in the Provinces of Wellington and Hawke's Bay. We have seen a large number of immigrants absorbed by this Province, a number that would contrast favorably with the immigrants introduced into Canterbury aud Otago. We have really absorbed in the Province of Wellington nearly as many immigrants as some of the larger Provinces, and I ascribe that to the fact that the land is well suited for them. I must, however, admit that some of the immigrants who have arrived here have been sent to other ports. We all recognise that population makes the country great. Some twenty years ago yon might on Saturday evening walk twenty yards along the principal street in Wellington without meeting an individual, and now you can scarcely get along, the paths are so crowded. If that progress is carried out throughout the whole Colony, what a prosperous one it will become. The session before last the Upper House threw out the Loan Bills X have referred to, although the Government fulfilled their promise to support them. This session another important measure —the Railway Bill—was thrown out in the same way, and the reason was that it would enable the Provinces of Canterbury and Otago to sell their railways to the General Government, in the same way as the Government of this Province made a sale to the Corporation. By that means the Provinces of Otago and Canterbury would have received iu one case £500,000 or £600,000, and in , the other a larger sum, which would have been the purchase of the railways by valuation. Tbat money would have gone into the Provincial Revenue, and would have enabled those Provinces to make more roads and bridges and open up additional country. I will not admit for one moment tbat tbe funds administered by the Provincial Governments have not been expended to the very best advantage. That has been admitted in various debates, and _ in one of the last debates in the Legislative Council the Hon. Mr. Holmes, speaking of the administration of affairs in Otago, said it would compare very favorably with the administration of the General Government. I believe in expending money the Provincial Governments look more closely into matters aud manage more economically than the General Government do. X think the General Government are improving in the administration, but difficulties aro incidental to the initiation of a new order of things. The old system has been in operation for twenty-five years, and the new, which has been in existence but for four or five years, is acquiring the perfection which it at present lacks. When the land compact of 1856 was made, certain conditions existed with respect to tho purchase of Native lands in tho North Island, and provision was also made for the New Zealand Land Company’s debt. I am speaking from memory, but I think that was one of tho ingredients of tbe conpaot. I do not think tbo question of this compact is a • very important matter, because we shall acquire, in the North Island, within a few years, a landed estate as

large and valuable as any in the South, if not more so. Some of the land in this Province and Hawke’s Bay is worth ten times as much as that in tho Southern Provinces, and that is one reason _ why I think we should bo very chary iu giving up this system of government. As this land acquires population, so will there be taxation, which will ho wore acceptable if administered locally than it can possibly be if controlled by the General Government. In conclusion, I will say that I feel my position as your .representative one of high honor, and I entertain the same feeling towards Wellington that a man is supposed to have for the land that gave him birth. I wish Wellington well ; I desire to see it prosperous; and I hope to see it the capital of New Zealand in reality. (Cheers.) I trust to see Wellington iu a high position, and as a prosperous Province; and as long as' I have the honor to be one of your representatives I shall endeavor to maintain it in that position. (Loud cheers.) I am now prepared like my colleague to answer any questions. t Mr. George Allan asked Mr.:,-Hunter s views with regard to - the Californian mail service. Mr. Hunter considered it was a most valuable service, and one that ought to be maintained. It seemed to him very hard that they never received from the Imperial Government the pecuniary assistance that was rendered to the Suez line, though that no doubt was given because the mails to India were carried by it. If the Californian service was to be maintained, the Colonies of Now South Wales and New Zealand will have to make up their minds to pay a larger sum of money than they are now doing ; and I, as one of tho representatives of 'the people, should be disposed to vote that the sum be increased, provided the service were made good and efficient. On the motion of Mr. Martin, a vote of thanks was passed to the members for the City. A vote of thanks to the chairman terminated the proceedings. MR. REEVES AT AVON. (By Electric Teleyraph.) Christchurch, Wednesday. Hr. Beeves addressed his constituents in the Selwyu district last night. He spoke for over two hours, giving a resurad of Ids genex-al conduct during the past two sessions of tho Assembly. He had been called a thorough-paced supporter of Mr, Vogel, but he contended that while giving a general aud generous support, he had always acted as an independent member. As a proof of this, he pointed out that he had opposed the Brogden contracts ; also the Government proposals to take land - from Provinces as security for the payment of railways ; also the Government measure entitled Provincial Loans Empowering Acts ; - and he referred to his action with respect to immigration, which,-he thought, showed great mismanagement on the part of the Government. He had supported the public works policy, and would do so again, and only wished Mr. Vogel had confined himself to carrying out that policy before introducing such large constitutional changes. Referring to the last session, he said that Ministers recessional orations preceding the Governor’s speech, and Mr. Vogel’s remarks when making the Financial Statement, distinctly laid down that the session would be short, and that no important measures would be introduced, yet a great constitutional change was promulgated. He believed that the idea of the abolition of Provinces in tbe North Island was suddenly adopted. The Forests’ Bill, which the Provincial party opposed, was opposed because it was thought that its introduction was the insertion of the thin edge of the wedge, to enable the Colonial Government to possess themselves of the landed estate of the Provinces. On that subject some strong remarks were made by Mr. Fitzherbert, which seemed to irritate Mr. Vogel, who cautioned Mr. Fitzherbert not to be surprised if the defeat of the Bill should lead to the consequences which the Provincial party did not contemplate. Yet Mr. Yogel afterwards said that “ all the assertions that have been made about my having come down with the resolutions because of irritation as connected with the Province of Wellington are very wide of the mark.” Shortly after the debate on the Forest Bill was over it was rumored that a Bill would be brought in to abolish the Northern Provinces, but that intention was abandoned, aud Mr. Vogel said it was not brought iu because it was thought that legislation of that kind might be regarded as “ legislation by surprise.” The Government thought, said Mr. Vogel on that occasion, that tho change would be more acceptable if an expression of a desire in favor of it came from the country. From tins, aud other remarks that fell from Mr. Vogel, he (Mr. Reeves) thought that Government would prefer waiting for an expression of public opinion, and therefore he had thought that a Bill would not be brought down, but simply have resolutions stating to the House that it was the opinion of the Government that there should be a constitutional change next session in tho direction of the abolition of the Provinces of the Northern Island. But the Ministry again altered their mind, and brought down resolutions seeking to pledge the House to abolish- the Provinces of tho North Island, and held out threats of a dissolution if those resolutions were not carried. At a meeting of the Provincial party which he (Mr. Reeves) did not attend, it was decided to ask him as an independent member of the House, to propose “the previous question.” After consideration he decided to do so, but he emphatically denied that he did so with any Intention—as had been erroneously reported against him—of ousting the Government on that question. He z’egarded the action of Mr. O’Rorke as highly creditable to that hon. gentleman, both as' to the manner and the motive of that resignation. The resolutions were carried after a very inconsiderable debate. Amendments in favor of an appeal to the country, and for the circulation of the measure at least two months before it was introduced to Parliament, were lost. Mr. Stafford opposed the latter, notwithstanding that when he was Premier the Local Government Bill was circulated some months before it was introduced, Mr. Yogel bad stated tbat the compact of 1856 should be preserved intact; but the supporters of abolition were opposed to that view, and Mr. Reader Wood had stated that at tho caneps it was agreed that the preservation of the ' compact of 1856 was not an important part of tho scheme, and that no uneasiness regarding it need he entertained by tho supporters of abolition. This had been pointed out to Mr. Vogel, and not denied by him, the Premier merely stating that Mr. Reader Wood was not quite correct iu his version of what had occurred. The. South Island, therefore, should receive with considerable doubt the original statement of the Government, to tho effect that they intended to stand or fall by their support of the compact of 1856. Ho (Mr. Reeves) opposed the abolition resolutions because ho considered the time most inopportune for their introduction, and most particularly injudicious when it was remembered that the Government were engaged in carrying out an important policy which was still in its infancy ; because no demand for such a change had been made by tho people ; because he thought that a Parliament elected mainly to: carry on a policy of public works aud immigration without reference to large constitutional changes was not a Parliament that should be asked to carry out such changes. It was not a Parliament that would likely bo in a frame of mind, or temper, to fairly, thoroughly, and honestly consider so largo a question ; and it had shown itself more energetic in debating whether it would or would not add £SO to the “ honorarium" of hon. members than in debating the Fmauciul Statement, or that of the Minister for Public Works, or that of tho Minister for Immigration. Ho also objected to the propositions of the Government because it was a most novel and unheardof experiment to alter the Constitution Act as regarded one-half of tho Colony, while tho other half was left undisturbed. New Zealand was already proverbial for its system of double government, but this would be a system of treble government. He bad studied the matter carefully, but as yet had only seen the •beginning of a period of difficulties which was about to set in. Curiously enough, the resolutions said tbo Northern _ Provinces should be abolished without referring to

any system of government that should be substituted for it. One of the first effects of abolition in these Provinces would bo that all their ordinances would, cease to exist, r l he Assembly would then have to legislate for the North Island ; and thus they would have the anomaly of an Assembly elected from both parts of the Colony legislating and financing under two different constitutions. Great difficulties would be the result in the department of the Treasurer ; in fact, it was impossible to overrate them. The reasons that had led to the doing away with the county form of Government in Westland had shown that. He (Hr. Keeves) also opposed the resolutions because he thought that no experimental change of the Constitution of the kind contemplated .should be made without a direct appeal having first been made to the country. If the North Island Provinces were abolished, those of the South Island were indubitably bound to follow, and then—as a logical sequence —the land revenue would become the property of the Colony, and the Assembly would appropriate it as it thought best. When it was remembered that there were in all seventy-eight members of the Assembly it would be seen that Canterbury and Otago would have very little power over those appropriations. It had been said that Provincial institutions interfered with the prosecution of public works, hut when he was Minister for Public Works, and was questioned in the House on the subject, he did not say so ; and he (Mr. Beeves) when Kesicleut Minister, received the greatest assistance from the Provincial authorities. In fact, so far from interfering with the progress of public works, they did a great deal to assist in carrying out works of public utility. It had also been said that the Provinces had interfered with the policy of immigration. But Mr. Vogel, as the Minister for Immigration, had wisely denuded himself of his powers, and put them on to the Superintendents. Again : if it had not been for the assistance of the Provinces, in erecting immigrants’ houses, &c., most disastrous effects would have resulted from the present large influx of immigrants. It had also been said that the Provinces impeded the proper government of the Natives. But when he (Mr. Keeves) asked Sir Donald McKean in the House if he had not received very large assistance from the Provincial Governments, by which much bloodshed and disaster had been avoided, the Native Minister said “ hear, hear.” The real reason for the proposed change was purely a financial one; and he thought that if the Government had had the pluck to say that the Colony was engaged in large undertakings, was borrowing large sums, and wanted larger security, and a larger area of revenue to work upon—-if they had done this, instead of driving at the land revenue in a variety of indirect ways—he believed the majority of the House would have been ready to meet the requirements of the Government, and to make such an apportionment of the laud revenue as would meet their necessities. The people would have submitted readily to such a proposal rather than to additional taxation. He (Mr. Reeves) was not an ultrapiovincialist, but was able to take a dispassionate view of every question that came before him. He asserted that the proposed change was undesirable in every way, and that no such change as was proposed should be attempted without the whole subject having been specially referred to the constituencies. Mix Beeves was frequently cheered whilst he was speaking, and on the conclusion of his address, a vote of confidence in him was passed unanimously.

MR. SHEEHAN AT GBAHAMSTOWN. Mr. Sheehan, M.H.E., was entertained at a banquet at Grahamstown on Tuesday night. Mr. Sheehan, in replying to the toast of his health spoke nearly an hour. Referring to the opposition offered to the Waste Lands Act in the Upper House, he said he was not inclined to go to extremes regarding the Upper House, which had given evidences of a sound conservative spirit. There was one question, however, in which they were always wrong, and in which they were so deeply interested that they were prevented from dealing .with it fairly and justly, and that was the question of laud. There were very few members of the Upper House without very large landed estates, and some reckoned their property by hundreds of thousands of acres. These men jealously scrutinised every measure which had for its object to enable men to acquire laud easily, and to settle down upon it. The Bill which he introduced was in the hands of such people, in the position of a person who, when going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, fell into the hands of certain company, which he need not particularly refer to. Referring to representation, he said whenever a proposal was made to give another member to a North Island constituency, it was met by the cry that the balance of power was in danger. He found the Southern goldfields members always came forward manfully and straightforwardly on the goldfields question, and the opposition to an alteration in the present representation came mainly from Wellington and Taranaki. Those Provinces knew their case was rotten, and if the House ordered an increase qf representation, it would he made at the expense of one or other of them. The claim that the Thames had to additional representation was so just, that the House could not longer delay to recognise it. He thought the Native Department viewed the proposed railway from the Thames to Waikato with disfavor. The tactics of the Native Department had been of a Fabian kind for years past. They had boon content to let “ I dare not wait upon I would” —and he believed the same department viewed with alarm every advancing wave of civilisation as hastening the time when their services would no longer bo required. He considered the veil of mystery was about to be lifted, and Ohiuemuri opened; which, if not auriferous, contained hundreds of thousands of acres, which would profitably repay men to settle down as farmers.