THE NO-CONFIDENCE DIVISION.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLIX, Issue 14928, 28 February 1912, Page 8

THE NO-CONFIDENCE DIVISION.

PARTIES BALANCED. MR. MASSEY'S MOTION LOST. SPEAKER'S CASTING TOTE. SAVES WARD PARTY. FORTY TO THIRTY-NINE, f3T TEJ.EGBAFU—SMCIAI. COBSESrQXDEXT.] WELLINGTON, Tuesday. Tuk debate on Mr. Massey's no-confidence motion came to a close- to-night, and the division which followed resulted in an even balance of parties, 59 members voting for and 39 against the motion. Five minutes before midnight the Hon. D. Buddo finished the closing speech of f the debate, and Mr. Speaker put the question. There were only 25 members in the House, many of them lying on their seats. The bell was rung, and on the stroke of midnight the Speaker again put the question to a 'full House. All eyes were turned upon Mr. Atmore (Nelson). He looked towards the " Noes" lobby, and rising from his seat walked in that direction along with Sir Joseph Ward and his party. It was at once known that the Government would win on the casting vote of the Speaker, and so it

proved. Mr. Bradney, " one of the Opposition members, did not vote till reminded to do SO.

When the lists were counted the Speaker announced that the ayes were 39 and the noes were 39. ' Mr. Speaker having announced that the voting was equal, said : " That being the case, and according to the usual constitu- j tional practice and procedure when the House is equally divided, it becomes my duty to give a casting vote. That vote is invariably given by the Speaker in order to show that in his vote he is quite impartial in tho way lie gives that vote, especially when the House is undecided whether the House has confidence or not in the Government that sits on the Government benches. As the House is undecided on that question, it is ray duty to give my vote with ' noes,' which I accordingly do, and declare the amendment lost." The following is the division list: — Against Government For Government. (39) (39) Allen Atmore Anderson Brown ■ Sell Buddo Bollard, J. Buxton Bollard, B. F. Carroll Bradaey Clark Buick Coates • Buchanan " Colvin Campbell Craigie Dickson Davey Escott •■'<•■ '■• Dickie Fisher Ell Fraser Forbes Guthrie Glover Harris Hanan Herdman Hindmsrsh Hemes Isitfc Hine Lanrenson Hunter McCallum Lang Macdonald Lee McKenzie, R. i Malcolm Mackenzie, T. Maader Millar Massey Myers Newman, Dr. Ngata Newman, S. Farata Kosworthy Payne Okey Poland Fearce Raagihiroa Pomare Reed Ehodes, E. H. Rhodes, T. W. Sc«t Robertson 1 Smith, F. H. Russell j Stataam Seddon Sykes Sidey Thomson, G. M. Smith, E. W. J Veitch Thomson, J. C. Wilson Ward Young Witty The Speaker's Casting Vote Was For The Government. There was no applause when tho result was announced. The Speaker then put the question : " That a respectful address to His Excellency the Governor, be agreed to," and this was carried on the voice*. ! The Prime Minister moved : "That the I House on rising should adjourn until j Thursday at 2.£fi p.m., in order to give the Committees of Privilege time to complete their work."

ME. MASSET'S CONGRATULATIONS. PRIME MINISTER'S THANKS. Mr. Massey : On the motion for adjournment, I wish to take the opportunity of congratulating the Pit. Hon. the Premier on his -win. (Hear, hear, and •applause.) I do not grudge it to him in the very slightest. I think ho will admit that we have put up a good fight. (Hear, hear.) Unfortunately, we were not able to overcome all the "influences brought to hear— (Ministerial laughter and uproar)—■ but I venture to predict that next time a wartt-of-confidence motion comes before the House it. will not bo decided on the easting vote of the Speaker. (Applause.) The Prime Minister, who was applauded as he rose, said : I thank the Leader of the Opposition very sincerely for the kind congratulations which he has been good enough to extend to me. I want to assure him that I recognise that his side has pat up a good fight about which no imputations of any sort or kind can be made by me. We also have put up a good fight, and the win on the casting vote of Mr. Speaker is due to the opening of the eyes of the Labour party in the country. I want to point out to all our friends on this side of the House, while thanking them for the very honourable way in which they have stood by the Government at a very trying time, that I realise the full import of the position arrived at in the House. It is not the mere fact that we are in the majority; 'it is the fact that throughout the country large numbers of people of every class" thought it desirable for various reasons to "give Government candidates not so much hearty support as on former occasions. But a split which had existed had told its tale. I also venture to predict that on the next occasion when we have a derision in this House it will not be on the casting vote of the Speaker, but it will be by the mass of the people realising the narrow escape they have had from falling into the arms of the vultures.

Mr. Massey : What amis of the vultures? (Laughter.) Sir Joseph Ward: I should say claws. It is a recognition by the people outside of Parliament, that they, in the future as they have done in the past, for the best part of a-quarter of a century, will support the Liberal Administration, and that they will not make the mistake of having a narrow escape. from a time of old Tory rule. Let me again thank tho honourable

gentleman for his kind congratulations. He is speaking from his heart. He sees the •writing on the wall. ' Mr. Payne interjected a remark about Labour members. The Prime Minister added that he hoped the decision of the Howe would be the forerunner of good and valuable work in the future for all sections of the communitv. The House rose at 12.30 a.m. to resume on Thursday.

END OF THE DEBATE, LABOUR MEMBERS SPEAK. EXPLAINING THEIR VOTES ATTITUDE OF INDEPENDENTS. The debate on the no-confidence motion was resumed in the House of Representatives this afternoon by Mr. A. E. Glover (Auckland Central). Referring to the Labour members. Mr. Glover said he bowed to no man in his allegiance to the working men and in his endeavour to elevate the masses to a greater and a nobler and a higher plane. He believed that in the immediate future the workers of the Dominion would prove an important factor in the constitution of the Legislature, and while he could not claim the high degree of intellectuality or the wealth" the possession of either of which was said to be sufficient qualification for a politician, he believed he possessed the indomitable perseverance and the untiring energy which would commend him to the masses of the people. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Glover commended the proposal contained ian the Governor's Speech to establish bureaux of justice. It was the duty of the State to prevent rather than to promote crime, and he considered that in addition to engaging Crown prosecutors the State should provide Crown defenders for the assistance of thos?* people who were unable to pay legal fees. Continuing, Mr. Glover urged the rapid development of the lands traversed by the proposed East Coast railway. From his own observation of it he believed the country was among the most fertile districts in the Dominion. It had been said that the motor car had been a dominant factor in the last election, but he had had the use of only one car in his constituency. Mr. Glover said he was convinced that whatever might be its immediate destiny, the Liberal patty would rise again to perform even nobler works than it had achieved in the past, ensuring brightness, happiness, and contentment to the people of the Dominion. (Hear, hear.)

An Independent Member. Mr. T. W. Rhodes (Thames) said that he in any event would be largely an Independent." He voluntarily pledged himself on the platform to vote for the Ward Government. He was also pledged to support the freehold against anything else. He was one who had always tried to keep his pledgesT whether publicly or privately made, and it would be his aim to make his word his bond. (Hear, hear.}" He recognised that a man must almost inevitably ally himself sooner or later with one side or "the other, and he would probably do so himself when he was in a better position to judge the merits and demerits of the two parties. He was already better able to judge of those matters than when he first came into the House. (Ministerial hear, hears.) He stood for principles asd for measures, not for men, and would support good measures wherever they came from.

Mr. Payne's " Courage." Mr. Rhodes said he admired the courage with which Mr. Payne had determined to be guided by his own convictions. He believed that Mr. Payne had acted in an entirely conscientious manner, and had done what had seemed to him to be right. (Mr. Payne: Hear, hear.) Referring to the Opposition, Mr. Rhodes said that the only policy it had announced was with regard" to the* land, and in that connection he admitted that the Reform party's platform appealed to him, but after all the optional system, which was the policy of the Government, was the fairest of all. It seemed to him that the Opposition strove to be all things to all men, while the Government had a record of legislation-on progressive lines. Speech by Mr. Veitch. Mr. W. A. Teitch, the new Labour member for Wanganui, spoke during the afternoon. He said that for the last 15 years he had been a prominent man in trades union work. He imagined that when he cams into Parliament he would require a great deal more polish and refinement than was possessed by a trades unionist. He had not, however, been seriously impressed in that direction. Continuing,. Mr. Teitch said he had been very favourably impressed with the matter contained in the Governor's Speech. There were several proposals that did not meet with his approval, but, speaking generally, he would say that if the matter was an insult to the intelligence of Parliament, then it was a meet progressive insult, and ho hoped Parliament would bo insulted in that way very often. He said the Labour i party did not recognise either of the existing parties. They aimed at tho greatest success they could obtain in bringing about the reforms that tho party stood for. After that, they were not at all particular as to which, party they would support. The Workers United. Mr. Veitch denied that the workers wero at present seriously divided amongst themselves. There was never a time in the history of the country when the workers were more united than at present. Just how they would combine was a matter not yet decided upon. Some thought that they should fight industrially outside Parliament, others for the purpose of defending themselves inside Parliament. For his part, ho saw no reason why both sections should not work eide by side. If the workers had such a combination, the necessity to fight very hard in Parliament or out. of it would have been disposed of.

Legislation lor the Workers. ' Mr. Yeitth said that the workers of New Zealand had benefited very greatly by the legislation passed under the present Government', but he claimed that many of those measures had been suggested by" the workers themselves. If the worker was capable of conceiving ideas for beneficent legislation, and giving them to the Government, then ho was capable of taking a place in Parliament himself. (Hear, hear.) . He hoped that when the Labour members were called upon to render an account of themselves to their constituents, whether in three months or three years, they would be able to show a record of having conducted themselves in such a manner that both sides of the House would be prepared to agree that they had done their beet, and had acted in a, reasonable manner. It was absurd to say that the workers were unreasonable men. (Hear hear.) Discussing the public service, Mr. Veiteh suggested that a Royal Commission, or some other tribunal, should lie appointed to investigate the causes of the discontent and of tho dissatisfaction that existed. Defects of Arbitration Court. The woikeis, he continued, were now deserting the Arbitration Court. Arbitration was a perfectly sound principle, but the Court was not so constituted as to deal with present evils. It had successfully abolished sweating, but the evil of to-day was monopoly, and the employer and the employee ought to be righting" it side by side. If it could be proved that the cost of living was beir.jr unduly raised by any monopoly, the Arbitration Court should be able, not only to go into the question of the condition of the worker?, but also to examine employers as to the I operation of the monopoly. It Mas necessary that the Court should have power to go into the whole question. No Political Past. Mr. J. Robertson (Otaki) said one'conclusion to which he had been led by the

debate was that he and other new members were fortunate in having no political past that could bo raked up against them. One party asked to be returned to power bocause of what it had done in the past, and the other party asked to be returned to power because of what it had not done in the past. Ha hoped that the influence of the Labour part}' would be to bring politics back once more to questions of principle, and that the great political rights of the future would be along particularly defined lines of principle rather than on lines of party or persons. Mr. Robertson was proceeding to discuss the anouncement by the Prime Minister of his intention to resign, when he was interrupted by the adjournment. When the House resumed this evening the galleries were crowded, and there was an atmosphere of jest rained excitement over the House, due to the general opinion that members were at last to divide. Every member was in his place.

Another Pledge Broken. Mr. Robertson, continuing his speech, said he had never given any pledge to nor endeavoured to secure the votes of those who were merely opposed to the Government. Whatever pledges he gave to his constituents were given for the first time on August 20, over three months before tho election, and when the matter of one's pledges in a division such as this could not have had any power on the candidates's chances. He took up the attitude at that time—because those responsible for his nomination had a grievance against the Administrationthat he would assist to turn the Ward Administration out of office. He also took care to state that he was just as strongly opposed to the party led by Mr. Massey. "I now find myself in this position," said Mr. Robertson: " The Administration has given an undertaking to this House that it is going to resign. I take it that the amendment now before this House thus becomes an amendment that will have the effect not of turning the Ward Administration out of those benches—because it is going out in any casebut it is really a resolution to put Mr. Massey into power. {Ministerialists: Hear, hear.) I would never give a pledge to assist Mr. Massey or his party into power. When the time comes that*that party can come into this House with a mandate from the people of the country I would be the last to grudge them their' seats on the Treasury benches." {Hear, hear).

The Letter find the Spirit of the Pledge. Mr. Robertson continued that the letter of bis pledge required him to support a vet* of no-confidence in the Ward Administration. Either he must keep to the letter of his pledge and break the spirit of it or he must act in accordance- with the spirit and break the letter. When the issue almost depended on the votes of one or two members the attitude of every member, and particularly a member placet! as he was. was a matter for very serious consideration. Members might havo seen that meetings had been held with the object of releasing him from bis pledges, but ho did not think that any meeting could release him from a pledge. He had thought the matter out, and had arrived at the decision which he had adopted simply through taking various questions into account. As he had stated right through he was opposed to the Ward Administration, also he was oposed to the policy of the Opposition party. Since they were to get rid of the Ward Administration he did not see why he should give a new lease of life to the Opposition party and assist it to get into power. Further than this, the position of parties in the House at the present time did not correctly represent the expressed views of the electors. The member for one constituency could not he present through illness, "and, in addition to that, a majority of the votes cast at the election was given for the Liberal party, and not for the Opposition. He felt sure that it was best that a majority of the people should rule in tho country, and that a party supported only by a minority should not occupy the Ministerial benches. He knew —and* it was an unfortunate thing in the public life of this country that it was so —that whatever he elected to do in ; this division there would be the same vile | innuendo and slanders. This was part of what he would have to face, and it was unfortunate that the great mass of tho people could understand more of tho mero letter of a pledge than of what was implied in the whole pledge or of the spirit underlying the words used. He believed that as in the course of a few months the party in power realised the pass to which it had brought itself, how they had failed to maintain the principles for j which they were supposed to stand, and j when they came to understand that the i people required a lead. politics in this country would be revivified, and it would ; find itself once more upon the path of ' real progress and of, democratic reform. (Applause from Government members.) Mr. Atmore Breaks Silence. Mr. H. Atmore (Nelson), who styles himself an Independent Liberal, rose to speak at eight o'clock. He explained that he was absolutely unpledged to either party, and went on to condemn in unmeasured terms the system of spoils to the victors that had grown up in New Zealand, and to indict the Government for certain errors of administration. As to their legislation, he approved of it, except in the case of ono or two acts. As an instance he cited the payment of £4000 to the Chief Justice for work outside his department. The Government gave this large sum, and yet they gave an increase of only 2-|d a day to the railway men. No truly Radical Government would have given the Chief Justice that £4000, and that was not all the transaction, for in addition they had given £1750 to Mr. Justice Button, of Auckland. In regard to compulsory training tho Government had his hearty sympathy, and he supported that principle, and disagreed with the member for Christchurch Norft (Mr. Isitt) and the member for Otaki (Mr. Robertson). He spoke in favour of the freehold. He would like to see that every man in the country had a little freehold. (Hear, hear.) Speaking of native lands, Mr. Atmore said that this question introduced a disquieting feature in the Opposition policy. There wa3 about £13,000,000 worth of land comprised in estates of a capital value of £25.000 and over, and the owners of that land were largely the party behind Mr. Massey. Tho value of the native lands was not more than one-fifth or- one-sixth of those estates, and he desired to address to the Opposition a direct question. Was that party as a whole prepared to take up the Government policy or something similar, and simultaneously with the acquisition of those native lands not required for the Maoris apply such a breaking up process to the big estates ? Mr. Massey: Treat them both alike. (Ministerial laughter.) Mr. Atmore: Are they prepared to do the same tor their own party as for the natives? He continued that the bulk of the land fit for cutting up was not in the hands of the Maoris, but in the hands of .New Zealanders, who largely professed allegiance to Sir Joseph Ward

A New Party Wanted. Mr. Atmore said in his opinion neither party was particularly satisfactory, and he looked forward to the time when a new party would be evolved from the present chaos. It was a most damning indictment of the party system if the best brains in larhament could not drop their miserable party feelings and solve the problems which really counted. Tho real question was, How could a man living in a rational manner derive most happiness ? Still an Independent. .Mr. Atmore said that he declared himself an Independent Liberal candidate, and he was an Independent Liberal member. He had given no pledge to either party, and because lie had declared that he would not stand for party he had received the biggest majority ever recorded in Nelson. ' The Best Brains Needed. Continuing, Mr. Atmore said there was too much Cabinet control and too little Parliamentary control. (Opposition hear, hears.) He did not think much Radical legislation would come from the present Opposition. (.Ministerial hear, hears.) The : Ministry that woidd command confidence could not be drawn altogether from one side of the House or the other. He did not suggest that there should be a coalition, but the best brains should be in a position to tackle the questions that wanted tackling in the interests of the Do-. . - - . . ... r "

minion, and everything that stood in the way of that consummation must be put aside as among the things that did not count. The Labour question was bound up with the cost of living, and it could not be solved by the inflamatory talk of the agitators. Their occupation would be gone if Parliament earnestly went down to the roots of the question. The Governor's Speech might have been brought down the day after the fair, but it was a truly Radical programme. (Hear, hear from Ministerialists.) It could not be carried out in a fortnight, as the member for Wellington South had said, and some of its proposals would impose such burdens on the fit for the benefit of the unfit that tho fit also would break down.

The Party System. Continuing, the member for Nelson said Tie had listened to the debate with great interest, and had heard both sides of the question. Ho "was sorry it had been treated entirely as a party question, and realities had been obscured by party feeling. Whether the future would bring forth a construction of a Younger Now Zealand party, time alone would show, but the people were getting tired of party wrangle, and ho looked on the debate as largely an indictment of the party system rather than as, attempt to find out whether the country last December had intended to serve a writ of ejectment on the Ministry. In conclusion, Mr. Atmore said there was hardly a paper in New Zealand but had been holding the House up to ridicule, because it met to decide & definite question and then, apparently, straight away forgot all about it. Mr. Atmore once again demanded a plain statement from the Opposition as to how it would deal with large estates. There was a feeling throughout the Dominion, he said, that the Opposition, or a majority of them, were the lineal . descendants of the old squatter party. (Opposition "Noes.') If the Reform party won tins division the first thing it would have to do would bo to bring down a truly comprehensive Radical programme. "If you do not," said Mr. Atmore, "you will be very quickly put out, because the people are going'to march on, and if you get in the way you are going to get hurt." (Applause from "all sides of the House.) The Pinal Words. Mi-. F. M. B. Fisher (Wellington Central) followed, and vigorously attacked the Government. Mr. J. A. Hanan (Invercargill) was the next speaker The Hon. D. Bucldo (Minister for Internal Affairs) commenced his speech at 11.35 p.m., and concluded the debate. A NEW PARTY LEADER. SIR ARTHUR GUINNESS. [bt telegraph— correspondent.] Wellington-, Tuesday. The latest idea is that after Sir Joseph! Ward resigns, Sir Arthur Guinness will resign the Speakership, and be the leader of the party. Subsequent events will be exceedingly interesting. The opinion is growing that there must bo a dissolution, and another election before the year is out.