THE NO-CONFEDENCE DEBATE.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLIX, Issue 14924, 23 February 1912, Page 8

THE NO-CONFEDENCE DEBATE.

LABOUR MEN SPEAK Mil. PAYNE SURRENDERS. MR. HINDMARSH'S CANDOUR OPPOSITION PRESSING FOR DIVISION, GOVERNMENT GAINING TIME [BT TKLEGRAPH.—SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT.^ Wellington-, Thursday. The debate on the no-confidence motion proposed by the Leader of tho Opposition was resumed in the House of Representatives this afternoon by another Ministerialist, Mr. T. K. Sidey, the member for Dunedin South. When Mr. Sidey resumed his seat there was a pause, Government support apparently expecting that one of Mr. Messey's party would reply to the two Government members, who had spoken since the last speech from the Opposition benches, but the Reform party lias no intention of prolonging the debate, and its members chorussed, "Divide! Divide!" until Mr. Macdonald (Bay of Plenty), the junior Government Whip, rose to carry on the debate. Mr. Sidey in Defence. Mr. Sidey, who resumed the debate at four p.m., said the significance of the general election required to be examined with cave- He welcomed all that had been said in the Governor's Speech, though some of the proposals which it advanced might be discovered to be impracticable. It was unfair to say that this was .v belated attempt to gain support. The verdict of the people was not against the legislation of the Government, nor against the increase of indebtedness. Tho country was better able to bear its debt to-day than it was was to bear the debt of 20 years ago at that time. Instead of being responsible for tho increased tost of living the Government had done a great deal to assist tho poorer section of the community to meet it. The trend throughout the whole of the Liberal administration had been to remit indirect taxation and impose tho burden on direct taxation. Considering all that had been done it was remarkable that no more taxation had been imposed. Much useful work had been accomplished by the union of Liberal and Labour forces. Who Has the Majority ? There were cries of " Divide " from the Opposition side when Mr. Sidey sat down, but Mr. W. D. S. Macdonald (Bay of Plenty) rose to eulogise the legislation of past years, and the legislative programme of the Governor's Speech. As soon as Mr. Macdonald began to talk of the state of parties in the House the Opposition dries of "Divide-," "Divide," were renewed. Mr. Macdonald said the Liberals had as strong a party in this House as the Conservatives. (Cries of "Divide." "Divide.") If the Conservative party got a majority it would be from the Independents, and ho could not conceive of a Liberal casting a vote with the Conservatives, who had opposed every progressive measure. During the election campaign they did not criticise tho Government's legislation, but they attacked one man, the Leader of the party, in a most malignant manner. ("Hear, hear;" "No, no;" applause and uproar.)

The Speaker appealed to the House to give Mr. Macdonald a hearing.

Mr. Macdonald added that in spite of tho uproar of tho Conservative party, what he had stated was the absolute truth. He declared that tho Liberal party was loyal to its chief, and Sir Joseph Ward was loyal to his party. He was not going to give way until it had been shown that he was opposed by a majority of the House. Opposition Members : Divide ! Prove it! Mr. Macdonld said that like other members lie was quite, prepared to see a vote of the House taken before they threw up the sponge to the Conservative party. The Opposition had laid many charges, but had substantiated nothing. It relied on innuendo and misrepresentation. It had not cited one definite case of extravagant expenditure by the Government. Opposition Members : The Hutt roads. Settlement of the Land. Mr. Macdonald continued that although the Opposition was always calling out for the settlement of native lands, it did not demand the settlement of areas held bybig Tory landowners. He denied that millions of acres of land were lying idle. This cry was raised by the Reform party in order to shield its Tory friends, who held milions of acres practically idle. Tho land held by the Government available for settlement aggregated only 3,800,000 acres. This included land fit for closer settlement and pastoral land. Tho Leader of tho Opposition had stated in Christchurch that tho King Country was being rapidly opened up and settled. This was tho sort of thing that the Opposition said when it was stating tho facts of the case, and not misrepresenting for electioneering purposes. Mr. Macdonald declared that the very people who complained-that the Government did not provide settlers with means of access to their holdings had sent representatives to Parliament to support the Conservative party in its anti-borrow-ing policy. Mr. Macdonald was applauded when his speech was interrupted by the dinner adjournment. " Put "the" uovernment Out." The galleries were again filled when Mr. Macdonld resumed in the evening. He said the platform of the Opposition during tho election "Put the Government out of office." Apart from the alleged sins of the Leader of the Liberal party, they relied greatly upon allegations that the Government had been guilty of extravagant borrowing. These statements had been persisted in, though those making them knew that some of the North Island county councils did not get the tenth part of tho money for which they asked. People who understood the position knew that unless the Leader of the Opposition and his party were like Eastern magicians they could not cany out the promises which they had made to the people without borrowing. Sixty per cent, of the money borrowed by the present Administration Aas paying interest. The Opposition had gone round the country saying that the Government was heaping up an enormous debt, and increasing the burdens that bore upon tho workers.

Mr. Laurenson: Hear, hear. their game tho whole time.

That's

" The Strength of Labour."

Mr. Macdonald said no man could deny that safe investments could not be found in New Zealand to-day, but some men who had accumulated 'wealth here took their money away because they were- afraid -of Labour, which was coins to assert itself

and get its just rights. Peoplo in every electorate made mis-statements about the Leader of the Government, and had imputed all sorts of robbery to tho Administration. > Mr. Macdonld. as lie continued, was interrupted bv Opposition interjections of , "Divide." " " Yes, we will take a division, he said. To this the Opposition members responded with a chorus of "Hear, bear's." MR. PAYNE'S PLEDGE. TO BE CHEERFULLY BROKEN. A"' MATTER OF EXPEDIENCY. The first of the Labour members to take a part in the debate was Mr. .). Payne (Grey Lynn), who began by saying that he had not realised when ho promulgated his famous scheme 45 during the Grey Lynn election that within such a short time ho was going to see a portion of it realised. The main features of the Governor's Speech wore very much on the lines of his scheme. Both included the nationalisation of industries, the acquirement of big estates .on a debenture issue, and the relief of the aged and sick. The Governor's Speech was not a death-bed confession of the late Liberal party, but was rather the policy which had been brought forward at the birth of a new party, the combined forces of Labour and Liberalism. (Government members; Hear, hear.) Continuing, Mr. Payne said his position as a Labour representative was very clear. He must review the position strictly as it affected the interests of the workers whom he. represented. So far as the workers were concerned the Liberal party and the Tory party were alike, in tho respect that their interests, strictly speaking, were not tho interests of Labour. Therefore, he had to decide what was the best bargain ho could make for Labour under the present conditions. An extremely progressive Radical policy had been brought down by the party in power. The party not in power had had an opportunity to discuss that policy, so as to afford him an opportunity of learning whether it was prepared to bring down similar Radical measures, but so far it had not indicated its attitude, He had heard the Speech condemned as being an insult to the intelligence of the House, but he had not heard any reason for that opinion. He was now awaiting with interest an honest opinion by a member of the Opposition upon the humanitarian measures dealt with in the Governor's Speech. No Respecter of Pledges. Members of tho Reform party might try to persuade him that he had no right to review the position, since no longer ago than Friday week he had given his word to Mr. Massey that he would vote against the Ward Government on a no-confidence motion. (Mr. Massey: Hear, hear.) But if he deemed it expedient to break a pledge for the benefit of tho people he represented, lie would break his pledge without compunction. He had been , told that by doing so he would commit political suicide, but he preferred that to committing Labour-interest murder. (Government members: Hear, hear.) How the Pledges Were Made. Having set forth his convictions on the question of keeping pledges, Mr. Payne said he now felt at liberty to state a few facts concerning those pledges. Long before the first ballot, Mr. Murray, Opposition candidate for Grey Lynn, came to him and said: " Mr. Payne, if either of us get into the second ballot I am prepared to help you if you are prepared to help me." He replied: "That seems a. fair proposal, and I accept it." If he had broken his pledge- it was not a. - pledge given because ho wanted the Opposition vote. Documents, said the member for Grey Lynn, had been published i" reference to a meeting in Mr. Garland's office in Auckland, which showed that in answer to an inquiry he had said that he would vote against the Ward Government on a noconfidence motion on its land policy. Later, he had an interview with Mr. Massey, and told him that he would vote against the Ward Government. About an Offer of Money. Mr. Massey: Would you repeat all that you told me? Mr. Payne: On what occasion, Mr. Massey? Mr." Massey: Last Friday week, when you told me about the offer of money. Mr. Payne said at the time when he made his pledgo he, in common with many people in tho North, believed that certain inconsistencies were going on—certain extravagances. He did not say that these stories had been spread by the members who sat on the Opposition benches, but thay were certainly not circulated by friends of the Liberal party. Since he had been in Wellington ho had had an opportunity of hearing fully the various matters and Innuendoes discussed, and ho had had a most remarkable experience. One of the stories in circulation was that he had been bought by the Ward party for £1000. It was plain that there were innuendoes still in circulation, because this had been told him by the Leader of tho Opposition himself. Government Members: Oh! Oh, and laughter. Mr. Massey: Hear! hear! I showed you a letter I had received, and you said that you had been offered money. Mr. Laurenson: By jove, that, is the hottest thing I ever heard in my life. Hon. T. Mackenzie: Do I understand the Leador of tho Opposition to say that' that hon. gentleman was offered £1000 by the Government for lus vote? Mr. Massey : That was nob what I said. Mr. Mackenzie: I accept the hon. gentleman's, statement. Not Impressed by Argument. Mr. Payne said the statements by tho i Opposition that the Government party could not possibly carry out the matters dealt with in the Governor's Speech would have no effect upon him. Any attempt to influence him by specious arguments would be futile. He stood for measures, and not for. men, and, having been promised measures, ho believed that from his position in the Labour section ho would be able to forco those measures, and so servo the interests of the Labour people, whom ho represented. He did not suggest that any member of the House was responsible for rumours that were current at election time. He was glad that he had heard Sir Joseph Ward's repudiation of those rumours and base slanders, and ho had heard nothing from tho Opposition to the effect that the Primo Minister's denials were incorrect, nor had he heard a single fact that would substantiate the charges of reckless and plunging finance, with which the Government was indicted by the Opposition. Never in all his experience bad ho heard such dish-water arguments as those -advanced by tho Tory party to substantiate the statements circulated by Tory partisans during the lust few months. Pledge or No Pledge. After some references to financial topics Mr. Payne returned to the subject of his political attitude. He said he had not hoard anything he could pass on to the electors of Grey Lynn to justify him In voting out the Liberal party cm a noconfidence motion. (Ministerial applause.) In Grey Lynn at the first Lai- ! lot, more than 5000 electors voted for the Liberal and Labour parties, out of a total a little short of 7000, and only JSOO voted for Conservative interests. A number of the latter had informed him that they voted for him at the second ballot, and i that if they thought he had a chance they would have voted for him at the first ballot. He had now heard both leaders in the House, and bearing in mind the electors of Grey Lynn he did not propose to fly in tho face of those electors. He. would put himself in a position he could not maintain if he voted against the Liberal party that had done so much for the workers. "Pledge or no pledge." said Mr. Payno, " I will not vole against the Liberal party on a no-confidence motion." Ho admitted that the Liberal

party was not perfect, but there would be a combination of Liberal, Radical, and Labour interests, and with such a combination Labour could hope to obtain a majority in the House. Keep the Liberals in Power. The lato elections, said Mr. Payne, would be a salutary lesson to tho party. (Ministerial applause.) The < workers would bo ready to throw their weight with tho Conservative interests if need be to firing about a reconstruction of a Government which showed a tendency to become autocratic when it should be democratic. The election would also be a lesson to the workers, and whilst it might be expedient for them to oust an autocratic democrat, they had not strengthened the capitalistic and Conservative interests. The so-called Reform party would be known in future by its true title of tho Tory party. Tho position he 'ook up was v>ne of strength, for the Labour party. If they kept tho Liberals in power they could look with reason to making them keep the pledges given In tho Governor's Speech. If the Liberal party retained office, as he believed it would, he as one of the Labour members would be in a position to compel »t to pass Labour measures for the benefit of the people he represented. Ho was at liberty to vote against them on a future no-confidence motion, if Labour interests were not conserved. The coming division would show that the votes of Liberal, Radical, and Labour parties were against capitalistic interests, and in tho interests of general good.