THE POLICE COMMISSION.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLII, Issue 12931, 29 July 1905, Page 3

THE POLICE COMMISSION.

; SITTING IN" AUCKLAND, INTERESTING EVIDENCE TAKEN. INSPECTOR CULLEN EX- . AMINED. ' ; The Police Commission, consisting of Messrs. H. V. Bishop, S.M., and J. W. Poynton, appointed to inquire into the recent police scandals .in Dunedin, and'' the scope of whose inquiry was afterwards extended to the various districts in the colony, commenced its sittings at the Supreme Court Buildings yesterday morning. Among those present were: The Commissioner of Police (Mr. ' Dinnie), Inspector Cullen, SubInspector Black, Ex-Inspector Pardey, of Dunedin, and a number of detectives, constables, and ox-constables, who manifested a great interest' in the proceedings. INSPECTOR CULLEN'S EVIDENCE. John Culleii, inspector of police, stationed in Auckland, s said that he joined the force 29 years ago. After being transferred about from pillar to post as a sergeant, , he was appointed to the rank of sub-inspector at Wanganui, where he remained for.some time. . Oil being promoted to ' the rank of inspector he was appointed to take charge of the Auckland district. ■ That was seven years ago."

, The Chairman: How many men have you under you? . Witness: Fifty-two altogether. •In response to further questions which were put by the Commissioners, the inspector said that he knew nothing : about, the Dunedin police scandal beyond what he had read in the papers. He knew nothing personally about the appointment of McDonald and Moses, who were sentenced in connection with the recent, scandals. Altogether, he had charge of 64 police stations, and detailed his duties, which, he said, oonsisted mostly of office and inspection work. Generally it took him about 12 hours a day to get through. Tho Chairman: What is the latest hour, then, that you see the members of the police force? The Inspector: Sometimes ifli to midnight. How about the sub-inspector? Could he assist you more than ho does?— could see more of the suburban stations than ho does, and he could attend to all the correspondence which refers to purely local matters. Well, now, give us an outline of the duties of the sub-inspector. has to take charge of 13 stations! attend to Court work, correspondence, and reports from the various stations.

, Inspector Cullen, continuing, said that while the sub-inspector was at the Court correspondence accumulated, which would bo better attended to if someone were there to sissist him. The sub-inspector's position in Auckland was a very arduous one, as the work here was heavier than anywhere else. H'3 would suggest that a sergeant should be employed under the sub-inspector to assist him. If there was a station sergeant he could attend to all correspondence that came in. Apart from police work, they had a lot of other Government Departmental work, which they had really, no right to do. For instance, they had to inspect machinery under the instructions of the inspector of machinery, and to attend to certain other business on account of the Education and other Departments. Mr. Bishop: How many beats have you here?

Mr. Cullen: Seven in Newton and' 11 in tho city. Tho city beatsare they your own arranging?— And do you consider that they are sufficiently capable of covering the work? Yes. How long does it take a man to get round them?— Some beats would take over an hour, while others would take only 20 minutes. Do the sergeants have proper supervision over the men in Auckland?— Yes. Do they pay surprise visits?— : Frequently?— . 5 The inspector then went on to describe ' J;h<y-,varioii3 boats; how long it took to get' ;pVerHhem, and to detail what were his own duties and those of the sub-inspector; . Mr. Bishop: You have, of course, read a statemoilfc made by McDonald, which was to the effect that he believed from hearsay that Auckland was the worst of the whole lot as regards thefts among members of the police force? >''■ !' Witness: Yes. -

What have you to say?—-I do not believe that anything of the kind has been going on. If . there had, something would have come to my ; ears..,l do not think that there is anything in it.Continuing, the inspector said that regarding the morale of the members of the local- force this was very satisfactory. He had in several instances reported men for misconduct to the Commissioner,, and these, he believed, had been dispensed with. Sometimes they found men shirking and loafing, and in some cases men were sadly lacking as regards education. ' The Chairman: Where do you find these? ' Witness: They belong generally to the returned trooper element.

: Inspector Cullen, continuing, said that whenever his decisions were disputed and applications were made to refer the matter to the Commissioner, ho invariably did so. Regarding the appointments of sub-in-speetors, he said that he thought it would bo better if two inspectors were appointed in each district in plaoo of a sub-inspector and inspector, as at present. _ When it came to his knowledge, while acting in the capacity of 'junior sergeant in Dunedin, that ' a senior sergeant was not doing his duty ■ho did not report him, as he (witness) was a stranger in the place, and the sergeants there could always get up such a defence among their friends that no one would oonvict them. Witness knew that his word would bo disbelieved. The condition of things obtaining here, however, was better. They had very efficient sergeants in Auditland ; in fact, more so than in the Southern cities, with the exception of Wellington. A constable could not loaf hero without tho •sergeant knowing, and when he did it was always reported/to witnaes. ; AUCKLAND INSUFFICIENTLY. POLICED. . Mr. Poynton: Do you find _ that the strength of the force here is sufficient? Mr. Cullen: No. How many more men do you want?— Fully fifteen to supervise the city thoroughly- ■ / . .In Dunedin, four or five men congregated together,' and robbed some houses, and so forth. Is that possible under the conditions here?—No;_ it would be impossible if the sergeants did their duty thoroughly. Now, with reference to probation, do you think that six months' probation is sufficient?No, Ido not. I consider that twelve months' probation would be better, for sometimes oiio is mistaken in a man. Now, about the system of _ inquiry with refercnco to enrolment. It is clear from what has transpired in Dunedin, that the system there is very deficient. One man was engaged who had been convicted twice for theft before.Well, I can only speak as regards my own district. So far as wo can wo exhaust every system of inquiry that there is. A man's career is always referred to the detective staff as well as to the uniform staff. BETTER PAY, BETTER MEN. _ Have you anything which you would like to add?— Yes. I think there is a general feeling throughout the service that the pay is not sufficient. It never goes over 9s per day for the highest grade constable, and 1 think that is too low. The provident fund, which has been established, means a. reduction of 6d per day. Mr. Poynton: But they will get that back. Mr.. Cullen: I doubt it. You will never get a proper class of men unless you pay them better.. _ But there are a large number of applications coming in for enrolment?— Yes; but if you want better men, ydu must pay better wages. A married . constable upon 7s a day and with rent to pay baa a pretty hard. time of it. RELATIONS WITH SUB-INSPECTOR. Now, with regard to you? relations with the sub-inspector, are you on cordial terms? Oh, yes; fairly cordial terms. -Of course you always find that there is a certain amount of friction between them. On account of different opinions, is that it?— It is human nature, I think. In reply to Mr. Dinnie, witness said that the impression prevailed that returned troopers were preferred to private citizens, which had had tho effect of somewhat discouraging the latter from sending in applications. During the past twelve months lie had reported fifteen men altogether, all of whom had been discharged. He did not see how they could take further precautions regarding the enrolment- of men than they [ did in Auckland.

SUB-INSPECTOR'S "WORK. Questioned by Sub-Inspector Black, Inspector Cullen said that the work allotted to Sub-Inspector Black was greater than that which should be allotted to one man, that was to do the work thoroughly. Taking Mr. Black's day upon an average he worked 14 hours. SUN-INSPECTOR BLACK'S EVIDENCE. Patrick Black, sub-inspector, stated that he joined t.he force in 1878. After serving for some years upon the streets in Dunedin lie was promoted to the anile of sergeant, and, after serving as such in various parts of the colony, he was ultimately appointed a sub-inspector. He was transferred to Auckland to act in that, capacity two years ago. Mr. Poynton: Do you think that the supervision here is good, as compared with that in Southern cities? .' Mr. Black: Yes, if not better. After Mr. Black had detailed how his time was occupied from nine in the morning until close upon midnight every Bight attending to correspondence,, and the work greater part of the time, Mr. Bishop remarked : So you are turning into a clerk more than a sub-inspector?" Mr. Black: Yes. Continuing, Sub-Inspector Black said that with reference to the supervision of the sergeants, he did as much as ho could. Not until within the last two or three weeks had lie visited the beats between midnight and four and five in the morning. 1 Through going round in this way he had not on these, occasions been able to go to bed at all. This practically meant that he had to go without sleep for 48 hours. It _ was too much for any man to do, and, _if it went on in regard to a private individual,, the Arbitration Act would soon bo called in. He considered that the staff of sergeants hero should be increased by two-— one to assist him and another for night duty. The present inducements for men. to join the force were not very great. If they placed a man on probation for twelve months, with the risk of being thrown out at any moment, it would prove an obstacle to getting good recruits. AN AUCKLAND CONSTABLE) . SUSPECTED. Continuing, witness said that upon one occasion there was a suspicion thrown upon one of the local constables of having broken into a boot shop and stolen some articles. In this instance the door of the boot shop was found open. When the shopkeeper turned over his stock in the morning lie discovered that a pair of slippers was missing. The shopkeeper reported to witness that ha suspected the constable. When the shopkeeper was asked to take out a search warrant, however, ho would not, so that the matter was left to witness _ and the sergeant, who took the responsibility of executing a search warrant themselves. They found nothing. Mr. Bishop: As the result of your experience, do you believe in the system_ of sub-inspectors— mean as regards establishing better efficiency? Mr. Black: Yes. • ' Mr. Bishop: Well, you are tho first subinspector I ever heard say it. HOW CHRISTCHURCH MEN GOT BEER. The sub-inspector, in reply to a question by Mr. Bishop, related the wajin which he observed McDonald of the constables convicted in Dunedin—and another constable get some beer in Christchurclh. This incident, said Mr. Black, led to the transfer of both McDonald to Dunedin and the other man elsewhere. The subinspector said that, in consequence of an anonymous letter which i was - received, be and the inspector, of police then stationed at Christchurcb decided to watch a certain hotel. Accordingly they did so. It was a dark night, 1 and while they were secreted in separate places they saw two constables approach the hotel, wait there until everyone was gone, and then reach up to the window and bring down some bottles of beer. The men passed him. As they did so he stepped out, stopped them and took the beer away. " After that," said the sub-inspector, "I had not much confidence in him (McDonald), for a man mean Plough to take beer as a gratuity is not muoh." ' The sub-inspector concluded : his evidence by saying that he thought it would be letter if men were transferred more frequently, say, once every five years, as he was convinced that once a man became; too wellknown in a place lie could not carry out his duties without fear or favour. "It's a queer man," said Mr. Black, ."who does not make a few friends." \ CHARGES TO BE MADE. Upon the Commission resuming Mr. Jas. Regan said that ho wished to prefer certain charges against the police, ' and, Vx'iug but a private citizen, he wished the Commission's direction. Mr. Bishop, in reply, said that Mr. Regan would .be allowed to' prefer his charges, but before he did so .ho would haVe to notify the police of what they. were, so as not to spring any surprises'upon them.: ' < -. Mr: Regan said that he did not wish .to take the police unawares. Ho would do as the Commissioners suggested. It was then- arranged that Mr. Regan should have an opportunity of substantiating his oharges against the police oh Monday morning, and of calling witnesses in' support.

STATEMENT BY SERGEANT HENDRY.

Sergeant Hendry, who joined the force in 1879, said that lie was now in charge of the Newton station. Complaints had been made about men gossiping on duty. On one occasion he found a man drunk on duty. Mr. Bishop: Have you ever heard of any rumours about dishonesty in the force in Auokland?—No, only in the one case. That' was the case referred to this morning, and in that I took extreme measures, with the result that I am absolutely certain there' was nothing in it. From your knowledge of Auckland, do you consider -that the force is as. strong as .it ought to be?—No; Ido not. There ought to be fully 10 more oonstables. For instance, . the worst portion of Auckland at present is seldom patrolled by a constable; it is because there is no constable to put on. How does that apply to the night duty beats?— The night-duty beats are kept full' at the expense of the day-duty beats. Have _ you anything further which you would like to say?— in regard to the sub-inspector's statement this morning as to shifting a man every five years. It would be punishment to a married man if that system were carried outa fine practically of £50, which is a very serious thing for a policcman, especially when the smallness of his pay is considered. He would have to shift his family. I consider that a man should not be shifted' unless it is in the interests of the publio service or for the sake of punishment, not otherwise. Commissioner Dinnie: I suppose that you ■ are aware _ that_ upon a population basis Auckland is policed better than any other city? Sergeant Hendry: No; I know nothing about that. OTHER EVIDENCE. • William Hector McKinnon, sergeant of police, stationed at Newton, said that he joined the force in 1881. So far as he knew, the assertions of McDonald as regards thieving amongst the force in Auckland were absolutely unfounded. Joseph Kelly, sergeant, stationed at Auckland, stated that he joined the force in 1371. He considered that the supervision in Auckland was better than it was in Christchurch, where ho had been. When he was patrolling the streets in Auckland the constables never knew when he was coming. Mr. Poynton: Do you know anything about thieving in Auckland? .Sergeant Kelly: No; Ido not. Ido not see how it could go on without the sergeants knowing. Mr. Bishop: Then the beats, as they are arranged in Auckland, could not be better? Sergeant Kelly: No; I do not think they could. What is the longest period that would elapse between the times that you saw a man between 12 at midnight and five in the morning?— longer than two hours. To Inspector Cullen: To make the supervision better they wanted more sergeants, so that they oould visit the men mors frequently. The next witness was Sergeant Hansen, who said that he joined' the police in 1831. He was for 21 years in Dunedin. He was then promoted to the rank of sergeant and transferred to Auckland, where he had been ever since. • Mr. Bishop: What is your opinion about the control here? Sergeant Hansen: That it is just as perfect as it can be. With reference to the charge which has been made by McDonald against the Auckland constables, what have you to say?— is a tissue of lies. Can you suggest any motive?— Yes; I can. They have been punished themselves and they want to punish the whole of the force. Have you any suggestions to make?— Yes, I have. I think that the pay is altogether insufficient. It might have been all right seven or eight years ago, but now, with the present rates of living, it is not enough. A labourer gets 8s per day, as compared with a constable's 7s. The sergeant, continuing, said that he .thought that when men were engaged they should be placed upon 12 months' probation, and under different ser- . scants, who could report upon them.

In reply to Inspector Cullon witness said that, the sergeants often reported to tbo inspector upon the various men. _ The inspector, therefore, was familiar with everything respecting them. Sergeant Carroll, in charge-of the Eden Terrace station, said that he had never heard of any allegations against, the local member's of the police force as regards theft, as alleged by McDonald. He believed that both sergeants and mea were worked too hard here altogether, and to relieve the pressure and to patrol the town properly more men and sergeants were required. Sergeant Dew said that after serving in various places in the colony he went to Dunedin. Ho applied for a transfer to Auckland on account of his wife's health. " I was very glad," said the sergeant, "to get away from Dunedin." ' Mr. Bishop: Why?

Sergeant Dew:' For certain 'reasons. Mr. Bishop Well, then, if you had certain reasons apart from private matters in connection with yourself and your wife, we must have them.

Sergeant Dew explained that with the beats, as they existed in Dunedin at that time, it was impossible for him to do the work with satisfaction to himself. The beats were too big altogether, both for the men and for the sergeants. When one of the constables reported the matter to the inspector he met with such a severe rebuff that witness never took the matter up himself. After he had once been admonished by Inspector O'Brien for not visiting the men upon his beat he decided to get a transfer upon tho first opportunity. Mr. Bishop: Those were your reasons, then, for applying for a transfer to Auckland?

Sergeant Dew: Yes; I never felt, safe in Dunedin. Ido in Auckland, for I can do my duty here, and I know that when I do that the inspector is satisfied with me. What would you suggest, then, should be done to prevent this sort of thing ever occurring in Dunedin again?— The beats first of all should be reduced by one-half, while the number of sergeants and men should be substantially increased. • j In reply to further questions, Sergeant Dew said that the beats in Auckland wore laid off in a very common-sense way. He also considered that the police were underpaid. "And yet," said the sergeant, "wo are supposed to consist of the best class of men." He considered that one reform would be the curtailment of pri"»to inquiries. In reply to Commissioner Dinnie, Sergeant Dew said that he believed that had three of the sergeants in Dunedin reported the fact that the beats were unworkable no notice whatever would have been taken by the inspector. Mr. Dinnie: Well, had you done so you might have been the means of stopping the recent scandal, which would have been'to your oredit-. Sergeant Dew: The tin workableness of the beats was brought under the notice of tho inspector by a constable, and I think that a constable's report has just as much right to be inquired into as a sergeant's. Sergeant Watt said that he had been stationed at. Neviton for the past six months. In order, to cover the beats properly they should lie reduced. Altogether, a sergeant on the Newton beats at night time had to walk 21 miles, and in order to do so vrtti ness had had to run on many occasions. ' Commissioner Dinnie pointed out that the sergeant had eight hours in which to cover the beat, and at the rate of throe miles an hour seven hours would suffice. .

Sergeant Sheehan, stationed at Waihi, said that when he arrived there some time ago he found that the condition of things was very lax. When he tried to improve matters he met with considerable opposition from the men. "In fact," declared-the sergeant, "they conspired to injure me." Continuing, he. said , that. ultimately the men j turned in his favour, and since then everything had gone well, so far as the members of the force were concerned. In conclusion, Sergeant Sheehan said that he considered the members of the force were underpaid. Apart from his own district, lis thought that the cities should be better policed, and in answer to Mr. Bishop said he thought a man should not be promoted to the rank of a sergeant after he was 4-5 years of age. , . At a-quarter to five the Commission adjournedl until ten o'clock this morning.