THE LICENCING BILL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLI, Issue 12662, 16 September 1904, Page 6

THE LICENCING BILL.

DISCUSSION IN THE HOUSE. A CONFERENCE AND ITS RESULTS. COMPROMISE ARRIVED AT. NO-LICENSE NO-LIQUOR QUESTION. THE CLAUSE STRUCK OUT. OTHER AMENDMENTS. [BY TELEGRAPH. SPECIAL CORRESPONTJENT.] Wellington', Thursday. The further consideration of the Licensing Bill in Committee was taken in the House of Representatives to-night. When the Bill was reached Mr. Millar, Chairman of Committees, was not present, and the Premier moved that Sir William Steward take the cliaii, which was agreed to. THE TORT CHALMERS POSITION. Consideration of the Bill was resumed at clause 8. which ran ''The result of every licensing poll shall have effect until superseded at a subsequent valid licensing poll." The Premier said it had been poirted out to him that this clause would affect the Port Chalmers poll, now before the Privy Council. He proposed to insert new clauses to the effect that clause 8 should not affect proceedings pending at the time of the Act; also, that if the litigation was not concluded at the time of next general election, then the poll should be taken in accordance with the decision of the Court. Mr. Harding: How could it be in accordance with the decision of the Court, when the litigation is not completed. Mr. McNab suggested that clause 8 should •be passed, and that the Government be asked to get the clauses carefully drafted to meet all the contingencies that might arise in connection with the Port Chalmers poll. The Premier: I'll agree to that. Mr. James Allen said there was only one way out of tlu difficulty, and that was to have a fresh poll in Port Chalmers as soon ! as the result of the litigation was made known. That should also be done in Bruce. Mr. Seddou said clause 8 was a necessary clause, and he had thought it would bo agreed to by the House unanimously. • Mr. McLachlan moved that Sir William Steward leave the chair, as Mr. Millar (Chairman of Committees) was now in the House. Mr. Millar explained that lie had been out of the House engaged on important business when the Bill was called on. He was also interested in this question, and he had, therefore, asked Sir William Steward to take the chair for a few minutes. He had no desire to ask any man to do his duty. He was quite prepared to do that himself. He had, however, been engaged in public matters when the Bill was called en. That was the reason why the present chairman was in the chair. Mr. McLachlan: Sir, I press my motion that vou do now leave the chair. (Laughter). * Mr. Major asked if this was being moved for the purpose of gagging the member for Dunedin. Mr. Seddon said Mr. McLachlan would be the last man to be discourteous to the Speaker or the chairman. He trusted the member for -Hshburton would •be satisfied with the explanation. Mr. McLachlan: Then, sir, I move that you do now leave the chair. (Laughter.) Mi. Millar said he had had no intention of taking part in any vote if a division were called. He would take the chair at once. Mi. McLachlan did not.press his motion, and it was declared lost on the voices. Mr. Bedford said he would vote against the clause, because it was not needed, At all events, the clause should be postponed until they had the other clauses referred to by the Premier. Mr. Jas, Allen asked if this Bill did not provide legislation regarding the disputed polls. Would the Premier bring in another Bill dealing .with the question of disputed polls, and pass it this session? The Premier said he had great confidence in the House. In " another place" he would do .his best. If he did not got it in one Bill he would get it in another. He thought they should take the first advantage of getting it through. They would then have two bows to their string. (Much laughter.) Mr. Jas. Allen: We prefer two strings to our bow. However, I'll take the Premier's assurance.

Mr. Massey said he was very glad indeed to have the Premier's assurance. He, however, pointed out that the Premier had made no mention of the Electoral Act. The matter should he dealt with in that Act. The difference was the deciding of these points by two judges of the Supreme Court, or by the magistrates. The people would hav» far more confidence in the Supreme Court, judges than they would have In the magistrates. Mr. Seddon said this could be dealt with when they came to the clauses. In some places, if they bad two judges, the Court might not sit for four months. Mr. Wilford said the Election Court of two judges was a specially constituted Court, and would very speedily come into operation. The expense of such a Court, however, was enormous. The costs lor one side alone would run into £200, and if the expenses of both sides had to be paid the amount would be out of all reason. Mr. Jas. Allen said he understood it the Premier did not put this Bill through with the clauses dealing with disputed polls in it, he would introduce anothei Bill. On that understanding he would not object to clause 8 going through. The clause was then amended as suggest--1 ed, and passed as follows: "The result of every valid licensing poll, whether taken before or after the passing of this Act, shall have effect until superseded at a subsequent valid licensing poll." NO-LICENSE NO-LIQUOR CLAUSE. The committee then proceeded to the consideration of clause 9, the no-license noliquor referendum. The Premier said the clause was the most important one in the Bill. He asked members to consider it dispassionately, and with an earnest desire to trust the people. It was a logical and necessary clause. To say that too many questions were being submitted to the people was an insult to the people oi New Zealand. Mr. Bedford : This clause is. The Piemiei : No ; it is a reflection to say the people of this colony could not vote intelligently on five questions. Mr. Buchanan : I have heard you say they could not vote on one question intelligently. The Premier: That is when they return you to Parliament. Discussing the clause further, the Premier said as scon as a Licensing Bill was introduced some people rushed the telegraph offices, and did their beet to swell the surplus. The- other day he paid a bill for £214 for telegrams. Mr. Massey: Was that for the Pahiaf ua election? The Premier said it was not. He ha<; to be courteous, and reply to the telegrams sent to him regarding "the Licensing Bill, and help to swell the surplus. He proceeded to read messages he had received regarding the Licensing Bill, one being a letter from a gentleman, who complained that clause 9 is already in force, a policeman having -vine to the writer's house, and asked him where he got a two-gallon keg of beer, which the policeman said he saw come to the house. After supper the Premier continued to defeud clause 9. His speech on the subject lasted over an hour. Be declared that the time would com-.- when the people oi Now Zealand would adopt clause 9. Mr. Fowlds told the Premier that ♦£ ho desired to save anything out of the wreck of the Bill he had better not get clause 9 embodied in it. He would rather have clause 9 of last year than a vote on the subject, because people would be unable to say when recording their votes on the main issue what the result would, be. Thousands

of people had petitioned for a referendum on the question of the totalisator, but the Premier did not grant that request. He was not prepared to trust the people in that matter.

Mr. A. L. D. Eraser said the prohibitionists themselves differed greatly in regard to clause 9. A Church of England clergyman in Gisborne, for inntaJica, supported "clause 9, so also did a leading lady prohibitionist. Others were opposed to it. Mr. Praser quoted Mr. Ngata, Mr. Northcroft, S.M., and Inspector Cullen, to show that nolicense in the King Country had been a failure, and would be a failure till there were licenses, or liquor was prevented from going into the King Country. They were all Mr. McLachlan: Who are they? Mr. Fraser: I was addressing the chair. Had I been referring to you, possibly I would have said "It." Mr. McLachlan asked if Mr. Fraser was not going beyond the bounds of courtesy. The Chairman expressed the hope that members would use moderate language. Mr. Wilford said he believed the publicans of New Zealand had been making the mistake of their lives in assuming that if they got clause 9 they would have a lease of the trade in perpetuity. He believed if clause 9 was passed the liquor trade in New Zealand would be dead once and for ever. Mr. Moss eaid nobody wanted to stop people in no-license districts from having ljquoi except the Premier and half-a-dozen, cranks. Mr. Kirkbride said he wae never a teetotaller, and never a prohibitionist; but he claimed that the people of a district should have the right to say whether there should be licenses in the district or not. If the people became disgusted with tho way the hotels were conducted, and said there was to bo no-license, that was no reason why he should' not have a bottle of wine in his house. A COMPROMISE. Clause 9 was then put, and was struck out on the voices, the result of a compromise, referred to elsewhere, and for the same reason, clause 10 was also struck out on the voices. The committee then proceeded to consider clause 11 regarding the effect of "nolicense." The Premier intimated that he had cer- • tain amendments to propose. Members seemed to be in somewhat of a fog about the effect of the amendments, and Mr. Massey suggested that consideration of the clause* should be postponed till the proposed amendments were printed. j Mr. Seddou suggested an amendment pro- i viding that notification of liquors having j been sent into a " no-license " district should I be given to the Collector of Customs, who i would be the judge of whether the person to whom the liquor was being sent was a proper person to receive it. Mr. Hcrdman said he understood that during the whole of this evening and part of this afternoon a conference was being held on the Bill by a section of those who supported the liquor interest, and a section of those who supported the prohibition interest. It was reported that an agreement had been arrived at, but those members who were not at the conference knew nothing about what had been agreed to. Indeed, those members of tho House who took up a. moderate position were left in ignorance as to what had transpired. The only people who knew what had been agreed' to were the Premier and those gentlemen who attended the conference.

Mr. Bedford urged that consideration of the clause should be postponed. He objected to the House being led by a conference to which a large number of members of the House were not invited. What right had the conference to ignore the' members who did not sit on the Government side of the House '! The conference was proposed by the Premier, who was beaten on the reduction clause. The Premier : Confine yourself to facts. Mr. Bedford: I said the conference was proposed by the Premier. The Premier: You are wrong. Mr. Jas. Allen also strongly objected to passing the amended clause "until it was; printed. The Premier suggested that the clause should be amended and passed, and, if necessary, he would agree to recommit it afterwards. Mr. Lewis: Oh, you'll forget all about it. (Laughter.) Mr. Seddon said the member for Courtney had no right to make such an insinuation. At seventeen minutes past twelve a.m. Mr. McLachlan rose and said: " Sir, I see that it's now past the witching hour of midnight—(laughter)and as it appears to me that this is a dead marine— (laughter) — now move to report progress and ask leave to sit again." This was lost by 46 to 28. Mr. Massey then rose to protest against the manner in which the business was being done. He felt sure that not a single member of the committee thoroughly understood what was proposed, (Several members: "Hear, hear.") This was not a position that the Parliament of this country should be placed in. A conference of half-a-dozen extremists on each side of the question had been held, and they had discussed the question. The great moderate party in the House and the country had not been consulted at all. He protested in being asked to legislate blindly. The Premier had shown that he did not understand his own clause. Mi. fiaume deprecated what he termed the members of the Opposition goading the Premier. Mr. Herdmaa: Nonsense. Mr. Duthie: Childish. Mr. Baume: That's what I have always said about the Opposition members' criticism, it's childish. Mr. Laurenson said a number of members representing both sides of the question met together, and discussed matters. They got the Premier to agree to drop clauses 9 and 10, and to compromise on clause 11. The Premier said he would agree to re* commit the clause unconditionally. Mr. Allen: But the Premier" is not the House ; a majority of the House might not agree to recommit. Mr. Seddon said if members refused to agree to his proposal to recommit the Bill he would refuse to go on with it. Ho subsequently agreed, however, to strike oat sub-clauses B and E, of clause 11. and let the clause pass in that shape, and have the amendment with regard to notification to th« Collector of Customs printed, and get tho Bill recommitted at a future stage. The Premier said. I have been told to-night that I agreed to drop clauses nine and ten. What I agreed to was to take the decision of the House on the voices*. I knew I should be beaten on clauses nine and ten. At half-past one Mr. Massey suggested to the Premier that he should report progress. [Left Sitting.]

CONFERENCE BETWEEN THE PARTIES. GIVE-AND-TAKE POLICY., CLAUSES 9 AND 10 KNOCKED OUT. A compromise on the Licensing Bill was effected to-night between representatives of the no-license members of the House and some members who were to support the trade in the matter. The conference was confined to members of the Government party, the Premier having round him the extremists of his party on both sides of the liquor question, those present being: Messrs. Powlds, Ell, McNab, Buddo, Laurenson, and Tanner, and Messrs. Millar, Ividd, Rutherford. R. McKtnzie, and Lawry. It was intended to hold the conference at half-past live, but the Premier was unable to attend at that hour, and the meeting was postponed till a quarter-past seven. The settlement was not arrived at when the House took up consideration of the Licensing Bill at eight o'clock, and the parties again conferred at the supper adjournment. The result ot the conference was that the Premier and the other supporters of the Bill present agreed to let clauses 9 and 10 be struck out without calling foi a division, and also to let a portion of clause 11 go, retaining, however, so much of it as will provide that it will be illegal to solicit aiders for liquor within a. no-license district, but orders may be received from a no-license district on condition that the brewer or merchant who sends the liquor intc a no-licensi district must send particulars of the purchase (in fact, a duplicate of the invoice, including the name of the purchaser) to the eoliecto* of customs, and that the liquor so sent must be for private consumption, and not for sale. It was also agreed that the State control proposals «houla he allowed to go out of the Bill. In return tor the withdrawal of. these clauses

the no-license representatives agreed to support the clause giving discretionary power of endorsement to magistrates, and also to let the Premier drop clause 58, with reference to tied houses, and not to seek to make the law in relation to tied houses in any way more stringent than in the existing statutes. These are the main points agreed upon. The conference, however, went right through the Bill, and inserted some minor amendments, mainly necessary on account of the clauses which the conference agreed to strike out. It is also understood that the conference agreed to help the Premier in refusing to accept any of the new clauses which nave been proposed by members of the House. The object of the conference in coming to this conclusion was to ensure getting the Bill through the House, the feeling being that if once the House started on new clauses, the discussion might be much prolonged. The arrangement arrived at is, of course, binding only upon those present at the conference. When it was first whispered that a compromise had been effected, it was thought that the Bill would get through committee to-night, but the House showed a. disposition to thoroughly understand the terms of the amendments proposed on clause 11, some of the members who were not invited being a trifle suspicious of the whole arrangement, and this may lead to more delay than the conference counted on. It is understood that the leading spirits in bringing about the conference were Mr. McNab and Mr. Kidd, and its ultimate success was no doubt largely due to a desire on the part of members of the Government party to save their chief from the certain defeat of his no-license no-liquor and State control proposals. Another important amendment agreed to at the conference was in clause 22, bearing on the taking ot a fresh poll in the event of any local option poll being declared invalid. Clause 22. as it stands in the Bill, provides that when a fresh poll is taken it shall not be valid unless the number of votes recorded is one-half the number of valid votes recorded at the first poll. The no-license members of the conference conceded a point here to the opposing party, and agreed to support the insertion of 55 per cent, instead of one half the number recorded at the first poll, otherwise the main points of the Bill were approved by the conference. !

PROPOSED AMENDMENTS. LCENSING COMMITTEES. Mr. Wilford has given notice of a new clause in the Licensing Bill, to repeal section 11 of the Act of 1903. which provides that a member of a licensing committee is not disqualified because he has given pledges on the licensing question prior to his elec- : tion. TIED HOUSES. A new clause in the Licensing Bill has been given notice of by Mr. Wilford, to provide that where in the lease of licensed premises there is a rent which is intended to be actually paid, and a larger rent inserted in the lease with the object of securing that the lessee shall buy his liquors from one particular person or corporate body, then the rent intended to be actually paid, and no more, shall in any event become payable, and in determining what rent is intended to bo actually paid any Court of law shall be entitled to receive oral evidence of any agreement or understanding between the parties, whether expressed or implied, and to examine entries in books kept by the parties respectively, and to hear evidence as to values, and shall determine the same upon a consideration of the whole of the circumstances. ONE MAN ONE VOTE. One result of the failure to get the reduction issue erased from the local option ballot paper is a proposed new clause in the Licensing Bill, nt which Mr. Millar- gave notice to-day. The object of this clause is to prevent an elector voting for both nolicense and reduction, by confining every elector to a vote for only one of the issue's on the ballot paper. LICENSE FEES. Mr. James Allen has given notice of a new clause in the Licensing Bill as follows: —"Where, owiug to the decision of the Privy Council, license fees nave been paid in full, the local body receiving such fees shall return to the licensee such amount of the fee as may be proportional to the time during which tho licensee did not have the privilege of the license." W.C.T.U. PROTESTS. At the meeting of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, in the Central Mission Hall, it was resolved to send a telegram to the Premier, strongly protesting against State control and clause 9 of the Licensing Bill. b \