PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXX, Issue 9287, 24 August 1893, Page 6

PARLIAMENT.

[by telegraph, association.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. SECOND READINGS. The Lyttolton Orphanage Lands Vesting Bill, the Taranaki Relief Fund Distribution Bill, tho Customs Duties and Excise Bill, were read a second time. the ELECTORAL bill. Mr. Macoregor resumed the debate on the second reading of the Electoral Bill. Ho said a Tconsiderable number of women, if not a majority, were desirous of exercising the franchise, therefore it was the duty of the Council to pass the clause. Mr. Montgomery also spoke in favour of the clause, and maintained that women were equal in every respect to men ; and, as they wore taxed equally with men, so thoy were entitled to the same political advantages. Morally, socially, and intellectually they had proved that they ever had the best interests of humanity at heart. If women took part in politics, elections would be conducted more orderly, and tho atmosphere of Parliament would prove to be purer. As an act of justice, women were entitled to emancipation. Mr. Hart, as one who had recently visited the London County Council's meetings, in which women occupicd seats, supported the clause for 'tho enfranchisement of women, who, he considered, wore quite fit. to exercise tho privilege of voting. Mr. Holt likewise supported tho clause. On the motion of Mr. Stewart the debate was adjourned till next day, and tho Council rose.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday. The House met at 2.30 p.m. NATIVE sufferers BY the waikato FLOODS. Replying to Mr. Lake, whether the Government would render any assistance to the Maoris at Waipa, who had been reduced to absolute want by the late floods destroying their potatoes, Mr'. J. McKkn'ZlE said inquiry would be made into the matter, and if it was found to be of such urgency as stated by Mr. Lake, relief would be given. PUBLIC works statement. Replying to Mr. Richardson. Mr. Seddon said, as public business was making progress, he hoped to bo able to bring down the Public Works Statement very shortly, and he hoped to be able to state on Friday what Bills the Government proposed to go on with this session. martini-hen ry RIFLES. Replying to Mr. Duthie, Mr. Seddon said he had received a cablegram from the Agent-General to the effect that 200 Martini-Henry rifles had been shipped for the colony by tho steamer Tongariro. questions on the order paper. Mr. J. McKenzse announced that the Government did not intend replying to questions on the Order Paper that afternoon, as they wished to get on with the Alcoholic Liquor Bill without delay.

ENDOWMENTS FOR EDUCATION. Mr. J. McKenzie moved "That this House approves of the lands described in the paper laid before the House, on the 30th June, being permanently sot aside as endowments for education." Agreed to. I,AND AND INCOME TAX. The Land and Income Assessment Act Amendment Bill was introduced by message from the Governor, and read a first time. THE LICENSING BILL. The Alcoholic Liquors Sale Control Bill was further considered in committee. Clause 8 : Costs and expenses of elections and of taking polls, how to be paid. Mr. Moore moved That all words after the first word of the clause he struck out, as an instruction to the Government that the House disapproves of the proposal in the clause to make local bodies pay tho cost of these elections."

Mr. Seddon opposed tho amendment. He said if it were carried it would make the Act a dead letter, and would necessitate a special appropriation being made for it. Mr. Earnshaw would like to know who paid for these elections if it were not the taxpayers of the colonyHo thought it would be far better if payment wore taken out of the consolidated fund and not left to local bodies. Mr. Lake pointed out that tho cost of th.,ise elections would be nearly as much as that for the election of a membor of the House, and it must not bo forgotten that if licenses were reduced the revenue of local bodies would be seriously diminished. He hoped the Premier would be able to make some concession in this respect. Mr. Seddon said it was never contemplated that this burden should be put on the taxpayers of the colony. He should be willing if it were found that the expense was more than local bodies could bear to put a vote on the Estimates so as to give the House an opportunity of dealing with it. He might also point out that, under the law as it stood, they held 403 elections, whilst they would only have 02 under the present bill. Mr. Wilson* suggested that the local bodies might be subsidised for the purpose. Sir. R. Stout submitted that, if a poll for local option were taken on the same day as the election for members of the House, the cost to the Government would not exceed £500. He hoped this course would be agreed to, and the cost in that case would not be worth considering.

Mr. O'Conor said these elections would cost more than they cost at present. The House knew that local bodies wero now in an embarrassed position, and it would be much fairer to let the colony pay the expenses of these elections than to put them on local bodies. Mr. Scoiiirc Mackenzie thought that Sir R. Stout and Mr. O'Conor were laying altogether too much stress on the question of expense. Sir 14. Stout was really proposing a great constitutional change, and a very retrograde one too. It was, in fact, the beginning of the referendum. [Sir 11. Stout: The Bill means that.] He did not agree that the Bill meant referendum. If this were allowed the representation principle was practically gone, as if they could decide this question by a poll of this kind what was to prevent them taking the same course with regard to the nationalisation of the land. He thought Mr. Wilson's proposal a very fair one, namely, that the Government should subsidise local bodies so as to enable them to pay tho cost of those elections.

Mr. Skddon said the expense of the elections would be much less than at present, and there would be only 02 instead of 403. As he had said before if it wero found that the cost was too heavy for local bodies, ho should propose a vote to the House after the first election?. He advised the Houso to allow the matter to remain as it stood, as if an alteration were made in this respect it would follow that the Government must bear the whole expense in connection therewith.

Mr. Buchanan wished to know whether under Sir R. Stout's proposal there would be an election for licensing committees after a dissolution of Parliament. Sir R. Stout replied in the affirmative. Mr. Buchanan said in that case there would be a fresh election for licensing committees without any reason whatever. Mr. BkoC,e thought Mr. Scobio Mackenzie's remarks were directed altogether against the principle of the Bill, which was meant to give the people local control of the •liquor traffic. He said as local bodies were now so impecunious in many cases the cost of elections for licensing committees should be paid out of the consolidated fund. Mr. Mackintosh supported Sir R. Stout's proposal, and said that if the licensing poll were taken on the same day as the poll for election of members of the House it would be a great saving, and be also a great convenience. Mr. Fkkous strongly protested against burdening local bodies with this expense. It would be the last straw on those bodies, and the whole system of local Government would break down under it?. It would be sufficient for local bodies to lose _ their revenue if local option were carried without having to pay the cost of these elections every year. Mr. Moore's amendment was lost by 36 to 31, and the clause passed. Clause 9: Opinions of member not to disqualify. Mr. Fish moved that this clause be struck out. He contended that the extreme temperance faction , was as much i interested in keeping ! down licenses as [ brewers or wine merchants were in keeping

them up, and it was only a matter of justice and fairness tbat if brewers were prevented from sitting on licensed committees, Prohibitionists should also be prevented. Mr. Seddon hoped the Committeo would pass the clause as it stood, and not agree to strike it out.

Sir R. Stout thought the clauso was utterly valueless if the rest of the Bill remained, as it took away the power of the committee altogether. It was a retrogressive step, such as had not been in force in any country where a licensing law existed. Mr. Seddon referred to Sir R. Stout's inconsistency, as that hon. gentleman had stated, " why not trust the people," and now lie complained of power being taken from the committee. He (Mr. Seddon) hoped the clauso would not bo interfered with, and he contended they should do their best to prevent litigation. Sir R. Stout said his contention was that this clause was valueless if tho other clauses of the Bill were kept in. As to trusting the people, did section .15 of this Bill trust the people? It certainly did not do so, and if it passed as it stood, ho should move to add to the title " a Bill to givo people less control over the liquor traffic than they had at present." After further discussion, tho clause passod as printed. Clause 10 : Alteration of licensing law. Mr. 0. Hutchison moved that the subsection be struck out which provided that any widow and any wife who has obtained a protection order may hold a license under tho Licensing Act, but save as aforesaid no woman, whether married or unmarried, shall hold a license under the authority of the said Act.

Lost by 40 to 25, and tho subsection retained.

Mr. Seddon moved to add a proviso to the effect that nothing in this provision shall apply to any married or unmarried woman who at the time of tho commencement of this Act is the holder of a publican's license, bub every such married or unmarried woman may continue to hold a liconse and have the license renewed from time to timo, and may at any time tnako a lawful transfer of such license as if this section of the Act had not been passed. Agreed to. Mr. G. Hutchison moved to strike out subsection 5, which provided that every licensed publican shall, during all hours of the day or night when the premises are closed as required by law, leave all windows of the public bar unscreened and uncovered by a blind or shutter, either inside or outside, so as to expose tho whole of the interior of the bar-room and bar to the public view at all times during tho said hours.

The amendment was carried by 32 to 30, and the subsection struck out. Mr. W. Hutchison moved to strike out subsection 7, which provided that whenever a license is granted after the taking of a poll, the licensee shall have the right of an annual renewal of such license for two years unless his license becomes endorsed in the monntimofor any breach of the law. A lengthy discussion ensued which was interrupted by th 05.30 adjournment. Tho House met at 7.30 p.m. in committee on the Alcoholic Liquor Sale Control Bill. After a further lengthy debate Mr. Hutchison's amendment was lost by 37 to 22.

Sir K. Stout then moved an amendment to the effect that the right of a publican shall not be a compulsory one. Lost by 36 to '2(3. Sir R. Stout moved a further amendment the effect of which would be to allow a committee to refuse a license under subsection 5 of section 81 of the present Licensing Act on the ground that the license was not required or was likely to be injurious to the peace of the neighbourhood. Mr. Skddon characterised this as a cunning move to enable a committee to cancel licenses notwithstanding the vote of tho people. Sir R. Stout expressed the opinion that the whole Bill as it stood was entirely in favour of the licensed victuallers and the liquor traffic. The amendment was lost by 53 to 16. Sir R. Stout then moved the following, "Provided always that this sub-section shall be inoperative, unless a majority at a poll under this Act shall have voted that the present number of licences shall bo continued." Mr. Seddon opposed the amendment, which was lost, after a lengthy debate, by 37 to 30.

Clause 10 as amended was added to the Bill by 49 to 1.5. Clause 11: No increase of licenses to be allowed until after the census is taken, and then only on certain conditions. Sir H. Stout moved to strike out that portion of the clause providing for a threefifth? majority of the total votes recorded at the poll. Ho said the meaning of his amendment was, that if the majority wished for an increase of licenses, the majority must rule. He wished to trust the people, and if the people desired licenses to be increased, the people must rule. Mr. Seddon asked the committee to bo consistent, and nob agree to the amendment. He had thought this clause would havo been agreed to by the temperance party, and he denied that it was in the interests of the liquor trade at all. The amendment was lost by 51 to 11. The clause was amended on Mr. Meredith's motion, so that the total number of votes recorded must be not less than one-half instead of a-fourth of tho electors on the roll.

The clause as amended was passed. Clause 12, new licenses to be granted subject to tho vote of the electors. Mr. Skddon moved to strike out the portion of tho clause granting a license for New Zealand wine. Sir R. Stout opposed the amendment, which was carried on the voices, and the clause was agreed to. Clause 13, Returning Officer to appoint a day for taking the poll. Sir R. Stout moved an amendment that the Governor should fix the day instead of the Returning Officer of the licensing district. Mr. Skddon* thought if) better to allow the Bill to stand as it was. Ho proposed to alter the month in which the election should be held from March to February. Mr. Meredith hoped the month of March would be allowed to remain, as February was the busiest month of the year. Sir R. Stout's amendment was lost by 37 to 27.

Sir R. Stout then moved that the returning officer may appoint tho day of a general election for taking tho poll. Mr. Moore pointed out that there would be a great many returning officers. Sir R. Stout said what lie wanted was that returning officers should appoint tho general election day for taking the licensing poll, Mr. St'.nnoM opposed the amendment, and said they would have to reconstruct the whole Bill if ib wero carried. The amendment was lost by 51 to 10. Mr. Skddon moved to alter the time for taking the licensing poll from Febuary to the first ten days in March in every third year. Agreed to, and tho clause was carried. Clause 14 ; Taking of poll. Mr. Fkk(;us moved that the ratepayers should have one vote as well as the electors. Lost on the voices. Clause 15 . Declaration of result of poll. Sir R. Stout moved to alter the majority of three-fifths to a bare majority. He contended that a bare majority should bo 1 inserted in the Bill.

Mr. Rollkston said he viewed this clause altogether with aversion, and the whole principle of the Bill as contained in this clause was wrong. To tell him that the casting vote of the returning officer could decide a great question of this kind was to say what was opposed to right and justice. He should vote for the three-fifths majority because it came nearest to what he believed was right. The Bill was altogether to his mind unsatisfactory. Mr. Skdoon said Sir Robert Stout was inconsistent in moving this amendment. Ho agreed with Mr. Rolleston that threefifth? was a compromise and with increased powers they were giving under the Bill they must have a safeguard. The Government had done its best in the matter, and ho believed a three-fifths majority was a safeguard as far as they could go. Mr. Bruce did not think the Bill went far enough in this direction, and he should support the clause as it stood. •• Mr. G. Hutchison thought if an absolute majority of those who polled, voted for the direct veto, effect should be given to that vote, and there should be no necessity for throe-fifths. Mr. Fergus said that although the Premier had jauntily told them he would bring in a Bill that would satisfy all parties, he

had brought one clown that pleased no one. Ib was neither fish, fowl, nor good rod herring ; bub they must make the besb of it now they had gob it. He would remind Mr. Hutchison that there would bo such an amounb of roll-stuffing bhab ib would be absolutely impossible to secure si majority of those on the roll. He should be in favour of a thirds majority of those who voted, bub in the meantime would support threefifths. Mr, Fish said the Premier had not satisfied him with respect to the threefifths majority. He did not think a threefifths majority of those voting was a sufficient guarantee of the interests that were involved.

Mr. Earnshaw said the more ono studied this Bill the more one was convinced ib was nob brought in to settle the liquor question. His opinion was that the Bill was a sham. Mr. lJimilE moved, "That a threefifths majority should decide the reduction of licenses instead of an absolute majority." Mr. Allen hoped this would nob be carried, as he thought they should at least have a bare majority for reduction of licenses.

Mr. Rkkves also opposed it. Mr. Duthie's amendment was lost on the voices. . - Sir R. Stout's amendment was lost by 48 to 10, and the three-fifths majority was retained. Mr. Fish moved to alter the clause, to make it three-fifths of thoso "on tho roll," instead of three-fifths of the " votes reCorded." Lost on the voices. Mr. Sand ford moved (in the portion of the clause providing that if fcho returning officer finds that the number of votes recorded ab the poll does nob amounb to one-half of the total number of electors on the roll he shall declare the poll to be void), an amendment that one-half should bo altered to two-fifths. A lengthy debate ensued on the question of purging the rolls.. Mr. Sicdijon replying to the statement that the rolls would contain the names of a lot of peoplo who could nob vote, and that, therefore, it would be difficult to secure half the number on bho roll said effectual stops would be taken to purge the roll.

Mr. Sandford's amendmont was lost by 36 to 20.

Sir R. Stout moved to strike out in case the poll shall bo declared to be void, the provision that the number of licenses in the district shall continue as thoy were before such poll was taken. He said his object in moving that those words bo struck out was to ensure that the Committee in that case should decide the number of licenses. Lost by 43 to 13. the THREE-FIFTHS MAJORITY. The following is the division lisb on Sir R. Stout's amendment to alter the majority of three-fifths to a bare majority : — For (10) Fisher, Hall-Jones, Harkne.'s, Hogg, W. Hutchison, Meredith, Newman, Pinker ton, Stout, Tanner.

Against the amendment (48):— Allen, Blake, Bruce, Buchanan, Buckland, Buick, Cad man, Carncross, Carroll, Dawson, Duncan, Duthio, Fergus, Fish, Fraser, Houston, G. Hutchison, Kapa, J. Kelly, Lako, La wry, M. J. S. Mackenzie, T. Mackenzie, Macintosh, McGowan, McLean, C. H. Mills, Mitchelson, Moore, O'Conor, Parata, Reeves, Rhodes, Richardson, Rolleston, Russoll, Sandford, Seddon, Sliera, R. M. Smith, \V. C. Smith, Swan, Taylor, R. Thompson, T. Thompson, Valentine, Willis, Wilson. Pairs:—For Stout's amendment: Joyce, Earnshaw. Against: J. McKenzic, Ward. [Left sitting, at two a.m.]