PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXV, Issue 9076, 9 June 1888, Page 6

PARLIAMENT.

[BY TBLIORAFH.— PRSSS ASSOCIATION.) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Friday. The Speaker took his seat at half-past two. ABSENCE FROM THE COUNCIL. Mr. Wilson asked the Hon. AttorneyGeneral whether it is a fact that in time past Sir F. Whitaker,. Dr. Pollen, Messrs. Waterhouse, Oliver, and Pharazyn, members of the Council, or any or one of them, have or has been absent from the Council for two successive sessions •without such permission for such absence, and whether therefore their seats have been vacated ? The Attorney-General stated in regard to the question of fact, he had no special information on the subject. The journals of the Council would no doubt show who had been absent and who had not. He would, therefore, refer Mr. Wilson to those journals, so that he might ascertain the facts for himself. As to the question of law, the AttorneyGeneral thought the mover was quite as competent to give an opinion as he was. With regard to himself he admitted having been absent two sessions, but he had received leave of absence for one, and so far as he was aware there was no question as to his position. Ho would, therefore, recommend the mover to pub the same question to the other members of the Council named in his motion, and cross-examine them himself, when, no doubt, he would find he had got into a mare's nest. (Laughter.) Messrs. Waterhouse, Pharazyn, and Pollen pleaded innocence in regard to their knowledge of the question. PAYMENT TO MKMBKRS. Mr. Ma.vtell moved, " That there be laid upon tho table copies of all correspondence and papers relative to the payment to any hon. members of this Council, residing within three miles of Paxliamentary Buildings, of any sums under authority, or supposed authority, of the proviso of subsection 2 of clause '2 of the Parliamentary Honorarium and Privileges Act, JSS7." Sir Geo. Whitmore had hoped that the Attorney-General would have made some explanation on the subject. The Attorney-General thought the explanation would be better given after the oroduction of the papers. The motion was agreed to. TE KOOTI.

Mr. Wahawaha asked Mr. Stevens whether the Government would take steps to check the frequent visits of Te Kooti and his large following to the several districts of the East Coast, especially Opotiki, which visits tend greatly to impoverish the resident natives? Mr. Wahawaha said that Te Kooti generally travelled about accompanied by six or seven hundred followers, and was in the habit of enticing other natives to give them food. Mr. SXBVESS answered that as Te Kooti was pardoned he was at liberty to visit the native districts if he felt so inclined, but Ciovernmenfc would take such means as would probably induce him to desist from the visits complained of. EDUCATION FRANCHISE. Mr. BarsicoAT moved the second reading of the Educational Franchise Bill, introduced into the House of Representatives by Mr. Steward. l>. Pollen spoke strongly against the Bill, saying he had- persistently opposed any tinkering in connection with the educational system. The Government, he said, ought to" know whether there was any necessity for any alteration in the Act, nnd any alterations should be initiated by them. He would, therefore, move as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time this day six months, and sincerely hoped that the Council would support him. Mr. Watkrhouse objected to the Bill, saying its effect would be to create cliques in school committees. Messrs. McLean and Stevens supported the BilL

The Council divided on the question, •' That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question." Ayes, 7. Noes, 13. Ayes: Baillie, Barnicoat, Hart, Lahmann, McLean, Scotland, and Stevens. Noes : Dignan, Fraser, Holmes, Johnson, Miller, Pharazyn, Pollen, Richmond, Shrimiki, Swanson, Waterhouse, Whitmore, and Wilson. The amendment was carried. The Council rose at four p.m. till Tuesday. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Friday. The House met at half-past two p.m. THE MIDLAND RAILWAY. Mr. Macarthur moved the adjournment of the House to enable the House to have an opportunity of considering the proposed new concession to the Midland Railway Company. He referred to the proposed deviation of the line, and said that as £250,000 to £400,000 would be saved by taking the line over a hill instead of through a tunnel, the colony should derive some concession also in the shape of reduction of the land grant allowed to the company. He added that if the Premier's reply were not .satisfactory he (Mr. Mac Arthur) would give notice of the appointment of a committee to inquire into those concessions. Mr. Allen said he was one of those who liad inquired very fully into this master last j session, and those who disagreed with portions of the report were now asked to agree to a considerable alteration in the line.

Dr. Hodgkijjson said he was also a member of the committee appointed last year to consider this matter, and it was his opinion that the utmost concessions had been made already to the company which could be made. They were now asked in addition to make further concessions of a very serious character. He thought there should be some finality in the matter. Mr. Seymocb thought that however much they might debate this question, whieh was purely an engineering one, they could come to no satisfactory conclusion on it. If the line could be constructed more advantageously by going over a hill instead of going to the expense of tunnelling, the company should have the benefit of such alterations. Sir H. Atkinson said the matter was a very plain one. The company had alleged that late discoveries would enable them to take the railway over a hill at much less cost than through a tunnel, and yet conduct heavy traffic at a paying rate. They •wanted the Government to insert a provision in the contract that if they could satisfy the Government on the matter they should be allowed to proceed in that way. He thought it was a reasonable request, especially as plans were to be submitted to the Government and approved by two experts appointed by the Government. Considerable discussion ensued, after ■which Mr. Macaethue withdrew his motion for the adjournment of the House, in order to a3k leave to move that a committee be appointed to enquire into the desirability of granting any further concessions to the Midland Railway Company, but leave was refused by the House, notice of the motion not having been given. Mr. Macarthur later on gave notice of his motion for Wednesday next. THE TARIFF DEBATE. Mr. Duncan resumed the debate on the second reading of the Customs Duties Bill, and in doing so he said his opinion was that it was the duty of a Treasurer to extract as little as he could from the pockets of the people. The present Treasurer did not come up to his expectation in this respect, and the proposals he had made would have an injurious effect on thousands of people. He denied that the Government had effected as much retrenchment as could be carried out. The tariff would greatly affect the people of his district, and of every country district in the colony. He did not believe for a moment in the statement of the member for St. Albans that this tariff would bring joy to every householi. On the contrary, it would crush them very heavily, as It meant nearly a 10 per cent, advance all round in prices. He referred to several articles the duty on which had been largely increased, and instanced boots and candles, all of which were heavily taxed. With respect to the tea duty, he said that the duty put him in a very awkward position, as he should be told when he went back to hie district that he voted against subsidies being given to local bodies. (Sir H. AtkinBon : "That was what we did it for.") The Premier was determined to get money, no aoatter where it came from. He (Mr. Duncan) denied there was any relief whatever afforded to agriculturists under this Bill, and if the depression did not cease before the nexb few years there would be no revenue ab all derived from agricultural machinery. He felb thab the Colonial Treasurer could have done withoub many of those duties he had imposed, and thab they would press hardly on the mining industry as well as other industries. If oiily hall the assistance bad been given to

mining that was afforded Immigration and other matters the country would have been much more prosperous than it was at present. He Felt it to be his duty to vote against this Bill in all its stages. Hβ admitted the Government had done a good deal under the pressure of the last few months, but much remained to be done yet in the way of retrenchment, and the Government would have to effect it or give way to others who would do so. Hβ asserted that every country member who voted for the Customs Bill was doing an injury to the country, and he believed the House would regret having initiated a Protection policy. The colony would be none the worse if every single item in the tariff was rejected, and it was ridiculous to suppose that the encouragement of those small industries spoken of would save the country. Hβ had no fear of the colony repudiating its engagements, and they could pay their way without the assistance of a tariff of this kind, which he hoped would be thrown out on its second reading*. Mr. Jones denied that the agricultural districts were injuriously affected by the tariff, and he was eatished with tho proposals on the whole. He should, however, accept the Premier's suggestion, and propose alteration in committee on salt, machinery, and other items which had been brought under his notice. The effect of the increased Customs duties he felt would be very beneficial to tho manufacturers of the country. As to the tea duty, he was not aware of any less objectionable manner in which subsidies could bo proyided for, and he admired the Treasurer's ingenuity in proposing such a course. He also approved of tne primage duty for meeting the deficit, and he should be even prepared to go furrhor in this direction. The proposal was a proper one, and the purpose to which it was to be applied was an unexceptionable one. Mr. Jackson was a Freetrader as much as any man in the House, and ho was opposed to Protection, but he had also to consider the best means of getting the colony out of its difficulties. The establishment of the credit of the colony was the first step for them to take as statesmen, and he thought the Government had done their best in this direction, and he for one was quite willing to allow the Government to bring in such measures as they thought best for the colony. He thought, however, that large reductions could yet be made in the Education Department. So long as he approved of the policy of the Government, and it was honestly carried out, he should support them, notwithstanding that he differed from them on a few of the details of that policy. Mr. Kkrr said the farmers were the most distressed people in the country at present, and if they were not assisted by the tariff, they would be in a much worse plight than ever. He regretted that such articles as sago, tapioca, etc., were not taxed, as country people never used those articles, except by tho advice of a doctor. The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. The House resumed at half-pasb seven p.m. THE MIDLAND RAILWAY. Sir H. Atkinson asked permission of the House to propose the appointment of the committee moved for by Mr. McArthur, with respect to the Midland Railway. He was afraid if they waited till Wednesday they would probably get into difficulties. He then moved that a committee be appointed to consider the proposed proviso to be attached to the contract, the committee to consist of Messrs. Allen, Fulton, McArthur, Samuel, Seddon, E. Richardson, Seymour, Walker, and the mover. Sir G. Grey objected that this matter was being taken too hurriedly. It could very well stand over till Tueeday. Mr. Dowxie Stewart took a similar view, and said they should have some time to consider the names of the gentlemen proposed on the committee. The motion was agreed to.

THE TARIFF DEBATE. Mr. Kerb, continuing his remarks on the Customs Tariff Bill, said he was going to vote for the Bill, and in doing so he considered he was doing hie duty, although there were many items in the tariff he did not agree with. He agreed with some other members that the cost of education was altogether too high, and those who took advantage of the High Schools should be prepared to pay for it. Referring to the Midland Railway, he wished he had never heard of it, as he felt sure it had done Nelson more harm than good. They were unable to obtain any land in that district, as it was all ear-marked for that railway. He hoped the House would pass the Customs Tariff Bill, as he felt sure it would benefit the colony. Mr. Withy said he had looked at the question from a manufacturer's point of view, as he had wished to find out whether a new country required protection more than an old one; but the result of his reading and experience was that a new country did not require protection. Referring to his position towards the Ministry, the°e were, he said, many points in their policy with which he thoroughly agreed. He also agreed with the tax on tea, because people would always be anxious to get such a tax off as soon as it was put on. Hβ saw no particular objection to the primage duty, and should not oppose any duties that were imposed for- revenue purposes. As to the education question, he did not believe in abolishing Education Boards except the Minister could show that he would substitute something for them under local control. He felt that education should begin later and end earlier than at present was the case. When he came to the House he was quite unpledged, but: had at. tached himself to the present Premier. He failed to see that the Premier had pleased both sides by the tariff he had brought down, but he did not feel in a position to offer any remedy for the present tariff, and he supposed he should have to remain in that dilemma for the present. While contesting his election it was frequently said he would not win his seat because he was a Freetrader, and it was represented to him that he should proclaim himself in favour of fostering local industries, but he refused to make any such promise, because he did not believe in it. He had found this country was already a particularly protective one, and people who were leaving the colony would not be affected much by the tariff, as they were leaving a colony already protective. After referring to the main principle of Protection at some length, he said there were some things in the free list of the tariff which he was quite at a loss to understand, such as refrigerating machinery, and machinery for dairying purposes and mining purposes. Why could not these things be made here, and why were they free ? Simply because Government knew they could not be produced at the price they could be imported for. Another assumption was made by Protectionists that Protection would keep the money in the country, but a shallower argument never existed. The fact was they had too much money in the country as* was shown by the rate of interest. Money would not be kept in the colony by Protection; it would flow backward and forward just as it was required. Protectionists evidently considered that Protection would be a good thing if left to themselves, but it was very bad if applied by other countries against themselves. He thought if they adopted Protection, and their imports were largely reduced in consequence, eo surely would people who export their corn, wool, kauri fum, etc., to the old country have to pay igher rates for carrying them, as the first question that would be put to them would be, what could they get for a return cargo. They were also told that Protection would not increase the price oi" living, and he quoted the opinion of the President of the United States that the cost of living is greatly increased by Protection. He thought an appeal to the country should be made before they took a step which once taken would be irrevocable. Hβ considered it was nob a wise business policy for them to adopt, as by far the largest number of trades and manufactures must be carried on here whether there was a tariff or not. He held they should take a common-sense view of the whole situation, and not put any shackles on industry at all. Mr. Dowkib Stewart thought the House was indebted to Mr. Withy for ths intelligent and dispassionate epeech he had given them from his point of view, but he differed from that hon. gentleman when he asserted that Protection was not necessary for a young country. Hβ (Mr. Stewart) held that Protection was of the first importance for a young country, and the same rules did not apply ae applied to England. He was in favour of the Customs Duties Bill, and thought the Government were entitled to great credit for proposing it. His opi nion, however, was that they should hav introduced a more Protective policy, e

that this constant tinkering of the tariff might be avoided. It would have been of immense benefit to the colony if it had adopted the Stout-Vogel tariff of 1885, as in that case so many people would not have left the colony and gone to Victoria. He referred to Mr. Withy's arguments as opposed to Protection, and combated the statement made that we should make no attempt to compete with English manufactures. Hβ contended that we could compete with them, and that we were quite able to maintain our own population. As to tho argument that Protection was difficult to remove, as long as it prospered there would be no occasion to remove it. His motto was, " New Zealand for New Zealanders : to employ people in the colony, and not to import everything they required." Coming to the Financial Statement, he felt bound to say there was very much of the old ring about it, an apology for the past and a promise of hope for the future. They should adopt a policy, it may be a heroic one, but it should be something very different from what they had in the past. He was glad to find that the borrowing policy was about to come to an end, as they could not overlook the fact) that a large amount of the money that had been borrowod had been spent on unproductive expenditure. Hβ instanced the Otago Central line, which led to nowhere. There was also the North Island line, on which a large amount of money had been spent, and with no result whatever. There was extravagance of every description going on in the country, and money had been recklessly squandered from north to south. Men of capital would not come to tho colony because it was a byword among nations. He deprecated any panic system of reduction while carrying out retrenchment, and should avoid as ruuch as possible throwing men on the streets who had rendered the State years of faithful service. Loss of office to those men meant absolute misery in many cases. He contended that if the loan had been floated in April, they would have saved £50,000, judging by the cablegrams that had been received that afternoon. They had also lost £12,000 for having floated £.400,000 at 5 per cent, instead of 4. Hβ regretted very much the blunder that had been committed by the Government over this matter, and he thought every lion, member would regret it. He thoujrht the Government were entitled to very great credit for the retrenchment effected, but they had yet to see the supplementary estimates before they were certain how far this retrenchment had been successful. He did not think the fact of nearly two millions of money lying in the Savings Bank, which was referred to by the Premier in such glowing terms, was anything to feel satisfaction at, as that money, if people had confidence in the colony, should have been devoted to developing the industries of the colony. He was prepared to support the second reading of the Bill, although he regretted the Government had not adopted the Victorian tariff, which he felt sure would have conferred great benefit on the colony. Mr. McKenzie (Clutha) replied to Mr. Downie Stewart's remarks. He said that hon. gentlemen took exception to the system of retrenchment initiated by the Government, yet in the same breath he denied the extravagance that had been going on. Hβ thoupht the Government deserved the heartfelt thanks of the peopled New Zealand for having carried out such a thorough system of retrenchment. There was, however, still room for further reductions in several directions. Hβ did not take up the position of some Freetraders in the House, and say they would give the Government no further taxation, as that would be absurd, and they had shown an endeavour to get the colony out of its difficulties. But the Government had asked for too much taxation, in his opinion, and therefore he should vote against this Bill. Hβ deprecated the remarks made by the Minister for Education with reference to those members who had left the Government on this question. Referring to the tariff proposals, they were entitled to support to the extent of £100,000; but the Government should have taken into consideration the high rates that were paid now for articles in common use. He considered thab the Government up to the present had done good service, and for that service they were entitled to credit, but he could not support the Bill. Mr. Peacock said Sir Harry Atkinson was to be congratulated on the very clear Statement he had laid before the House, and he could have wished the country could be congratulated on the state of its finances. As to the deficiency that existed owing to the fall in the revenue from the railways and other things, he did not think it was such as should make them despondent of the position of the colony. The Government were also entitled to credit for the reductions they had made, and he regretted that the House had not put further power into their hands by raising the school age, which would result in a considerable saving. The proposal referring to primage duty was a good one, especially as it was proposed to levy it for only two years; but it was desirable that some othar provision should be considered for meeting the required amount besides the taxation intended to be imposed. He did not think it desirable that Education Boards should be done away with, but he regretted that the school age had not been raised to six years. Payment of fees after the fourth standard also met with his approval. With respect to the Tariff Bill, ne had always felt that this colony should have a Freetrade policy, still he felt that in a new country encouragement ahould be given to new industries. Ifc was desirable, therefore, that a moderate amount of encouragement should be given to those industries, so as to bridge over difficulties incidental to all new undertakings. His opinion was that 15 per cent, was ample for this purpose, bub he found in the tariff that as much as 20 per cent, was imposed in many cases. This was going too far in the direction of Protection, and he considered it would be injurious to the colony. It was for this reason thab he could not support the Bill, which he much regretted, as he had hitherto given the Government a uniform support. He would endeavour to amend the tariff in committee, and would nob oppose such items ae were imposed for revenue purposes. Mr. McGregor moved the adjournment of the debate.

Mr. Seddon objected to the adjournment, on the ground that half-past eleven was too early for adjourning on such an important question. Sir H. Atkinson said Ministers had to be at their offices at nine o'clock in the morning, and one could not sifc up so late at night. He also said that, as the House evidently did not desire an alteration of the Standing Orders relating to day sittings, he was determined he would not sit into the email hours of the morning. The motion was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned till 2-30 on Tuesday. The House rose at 11.35 p.m.