PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXV, Issue 9075, 8 June 1888, Page 6

PARLIAMENT.

[BY TELEGRAPH. —PRESS ASSOCIATION.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Thursday. The Speaker took his seat at half-past two. TE KOOTI'S MOVEMENTS. Mr. Wahawaha gave notice that to-mor-row he would ask the Government whether they intend to do anything to check the frequent visits of Te Kooti to the East Coast? THE SAN FRANCISCO MAIL. Mr. Pkarazyn moved that in the opinion of the Council the San Francisco mail service, which terminates in November next, should not be renewed, as it is a luxury which the colony, in its present financial position, cannot afford. He had nothing whatever to say against the way in which the service had been conducted, because he believed it was entitled to very great praise, but he considered it in the light of a luxury, and in these days of retrenchment ho considered it should be done away with. The annual subsidy paid to the service amounted to £23,334 6s Bd, which meant £60 or £70 aday. He considered the direct steam service was all that was necessary for the colony during the present financial condition. Sir F. Whitaker said that it was very inconvenient to discuss the matter, because the question must be brought shortly under the consideration of the Cabinet, with a view of determining whether the service would be renewed or not, and he moved that the question be now put. This was agreed to, with the result that the motion was shelved. ADMINISTRATION ACT. Sir F. Whitaker moved the second reading of the Administration Act, 1579, Amendment Bill. Mr. Wilson objected to the main feature of the measure, which gave too much power to the Public Trustee, and said ho would move several amendments when in committee. The second reading was agreed to. THE CHINESE BILL. The adjourned debate on the Chinese Immigrants Act Amendment Bill was continued by Mr. Hart, who said the Imperial Government were at present in a critical position, and this colony should bo very careful in what it did so as not to embarrass them. Sir F. Whitaker said if he thought for a moment that in pressing this measure it would embarrass the home Government he would be the last to force it. He assured the Council that His Excellency the Governor would have full control of the Bill, and he would take care that it did not embarrass the Imperial Government. Intimation had been sent to the various shipping offices that the Bill was in progress, ana it would be unwise now to reject it. / The Council divided : Ayes, 16 ; noes, 9. Ayes : Messrs. Barnicoat, Dignan, Grace, Johnston, Kenny, Lahmann, McLean, Miller, Morris, Richmond, Shephard, Stevens, Swanson, Wahawaha, Whitaker, Whitmore. Noes: Messrs. Brett, Hart, Martin, Pharazyn, Pollen, Scotland, Shrimski, Wilson. The Bill was then read a third time and passed. SECOND READING. The Land Transfer Act Amendment Bill was read a second time, and the Council rose at 4.10. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Thursday. The House met at half-past two p.m. THE MIDLAND RAILWAY.

Mr. Allen, for Mr. Mac Arthur, asked the Government —1. Whether they will invite the House to take into consideration the proposed new concessions to the Midland Railway Company ? 2. If not, whether they will give facilities to private member's to bring a motion on the subject before the House ?

Sir H. Atkinson said the Government did not intend asking the House to take into consideration what was called new concessions. There had been no new concessions at all, except as to the deviation of the line over a hill. The Government also did not propose to give any facilities for bringing on a resolution on the subject. There would be an opportunity for discussing it on the motion for going into Committee of Supply, if desired. " THE TARIFF DEBATE. Mr. Goldie resumed the debate on the Customs Duties Bill. He said he had come to the House pledged to severe retrenchment, and although he gave the Government every credit for what they had done in this respect, there still remained a good deal to be effected in the reduction of salaries. He felt satisfied, from looking through the Estimates that the country could stand much greater reductions than had yet been made, and he should do his best in Committee of Supply to effect further retrenchment. As to the property tax, he had been pledged to a land tax, and he should vote for such a proposition if brought forward by any member. Coming to the tariff, he recognised that it was in the direction of Protection, and would prevent people leaving the colony. As to the tea. duty, he thought a better plan would be to increase the publicans' licenses rather than to put 2d per pound on tea, which would fall on the poorer classes. He was not prepared to increase the school age, as he had promised his constituents that he should not interfere with that system till he felt satisfied that every other available means of retrenchment had been tried. He referred'at some length to the education question, and opposed the abolition of Education Boards, contending that the Boards were more economical in their administration than the Government would be. Speaking of the expenses of the Auckland Board of Education he pointed out that Auckland possessed 172 more teachers than Otago, and yet Auckland paid £6000 less in salaries than the Otago district. He reserved to himself the right to vote in the direction of further retrenchment in committee.

Mr. Tanner was one of those who felt greatly disappointed with the Government proposals. They were, of course, led to expect some great surprise in the Budget, but he did not imagine the Government would have gone so far as they had. More revenue was no doubt required, but he thought the cost of Government should be materially reduced, and they should cast about to endeavour to find some cheaper method of governing the country. He gave the Ministry credit for what they had done, but he thought the number of people employed in the Government of the country might still be greatly reduced. He was opposed to the property tax, and thought local government should be so extended as to take in the cost. of education. The property tax might then be abolished if the cost of education, charitable aid, and other matters were thrown on local bodies. He should like to see the revenue raised on real and personal property, that is on the land, and also on capital in every form, whether on deposits in the banks, shares, or mortgages. A tax of this kind would also not be of so inquisitorial a nature as the property tax. Heshould like to see the tariff increased on silks, wines, spirits, and beer, instead of on the items at present taxed. Cigars and tobacco would also well bear increased taxation. The property tax exemption should, in his opinion, have been reduced to £240. The present tariff was too protective for Freetrade, although it could hardly be called a protective tariff altogether. He combated the statement made by Mr. Reeves, the member for St. Albans, that the new tariff would bring joy and happiness to every household ; and read three letters he had received to the effect that the tariff would severely hamper galvanised iron and other industries. He (Mr. Tanner) was opposed to the tea duty, and he entirely disagreed with the proposal to apply this duty for subsidising local bodies. The proposal to raise the school age met with his approval, and he should move to that effect when the opportunity offered. He viewed with some alarm the proposals to take the land transfer funds into the Consolidated fund. Although he was opposed to the tariff proposals of the Government, he could nob forget the important work which they had carried out in the direction of retrenchment, and he should not vote against Ministers on other questions of policy, with which he thoroughly agreed, merely because be differed from them on their tariff. He approved of the primage duty for paying off the deficit, and said the House was bound to support the Government in this matter. He advised those who opposed the Government on the tariff proposals not to take a leap in the dark, and allow the Opposition to got into power, as they would probably introduce a much stronger Protective policy.

Air. Allen said he had come to the House strongly pledged to certain principles, and to support the present Premier ; but, after mature consideration, he had come to the conclusion that, if he followed him on this question, he should be going against the interests of his constituents. ° He, therefore,. felt compelled to state, although with some reluctance, that he could not support the second reading of this Bill. At the same time he gave Ministers every credit for the retrenchment they had effected, and for taking a new departure in matters of subsidies to local bodies. He believed the practice of paying those subsidies was a vicious one, and the sooner it was done away with the better for all concerned. He also agreed with the Government proposals for meeting the deficit, but ho felt doubtful whether they would carry them into practice. The proposal to abolish tho Public Works and Native Departments met with his approval, and the Government deserved credit for it. He was, however, opposed to any increase in taxation, and he thought the Estimates could be reduced by £200,000 at least. He defended his action last session on the Loan Bill, and asked whether the Opposition expected to carry their resolution to reduce that loan. He felt certain they did not, and they had not the slightest desire for its reduction. All they wanted was to get a huge loan for that year, and then next year they could have asked for another one. There were points in the Financial Statement which indicated a worse position than many of them thought. A threat was certainly held out in that Statement that a duty on sugar would have to be imposed shortly. The position they should take up now was to seriously consider whether it was not necessary, and possible, to still further reduce the expenditure of the country, for it was better to face such reductions now than next session, or the session after. He blamed the Government for not giving Mr. Ormond an opportunity of moving his resolutions separately, so that the House could determine what taxation was necessary. There was no doubt, also, that the next property tax valuations would be much less than the present one, and it was, therefore, an absolute necessity to keep down taxation. He could specify several directions in which further retrenchment could be made if time permitted of his doing so. The bulk of the proposed taxation would, he contended, fall on those who were called the poor, and he felt it was not right to burden them in this manner. Taxation fell on many industries too, and if members looked through the tariff they would find that a good deal of agricultural machinery was taxed as high as 20 per cent. He felt sorry to hear the member for Dunsfcan, who called himself a Freetrader, say he should support the Customs Bill. That hon. gentleman had referred to the fruit industry, but he (Mr. Allen) should oppose the duty on dried fruits when the Bill was in committee. He asserted that if America had adopted a Freetrade policy it would have been the largest producing country in the world. A tariff could not produce prosperity in any country, and no man in the House could prove that prosperity followed Protection. He S noted from a speech made by Sir R. Stout a few years ago to the Trades and Labour Conference in Dunedin, in which the late Premier had stated that he had been informed by manufacturers in Melbourne that some of tho local industries there were only kept up by paying low wages, and making people work excessively long hours, ana that if it Ivere not so, the industries would have to be closed. Mr. Allen would ask whether those who supported this tariff wanted the same state of things t« exist here. He also referred to the meeting lately held in Dunedin, at the instance of the member for Dunedin South, to consider the exodus that was taking place from the colony, and the best remedy to stop it. An invitation had been sent to him (Mr. Allen) and also to the members for Mount Ida and Caversham, but what did they find ? Why, that the meeting was packed by Mr. Fish's myrmidons, and nobody would be listened to but those who advocated that hon. gentleman's particular fad of Protection. It was evident that no arguments on the other side were wanted at that meeting, judging by the reception accorded to himself and two other hon. gentlemen who were invited to it. After referring to agricultural machinery and the mining industry in connection with the tariff, he expressed a hope that every member would speak and vote on this question according to his convictions. Mr. Fish asked what party Mr. Alien now belonged to ? Mr. S. Mackenzie : The Freetrade party. Mr. Fish hoped he would remain there, but he thought after the tariff was disposed of they would find Mr. Allen back again to the Government side, and he would become once more a faithful but erratic follower of Ministers. He also deprecated with the member for Dunedin East a duty on sugar, and if such were ever proposed he should oppose it. He also agreed that further retrenchment was necessary, but he felt that the member for Dunedin East should have told the House in what direction further reduction could ,be made, as he so easily asserted it could. Mr. Fish was interrupted by the halfpast five adjournment. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr. Fish, continuing his remarks, said he was free to confess that previous to his entering the House, some years ago, he was a Freetrader, but upon gaining more experience in politics he had come to the conclusion that he must change his opinions in that respect. Referring to the fruit industry he contended that the Government should give railway carriage almost free to fruit for jam-making purposes, which would greatly encourage the industry. He approved of the financial proposals of the Government as a whole, but they were not perfect, and would require some amendment. The Government had promised retrenchment to the extent of £300,000, and in a short recess they had actually reduced expenditure by £233,000, and he would ask whether that was not as much as could fairly be expected of them ? (An Hon. member: "No.") The man who said " No " must be a glutton for retrenchment. He approved of the proposals for abolishing the Public Works Department and the Native Department, but he thought greater power should be given to the natives themselves for the management of their affairs. As to subsidies to local bodies he believed the time must come when those subsidies would cease, but an injustice would be committed if this were done at present. He must express his strong disapproval, however, of the means by which the Government proposed to pay those subsidies, namely, the imposition of a tea duty. With respect to the property tax, he looked on it as a most iniquitous one, and he should have liked to have seen instead a land and income tax, which to his mind was a ' perfectly just mode of taxation. Coming to the tariff, he was in favour of it, because it was the first tariff likely to be carried that went in the direction of encouraging local industry, and as a Protectionist he therefore approved of it. The school age, in his opinion, might well be raised to six without injury to anybody. After referring to several other portions of the Financial Statement, he said that the defection of such men as the McKenzies, Menteaths, and Barrons need not cause the Government to shed one tear of regret, but what the Premier would no doubt most feel was ' the loss 'of such men as Fulton, Beetham, Bruce, Wilson, and McArthur, men who had stood by him for many years, and had rendered faithful service. His (Mr. Fish's) opinion was that the time had now come when distinct parties of Freetraders and Protectionists should be formed. It surprised him to hear the member for Waipawa declare that he should support the Government because he belived in their policy, at the same time being opposed to their tariff proposals. Referring to Mr. Menteath's speech of the previous evening, he said that hon. gentleman was one of those men who could only look at politics from a theoretical point of view, and not in the light of practical experience. If he were to visit Dunedin he would see factories there that employed about 3000 men, women, and children. He would probably not talk so much then of Freetrade in a colony where duties existed already to the extent of 16& per cent. He (Mr. Fish) felt that the Government had given them a further instalment of Protection by. the tariff they had proposed, and as Protection meant employment for many thousands of people it must be wise for the colony to adopt it. His opinion was that the best thing that they could do at present was to adopt a judicious policy of Protection.

Mr. Scobie McKenzie said he did %ob intend to reply to Mr. Fish's arguments on

the question at issue, but his remarks would apply more to a personal matter. There was one point, however, to which ho would refer, and that was, if the colony had 16£ per cent, of duty, how was it that they had nob got prosperity, instead of the deepest depression that was ever known in the world ? He should not reply any further to arguments of that kind. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Fish) had a good deal to say about inconsistency, and specially referred to his (Mr. Mackenzie b) action in that direction. Why, one would think he had been the only consistent politician that over existed. He had fought every election on Freetrade principles, but as soon as Protection became the popular cry he (Mr. Fish) changed his tactics and became a Protectionist. Then on the Bible-in-schools question the hon. gentlemen was an exdusionist when exclusion was popular, but when a change came about he laid a cully-polluted hand on _ the Sacred and avowed himself in favour of Bible-reading in schools. Ho (Mr. Mackenzie) claimed to be consistent in his Freetrade principles, and said he did not resent the reception he gob at the Dunedin meeting. He held that he had been a consistent Freetrader long before he got into the House, and it was quite true that he had left the Stout-Vogel party on that account. He now stood on neutral Freetrade ground with several other members, they naving left one party in consequence of their Protection, and he having left another. He did not believe for an instant that the cause of Freetrade was lost. The tariff had yet to go through committee, and no two Protectionists could agree as to what they wanted to protect. He did not feellike the member for To Aro—that he had been betrayed by the Government in this matter, and he thought his hon. friend, the Premier, was inclined to Protectionist views. He did not think, however, that the Premier's views in that direction induced him to bring in the tariff. The fact was, he brought it in as a matter of expediency, as hon. gentlemen were generally inclined to go with public opinion. His opinion was, however, that the tariff was a very oppressive one. After referring to the tariff proposals generally, he said the logical outcome of the present position was that the Cabinet should be re-constructed, and that two or three Protectionist members should be taken into it, which would give Freetraders a fair chance of going into Opposition to assert their principles. He held that it was admitted, even by Protectionists that the cause of the depression was the low price of our produce, and what was wanted now was to get foreign produce cheaply into the country. He felt glad that all the Freetraders were together, and he was exceedingly glad to be associated with a party which, he hoped, would have some measure of success.

Mr. Fisher said the member for Mount Ida had found fault with every Government that had sat on the Benches, but he had little to say about Protection when he was elected to support the Stout-Vogel Government in 1885. His comnlaint against the present Government — every other Government—was the same as that which happened to the man and a balloon, namely, he was not in it. The hon. gentleman had at last announced himself as being in opposition, and he (Mr. Fisher) thought that was the best position for him to take, as it would be the best means of attaining his object. As for Mr. Monteath, he had been slipping and sliding about since he came into the House, until lie ran a risk of slipping into the darkness of absolute nothing. He had referred to himself (Mr. Fisher) in strong terms, and although he had every respect for those other hon. gentlemen who had felt compelled to sever themselves from the Government, ho was bound to say he felt no respect whatever for those two hon. gentlemen, Messrs. Menteath and Scobie McKenzie, who sat side by side, and ho should allow the electors of Wellington to decide between his (Mr. Fisher's) honour and Mr. Menteath's. He contended that the Government had taken the education question in hand boldly, and he felt grateful to the generous criticism of the member for Napier and the member for Wanganui. With respect to the abolition of Education Boards, the Government had decided not to make any proposal to the House this session, as they thought the constituencies should have an opportunity of considering this important question. He hoped that no step ever taken by this Government would tend to impair the*efficiency of the education system. Referring to the financial proposals of the Government he said that if the member for Thorndon had any desire to do the Government justice, he would have acknowledged, like the member for Dunedin South and other members, that the Government, before imposing additional taxation, had effected almost superhuman retrenchment. They had shown an actual reduction of £233,000, and there was no mere promise about it. No other Ministry had ever been called upon to undertake such a work, and he asserted they had done all that mortal men could do. It was a poor reward for men who had worked as they had done, to be told they should have retrenched further. He would ask the Freetraders how was it possible to apply Freetrade principles to a country which had a debt of £40,000,000, and had £2,000,000 annually to pay for interest, and how was the revenue for such a country to be raised except through the Customs ? He contrasted the tariff of the present Government with that of last year brought down by the late Government, and said the difference between the two was that the latter imposed £'25,000 taxation on the poorer classes, while that of the present Government had not, at any rate, imposed taxation to any extent on articles consumed by the poorer classes. Hedefended the primage duty, and said the Government did not intend using it in any other manner but for paying off the doficit, which would go a long way towards establishing the credit of the colony. Instead of being blamed for that duty, they should have received the approbation of the House. He did not share the opinion of those who said the colony was going from bad to worse. He had a higher hope in the future of the colony than that. As for those gentlemen who had left the Government on their proposals, he had nothing to say against them, but the Government should not have received censure for having justified their pledges to the House, and for being compelled, through falling revenue, to impose additional taxation.

Mr. Walker regretted some of the remarks that had fallen from Mr. Fisher. With respect to education, he was convinced the House was right when it refused to alter the school age last session, and he hoped it would adhere to that decision. He thought the Minister for Education was manifestly unfair when he compared the taxation of the present Government with that of the late Ministry, and if it were not for the proposals of last year having imposed a certain amount of taxation on property, the Customs tariff this year would not have been so well received. He was sorry to hear the member for Mount Ida indulging in expressions that he felt sure he would regret. The hon. gentleman had stated that the Opposition were not sincere in supporting the Government proposals. He (Mr. Walker) failed to see what more they could have done to prove their sincerity, and they were acting as they were doing because they thought those proposals were for the good of the country. He denied that Protection meant prohibition. Protection meant regulating a law of Nature, which said that the strongest live and the weakest go to the wall. They, therefore, preferred to establish a certain amount of Protection for the employment of their labour, in the production of articles that could be made in the country, and the result of his reading on the subject led him to think that it was an agricultural community that benefited most by Protection. This policy would also give them a better market abroad for their products. He thought at this juncture of the colony the Opposition would be failing in its duty if it did not respond to the efforts of the Government in the difficult work they had to perform, but if it was desired to oppose their proposals everyone of them could be attacked singly, owing to the speeches of the Premier and his colleagues for the last three years. The Opposition, however, had no intention of embarrassing the Government, and were desirous of assisting them as much as possible. He held, however, that if the late Government had continued to hold office they would have been able to show as much retrenchment as was now claimed by the present Ministry. He regretted the present system of Protection had not been instituted some years ago when it was proposed by the late Government, as in that case it would have prevented numbers of young men from leaving the colony. He approved of taking away subsidies from local bodies.

Mr. Soobie MoKenzie wished to make a personal explanation with respect to what had fallen from the last speaker. Referring to the passage-of-armsbetween himself and the member for Dunedin South, he had placed himself in the hands of some of the older members of the House, and their opinion was that he had gone a little too far. He thought so himself, and he now wished to say that anything he said that was outside the bounds of parliamentary decorum, or any allusion that was not of a distinctly political nature, he desired to withdraw, as he had no desire to wound the feelings of any member of the House.

Mr. Duncan moved the adjournment of the debate.

This was agreed to. The House rose at 12 o'clock.

ARCHHILL LICENSING DISTRICT.

MEETING OF RATEPAYERS.

A meeting of ratepayers and residents of the Archhill district was held last evening at Newton West schoolroom, in Great North Road. The chair was occupied by Mr. H. Thompson.

The Chairman, in opening the proceedings, stated the object of the meeting to be to take into consideration the efforts that were being made to increase the number of licensed public-houses in the district. He said that at the last local option election in the district a number of ratepayers had neglected to vote for two reasons : —Ono was that the great majority did not know that a poll was being taken, and others had no idea that there was any intention to propose any increase in the number of licenses. Had this been generally known the result would probably haVe been different. At present the position of affairs was that the licensing committee had the option of either increasing the number or not, as they thought fit. Many of those present doubtless knew that it was proposed at the next meeting of the committee for the district to ask for a license for a new hotel in their midst, at the comer of Cracroft-street and Great North Road. This would add £25 to the wealth of the district, but on the other hand there were those who thought it would do more harm than the £25 would do good. He then called upon those present to express their opinions on the matter. Mr. Armstrong moved, " That no additional license is required in this district, and that the granting the present application would be detrimental to the welfare of the district." Mr. Armstrong merely moved the resolution without any speech. Mr. Downie seconded the motion, saying he did so because he believed it was his duty to do so. He did not do so because he was connected with the Band of Hope, for he did not think they would care to be dictated to by the Band of Hope or any other organisation. But ho had lived in the district some 25 years, and he thought this gave him a right to express his opinion and give him some interest in the district. One great objection to the new license was that it was in proximity to a public school, and he thought the welfare of the children was a matter of some moment.

Mr. Steadman asked if any of the committee were present. To this a reply was given that there were none, a voice adding, "They dare not show up." Mr. Hansen and Mr. Jenkins then briefly expressed their objections to any license being given to _ the proposed new Swan Hotel. They did this as ratepayers and residents.

Mr. Jenkins stated that the house was not needed, and he hoped there would be no uncertain voice in the meeting protesting against it. During the last few days there had been petitions against the granting of the license, signed by 107 ratepayers and 67 residents, and this without any trouble in canvassing. Only some half-dozen had refused to sign, and this for other reasons than desiring the license. He was confident that the voice of the people of the district was against the new license, and if it was granted it would be a shame and disgrace. He had presented the petition to Mr. Seaman, clerk of the committee 'on Friday last. He had, however, heard that the chairman of the committee had expressed himself to the effect that the petition was not worth the paper it was written on, and he intended to set it at naught. Mr. Philpot said that they had been lax in not voting. Another stated that he had not known of the local option poll at all, and thought insufficient publicity had been given to it. Mr. Steadman asked who had signed the certificate as to the character of the applithe new license ? Mr. Jenkins read the list of names, as follows :—Messrs Holt, Herron, Lawrence, Mcintosh, Burke, Prince, Johnson, Dignan, Jenkins (not himself), Crowning, and Johnson, Of these five would have had no voice in the local option poll. The resolution was then put and carried unanimously, amidst applause. Mr. Downie suggested that a committee should be selected from the audience as a deputation to oppose the license. Mr. Hodgson proposed, and Mr. Steadman seconded, That this meeting respectfully requests the following gentlemen — Messrs. .Steadman, Jones, Thompson, Armstrong, Stewart, Jenkins, Clare, Bellhouse, Hodgson, Downie, Dawson, Baildon, Stanton, Davidson, and Perkins to attend the meeting of the Licensing Court in person, and appeal to the committee to refuse the application, as the local option vote did not afford a fair criterion of the opinion of the district, inasmuch as the date of the poll was not known, except to those particularly interested in obtaining the license, and also that the services of a solicitor be obtained." Mr. Jenkins said the poll was advertised but only once, and that fifteen days previous to the poll. The resolution was put and carried. Mr. Maodermott stated the meeting of the Licensing Committee would be held at Mr. Seaman's office at twelve o'clock on Saturday next.

Mr. 15. Hesketh was selected as the solicitor to represent the meeting, and in case his services could not be had, an alternative was named, Messrs. Steadman, Baildon, and Hodgson boing deputed to engage him. Mr. Baildon was also appointed to receive subscriptions to fight the license. A vote of thanks to the chairman concluded the meeting.