NEW ZEALAND EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTE.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXII, Issue 7221, 9 January 1885, Page 6

NEW ZEALAND EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTE.

MORNING SESSION.

The morning session of the Institute was held.at nine o'clock yesterday. Mr. Worthington presided. D. White, M.A. (Otago), Secretary, -read the minutes of the Erevious day's meeting, which were con* rmed, TEACHERS* CERTIFICATES AND EXAMINATIONS. Mr. Bailey . said . the business for this morning was before them, and he moved the first of the series of resolution on the order paper. It was brought forward by the Hawke's Bay branch, but Mr. .Thomson, who represented that district, had-kindly allowed *.im to take charge of it, and he would read to them a short paper on the subject. The paper dealt with the subject in an able manner. In the coarse of the paper, after some preliminary remarks, Mr. Bailey said he had endeavoured to prove—l. That, the training colleges do not provide the means whereby its students may obtain the highest certificate. '•> 2. That the bulk of those who were preparing for their profession failed to pass a satisfactory examination in school management because the subject was beyond their attainments. The remedy that suggested itself to him was that school management should be taught at the University, and that training colleges as at present constituted should be abolished. This plan would require a professor of Education in the four principal centres of education. Putting down the expense at £4000, they still had a saving of £4000, which might go to increasing teachers' salaries. Maintenance money did far more harm than good. In the matter of training colleges, they had but made a feeble attempt to initiate the English system. There was nothing he desired more than to see a high and honourable profession such as theirs purged of what one might term the paoper element, which , consisted in bolstering and coddling those who were to become teachers. To sum up, he would do away with training colleges and all attendant expenses; give facilities at - the Universities for teachers to obtain professional knowledge, and so place them ■on the same platform with men of other professions. He moved "That this Council is of opinion that, in the interests of national education, the time has come when the Senate of the University should establish a teaoher's degree." Professor Aldis, without pledging himself to all the details of the plan proposed, seconded the resolution. In this colony they had three systems -primary, secondary, and University—and they were very closely connected. The connection between the first two was all that was desirable or possible, bat it was not so satisfactory as between the secondary and the University. He thought when Government bad established Universities, every opportunity should be given to those so desiring to avail themselves of this. His feeling was, that Mr. Bailey's plan was practicable. At present they had two classes of people doing the same work—the Training College and the University. His own class consisted mostly of teachers, or persons preparing for the profession of teaohers, and his colleagues were in the same position, lie would remind them that they had no College building; but, if they required to teach the art of teaching, they would require some person to take the position at present occupied by the Training College. His opinion was that, where they could get the work done by one institution instead of two, they would have greater harmony and economy, and the latter was much to be commended. The absorption of the Training Colleges by the University would, he believed, have the effect of decreasing the expense. The Rev. T. Flavell said he would move an amendment. He said he understood Mr. Bailey's plan was rather to get the B.A. degree than a new degree. Mr. Bailey explained that what he meant was thut the degree should be the same as the University degree with the art of teaching, training being an optional subject.

The Rev. Mr. Flavell, moved as an amendment, " That this Institute is of opinion that in the interests of national education the time has come when the Senate of the University should establish a Chair of Education in connection with each of the University Colleges in the colony." ' Mr. Bailey accepted the amendment with the consent of Professor Aldis, and seconded the motion proposed by Mr. Flavell. Mr. Hoqben was pleased that the subject was brought forward, and considered it practical, but there was a point they bad the look to regarding the efficiency of education that the teachers should have the opportunity of practice, either before or daring the time he is attending the lectures on the science of education, otherwise he would be torn to all sides by different theories.

Mr. Thomson considered that if the teachers' degree was only granted in this way, the older teachers who were not prepared to go in for the B. A. degree, would have to take a back seat, which, he considered, would be unfair to them. He considered the teachers' degree should be quite distinct from the B.A. degree. Let there be a Professor of Education, bat let the examination be on speoial subjects. He would support the motion, although he did not agree with the details.

After an explanation from Mr. Flavell, Mr. Thomson moved as an amendment, "That a' teachers' degree be established independent of the B.A. degree." Mr. Wokthington sympathised with the remarks of Mr. Thomson. He thought teachers who had spent a long time in the profession should not be driven to a long course of study to obtain a B.A. degree, but he thought the whole could be met by the establishment of a teachers' degree. Mr. Maokay pointed out that in New Zealand they had three persons doing the same work. They had three Colleges, one in Auckland, one in Chriitchurob, and one in Otago, so they had three men teaohing mathematics, three classics, Ac, when one would be sufficient if they were amalgamated. He thought, however, that too much was made by Mr. Thomson in regard to the difficulties of the B.A. degree. Mr. Milne said they must recollect whatever they said bad only reference to the teachers of the future. Teaohers now had their degrees equal to the University degree, for their certificates were only another name for degrees, but their future teachers should be taught with the members of other professions. They became isolated soon enough in after life without isolating them during the period of their education. Mr. Harbison did not see any use for teachers of primary schools to be constantly craving after degrees which . were not necessary. They lowered . their own profession, and the dignity attached to it by constantly craving tor degrees and positions in secondary schools. He had dozens of men and women through his schools during the last dozen years, and must s«y that the most miserable fiasco he ever had was an M.A. with honours, whom, in despair, he was obliged to remove and replace by a pupil teacher of seventeen years of aa;e. . Mr. White strongly urged that no change should be made in the system of Tsainin.4 Colleges. If tbey removed these, and established a Chair of Education, they would have a class of teachers similar to those depicted by Mr. Harrison. He saw no use in multiplying degrees. - He agreed with Mr. Milne that the provision was for the teachers to come, and in Dunedin the system was working satisfactorily, and every teacher had an opportunity of attending the University, and taking their degrees, and he saw no difficulty in any teacher of ordinary ability taking the B.A. degree, The only objection' Was that; after receiving the B. A. degree they were only permitted- one' chance of taking • the M.A. degree within six months of taking the B.A. degree... He thought a longer time should be allowed. He opposed both • the motion and amendment. ~....--,

Protesßor Alms said it was perfectly impossible for a man within six- months after taking the B.A. decree to get up the necessary subjects for the M. degree.' ; The man had not yet been found .who could do so, and it was a matter which required attention. ' .

Mr. Fidleb agreed with the remarks of Mr. White, and asked how was a teacher to devote himself to hit work, and at the same time prepare himself for the M.A. degree Within months or a year.'"'■' Mr. Fitzgerald said he could not allow Mr. Bailey's paper to pass without protest. His description of English training colleges did not correspond with his experience' in Scotland, and he should be delighted if year after j ear they obtained the same amount of success as they did in his school in Dunedin. Ho believed it was the first to be connected with the University, for which they were complimented : in England, and they were remarkably successful. Their aim was to prepare everyone of their students for matriculation, so that they might be able to take fall advantage of the University, and let all who

can afford to do it do it by all means. , He had no sympathy with the teachers' degree, bat he sympathised with Mr. Milne that their fata teachers"should rale shoulder to shoulder with their- future -lawyers, doctors, and literary men. ; ~-,.:>, - Mr. Bailey replied 'to the remarks made by the previous speaker on his paper. The Rev. Mr. Flavell also replied, as mover of the resolution! ;

Mr. Thomson's ; amendment was put and lost on the voices, and the original motion was pat—ayes, 15 noes, 8. The motion was carried.

Mr. White then moved, " That the Minister for Education be requested to make provision whereby teachers not connected with a university may attain an A, B, or C certificate." ' . . . Mr. Fidlke pointed oat that it was unnecessary, as being already provided for in the regulations. Mr. White, however, said that Mr. Habena had told him that the regulations would require to be altered, and he believed they would not issue ' separate • departmental certificates. The motion was carried.

Mr. White moved, "That the subjects of examination for an A, B, or C departmental certificate be the same in all respects as those prescribed by the New Zealand University for an M. A. degree with honours, a B.A. degree, or the first section of the B.A. degree respectively.";. . - Mr. Thomson seconded the motion, and it was carried without discussion.

Mr. White then : moved, "That those teachers who have taken the B.A. degree of the New Zealand University, but who did not proceed to the honours examination, may have an opportunity of obtaining an A departmental ■ certificate by passing the necessary examination." This was. put and. carried. -' -.. \ * Mr. Thomson briefly, moved, "That the Minister for Education be '. respectfully requested to abolish for the* future all classification upon the ground known as 'further evidence.'" ,-,' , ■

The motion- was opposed by Messrs. White, Robertson, Fitzgerald, and Robinson, and supported by Mr. Hogben. Mr. White having replied to the motion, it was put to the meeting: Ayes, 16 ,noes, 12. The motion was therefore carried. The meeting, which commenced at nine, rose at half-past eleven a.m. EVENING SESSION. The evening session was held last evening. Mr. Worthington presided., There was a large attendance. , . » SYLLABUS OF IVSTRI7CTION. Mr. White said that the business of the meeting was to take up this question where it had. been postponed last night. They were aware that the resolution proposed had been disposed of in a way which was not satisfactory, and he would move the suspension of the standing orders, in order that Mr. Thomson might move the resolution of which he bad given notice. Mr. hoGDEN objected to the suspension of the standing orders until the resolutions which he had to move were dealt with. ••

Mr. White, however, pointed oat that his resolution would depend largely on the fate of Mr. Thomson's motion, and the motion for the suspension of the standing orders was agreed to. •• < Mr. Thomson then said that there seemed to be a misapprehension last'eight as to the bearing of history and geography as pass subjects and class subjects, lie would not speak at any length, but he pointed out that no inspector would expect that all the syllabus would be taught,.:but one subject was chosen, and his experience was that science was the most pleasurable to the children, and 'data subjects were more satisfactory than pass subjeot. It would be better if they returned to the good old plan ot class or school examinations as the method in which these subjects were examined. It would produce more real good effect. In history and geography the result would be this : — What was the object of teaching history ? Was it to give the pupil data, or contrast the advance of science and civilisation with former periods? If that was the object, away, he said, with pass subjects. The object was to teach them the bearing of one period on another and the advance of civilisation, and it would ba more satisfactory to the teacher. Then, in regard to geography, the same arguments applied. He quoted the syllabus of the 6th Standard, a programme bristling with hard facts. He did not dispute thai such a knowledge was useful and necessary, but the result system, if it did not actually exist, did so in effect, and the teacher did not go outside the syllabus, but if he was left uncontrolled he would do something more, and instead of training the memory they would train the intelligence of the children, and the good inspector would be able to judge of the position of the school. He moved " That history and geography be class subjects, not pass subjects." Mr. Heslop seconded the motion, and said that the Northern members seemed not to understand the difficulty of the history and geography subjects in the South, and why they (Utago) wanted them made class subjects. ..; The President said he wished to disabuse the mind of Mr. Heslop. The questions given in Otago and Auckland would run in almost parallel lines, and that was not the reason for the opposition offered by those who opposed the motion. Mr. Flood said he would support the motion if Mr. Thomson would omit the subjeot of geography, Mr. Thomson declined. Mr. Flood then moved, " That the word ' geography' be left out of the motion." Mr. Mc ARTHUR drew attention to the fact that, as the pros and cons of this subject had been heard last night, he thought they should restrain their eloquence. He should like to say two gentlemen voted on the wrong side. He moved, " That history be a class subject below Standard 5 ; that geography remain as it is, aad that history be a pass subject in Standards 5 and 6." Mr. Flood withdrew his amendment in favour of this, and seconded it. Mr. Stewart spoke at some length against the proposal of Mr. Thomson, stating a number of objections to the class examination which, he considered, would break up the uniformity which should be maintained, and would tend to lower tha standard of education. He was prepared to support the motion that that history should be class examination, but should certainly oppose geography being treated in the same way. Mr. Hogbkn repeated some of the arguments used on the previous night in support of the motion. What they wanted was the method of teaching the principles and laws of geography and history. He quoted an instance which came under his expeiience in a history class. It had to be taught in twenty-six lessons, requiring ten pages of lessons. He found he had no time to attend to explanations,; and had,only time to instil the facts on their minds, and .he felt he had not used the teaching of history properly. The second year he protested, and was allowed to pursue his own course and the result, so far as the developed intelligence of the boys under his charge, was moat satisfactory. They understood what they learnt and its principles. The report that year was on the class as a whole. For that reason he should most strongly support the motion.

The Rev. Mr. Flavell said that one great advantage of these meetings was to /exchange views. Last night he was opposed to these subjects being made class subjects, but after hearing the forcible arguments of Mr. Thomson, and the cogent reasons of his colleague, Mr. Hogben, he was now convinced that the cause of education would be best served by making history and geography class subjects. . • , > Mr. Mason also supported the motion. _ Mr. Whits supported the motion, urging that class, examination was the fairest method of inspection, and better for the children and better for the reputation of teachers. He illustrated his remarks by examinations in history and geography, pointing oat their anomaly and unfairness. He contended that they had reason, principle, and justice on their side, and he asked the Institute to adopt the resolution proposed by Mr. Thomson.

Mr. Coates said what Mr. White had said regarding these examinations was applicable to all examinations, yet in the University examination the pupils were not examined ou all they had learned, but on the subjects selected. He contended that science and other subjects, which were not pass subjects, were not taught with the same care as pass subjects, and one ounce of fact was worth tons of theory. If a class was able to answer questions, what was that if the individual child could not answer if his mouth was shut when he was questioned. . . Mr. White explained that what was meant by a olass examination was that the class, as a whole, was examined, and the Inspector

was able to judge of the proficiency of the class.

! The amendment was put. Ayes, 9; noes, 15. . The amendment was lost.

| The motion was then put, and carried on the voices amidst applause. I Mr. Hogben moved "That geography be removed from the 2nd Standard as a test subject." ...; :a „;; . v . ,;.. . Mr. Milne seconded the motion, which supported by the President and put to the meeting—ayes, 15 noes, B.— motion was declared carried. v

Mr. Hogben then moved that history be excluded from the 3rd Standard. —The motion was carried on the voices.

Mr. Hogben then moved that the syllabus of instruction in public schools be divided into seven standards instead of six as at present. He spoke in support of his motion, explaining that the object was not to add to the syllabus, but to give seven years instead of six, and it would give the teacher more time. This was the rule adopted in England.

Tne Rev. T. Flavbll warmly seconded the motion.

Mr. Fitzgerald' said that his experience was that they were not only able to doas much in six years in New Zealand than they did in England in seven, but more, and he could not support the motion. Its effect would be to add to the burdens of the country schools. Although they had six standards, i 6 was not necessary to pass them all in six years, and in fact he rather approved of two years being passed in the 4th Standard, and of pupils failing sometimes. ' Mr. Thomson spoke to the same effect. They had already passed resolutions seriously affecting the syllabus, and if they asked the Government to entirely alter the syllabus, it would be asking too much. , The President also objected to the multiplication of standards, and agreed with the remarks of Mr. Fitzgerald that it was a good thing that a pupil should be two years in the lower standards. Mr. Milne did not think the time had yet come for a subdivision of the standards, although he believed that the time would come when the 4th Standard would be divided.. .

I Mr.' Flood pointed out the unwisdom of making so many requests to the Department. He agreed to a certain extent to the wisdom cf a 7th Standard, but he could not support the motion. Mr. White supported Mr. Hogben's motion. It would give teaohers seven years to accomplish what they were now required to do in six.

Mr. Coates spoke in opposition to the motion, and Mr. Dickenson and Mr. Harrison in support of it. Mr. Hogbbn replied to the arguments urged against the motion. He said Mr. Stout had expressed willingness to receive arlijSfittons, even of the most sweeping cKrWJtfer, from the teachers and this Institute, and Mr. Habens had expressed himself to the same effect, so thut it was unfair to use the argument, that they were asking too much. He pointed out that nc extra work was required, but merely a subdivision of this work.

: The motion was then put. Ayes 12; noes 13. The motion was declared lost. The Rev. Mr. Flavell moved, "That a teacher shall have the power of withholding from the standard examination any pupil who has not made 300 attendances during the school year preceding the examination." Mr. White seconded the motion.

Mr. Fitzgerald asked if one last Order-in-Council was not in force throughout the colony. The President said it had been adopted by this province and that preoluded the necessity for the resolution. Mr. Thomson said that in Hawke's Bay the Inspector insisted on every child being presented, and Mr. Fitzgerald said the new Order-in-Council was neglected and not adopted by all the districts. It had a serious defect in it which he explained, If a teacher had only the day previous to the examination received a pupil who had passed a standard he would be obliged to present him in the next standard, and his failure would be recorded against the school. He brought this under the notice of the Department, and it might be re-considered, but he (Mr. Fitzgerald) thought the motion better and supported it. • .-,. Mr. Coates opposed the motion, and Mr. Stewart supported it. : i' ! Mr. HoiKiNOS moved that the figures 300 be altered to 250, and this was seconded by Mr. Dickknson. This was lost, and the original motion was carried. The meeting then terminated. The Chairman announced that a meeting of the Council would be held at ten o'clock this morning for the election of officers, and a meeting of the Institute at half-paat ten.