PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume VIII, Issue 2467, 21 December 1871, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 20. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. Prayer: Present: —The Provincial Secretary (H. H. Lusk, Esq.), the Provincial Treasurer (W. J. Hurst, Esq.), the Goldfields Secretary (J. Sbt-ehan, Esq.), Messrs. Taylor, Dyer, Farmer, Douglas, Shepherd, Hamlin, Swanson, Mitchell, Kerr, Ellis, Ball, Nicholson, Gordon, Reyburn, Buckland, Freer, Philips, May, Ball, Beveridge, Maclean, Faruall, and Brookfield. rETITION. Mr. Douglas presented a petition from John Fresser Cope, relating to a land grant. NOTICES. Mr. London gave notice that he would move an undress to the Superintendent asking for .£SOO for the erection of a bridge across the Awauui, at a place known as Ea:igitoto. Mr. Dougt as gave notice that he would move an address asking for £500 for the iinproremeut of the port and harbour or Taurauga. BAY OF ISLANDS AND HOKIAXGA. Mr. Carieton asked the Provincial Secretary the names of all persons to whom Goxernment money, out of the sum appropriated in IS7I for public works north of Auckland, ha? been entrusted for expenditure within tho Bay of Islands district ? Also, whether any of such persons have retained, or are permitted.to retain, any portion of such sums for supervision or other personal service ? aud, generally, whether any of such persons have been remunerated directly or indirectly ? and if so, under what circumstances and to what amount ? He was sorry that a satisfactory answer had not been given to him when lie brought it before them on a previous occasion, lie would not move in tho matter a second time but that a great deal of uncertainty prevailed iu the minds of people in the Bay of Islands district. There was a great deal of mystery about this matter. He could only speak from information he had received, but would not repeat ■what be heard uuless the answer should not lie satisfactory. Complaints had been made in the Bay of Islands district that roads vrere made on wrong principles; that the cost of works could not in all cases be ascertained. Mr. Lusk said that some misapprehension Misted iu the mind of tho lion, member owing to the fact that, a somewhat different arrangement existed this year from that made last year. The gentle-nan in charge was selected by a large majority of the settlers in the district. He was paid by warrant, but he was to be allowed his expenses. The complaints made would be inquired into. Mr. Carleton said ho was content with, the answer. He might be allowed to say that when ho had the management he paid his own expenses. OI.D COUET-HOUBE SITE. Mr. Ltsk wished to explain more fully tho exact positiou of this property. Not having the papers with him, and owing to the great pressure of business, he had not been able to give full information the previous day. Iu 1864, £25,000 was paid to the General Government for that site. It was intended that the site should be the property of the province, the money being paid by the proTince. There was a great deal of negotiation ■with the Government of that day. In all these negotiations, tho city of Auckland was never mentioned. On the 19th of December the grant was made out, and the property conveyed to be held in trust by the Superintendent and his successor as an endowment for the improvement and benefit of the city of Aueklaud. The grant was made out in the otlice of the G-eneral Government, •which was then in Auckland. It appeared not to have been lead, for witnin less than a month after there is a letter written by the secretary of the City Board, asking ■whether it was intended to set apart the property a3 an endowment for the city, free of cost. The seat of Government had been removed to Wellington. On that letter there ivas a memorandum by the Colonial Secretary —" write and inform that it was not set apart as an endowment for the city of Auckland free of cost." EESPONSIELF. GOVERNMENT. Mr. Cableton moved, " That in the opinion of this Council the system of Provincial Government called ' responsible/ is inconvenient, and ought to be abolished." He said the term li responsible Government," where there was a:i elected Superintendent, involved an absurdity. If the Superintendent had Been a nomiimU-d head, it would be consistent. Ihe Superintendent was himself elected by the people. a:i t responsible to those who elected him. But to whom were the Executive responsible? To the Superintendent? lut the Superintendent was himself responsible to the electors, and chose to differ from his Ministers. These circumstances reduced the responsibility to a sham, for the Superintendent would t:.ke upon himself the substantial part of Government; and in doing so, what was the position of ths Executive ? The first effect of it was to divide responsibility, and once responsibility became divided, it ceased to exist. And at this time when there was a Superintendent with more than average ability and admirable administrative talents, (Cries of Question), the immediate effect was the weakness of Government. The weapon of the weak was intrigue. It was proposed to govern by party, and how was the party to be lcept together ? Dr. iSicholson : By going straight. Mr. Cabletox : Well, I can assure the hon. member that he did not keep his party together. (Laughter.) But the result was in the end extravagance —waste of money. In the larger examples of responsible government there were the immediate authorities to carry out the responsible sanction and to punish where necessary. There were checks provided of various kinds. But in Provincial Government the tendency was to place power In a Bingle Chamber. The Americans had ■bown more wisdom in this matter than the Trench. In the former State they favored 8 strong government, and placed effective checks about the representation. In a passage in a French periodical this was recognised, and the reviewer a.ated that the French plan was [to constitute the representatives a series of batteries against the Executive. The Executive derived its authority from the Chamber, and once ifc became subservient to that body it ceased to exercise its power for good. The conditions of responsibility in Government were different here from what it was in .England. There is no public opinion in this colony, and responsible government cannot exist without that healthy check. The colonists were too Scattered and apathetic. Even crime in th# colonies did not mar the political career of a man in the colonies. Drunkenness and falsehood did not cause him to lose caste. Therelore it was that Government was carried on fcy a few busybodies, who thought they understood the science of Government, without laving studied it. The result of responsible Government, under such circumstances, was jobbery and corruption of the most positive type and extravagance, for which the people paid. Dr. Nicholson seconded the motion. Mr. Fabmer looked upon an irresponsible Superintendent es a mere farce. Considering that his Honor the Superintendent had accepted the existing system ; that the Executive Council took office under it; that it had been worked so far without any collision, he thought the motion of the bon. member to he highly inexpedient. Ho therefore moved the "previous question." Mr. EiiLis said the hon* member gave the Council a Yery small fire. There was no attempt to elucidate the more pertinent relations of Government in which responsibility existed. The burden of the hon. member's speech, was its absurdity. One thing was dear, that the control of the Council over £naßce was as complete as possible. And if it were not so, what would be the consequence ? Certainly not that the wish of the _ Council or of the people would be carried out. And whether the wish of the Councilor of the people ought or ought not to be carried out was a question which could be oolred by any Superintendent or any member

of the Council. It might be that a Superintendent or Executive would set the Council and the people at defiance. That had happened in two instances. But then, although such a proceeding was based upon a calculation of individual differences, and was sometimes successful, still the power of the Council wis not diminished. It might be evaded in such a case. And all such attempts must be taken with caution, and seldom, and that there was a punishment for an Executive who did wrong cou 1 d not for a moment be doubted. A compliaient had been paid to the abilities of tho present Superintendent. That might bo true within certain limits. But ho could not see that tho administration of the Government for tl e last two years deserved any marked encomium—it was feeble—opportunities were lost—and the most j had not been made of advantages. It was true that the best men did not rise to tho lir.-«t places under responsible government. But the horrors of despotism was so great that a necessary ovil was accepted rather than a tyrannical rule. Mr. Bucklaxd regretted that such a questiou should have been introduced at so lute a period of tho session. It might possibly prevent the business of tho session being concluded at the time expected. It was inexpedient to discuss the question in the presence of the legislation of the Assembly affecting the Council. He would, therefore, support the umcmlinent to put the previous question. Ho could not, however, avoid mentioning a circumstance within the recollection of many. When 3Jr. Browu was Superintendent the honorable member (.Mr. Carleton), had something to do with governing the country. Then the Superintendent spent the money without appropriation by the Council. Was that a condition of affairs to be desired ? Mr. Mitchell seconded tho amendment. He was astonished at the blushing audacity of «nj man who was himself in oflice under Superintendents who bad used the public money for purchasing private property for themselves. 111*. CiEEETON : I say it is absolutely false. 3fr. Mitch KLr.: I say it is absolutely true, and I will prove it. And not only under one Superintendent, but under several. Did the Council recollect the attempt to sell to a few men here the old Supreme Court site ? When that affair was found outjit was turned over tho to city, and the iniquity cropped up only on that day. Even Mr. Gillies, if ho were left to himself, parts of tho province would be iu open rebellion. The goldfields would break loose from such control. It was only the hope they derived from representation in that Council that kept them together. Never had Responsible Government been so bad or so corrupt us a despotism where sycophancy was the sole recommendation to official life. Such a motion in any assemblage of Englishmen was almost an insult. Mr. Philips thought the time at which the discussion was brought on was very unseason ■ able. Mr. Fjieek spoke in favour of the amendment. Mr. Hubst spoke in favour of the amend ment. ilr. Cableton' having replied, the question was put, aud the " previous question" was carried without a division. GEKKBAL BUSINESS. An"g awal. —Mr. Shepherd moved, " That a respectful address be presented to His Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to send down to this Council a bill to repeal the M angawai Harbour Improvement Act, 1864." —Agreed to. Cray Endowments.—Mr. Philips moved, " ihat a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to send down a bill to this Council transferring the city endowments aud reserves to the control of the Corporation and burgesses of the city of Auckland, subject to present liens." —Carried. Waxgahoa.—Mr. Carleton moved, " That an address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to place on the additional Estimates the sum of £100, for the purpose of testing the coal measures at Wangaroa and Kaeo."—Carried. Roads Kobth. — Mr. Shepherd moved, " That this Council recommends that the following works should be undertaken by the Colonial Government, to be paid for out of the £60,0ii0 to be expended on works north of Auckland : 1. A road between Wnngsrei and Mangapai. 2. A road from Mangapai to Waipu, aud from Waipu to Hangawai. 3. A road from the Wairoa river by Matakoho to Paparoa. 4. A road from Mangaturoto to Oruawharo, by the Mainini and Wharebine Creek. 5. The main road to be completed through the Taulioa and Eomokoriki Blocks to Xuukapukajta."—M;-. Reyburn seconded the motion. —After a good deal of discussion the motion was withdrawn, Mr. Sheehan undertaking that the objects of it. would be brought beiore the General Government". Gold DiscovEinr Rewaed.—Mr. Philips moved, " That an address be presented (o his Honor the Superintendent, requesting liim to give effect to Interim .Report No. 3, part 2, of the Goldfields lieward Jlnquiry Committee of last session, recommending that the sum of £200 be awarded to Mr. Henry Keesing, jun., for his share in the discovery of a payable goldfield."—Negatived. Local Industry.—Mr. Mitchell moved, " That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting that he will place upon the additional Estimates a sum of two hundred pounds (£200) in aid of the novel industry of manufacturing the sand of the Manukau harbour into railway rails, coach springs, axles, &c."—Withdrawn. Pastubage.—Mr. Ball moved, " That the return of his Honor the Superintendent to Address No. 57, respecting leases on defined runs, be printed."—Carried. Public JBoaed.—Mr. Mitchell moved, "That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting that he will place upon the additional Estimates a sum of one hundred and fifty pounds (£150), 'as an honorarium to the Licensing .Board for the district of Auckland during its current year."—Negatived. Wauden.—Mr. Mackav moved, " That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to place on the additional Estimates the sum of fifty pounds, for the purpose of increasing the salary of the Warden at the Thames goldfield, from £500, as voted, to £550."—Negatived by 14 to 9. Gold Discovery Kkwabd.—Mr. Mitchell moved, " That hiß Honor the Superintendent be requested to give effect to interim Report Ho. 2, part 2, of the Goldfields Reward Enquiry Committee, of last session, recommending a sum of £500 to be paid to Walter Williamson."—Negatived. Sheep.—Mr. Hamlin moved, " That a respectful address be presented to hiß Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to send dowr to this Council a return of all monies paid into the Provincial Treasury by the Landing Inspectors of Sheep, -with a copy of the instructions to them as to the time and manner they are required to pay in the fees arising under the Sheep Act, 1863, Amendment Act, 1871." —Carried. Gold Peospbcting.—Mr. Mitchell moved, " That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintend ;nt, requesting him to place upon the additional Estimates a sum of Two hundred and fifty pounds (£250), to aid in prospecting for gold within the province."—Carried on a division: Ayes, 13; noes, 12. Poet op Thames.—Mr. Mitchell moved, " That an address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to obtain the opinion of the Engineer-in-Ohief of the colony upon the whole question of harbour and engineering works for the Port of Thames."—Carried. THAMES WATER SCTPLT. Adjourned debate on the question, "That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him, should an eligible opportunity offer, to enter into an agreement with a private company for the taking over and the completion of the waterworks at the Thames." . Mr. Bbteeidoe opposed tho motion, upon the ground that the Thames people were opposed to it. Dr. Sak said this statement was not correct.

Mr. MITCHEM/ proposed an amendment, in effect, that any scheme should be definite. Mr. Dyer said the' "psfrties" were prepared to allow the charge? £6 be fixed by the House ; that they would build a larger resorvoir than that proposed by tho Government and give a larger supply. Tho question being put, the Council divided. —Aye 9, 7 : Sam (toiler), Douglas, Lundon, Swauson, Hamlin, Dyer, Shepherd. Noes, 14 : Boylan (teller), Shunagnan, Buckland, Farnail, Farmer, Uitchell, Hay, Sheehan. Dusk, Mackay, Philips, Ellis, Bevcridge, Tjnks. OFAIIEKB 1(0AD DILI,. This bill, on tho motion of Mr. Fahiter, was read a second time by consent of both sides, the third reading to abide the decision of the Select Committeo appointed to examine the clauses, with a view to tho protection of existing interests. Tho bill was considered in committee, progress made and reported, and leave givon to sit again. auctioneers' licensing act amendment ACT. This bill, on the motion of Mr. Cabletcw, was read a second time. The objects of the bill have been explained, and the explanation printed. Mr. Tones thought tho effect of the bill .would be to inundate tho country with one pound pedlars (miscalled auctioneers), to tho great injury of the country storekeepers. He thought the Thames goldfields would come in under this bill. Mr. Carleton' consented to introduce clauses to remedy the possible injury that were suggested by the bill. Bill read a second time. Mr. Philips said he would oppose the bill strenuously in committee. Bill considered in committee. Progress made and reported, and leave given to sit again. IUBBOUR LOAN ACT BEPEAIi BILL, Mr. Lusk movod tho second reading of tho bill.—ln reply to several hon. members, ho said that he had inquired of somo members of the Harbour Bor.rd if they would bo prepared to lighten the burthen upon the Government, of providing for a number of small harbors, which produced very littlo return. He had heaid that the Board would probably be inclined to give £1C23 a year ior a certain number. But this did not como from the Board as a Board. Sir. .BiiOOKn nr.D hoped the second reading would be postponed. Tho Government consented, upon the understanding that the Council wor'd proceed with other business. Mr. Macbeady pressed tho question of postponement to a division, which was taken> and the motion was lost by 16 to 10. Mr. Bbookfield opposed the second reading. Mr. Buckxand moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr. Macseady protested against the proposed adjournment. A discussion, which lasted three quarter's of an jhour ensued, during which the opponents of the second reading were described as talking against tinio. Question of adjournment put, the Council divided. Ayes, 9 : Messrs. Dyer, Hamlin, Reyburn, Douglas, Brookfield, Hay, Carleton, Nicholson, BucUnnd. Noes, 19 : ifreer, Sam, Sheehan, Lusk, Farmer, Cadmau, Tonks, Farnall, Hurst, Dignan, Shanaghan, Boylan, Mitchell, Beveridgo, Philips, Ellis, Mackay, Macready, and Lundon. Mr. Buckland deprecated the town and country jealousy that gave acrimony to the discussion. He would support the second reading of the bill. Mr. Dignan said the province was giving up a liability on the Harbour Board of £00,000. A session or two ago tho Council would have been glad to get rid of it. Mr. Hamlin, at one o'clock, moved the adjournment of the debate. The motion was lost : Ayes, 8; noes, 20. Hon. members charged each other with factious conduct. Mr. Philips had said that the opposition was factious.—Dr. Nicholson replied that the pressing the .-econd reading was a factious proceeding. He opposed the second reading of the bill. (Iu committee, Mr; Farmer in the chair.) Mr. Brookfield moved the following addition to clause 4: —" This Act shall not come into operation until the Harbour Board shall havo paid to the Superintendent the sum of £25,000." Mr. Siieehan said it was perfect folly to stipulate a condition which tho Harbour Board had no power to comply with. At a quarter to three o'clo-'k Mr. Douglas moved the adjournment, of the Council, which was negatived by 15 to 5. The amendment was put and negatived bv 18 to 4. The bill pissed through committee, was read a \hird time, and passed. jthe 4th clause, as printed, was carried. TIIE EDUCATION BILL. Tiie Education Bill was further considered iu committee. The Council had not adjourned at three o'clock this morning, and several leading members expressed a determination to sit to .an advanced hour.