PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealander, Volume XXI, Issue 2265, 3 November 1864, Page 4

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 2 The Council met at 3 p.m. The Speaker re id ,!•« usual prayers. I,e The minutes of the last meeting wee read and en., firmed. tu "" PETITIONS. Mr. Cadman presented a petition from Mr Will-,,» Lodder, engineer, who arrived with L. Davis J a . n , Davis and James Dowding, and selected hnd v C)l with them ; but they having left Auckland, the wmli cation of petitioner was refused, on the ground that W. claim was jointly with theirs. Received and laid on the table. Mr. Ross presented a petition from Djnahl M - Mil lan, who arrived from Nova Scotia in May, IS6O but had failed to present his land order in time ou his ar rival here. Petition received and laid on the table. Mr. Wtnn presented a petition from William la'e private in the 53th Regiment, wh) had tailed to secure his land order, though he had bought his discharge for the purpose of settling here. Received anJTaid on the table. Message No. 10. Dr. Pollen brought ap an interim report from th ß Select Committee that had been appointed to consider Message No. 10 and its enclosures, and moved that it be read. The following report was then real : " Interim Report No. 1 of the Select Committee ap. pointed to report on the Message No. lo of his Honor the Superintendent, an 1 its enclosures : - •' The Committee have the honor to report'to the Council that Mr. Newman, the Provincial Treasurer bcingawitnss examined before this Committee, and' being asked a question pertinent to the matter tin ier inquiry, declined to answer the question. " D. Pollen, _ " Chairman.

'* Auckland Council Chambers, " November 2, 1864." Dr. Pollen s u" 1 that he was called upon as Cinirman of that Committee to discharge a very disagreeable duty relative to an enquiry that had been m.itla anent the appointment of Captain Daldy as linm'o-ra-tion Agent. The Provincial Treasurer who had been summoned as a witness before that Committee had refused to answer a question that had been put to him relative to this subject. It had been therefore deemed desirable by the Committee that this matter should be brought before the Council for theiA consideration and he had therefore brought up thcYrenort just read. The question which Mr. Newman had refused to reply t > was as folio vs. He had been asked whether he was aware that Captain Daldy had stated in his place in the House that he would not accept any ofiicc without the sanction of the Council to his appointment, and a'so whether he was aware that the Council bad refused to sanction his appointment. To which Mr. Newman replied that " He was unprepared to answer that question." It was then put to hira in another shape, as to whether he was inclined to afford the information sought for by the Commftte-, and which they had a perfect right to ask. Mr. Newman had also again declined to answer saying, at the same time, "If the Committee were prepared to call upon him every day for a week, his answer would be still the same." Under these circumstances the Committee had nothing else to do but to request him (Br. Pollen) to report the matter to the Council, which he had accordingly done. Perhaps it might uot be generally known that Select Committees had the power of forcing the attendance of witnesses should it be deemed desirable to do so, such a course was not often pursued ; but it had been considered necessary under certain circumstances. The course pursued in these cases was as follows: A warrant would be issued by the Speaker, an lon the witness then faring to comply with the request of the Committee, lie would be Ist. liable to a penalty of £2O, in default of payment of which, he would be subject to imprisonment in the common gaol or in any other convenient place, at the discretion of the Speaker for the space of one calendar month. He could hardly say whether the hon. gentleman had given this subject fall consideration before placing himself in direct opposition to the House, but this was the position he had placed himself in, through refusing to accede, to their wishes. He felt sure that the Council would not wish to deal stringently with the hon. gentleman in this instance, it being he was happy to say, the first case of the description that had ever come under their notice, he hoped the hon. member would take warning by it, and wished him distinctly to understand the power that the Committees could exercise. lie would now beg to move that the report be considered. The motion was then put and carried. Mr. Wynn said lie thought the hon. member owed it both to the Council and also to the committee that hi should irive some explanation of h ; s conduct, and he hoped that he would do so before any direct action was taken by the Council on the matter. He trusted he would also do so in order that the Council might afford him their forgiveness and look over the matter. His hon. friend, in remarking on the penalties that disobedience of witnesses to the wishes of a select committee in not attending, ware liable to, had forgotten to mention that the penalty was liable to be exacted against persons who also refused to answer questions. He had no doubt the hon. member had a ceruvn piece of yellow paper in his pocket which, if handed over to to the Library Committee would at once settle the matter. (Laughter, and cries of •' hear, hear.") It would be better for him to do this than to subject himself to be incarcerated in the common gaol of Auckland for one month, at the discretion of the Speaker. Mr. Kehr said from what had fallen from previous spe kers it appeared that a very grave offence had been committed. He hoped however the Council would not consider it as such. He certainly was surprised that the hon. member should have placed himself in such a position, as the question had beeu a very simple one for him to answer. He could not agree with the last speaker with reference to giving up the yellow piece of paper in question ; if the penalty had to be paid at all, he thought it ought to be paid out of the private purse of the hon. member and not out of the public funds. From what he knew of the hon. member he felt quite sure that lie had no intention of devoting that piece of paper to his own private uses. He had heard him more than once say that he purposed to give it to some charitable institution. Even this he objected to as it was not his to give. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Martin said that he thought the hon. member had been quite right in refusing to answer the question, it had only been put to him to criminate him. Mr. Foley thought it was very extraordinary that the honorable member should sit quietly by, without offering the least explanation. It was like "all that gentleman's actions. The estimates had been brought down to the House in such a singular manner that even Mr. Bassctt had deserted them. (Cries of " No, no," f "!. Mr. Newman.) The honorable gentleman might cry • no, no," but he did not see the gentleman referred to in his place. If he stood alone in the matter, it was his fixed intention to oppose every fraction that was proposed to be given to Captain Daldy. Let the Superintendent pay it out of his own pecket, as he had contracted the debt without their knowledge or consent. The appointment had been kept completely in the dark until the last moment, when they were called upon to vote a sum of money in aid of it. With respect to the yellow piece of paper (meaning the cheque), he should oppose its being given to any purpose at all. It belonged to the Province, and ought to be refunded to it. He was really surprised at the honorable gentleman taking it at all. There had been a great deal said about the hon. gentleman refraining to answer o question put to him. He thought if it was in the power of the Council to do so, they ought to force him to answer it. He should think that he ought to be the very last person to object to answer any question that might be put to him by a Select Commiitee Mr. George said that there had been a great deal said about Captain Daldy's appointment. He should like to know where they could get a better qualified person for the office. Captain Dally wai well known as an honest, upright man, and he knew ot no one that he (the speaker) would sooner employ as his agent. He thought some of the gentlemen in the House were jealous, because they had not obtaine l it themselves, This continued opposition to the Government he considered most unfair. The people had to suffer for it. Whilst the members took all the credit to themselves' for opposing certain measures, the on'y possible object that they could attain by so doing would be to bring the country to a dead-1 ick. Mr. King would like to know the question before the House. T ! ie Speaker sai I that there was none at present. Mr. --wansox said that it appeared to him the subject before the House was to-make the 1/rovineial Treasurer answer the qnestion that had bfecn asked him :•. the select committee. He tboughft the best plan would be to be continually fining him/ £2O until he thought fit to answer. ',v Mr. King moved that the House consider the business of the day. Mr. Gallacgher moved that the hon. gentleman should be compelled to answer the question put by the committee. Mr. Wynn did hope that the hon. member would give some answer to the question. The matter had been brought forward by the chairman of a select committee, and he conceived that the hun. gentleman owed it to the House to explain why he had not answered a question so pertinent to the subject. He did trust that a ; er his question of privilege {had been brought forward a< it had been that he would afford the necessary explanation.

Mr. Newman said that it appeared to be the disposition of *ome of the members ot that house to bring fOTWflld points, however paltry, so long as they could manage to obstruct public business. This question, pnlrry as it was, had now occupied the atten ion of tho Council for half an hour: He must beg to decline to nn-wer the question, or rather he would say that he was unable to do so, as it would involve so many others tha' he could not answer [Mr.'Newman then read an extract from the " Proceedings of the Council" of February las', iti which a motion hal been made by Mr J- O'Neill concerning the appointment of Captain Daidv, but which was not carried as the House was counted out.] Was he not to understand that the sentiments then expressed represented the views of the Opposition ? He was in that House as a witness, but he wa> not there to criminate either himself or his fri"n.!s. He was quite aware that some members were pmwed to carry on this discussion for another halfhour, and in doing so they would succeed in their o v,j„ c "t; rhat of impeding the business of the day. He noted that they should proceed with the business of Mr. Coolahan was astonished to hear the observation* of the hon. member. If the Council accepted this explanation ns sufficient they were not acting in tho independent spirit that he should wish to see Mr. Carmsto* said that the Council had placed themselves in a false position by these discussions about Captain Daldy's appointment. The Council was infringing on the privileges of the Superintendent. H-idhe been in the hon. member's place (Mr. Newman) he sh mid have refase I to answer the question, not for the same reason as he did, but because it was an absurd and ridiculous one. Mr. Cadman said that the hon. gentleman who had last spoken had certainly made some mo3t singular speeches during the preset session. He regretted very much that the hon. gentleman a' the head of the Executive had refused to answer thi3 question. Tbo motion that the Council should proceed with the business of the day was then put and carried. petition. A petition was presented by Mr. Kintg from Robert Hiwwell, Receivod, an 1 ordered to be laid on the table. / BUSINESS OF TUESDAY. / obstruction in edkn-street. M/Wyxn asked the Provincial Secretary, " Whe•iherftho Government have sanctioned the removal of the' fence which obstructed Eden street, to another portion o' the same street." He said that this matter -of the obstruction of the road had been very often before the notice of the Council, but it seemed impossible to have it 3et<led. It had been brought before the notice of the House last session, but no notice whatever had been taken of it during the last twelve months. But now that it was seen that the Council wore determined to see this matter attended to, somethin" had been done. They had removed a fence a littfeVurther back. This was worse than doing nothing nt all. The whole lot must be cleared out, so as to leave the highway clear. Mr. Newman said that steps had been already taken < about this as he had before told the hon. gentleman;" hut he must rememl er that " Rome was not bnilt in a <jay. , » The obstruction would be removed. Mr. Wtnn s«id that the question he had asked had not been answered. what ho wanted to know was, whether the removal of this fence was done with the sanction of the Government. Mr. Newman said it was not done with the sanction of the Government. **BAT OF ISLANDS COAL MINES. Mr. Wtnn asked the Provincial Secretary npon what lar-Jpfe Ba' of Islands Coal Mine is situate. Mr. Newman said it was upon land that had been bought by the Superintend nt by part of the balance of the money that was laid aside for the purchase of Native lands. This land would in the course of time" be handed over to the Provincial Government. onehunga-road. Mr. McGee moved, '• That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting bim to place on the supplementary estimates the sum of £250, in ndliion to the £l5O on the estimates, for the Onehunga-road by Mount Smart." Mr. Swanson seronded. Mr. Gallaughrr said he would be most happy to siv>;x-»rt this motion, if the following amendments were adopted. After the words " for the " i»sert " repairs of," and at the'end of 4;he motion to add the words, " commencing; at the t wnship, and ending at the Great South road." This motion was an absolutely noces'nry one. In its present state the road was perfectly impassable. Mr, Ross moved that the motion should be postpone! till the (ipehunga and Mount Smart-road came on for consideration in the estimates. Mr. Kino Said : Those members who had supported the nwion already were bound,to support the vote on i\\c estimates. But he should oppose it. It. was perfi'Ctlv »i«oteslto have to have two main lines of road, one half «npnorted .bvjsß inhabitants and the other half by tho Government. With respect to impassable roads.what did the hon. member think about Mount Ei!en being without a road altogether ? If this principle was once let in, there would be no end to it He should "follow it up at once. He knew various places where no monev had ever been raised for roads, and he should at once follow by making application for votes of money for roads in those places. But the true way was for the wealthy land owners who lived in that neighbourhood to contribute their share. The question was only to form a district in each locality so as to come under the "Highway's Bill," and raise money, •nd tho Government would meet them with an equal amount. If this Council stepped in and took all such cases in hand, there would be no encouragement for the formation of new Country Boards. It was perfectly useless to put sums for such a purpose on the estimates. If this we were the only one, it might be all right. But there wa9 a whole host of other places, he knew himself, at leas' forty or fifty such, where not one shilling Of Provincial money had ever been expended, and people hal never been able to get on to their land. Mr. M-Gee : Where ? Mr. King : If the hon. member desired it, he could mention forty or fifty cases in point. It was of importance that places should be connected, but there was a passable road to Onehunga already. Mr. Kerr said that if the motion was entertained he Should move for €3OO to be granted for the Panraureroad from Wellington Quarry to the Harp of Hrra. Last year this ro»d was constantly used by the Government and hy those means the roads were broken up ■and damaged to a great extent But he was opposed altogether to these grants. This road, for which money was asked, was situated in the wealthiest district of the Province, which had never yet contributed one farthing for roads. They were the wealthiest proprietory which had ever formed themselves into a district. This road lay between Dilworth'sproperty and Rooney's; two persons who had never contributed one farthing. He thought it was very unfair for that Council to be called upon to vote money in that way. The township of Onehuaga was <q tite a different thing altogether, though somehow or other the hon. member for that port (Mr. Gallaugher) it seemed could never separate the interests ot the town from the district at all. Mr. Foley said he should support this motion, after heßrino- the estimated revenne, he thought they could afford it But he did not think there was any occasion to commence at the beach, as proposed in the amendment. It would take probably from £2,000 to £3,000 to cam the road that distance. If carried on from its present terminus to Alount Smart, it would only take £'so Ons hon. gentleman had said ho saw drays get over this road without difficulty. That must have been some time ago. He could assure that hon. member that he could hardly ride over it at present. Now, in a return which had just come down that day, he saw £4OO put on the Estimates as Engineer's salary. Sure'y, then, this money could be afforded for roads. As to* the argument of the honorable member who said hs should ask for money for the Panmure road he hoped he would ask for the money. He (Mr. Foley) would rather see the money spent on roads than on salaries. He woull support any motion for roads. He hoped the honorable member would ask £SOO at least for the Panmure road. He should support the present motion. Both the military authorities and the Government required this road. He was surprised at Mr. King opposing this motion, as his own drays frequently tvnvovsinl the road. Mr. Ne vman presented copies of correspondence between the Superintenlent and the Warden of the Hundred of Onehunga relative to this road. He , roofed that it be laid on the table. \ This motion was put and carried, and also one that >tlic correspondence be read. \ Tho corr.spondenc) was then read. In it the Wari»n stated that he hoped to raise £l5O towards the of the road. The Superintendent had jflOmisad to defray half the expenses, whatever it might be, on tho condition that the other half was raised by subscription. Mr. Ball called the attention of the House to the Standing order resnecting amendments. Mr.' adman said it was a qujstion of order. TheSrE\KER ruled that it was a standing order, and could not be broken without an order from the Horse or committee. The amendment was then put and lost. The House divided on Mr. Ross's amendment, Ayes, S ; Nc s, 10. The amendment was, therefore, lost. Tho House divided on the original motion, which was carried : AyeJ, 11 ; Noes, 4,

PRIVATE GRIEVANCES. Mr. WTSN moved, " That the petitions of Captain Krippner and John Oakcs be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Carried. Mr. Cheeseman moved, "That the petition of James Cook, be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." In the absence of the mover Mr. J. O'Neill moved that it be postponed. Carried. Mr. Carleton moved, " That the petition of Edward Ashcroft Lines be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Mr. B.VL't, moved, " That the petition of George Hall be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Carried. Mr. Gallaugher moved, "That the petition of Frances Hope Herbert Lloyd be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Carried. Mr. Cadman moved, " That the petition of Robert Baghan, William McKay, James Clarkson, and James Lovrie be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Carried. Mr. Coolahan moved, " That the petition of Joseph Hawkswood be referred to to the Private Grievance Committee." Carried. Mr. Ga'laugher moved, "That the petition of Francis Naithwood be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Carried. Mr. J. O'Neill moved, " That an address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, asking him to send down to this Council copies of any correspondence received from Mr. Daldy, Agent-General for the Province." .-. Carried. 1 jMr. Swanson moved," The adoption of the following address to his Honor the Superintendent:—' May it please your Honor, —We, the Provincial Council of the Province of Auckland, in Session assembled, respectfully represent to your Honor that we were inTited during the last session of the Council by a member of your Honor's Executive Council to sanction the employment of Captain Daldy as agent for selecting emigrants for this Province, upon which occasion Captain Daldy informed the Council that he was going home on his own private affairs, and that he would not accept of any official appointment, unless he hal the sanction of the Council. This sanction he failed to obtain. Yet, notwithstanding this statement, your Honor has informed this Council that Captain Daldy has accepted the appointment of Emigration Agent at a salary of £4OO a year, nnd agent in Britain for Provincial Government, with a commission of 1 per cent, on purchases made on behalf of the Province. We bejf respectfully to inform your Honor that we received the intimation of the acceptance of these appointments by Captain Daldy with much regret, and we entirely disapprove of Captain Daldy's conduct, and wo shall seriously consider whether it will not be our duty to ♦withheld our sanction, if asked, to the payment of any salary or commission in respect of such appointment. We further respectfully request that your Honor will be pleased at the earliest opportunity to communicate this aldress to Captain Daldy, who will, they feel assured, at once relinquish his post upon beins: informed of the disapproval of the Council, of his conduct of accepting official appointments in direct violation of his promise.'' He said he had rather this motion had come from some one else. He did not not see Mr. Newman in his place to answer the questions. He appeared afraid to criminate himself. Now Captain Daldy hal stood up in his place in that Council, and said he would not take such an appointment without the consent ot the Council. He (Mr. Swanson) knew nothing of Captain Daldy's honesty or ability. No man had been more popular at one time than the present Superintendent, Mr. Graham, or would be so still, only for the bad company he kept. (Laughter.) [The hon. member then proceeded to allude to a transaction of Captain Daldy's, relative to buying a certain vessel in England.]—when Mr. Newman objected to the allusion. The Speaker ruled that Mr. Swanson was not in order. Mr. Swanson proceeded, Who was to be responsible if Captain Daldy were to send out a lot of inferior railway stock to this country ? If they had some competent man, such as Mr. Vickery for this purpose, thay could have tome aonfidence. He had heard the whole of this transaction described as a series of dodges, or "working the oracle." He considered Captain Daldy was not a man of honor, after breaking the promise he had so deliberately made in that Council Mr. Gallaugher seconded the motion. He believed every member there was surprised at this transaction. The commission would probably amount to £IOOO ayear, in consequence of tho great amount of/ railway stock, &c, which he would be engaged' to purchase. Mr. Coolahan could not allow such an act of maladministratin to pass, without raising his voice to protest agaiotit. e i iMr. Carceton contented, without entering into th merits of the question, that the Superintendent had tha legal power to act as he had done. He had already promised to vote for Captain Daldy, though he believed that gentleman would not do so for bim, if their posi lions were reversed. Mr. Foley was surprised at the last speaker saying the Superintendent had power to distribute broad-cast salaries as he thought fit. Mr. Carleton said certainly as it was a general, and not a special vote of the Council,; the Superintendent had that power. Mr Martin opposed the motion. The question was. had the Superintendent the right to make such appointment or not ? He thought he had. He did not know Captain Daldy. He did not think he ought to have taken the position in the way in which he did. But the Superintendent had a perfect right to appoint him. Mr. George thought Captain Daldy a very good a°-ent and they had better not meddle with the Superintendent's appointment. Mr Wynn said he wished to say a few words relative to what had fallen from the hon. members who sat opposite (Mr. Martin). He conceived he had quite mistaken the purport of the motion which was not to impute any wrong to the Superintendent who had quite a right to make what appointmeti the thought fit, and ho should much regret to see the Council taking any step either to review or impugn the actions of the Superintendent. He did not think that if the hon. member read the address over again carefully he would find contained in it the si: cutest attempt or desire to cast censure on the Supe-ititen-dent for making the appointment. The hon. member for Newton was quite right in the assertion he had made that they had no business to intrench on the powers of the Superintendent. In this instance, however the Superintendent had invited them to do so, by zending down to the Council his proposal for introducing what he termed a continued stream of immigration into the country, and in which scheme the appointment of Captain Daldy was included. In this message the Council had been requested to sanction the employment of Captain Daldy. The question having come under discussion, he . (the speaker) had taken what he considered at the time the best cmse to assist them out of the dilemma, although hon. members in the House took an opposite view of his action in the matter. When he saw a motion brought forward, and on the eve of being passed, which would be tantamount to a want of confidence, he had suggested to Mr. May the advisability of a connt out, which he considered was quite a fair and legitimate course of action under the circumstances. He wished now to make a few remarks relative to the real merits of the question. The vote of censure was not directed in any way at the Superintendent, but at Captain Daldy, in relation to his public actions. Captain Daldy had several times told the Counci', both in the House and out of it, thac ho would accept of no appointment without the express sanction of the Council. He had failed to obtain that sanction, and then what did he do? Why, immediately accept the appointment. The time of the Council had not, he considered, as had been stated by some hon. gentlemen, been unnecessarily wasted in discoursing this matter. Such, he conceived, could never be the case in bringing under disenssion public men and their actions. The Provincial Treasurer had told them that ho had refused to answer a question when put to him by the Select Committee, for fear of criminating himself. He surely could not mean the"assert : .on, as tho question was a very simple one. Everybody was aware that Captain Daldy had not received the sanction of the Council to his appointment. Then what necessity could there be for any such subterfuge relative to it". Another matter he had to refer to and that was to the extraordinary absence of these items in the Estimates ; and had it not been for the vigilance of Mr. Foley, the hon. member for the Pensioner's Settlements, they never would, in all probability, have received any information respecting them. The' hon. member for Newton had very correctly told them that they had been wrong in voting such a large sum as £40,000 for the purpose of immigration in a lump sum and without any restrictions attached to it, respecting the manner in which it was to be applied. He, as one of the principal movers in the matter, at once admitted his error and the justness of Mr. Carleton's rebuke in extenuation. However, he would now say that he had done it out of the exuberance of his feelings at tl>e time, with a full and perfect confi- ■ dence in the Government, not for a moment supposing

that Captaiu Daldy would put a salary of £4OO a year into his own pocket, to be abstracted from this amount. It was a monstrous thing to spend money in this manner, in quite a different way to what was intended, and then to give no inform uion whatever relative to its expenditure. This motion was not, he would repeat, a censure ou the Government for offering Captain Daldy the appointment, but upon that gentleman for having accepted it. If the Government had acted as they should have done in this matter, they would have made the appointment, as they had a perfect right to do, without consulting the Council at all about it. Had this course been pursued, he (the speaker) would have been found there that evening supporting the vote instead of opposing it. He did not in any way question the abilities of Captain Daldy to fulfil the appointment. He knew nothing whatever about his abilities, and considered that a matter upon which the Government were alone the sole judges. What he did complain about, however, was their being asked to sanction the appointment, and, when they had refused to do so, their opinion being at once ignored and set aside. He was not aware whether hon. members had read a very ex'raordinary correspondence lately printed, which Had taken place between the Superintendent and Captain Daldy, relative to that gentleman's appointment. It was, however, remarkable iu the extreme. In the first letter the Superintendent informs Captain Daldy of his appointment, and then goes on to explain to him the nature of the servi«es that will be required from him by the Government. Then comes the most astonishing part of the whole—finishes up by telling him of the great pleasure the fact of his having accepted the appointment had afforded the Government ; did any one ever hear of a more extraordinary document than this, which at the same time notified an .'appointment and expressed satisfaction at the appointment having been accepted. Then again the letter informs Captain Daldy that a portion of his duties will be the issue of special land orders, whilst in a letter sent at the same time to the Colonial Agents, Messrs. Ridgway and Sons, they were informed that it was not considered desirable to issue any special land order*, except in extreme cases. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) What then, ho would ask them, was to be understood from this ? The manner in which Captain Daldy had received his degree of preferment had also been somewhat lemarkable. First of all, ho was called Agent in Britain, then called Special Agent, and lastly, Agent General. When Mr. Daldy had first commenced his career in that house, he had come there merely as Clerk to the Superintendent, then he was appointed Secretary, and then not satisfied with this distinction, Provincial Treasurer and all sorts of other things ; besides, a word or two might also he said respecting the cool request that had been made to Messrs. Ridgway and Sons, who had always held the appointment of agents for the colony, and had always, as far as he could understand, shown themselves to be diligent, honest, and upright, in that capacity. All of a sudden, however, it appeared that they had been supplanted, and a gentleman goes home from here to London, who they are told will in future act as Agent-General for the Colonies. [Mr. Newman here got up and walked over to where Mr. Carleton and several other gentlemen were seated, and commenced whispering to them. Mr. Wynn having waited till he had retaken his seat,] remarked«that he thought it was very discourteous of members of the Government to go twaddling about the House, to the interruption of members, more especially when he was addressing himself on a purely Government question ; the hon. member bad been taken to task for the very selfsame thing a few days ago, by his friend Mr. O'Neill, and lie should have thought that the broad hint given to him (Mr. Newman) would have had the desired effect. He hoped this would be the last time that he should have occasion to call his attention to the subject. It did not appear to the Council that the late agents were in any way wanting in their duty. All that they heard at all about the matter was that they had been supplanted by Captain Daldy, who immediately issues a manifesto at honie, proclaiming that he has been appointed Agent-General. Messrs. Ridgway are informed that they can go on issuing land orders, but of course that is tantamount to nothing, as ev«ry body will naturally go to Capt. Daldy, the Agent General. What, he would aik, could be the feelings of the Messrs. Ridgway, who in the same letter informing them that they had been superseded, are coolly requested to render Capt .Daldy every assistance in their power. Did any one ever hear of such a cool request ? He could not conceive a more deliberate insult being offered. The hon. member at the head of the Executive had, he believed, said that Capt. Daldy could use his own discretion in appointing agents'in Ireland and Scotland, at salaries of £IOO He would like to know what discretion there was allowed in the matter at all, when he was specifically told to appoint the agents. He did not see why England should have £4OO a year and I per cent, for their agent whilst Ireland and Scotland should only be allowed £IOO a year each and no per centage. There was one other matter to which he should also like to refer. When Capt. Daldy had reached England he found that he was unable to draw upon the Province except at a discount of something like 8 par cent., so that he was literally floored and unable to touch a penny ; the consoquence being that largo sums had to be sent home from Auckland. Any bank clerk could have told them if enquiry had been made that such would be the case ; but they had not thought fit to make this enquiry, because they had not wanted the affair to come to light. He thought the Council could come to no other decision save that of passing a vote of censure on Captain i aldy for the way in which he had acted in the whole of this matter. With the Government they had nothing whatever to do at present, until the Estimates came under discussion. Dr. Pollen entirely concurred in the address and in the course that the Council were now about to take. He did not deny that the Superintendent had power to act as he did in making this appointment ; but Capt. Daldy had acted in direct violation of his pledge that he would not accept of any appointment under Government without the sanction of that Council. A statement concerning this should have been mad* to the Council, as had been promised at the third reading of the Empowering Act. Dr. Pollen then quoted some moions which he had made on a former occasion, and which he said he considered were quite sufficient answers to those who said that that Coun dl ought to taken better care to sae how these appointments had been made. He knew that the amount of salary which Mr. Ridgway had received in his office of General Agent to this Government was an absurdly small one, so small that m one except an energetic man, who, like Mr. Ridgway, took an interest in the colony and had a passion for business would accept it. Everyone of these who had known him in England spoke highly of him, and of his fitness for the position that he had held. When Capt. Daldy went home he met with Mr. Ridgwav, and finding, he (Dr ; Pollen) supposed that the field was too small for the scope o! his power with the existence of Mr. Ridgway he quarrelled with him. Mr. Ridgway was now superseded by Capt. Daldy >s Gener.tl Emigration Agent. He must say that he considered this was a most ungrateful return on the part of tha Government of this Province to allow Mr. Ridgway without reason to be superseded by this new Agent-General. As there could be no doubt that this appointment had been made in direct defiance of the wishes of this Council, he thought that the Council would do no more than they ought to do in adopting this address. Mr. Harrop said that had Capt. Daldy openly said that he was going to England to obtain this appointment there would not, in his opinion have been a dissentient voico in that House; but it was the underhand way in which it had been done—the amount of mystery and concealment that annoyed them. The information which should have been imparted to members had not been so imparted. Also, why was not the appointment published in the Gazette as soon as it was made instead of after Capt, Daldy was a month at sea, when it was too late to call him back ? It was the duty of the Superintendent to have published it at once. Mr. Newman said that lidi. members had been travelling far beyond their power. He acquitted the hon. member (Mr. Swanson) from introducing this motion with the intention of retarding the business of the day : but he could not say the same of those members who had taken advantage of it to lose as much time as possible. Some of them stood up and began to talk against time in order to delay the business of the day as much as possible. The hon. member for the Pensioners' Settlements had occupied three-quarters of an hour in debating on this discussion, and he might have itated all that he did in better terms in ten minutes. It was the wish of Government to get through the Appropriation Bill before the adjonrnif these hon. members went on in this way tkey would bring on a stoppage of public works which would entail serious consequences. Dr. Pollen, in his speech, had evidently not wished to imply any censure on the Superintendent for making this appointment, but Mr. Coolahan was of a totally contrary opinion. He (Mr. Newman) was prepared to defend this appointment. He had had a good deal to do with the appointment being made, and in his opinion no man could bo better adapted for the appointmeut than he who hai it. He knew the province thoroughly, and he knew., from experience who and" what was required for it. A fresh agent should, he thought, be sent home about every four years, " booked up," so to speak, in the requirements of the Province. He would not defend

the remarks that had been made by Captain Daldy in this Council as to not accepting any appointment without the consent of this Council. He considered such a remark a very foolish one for Captain Daldy to make. But he would certainly defend his appointment. • Mr. Wtnn said that he considered that tho remark that had been made by Mr. Newman relative to his speaking against time, was not only unfair, but was a deliberate false accusation. Mr. J. O'Neill was rather astonished to hear the honorable member opposite accuse other members of retarding the business of the House. He would prove that it was he himself who had retarded the business of the country. Had he not brought down four bills, so badly prepared that after occupying a considerable portion of the time of the House, he had been obliged to ask leave to get them back again, to put them in a proper shape f He blamed the way in which the Estimates had been brought down. Why had not the reports of the heads of departments been sent down ? The whole business of the House had been retarded by tho perfect incompetency of the honorable momber opposite. Mr. Swanson said that he was not going to occupy their time, but he had a few words to say. He did not object to the conduct of the Superintentent in this matter, he rather liked Robert Graham, but this Captain Daldy had been to the Superintendent what the old man was to Sindbad the sailor. He weighed him down, and he was glad to get rid of him. Now he could. He did not complain of the Superintendent making the appointment, but he complained of Captain Daldy getting it, as he was not fit for it. The motion was then put and carried. The House then adjourned for three quarters of an hour. The Council resumed at about half-past 7 o'clock. The orders of the day having been called on. A MIS-STATEMENT. Mr. Carleton wished to correct a misstatement which had appeared in the Press yesterday, to the effect, that " he held the honorable member opposite for the Pensioner Settlements (Mr. Wynn) in the highest respect. He wished to say ha made no such statement one way or the other. THE PAYMENT OF DEBENTUBES BILL —SECOND READING. Mr. Newman moved the second reading. Dr. Pollen asked for explanation as to whether tho bill referred to two distinct payments or not ? Mr. Newman said he was not prepared to give a full explanation of that point. But clause 2 had beon left blank to provide for certain contingencies. Mr. Wynn askel for an intelligible explanation as to what this £45,000 was wanted for. If such explanation were given, he would not oppose the bill, but would second its second reading. Mr. Foley asked for some information as to what had been paid off of this loan, and what amount had been taken out of it ? Mr. Newman said the Bill itself gave all the information required. In 1856, it was arranged that £45,000 should bo taken up as a loan. Arrangements would now be made to take up and pay oft the debentures when they arrived at maturity. Dr. Pollen asked when that would be ? Mr. Newman said arrangements were made for the payment in May, 1885. It would make no difference to the Province if the time varied at which the debentures came to maturity. Mr. Cadman contended that it was of importance their coming due at different times. He wanted to know at what times they would become duo ? Mr. Ross said it was arranged that no interest should ba paid to the Bank until the money was paid. g|Mr. Kino had not tho lea «t doubt that the Government would consult the interests ot the Province. Mr. Newman explained that arrangements had been male with the banks to take up the debentures when they became duo, without charging any interest. The Council thou went into committee of the whole on the bill. Mr. J. O'Neill, Chairman of Committee, " On the i clause being read." Mr. Wynn moved that the clause be expunged. The debenture itself was payable on a certain day, and it was useless to assert this in the bill." Mr. Newman would amend the clause, to suit the honorable member's views. Mr. Wynn said the first clause should be expunged altogether. Mr. Foley was surprised the hon. member had not come down prepare! with the Jknowledge when it became due. He should move that progress be reported. Dr. Pollen said, it was usual for hon. members of the Executive to come down prepared with all requisite knowledge for the information of the Council, yet the Provincial Treasurer could not say when these debentures became due. It was best to grant the hon. member time to inform himself on the question. Mr. Newman stid the preamble of the bill explained its object. It was advisable to pay off their debentures as soon as possible, as the rate of interest was high. The earliest possible time for that was May 1865. He thought that it would meet the views of the Council by passing the second reading. Mr. Wtnn asked if it was proposed to extend the time beyond May. Mr. Newman said it was proposed to fill the blank with Ist of May. Mr. Wynn asked if the hon. member had taken the trouble to get the nscessary information connected with it. Mr. Newman said : No, he had not. The Chairman : Speak to the question of reporting progress. Mi Wynn shouid object to report progress. Here was a bill of only two clauses, and there was no progress made. Dr. Pollen thought the better way would be to allow the hon. member (Mr. Newman) time to get the necessary information about it. At present they did mot know anything about it. Mr. Wynn withdrew his opposition. Mr. Newman believed this was a perfect Bill. He was quite open to any suggestion of improvement. If further information was required, he was quite willing to concur with she motion of Dr. Pollen. (Mr. Wynn : It is your own motion.) Tha Committee were now as responsible for the Bill as himself. They were sitting for that purpose. If any errors were discovered before the third reading, he would be quite willing to have them corrected. Mr. Wtnn said : He was astounded at the course adopted by the hon. member, who now repudiated his own motion. He had himself, of his own accord, proposed to report progress, and now he wished to give it up. Mr. Bockland said, he thought it a matttr of great importance that the Bill should be gone on with. It was most painful to see the hon. member' (Mr. Newman) quite unprepared to give the information sought for, he should get :he necessary assistance if he found himself unable to attend to it himself. Mr. Newman said : He was no lawyer, and iudging from the displays that he had lately seen, he was glad he was not. But he had prepared the bill as well as he could, and only regretted that he had not the legal assistance desired. Mr, Wynn said the hon. member had alluded to himself. He was glad he was no preacher. (Loud cries " Order, order.") Mr. George rose to order. Mr. Newman withdrew any expressions which might have given offence. Mr. Swanson said he was surprised at such a simple question giving rise to so much discussion. It appeared the Province owed £45,000 on Ist of May, 1865, What could be easier than to consent to pay it when it became due ? Mr. Wynn contended that it was quite unnecessary to fix a day on which the payment should be made. The clause was quite unnecessary. Mr. Bockland said : The legal adviser had thought the clause nec-ssary, then why should the Council ob- # ject to it ? It could do no harm. Mr. Foley opposed the motion. Mr. Newman replied. The first clause was then passed, with the preamble, as also the second clause, that " first" be inserted in the blank day of May, 1865. The House having resumed, The Bill was reported without amendment. Mr. Newman moved that the Bill be read a third time en Friday next. Motion put and carried. report of committee on the site of the supreme court house. Mr. King moved that it be made an order of the day for to-morrow. The motion was carried. THE ESTIMATES. Mr. King, in opening the adjourned debate on the question—" That the Appropriation Bill be now read the second time," said the honorable member (Mr. Newman) had acknowledged that the country was in peculiar difficulties. And it was better to adopt the old plan, and give the Superintendent the whole control of the expenditure. He was sure no member would be found there to support that view but himself. With respect to the first item of £II,OOO, were no salaries to be met by that ? Mr. Newman : None. All the salaries have been provided for. Mr. King was glad to hear it. Then the money spent in cattle had all gone out of the colony. If the Treasurer had shewn iuereassd population and expons

and crops, it might have been a sign of prosperity ; but it was not so with the money spent in military expenses. As to the land for sale he knew large lots were in the hands of the Government perfectly useless. It would be a sin to induce immigrants to come here to settle on such land. He contended there was not sufficient fair good land to meet the wants of the people. Some of the items in the Estimates he had no doubt would be realized, as the Duties on Spirits, but it would be better to have less public houses, and not so mueh crime. He thought he could satisfy that House that the Estimate was out by manv thousands. Money was set down as cash revenue which was tn be gained from the sale of the Commodore's lions-, in Shortland-street, and there was money entered as Military Prisoners— Mr. Newman : That is an arrangement with the Imperial Government by which the Provincial Government has supplied military prisoners with food, &c. Mr. Kino : That is very different then from the old arrangement, by which the Imperial Government found the guard and expenses, and the Provincial Government found the prisons. Now what was the opinion of others, as to the position ? that Auckland was a bad neighbour ; that her streets wore like a fair ; all the shops full, and the people making their fortunes by the loan. Now he only mentioned this to show the opinion they had of Auckland, in Nelson, Otago, and Canterbury. Now the people of this Province thought differently. They were all desirous of a speedy and permanent peace. But these considerations would shew the difficult position in which Auckland would be placed. The revenue was here estimated at £111,220, which he totally denied as being likely to be raised. The expenditure was greatly increased. If hon. members would come down and state the most useful and necessary expenses, the Council would not withhold the money required. He believed had not the Loan Bill been passed at the beginning of the session, it never would have been passed at all. The £2,572 set down for surveying land for locating emigrants, was far too small, and other items were incorrect. In the Waste Lands Office, there were useless offices, such as the Custodian of Plans, and in the Roads and Works Office, instead of reduction, they increased by £3lO. In the police there was also increase ; he had no doubt that was necessary. He could remember the time when not one constable was necessary in Auckland, but doors could then be left unlocked in perfect security. The Hospital improvements formerly recommended had never been done to the present day, and he had letters in his possession which disclosed a disgraceful state of things there. In the lunatic asylum he was surprised at a reduction of £llß ; the building was going on and in the course of a short time a suitable place would be ready. There was an increase at the harbours of Manukan, Kaipara, Russell, &c. There was no less than £20,000 excess of expenditure over last year. In miscellaneous item« there is a decrease, but no provision had been made for the Provincial Solicitor. He invited the serious consideration of the Council to these items. He believed the whole bill should bo re-cast. The had now only six sitting days before they must adjourn for the meeting of the Assembly. Some gentlemen had seats in both Houses, but they could attend to both duties at once. They were all willing to provide for the necessary expenses of the Superintendent (hear, hear), but many of these items wou'd excite considerable discussion. He for one would not accept this as revenue, and would not believe that we could meet such expenditure. He would w.irn the House to keep the expenditure as low as possible. The hon. member (Mr. Carleton) said the other night that if he had absolute power to-morrow he should not know what to do. Mr. CablwtvN said he meant in the General Government. Mr. King —Well, it amounted to the same thing. He also said he would give the Superintendent unlimited power over the purse. Mr. C\rleton —I did not say that. Mr. IWg said he was not the man, when the colony was in difficulties, to lie down and give it up ; but he should always be ready to give a helping hand, and do his best to get the colony out of such difficulties. Dr. Pollen said he should not be very far out if he were to characterise these as electioneering estimates. They were like the promises and professions that were heard on the hustings. But upon careful consideration he was inclined to believe that these promises and professions were likely to be shadowy, or that they were so in reality. He was always inclined to look at the bright side of things; but he could not see the prosperity of the province which was pointed by Mr. Newman in his speech the other day. He looked in vain for the facts with which Treasurers in tltat Council were accustomed to.establish their statements. Unsupported by any documents, he (Mr. Newman) asked the members of this Council to confide in him, to accept his numerical statements on his unsupported authority. He could not agree either in the remarks that had been made by the Treasurer about- the benefits to be derived from the money borrowed. He had great doubts of the good effects of borrowing. Mr. WrxN here rose to order. He considered that .when a gentleman who was so thoroughly acquainted with what he was speaking about as Dr. Pollen was, was saying that some representative of the Government ought to be in the house to hear the remarks and to profit by them. Mr. Carleton said that this was not a point of order. [The hon. member then left the Council chamber.] Mr. Wtnn said that he wa» glad to see the hon. member leaving the house. He would now move, as there was nobody occupying the Treasury bsnehes, that the house should adjourn;, Mr. Buckxand begged to second the motion. He considered it was an insult to the whole House to leave it thus without any representative of the Government. Mr. Cheesem\n said that the hon. gentleman might have been necessitated to leave the House for a short time. (A. laugh.) _ [Mr. Newman here returned to the Council Chamber.] Mr. Wynn would like to know what had drawn the Treasurer from the House. Ho was very fond of leaving the Chamber when he knew a home thrust was coming. Mr. Newman said that he was never very long absent from the Council Chamber, and as the gentleman who wasspcaking at the time he left, was not generally very hurried in his delivery, and as he was very well reported in his own paper, he thought he would not lose much by being absent, as he could see all he said in to-morrow's paper. Dr. Pollen here said that thii observation was one of those " small impertinences" which 'too often fell from the honj member. He wished to inform the gentleman that he wa* not in way connected with any paper, and he was at a loss to know to what he referred by speaking of " his own paper." He had endeavored to follow up the confused account of the Treasurer about the surplus revenue of £II,OOO. The hon. member (Mr. Newman) might have known that no such amount as three-eighths of the customs revenue was appropriated at all. If the general debt were distributed over the colony, Auckland's share would be much greater than any other part, as it had received greater benefits, and this would tend to lessen the actual revenue very much, and the share of customs revenue would bo greatly reduced. Also no such sum as £IO,OOO would be realised by the sale of lands during the next twelve months. He hoped * the Council would take these matters into consideration, they would find a series of items lower down in the estimates which appeared very curious, and he would like to know where the money due from Harbour trust was to come from. A sum of £12,000 had been put down, but he could not understand where it it was to come from. Mr. Newman said possibly it would not be required as was the case with the amount set down last year. Dr. Pollen wanted to know where it was to come from supposing it was wanted, also that £16,000 placed as land revenue. The Council had, however, already pretty fully given its opinion on that matter. Estimates, he considered, a waste of time, without knowing whether they will have the means to carry them out. They would see that the police expenditure had very greatly increased, also that requisite for prisons; and he thought it would be much better to defer the consideration of the estimates until after the meeting of the General Assembly. He was not a bit afraid oflt thrown in his teeth that he was obstructing publie busi :ess by so doing. He that, so far from his being instrumental i Q doing this, it wonldbe found an acmal saving of time that the consideration of the estimates should be deferred, as ho proposed. On the question being then put that the bill be read & second time, Mr. Wt.tn said that as he proposed to oocupy the House for an hour at least on this question, he would propose that the debate be now adjourned, as it was a lata hour in the evening, and honorable members appeared somewhat fagged. The question was put and carried witbout division. Mr. Gallaugher, before the adjournment of the House, wished to withdraw notice of motion No. 12, standing in his name, in order that it might not be printed on the notice paper. Leave granted. The House then adjourned at ten minutes to ten o'clock until the usual hour this day. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. J. o'Nbill to move, "That an address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, asking him to send down to this Council the several reports

of the heads of departments relative to the requirements of the respective departments of the Provincial Government." Mr. A. O'Neill to move, "That an address be presented to his Honor the Supe intendent, requesting him to erect a jetty on the east bank of Shoal Bay, from the point where the road runs directly iato the interior, the amount to bo deducted from the item £4OO on the estimates for 'North Shore Jetties for Steam Service.'" Mr. Foley to move, " That an address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to place on the estimates a sudicient sum of money for a pilot and boatman for the port of Tauranga." Mr. Wtxn to move, " That the peti'ion of William Band bs referred to the Private Grievance Cj:u mittee." Mr. Cadman to move, " That the petition of William Ladder be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Mr. Ross to move, " That the petition of Donal I McMillan be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Mr. Kino to move, " That the petition of Robert Hasmill be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Mr. Carleton to move, "That the second reading of the Waterworks Bill be an order of the day for Friday next." Mr. Carleton to move. " An address to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting a return of all sums paid to or charged by the late Provincial Law Offi er on account of Government private bills, distinguishin.: bills opposed, if any, from bills unopposed, together with copy of the account rendered ; of all sums, if any, paid to the present Law Officer for such or similar services, and of all sums paid, since the accession of his Honor to office, to any other professional person for such or similar services ; distinguishing throughout charges made for Parliamentary agency in carrying bills through the Houses of the General Assembly, charges for other work done, an 1 General Assembly fees " Mr. Cadman, on a future day, to move the following resolutions r—" Resolved, that as the period of the duration of the present Provincial Council now approaches to a close, it is desirable that the new election of Superintendent and of members of Council should be completed in sufficient time to enable tho Superintendent to make the necessary preparations for meeting the Council in its session in the month of October." "Resolved, that in the opinion of this Council tho new elections ought to be completed not later than tho month of June, 1865, and that, with this view, the Provincial Council ought to be dissolved in tho month of March proximo." " Resolved, that a respectful adlress be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, transmitting the foregoing resolutions, and praying that he . will concur with this Council in requesting his Excellency the Governor to dissolve the Prorincial Council accordingly." Mr. Kixg to move, " That an adlress be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to forward to this Council a return showing tho amount of the liabilities of the Provincial Government, upon the 30th September, 1864." Mr. Swakson to move, " That Mr. Speaker be requested to forward to Captain Daldy a copy of the address adopted by this House on thi 2id of November, 1564, respecing the appointment of C'ptai'l Daldy as emigration agent and special agent for this province." Mr. Wtnn to ask leave " To bring in a bill to amend the Empowering Act, 1864." * Mr. Wtsn to ask leave "To bring in » bill to empower the Auckland Gas Company (Limited) to open the streets of Auckland and lay pipes thciein, and for other purposes." FRIDAY. Mr. Cadman to move," That his Honor's Message No. 46, respecting Responsible Government, be taken into consideration." ON A FUTURE DAY. Mr. Howe to move. " That, in the opinion of this Council, it is expedient and desirable that the volunteer and militia companies who have been engaged in actu ti service during the present insurrection in this province should be entitled to the privileges granted in th<s military settlers' clause of the Auckland Wasto Lands Act, 1858." ORDERS OF THE DAY. Report of Committee on the Site of the Supreme Court-house—to be considered. FRIDAY. Weeds and Watercourses Bill—in Committee. Waterworks APP ro P l '' at i orl Bill—second reading. The Payment of Debentures Bill—third reading. Adjourned debate on the quostion, " That the Appropriation Bill be now read the second time."