HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealander, Volume XVII, Issue 1591, 17 July 1861, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

TUESDAY, JULY 16th, 1861. The NATIVE MINISTER laid on the table «w of a letter addressed to His Excellency by the Her. i. Buddie on the " present crisis;" also papers relating » the taking away of a half-caste child. Mr. FOX laid 0:1 the table continuation of relating to the Auckland Gaol and Stockade. - |_ Mr. 11. GRAHAM, on moving "That Mr. Kn<x» and Mr. C. J. Taylor be added to the Committee i« Private Grievances," remarked that one of the members of the Committee had asked to have his m» withdrawn from it,—and in order to make the W"*j mittee fuller he desired that Mr. C. J. Taylor eW» be added, as that hon. member from his o m <jiai » perience understood many of the land cases, and *» be therefore found very useful upon the Commutec, had also to propose that Mr. Rhodes be added. » thought the House could have 110 objection to snen ■ addition being made. , fall Mr. C. W. RICHMOND asked whether M* number was already on the Private Grievance mittee. nmefflThe SPEAKER replied there were only ***?£ bers, be had been under the impression na* Dillon Bell had withdrawn from that CoaimitteMr, BELL explained that there was , SOl " e h^Ltf work done in which he had been en-aged as» n»" of that Committee, and which he desired to He thought he would be able to bring: up tte A£, on Friday ; and suggested to the hon. "JSgg; withdraw his present motion, and move it ™.iam When he (Mr. Bell) had brought the report; «. cases on hand, he himself would a^ra^S Mr. GRAHAM: Bv permission of the House convcnientjilan might be adopted : his mot 0 be put, on the understanding that Mr. Bell »oaiu tire from the Committee on Friday next. Motion carried. _ .jfnrle' rt ! Mr. CRACROFT WILSON. C.8., {JjgJ to bring in a Bill to provide for the making an 1 taining fences. r Bill received, read a first time, orderedl to 1 and to be read a second time this day WW « I Mr. JOLLIE moved that a respectful » g g I presented to His Excellency the Governor ■ of the letter addressed to him by » 18 * 00 I Bishop of New Zealand and other 1 4th instant, relating to the position of I Agreed to. „-,mnilcne* K Mr. JOLLIE moved that the ** tween His Lordship the Bishop of >cw the honorable the Colonial laid *£ ing to the Natives of New Zealand aheady J & table of this House, be printed, to S em f •* te d » " part of that correspondence as communiw House of Representatives last session. Agreed to. _ .„ t ro&O^L Mr. WELD gave fnotice for a Select cyjgg investigate the charge made against me Treasurer by Dr. Featherston. nerrn issionof* Mr. FOX said that he requested pM" House to make a statement as to tnciw tbejwf proposed by the Government, and aLsc' ° JiJ* of more explicitly declaring their b »d* tions on the Native question. int tkj doubt gathered from previous principal feature of the policy of tne Mm its desire that, before a resort to arms^s^^^j

' "„«,rtical character than any hitherto undertaken inore ,nr resorted to. Thcro was much misundersho aW & e tho Natives and ourselves; on our standing ». rao charactcr 0 f the King movement; P art ♦. and the extent to which it is participated in its , various tribes and subdivisions of tribes; on lr • „c to the object we have in view in insisting on th Ss?on to the Queen's supremacy. The first aim jnbmisstou t tQ be tho romoval of theso ofour i misunderstandings, and before wo could do roUla i e mu"t have the confidence of tho Natives. lh r l3 V The Government proposed that, as an (He Sl condition of securing their confidence, " .rmnld be distinctly assured that for a they «t least all land purchasing should li(nC (Hear) The fundamental cause of all our fCaSC ' t difficulties was jealousv on the subject of land; P v;ons that they were going to be unjustly dealt 6l Tin respect of them. This feelin* must be removed v cost before we could hope that we should iuthc Natives to listen to us. All land buying dUCC them must cease, till such time as some tribunal fr °M be established for the investigation of Native m hnuld possess the confidence of both races. There t be " n cml for cver t0 what th ° Nativcs CfUl °' l about land;" the continual irritation which ■ted under the present system. The only exception "nosed by the Government in this particular, would Sin few ncociations now pending and partly com]L] of no great magnitude, and which in no way iu,l'interfere withthc general principle. As to the Tanicter of the tribunals to beestablishcd.it would be mature to discuss that. A Committee of this House haa at present sitting which might throw some light t the subject; but they must be so framed by joint nsultiition between the Natives and ourselves as C °i!iht enable them to embody the wishes of both races. There was no doubt that when such tribunals were blished t | )oy wou i,l sell all the land we could desire. V Henata, one of the most intelligent of them said -When some equitable system shall have been agreed between us. then nil the tribes that wish t/ sell will sell." One result of the establishment of such tribunals would bo to enable us «t once to reduce, and at no remote period . abolish, the land-purchase department. It might be necessary to keep a portion of it on foot to wind up its transactions and transfer its business to the intended tribunals. But it would otherwise be no longer of use, and might be put aside. The existence of theso tribunals might also probably lead the way to direct sale to individuals, should such a system be considered expedient. For with a title thoroughly sifted by them there would be no dancer in allowing tho Natives to sell their lands to whomsoever they nleased. Another great advantage to which it might lead was the interdiction by Government of all lighting among the Native-; themselves on the subject of land. (Hear.) He wits aware that Lord Carnarvon had objected to this sort of interference by Government some time ago ; but the establishment of such tribunals -as he had referred to would entirely alter the case, and probably Her Majesty's Government would alter their opinion. It was certain that the Natives themselves would approve it, if all jealousy about our seizing their lands were removed. Another point, on which the late Native Minister had expressed much anxiety, was the right to make Roads over Native territory. On this head, he (Mr. Fox), believed that if we camo to a satisfactory understanding on the other points adverted to there would be little difficulty. At present they objected to roads because they believed that they were made to enable us to take their lands, and to carry the Queen's big guns upon. But if the jealousy about land were removed, and all probability of military aggression had ceased, he believed, and was confirmed in that belief by high authorities, that no difficulty would exist on this subject; particularly if* it was explained to them that this prerogative of the Crown would only be exercised on fair payment being made for the land taken for the purpose, and that the construction of roads would involve the outlay of large sums of money of which they would be to a great extent the recipients. (Hear, hear.) But beyond all this we must offer them political Institutions, for their own self-government, based as fur as possible on those already existing among them, much of which was very analagous to the machinery of Government existing amongst our Saxon ancestors, particularly the Runanga, to which be looked as the great means of their political connexion with us. The Institutions of Government so established should be worked under European Agency, but as far as possible, by the Natives themselves. In all this, Mr. Fox continued, there is little that has not been proposed by others—perhaps, there is nothing new. But what is new is the manner in which wc propose to bn»"-the subject before the Natives. We do not be,.tlut f*i negotiations carried on by a brief and dry abstract on paper, nor by the agency of some subordinate official. (Hear.) What His Excellency's advisers will suggest is, that the Government of the Colony should meet the Natives face to face, discuss the whole question at large, explain our views,, remove their objections, and thus establish that confidence which they have never yet reposed in us, but which must be secured if we are to do any good. (Hear, hear) He believed that His Excellency would not object to give a very large discretion to his Native Minister in carrying on such negotiations, and he hail little doubt, nay the Ministry was encouraged to believe by all whose opinion was of weight, that their was the best reason to iook for a satisfactory result for such a course (hear). As regarded the insurgent Natives, (rebels as some called them, enemies as they were styled by others') the late Colonial Secretary had expressed a hope that he would be very explicit. He should be so; quite as explicit as the late Government had been, or as any Government could be. It was certain that for many weeks no military operations could be curried on agaiibt them. The season of the year prohibited that. In the meantime the Government proposed to leave them pretty much on one side, satisfied that if the great bulk of the natives who had been in a state of insurgency, came to terms, the others would not long holdout; nay, he had th« most confident hopes that they would accept, and fulfil to their utmost, the terms of peace and submission offered by the Governor Should, however, the negotiations with the natives generally tail. His Excellency's advisers were unani- I mous in their intention to advise him that submission must be enforced by arms, not by a feeble and vaccilatwg war, but by one prosecuted with energy and vigour ; terminated, not by any premature and ignominious peace, but only on such terms as were consistent with the honour of the British name and the permanent pacifieation of the country (hear, hear). Mr. Fox would now advert very briefly to the intentions of the Government in other matters. They did not propose any farther adjournment, but were prepared to go on at once with the business on j£e table of the House (hear, hear). By next Tuesday his colleague, the Colonial Treasurer expected to be able, to make bis financial statement, and lay the estimates on the table. In the meantime there were several bills before them, which would probably not give rise to much discussion, and with which the Government proposed to proceed. Very few measures would be introduced by it, but among them would be one to repeal the New Provinces Act, so far as to prevent the creation of any more new Provinces (hear), but of course maintaining the existing machinery for those already created (hear. hear). On the subject of re-annexation the Government was not prepared to speak positively, but was inclined to put the matter into such a shape as would leave the new Provinces to decide for themselves in the. matter (near). The Government would also be prepared to introduce some measure for the prevention of unauthorized expenditure by the Provincial Governments, out not on the principle contained in the Bills proposed by the late Government, which were an attempt to grasp more power for the General Government at the cost of the Provinces (hear). They would also introduce a Bill to restore those sixths of the Land Revenue which, in ,n rect violation of the compact of 1850, had m IBSB been deducted from the Provincial land funds, ■the Government would stand to that compact between the Northern and Middle Islands, so long as the latter did not infringe it; but they regarded the Act of 1858 as a direct infringement, and they considered that the Northern Provinces ought to be restored to their original positions (hear, hear). The Bankruptcy Bill of BTO clauses, ] a id on the table, they would not proceed w 'm, but would re-introduce the Debtor and Creditor's Act of a previous Session. The Arms' Hill would have woe renewed; and if the House decided against the continuance of the District Courts, the Resident Magistrate's Court Extension Act, would have to be re-enacted (bear). It would bo the endeavour of this Government to establish the most cordial relations with "j* rovi »cial Governments (hear.hcar). They regarded JlTfgovernments as the principal meansprovided by ie fts.fistitution Act for developing the resources of the im u ar ' l,car )- Thcv BhonW not he found rushing uto what bad been called" ultra-provincialism, hut they and , tt ' nmnctl t0 support the Provinces in the full bvtW? exm '' S(; of the powers bestowed on them thci> UStitUtion Act ; and tnat thev would make ' lt Prnv; to . n f ant "»'» to co-operate with and assist the tions r Auf, ""' iti, ' s '" the exercise of their funcirive'ti ( '° ll(, lusion he trusted that the House would Gover, Vm Ministrv fair play (hear. hear). The late motion'T 1 m tho coursc of *o»* speeches on the Mini.str WUI " ° f connilcilce declared that if a new ODnositi 7 Wm r lonnC(l 'hev would not offer any factious and hr■ i . h ° !)C ' l to Bce tlmt P lcd S e redeemed, ment \, i that thc hoasi > would give the Govern(laudeh ' *s vv ° n M Wollla smirc its fulfilment.

Mr. CARLETON asked Mr. Fox what the purpose of the Government was relative to the pre-emption Land Claims. Mr. FOX: Thc attention of the Government had not been drawn to that subject yet —hut he might venture to inform the hon. member that they would be inclined to give a most liberal consideration to those claims. Mr. STAFFORD asked whether two gentlemen of flic Ministry, who ate Superintendents of Provinces, were still acting in that capacity—or whether they intended to retain thc two offices. Mr. FOX would give the same reply to that question that thc hon. member for Nelson City gave when he himself was similarly situated on a former occasion. The hon. gentlemen would continue to hold their offices till tho end of the present session—and at tho close they would be at libertv to consider whether they should resign one or tho other office. Mr. BELL as Chairman of the Committee apologized for not being ready with tho Report of the Select Committee on Military Defence—and asked for an extension of time for another fortnight. Granted. Mr. BRANDON as'<cd for an extension of time to bring up the Report of the Select Committee on the Laud Registry Amendment, and thc Survey Correction Bills. Mr. O'NEILL objected to the length of time: thc report might be laid on the table within a week, and he thought that ought to serve thc hon. member. Granted. The second reading of Prevention of Importation of Diseased Cattle Dill was made an order for the next day. Mr. READER WOOD moved the second reading of thc New Zealand Hank Bill. Mr. FIRTH said he did not know exactly how tho uintter stood, as he had been in charge of the Bill. .Mr. WOOD had been speaking with that hon. member and the member for City of Auckland East a lew minutes before and understood it was their wish that he (Mr. Wood) should move the second reading. Mr. RUSSELL did not so understand it. Mr. FIRTH had not heard such a thing mentioned. Mr. WOOD : Perhaps the bou. gentlemen would conduct the Bill through the Committee. Mr FIRTH was popared to go on with the Bill. Bill read a second time and ordered to be committed presently. Mr. WILLIAMSON moved the second reading of the Bank of New Pouth Wales Rill. The hon. member was proceeding to speak to the question, when be was interrupted by Mr. STAFFORD, who observed that, it was the New Zealand Rank Bill that was heforc the House (laughter)- Mr. WILLIAMSON thought the hon. memb-r's mind was a little confused to-day in his new position (hear, hear); he had not observed that thc last motion had been put to the House Mr. Williamson having shown that the Bill had gone through a careful consideration in the Select Committee, moved its second reading. Mr. W. C. RICHMOND -aid that the Government were supposed to watch such bills as the present for the interest of th» public, and the circumstance of two private bills being moved in such rapid succession by members of the Government had caused his hon. friend thc member for Nelson, to make the mistake which he had when the lion, member for Auckland was speaking. Bill read a second time. Mr. WILLIAMSON then stated that there ap. pcr.red to be some objection to a member of the Government proceeding with this bill, he had transferred the charge to his hon. friend on his le't, Mr. Brandon. Mr. BRANDON moved that the bill be committed presently. —Agreed to Mr. BELL moved thc second reading of the Otago and Southland Public Debt Rill. —Bill read a second time, Mr. BELL moved that ir be committed presently. Agreed to. Mr. FOX moved that the Registration of Electors Act Amendment Bill which was an order of the day for further consideration in Committee, ami the Native Crown Titles Bill, down for second reading be postponed till to-morrow. Mr. FOX asked the Members of the late Government whether they intended to take charge of those, Government Bills introduced by themselves. Mr. STAFFORD replied that the Bills were handed over to the controul of the present Government ; reserved to himself the right as an individual Member to take his own course if he found it necessary. Mr. SAUNDERS had suggested alterations to the late Government with regard to these Bills, which they bad agreed to consider, and he desired to know if the new Government would promise to do the same. Mr. FOX suggested that the hon. member for Waimea would favour him with the alterations he would like to have made. Motion agreed to. Mr. FOX moved that the Public Expenditure Controul Bill, and the Provincial Audit Bill, second reading, be discharged from thc order paper. Thc present Government intended to submit measures that would effect thc object of these Bills in a different way. Mr. RUSSELL suggested that these be kept on the paper as orders of the day till the proposed measures were readv. Mr. C. W. RICHMOND thought the hon. member of the. Government should give some date when ho would be prepared to submit these measures—or otherwise they might be postponed indefinitely. Mr. FOX would have them ready on this day week. Mr. STAFFORD moved that the second reading of the Lost Land Orders Bill be made the Ja.st order of the day, as the lion, member who took charge of this Bill was not present. Agreed to. On the motion of Mr. FOX the Naturalization Bill and the Resident Magistrate's Ordinance Bill were read a second time and ordered to be committed to-morrow. On the motion of Mr. FOX the order for the second reading of the Bankruptcy Bill was discharged. Mr EYES moved the second reading of the Naval and Military Settlers (Marl'oorovgh) Bill. Mr. ORMOXD wished the provisions of the Act to be extended to Hawke's Hay. The SPEAKER said it was not in order to make the alteration at. the present stage of thc Rill ; the hon. member could move the amendment when it was in committee. Bill read a second time. Mr. EVES move! that it be committed presently. Agreed to. Mr. FOX moved that the Civil Serviec.Supcranuation Act Amendment Bill hi postponed till to-morrow. On motion of Mr. SAUNDERS it was ordered to be printed, and Mr. FOX extended the lime of postponement till Friday. On motion of Mr. FOX the House went, into Committee of the whole on the New Zealand Rank Bill; Bank of New South Wales; the Otago and Southland Public Debt Apportionment Bill; and the Naval and Military Settlers' 'Marlborough) Bill. The Naval and Military Setilers' Bill was reported, without amendment,; read a third time —passed—and sent to the other House, praying concurrence therein. The Otago and Southland Bill; New Zealand Bank Bill; and the Rank of New South Wales Bill; were reported with amendments, which were severally ordered to be considered to-morrow. On motion of Mr. MANTELL (the Native Minister) the House adjourned.