Wednesday, April 2, 1856.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume XV, Issue 2, 5 April 1856, Page 2

Wednesday, April 2, 1856.

The Council met at five o'clock; the Speaker in the chair. All the members present but Messrs. Hough, Bush, Fearon, Barnicoat, "Wells, Cautley, and Lee. The Provincial Solicitor laid upon the table a copy of a correspondence between the Superintendent and Commissioner of Crown Lands, respecting the grant of a piece of land in Motupiko Valley to Mr. John Kerr, the said land leing part of the public reserves. COUNTRY ROADS BILL. Mr. Muller moved, That Message No. 19 of hia Honour the Superintendent, containing amendments in the Country Roads Bill, be taken into consideration, and that the Speaker do leave the chair. The Provincial Solicitor seconded the motion. Agreed to. The Council accordingly went into committee ; Mr. John Ward in the chair.

Message No. 19 read by the Clerk. The first amendments proposed in the Message were to expunge the words "and tenements" in clauses 4 and 5.

Dr. Monro thought that when alterations ■uch as those were submitted to the Council, some reason ought to be adduced for the change that was sought to be effected in a measure which had received the most careful consideration of the Council. But the particular question now before them had been the subject of close discussion, and it was only after many divisions that the Council had been able to pass the bill out of its hands ; and now the Superintendent had sent down the bill with amendments that would nearly bring it to its original shape, without a single argument having been adduced for so doing. He should be sorry to think that the Council would refuse to listen to reason, but until some reason had been given he should consider himself justified in adhering to the resolution which had been arrived at after so much protracted, and he might say painful, discussion. He would be glad to hear some explanation from the gentlemen who represented the Government in the Council, for he did not think that a Council of 24 members, who had given the bill their attentive consideration for many nights, ought, without some sufficient reason, to recede from what they had already done. The Provincial Solicitor said that the object of the proposed amendments was to restore the bill to its original shape. Several memorials on the subject had been submitted to the Superintendent, and it had been thought advisable to restore the bill to the state in which it was originally sent down. Mr. Saunders objected to the proposed amendments. Some persons might think he was inconsistent because he had formerly pointed out that it would be injudicious to tax buildings ; but by those amendments the tax would be taken off buildings, but would weigh heavier on other industrial improvements. He would much rather see the buildings taxed than to see a man taxed for industrial and agricultural improvements — for fencing his land, and for converting a plain of fern into a field of corn. The latter tax would tend greatly to impede the progress and prosperity of the settlement ; and he imagined that even if the amendments were adopted, buildings would still be liable to be taxed unless they were specially exempted, for the land that carried the buildings would be taxed. Dr. Renwick quite agreed with Mr. Saunders that the Superintendent's amendments amounted to nothing at all. It was always understood that the estimated value to sell of i land, included the buildings, &c, thereon. The Provincial Solicitor agreed that there had been an omission in the wording of the amendments, for the intention was to exclude buildings. However, if the Council agreed to the principle proposed, the Supertendent would send down a fresh message to meet the difficulty. Mr. Muller said that the object intended was certainly to exclude buildings. There was a strong feeling evinced throughout the country districts against the bill as it stood, and many petitions had been sent to the Superintendent on the subject ; and it was to endea- j your to make the bill more workable that the Superintendent had sent down the message proposing to exclude houses, barns, &c, from taxation. If the Council approved of the principle suggested, the grammatical alterations could easily be made. Mr. Saunders said, that if the Superintendent had wished to compromise the affair, it would have better suited both the country and the Council if he had left buildings to be taxed, and had exempted other industrial improvements.

Mr. Parker quoted the case of one of his constituents, who had been labouring for some time upon a piece of land, and had spent £100 improving it, although there was no house upon it. In England, a man was taxed according to his income ; but here, a man who had spent all his means in improving his land was taxed for that improvement. Such was the effect of the bill ; and it would be much the same if amended as just proposed. He did not believe the bill could be put in operation, for the feeling was very strong against it ; and when it was sent out, the Government ought to be prepared to take care of it, for the country would have nothing at all to do with it.

Dr. Monro said that the instance which had been quoted by Mr. Parker was a true specimen of the misapprehension which existed in the country on the subject. The constituent of the honourable member for Motueka who had laid out a6IOO upon his land, was supposed to be bo much the poorer for having laid out that money ; but did it not strike the Council that, if so, the money must have been laid out very injudiciously ? That might have fenced in the land, and converted fern into grass ; and although this constituent had expended iJIOO, still he had got value, and more than value for his money, by having his land converted from a wild into a reproductive state ; and perhaps it even brought in more than 10 per cent, on the money laid out. He must confess that the argument that had been adduced cut precisely in the opposite direction from what had been wished by the honourable member for Motueka. The tax on houses would fall heaviest upon the wealthy and luxurious, who. could best afford to pay the tax.

The Provincial Solicitor said that the argument about the tax on industry was a very fallacious one, for there were very few persons who had acquired property here who had not done so by their own exertions and industry. He would suppose the case of two persons, each poasessed of the same amount of land, and each of whom had saved ,£IOO. One of those persons spent his 56100 in improving his land, and the other one laid out his money in buying more land. Why should not both those persons be taxed alike? One person spent his time in improving the land, and another spent his time in trade, and saved money, which he invested in land. If they taxed the land thus bought, they taxed industry just as much as if they taxed houses and improvements.

Mr. Saunders said that it was amusing to Bee how fond some gentlemen were of lecturing the Council upon political economy, when industry had always been admitted to be the basis of capital ; and yet none of those gentlemen could make a speech upon the Roads Bill, and give tangible reasons why they should tax improvements. If a man laid out a sum of

money in land, and then spent in cultivating it, he benefited the settlement, and added to its prosperity ; but if, instead, he laid out that sSlOOin buying and monopolizing more land, and keeping it from the industrious man who would cultivate it, instead of contributing to the prosperity of the settlement he impeded its progress, by occupying and not using that land which was required for occupation and use. Government should rather tax a system that was injurious to the settlement, than tax a system on which the settlement wholly depended.

Mr. Robinson said that he was quite willing that buildings, and all other property, should be taxed, but he objected to the amendments, because it did not exclude from the tax other industrial improvements, for agricultural operations should not be impeded. He believed that it was the intention of the people in the country districts to petition the Superintendent not to assent to the bill as passed by the Council, so that it was likely to become a dead letter. He was also inclined to believe that there was scarcely a district in the whole province that would bring the bill into operation if they could prevent it. The question, as to the adoption of the amendments, was then put and negatived without a division. The next amendment was then read, proposing that, in clause 32, the word " twentyfour" should be inserted instead of "twelve." Mr. Muller said the object of this amendment was to extend to two years the period before the expiration of which property, on which the rate was not paid, might not be sold, Dr. Renwick approved of the amendment, and would like the Superintendent to send a message to amend the Nelson Public Works Act in this respect. Mr. Saunders opposed the amendment, and said it was undesirable to leave any unclaimed, or unheld, or unagented land lying about the settlement. „ The amendment was then put. The committee divided :—: — Ayes, 4. Noes, 9. Mr. Elliott Mr. Wastney Dr. Renwick Dr. Monro Mr. Joseph Ward Mr. Saunderg Mr. Muller. Mr. Baigent Mr. Robinson Mr. Butler Mr. Jacka Mr. Parker. Mr. Poynter Mr. Saiton deolineJ to vote. Amendment lost. I The next amendment read, providing that all fines, &c, should be recoverable before "a" Justice of the Peace, The Provincial Solicitor observed that i this amendment was necessary, as in some districts it would be difficult to procure more than one Justice of the Peace. The amendment put. The committee divided : — Aye 3, 8. Nocj, 0. Mr. Elliott Mr. vSaundera Mr. Wastney Mr. Baigent Dr. J.foni'o Mr. Robinson Dr. Renwick Mr. Butler Mr. Joseph Ward. Mr. Jaeka Mr. Poynter Mr. Parker. The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Muller. The amendment agreed to. The Council then resumed, and the chairman reported the bill with an amendment. Ordered to be communicated to his Honor the Superintendent. MAIN LINES OE ROAD. Mr. Wastney moved, That the report of the select committee on the Main Trunk Lines of Road, as amended by the committee of the whole Council, be adopted. Dr. Monro seconded the motion. Mr. Saunders moved, aa an amendment, That the report of the select committee on the Main Trunk Lines of Road, as amended by the committee of the whole Council, amounts to nothing at all, and is therefore unworthy of adoption. It was like the man with two wives — one pulled out his black hairs, and the other his grey hairs. This report had been so pulled about, that it was not worth while going to any further expense or trouble with it. Mr. Parker seconded the amendment. The amendment was put and negatived. The original motion put. The Council divided : — Ayes, 11. Noes, 5. Mr. Elliott Mr. Saunders Mr. Wastney Mr. Robinson Dr. Monro Mr. Saxton Dr. Renwick Mr. Jacka Mr. John Ward Mr. Parker. Mr. Baigent Mr. Butler Mr. Joseph Ward Mr. Poynter The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Muller. The report was adopted. LAND REGULATIONS. The Provincial Solicitor moved, "That the report of the committee upon Message No. 6, of his Honor the Superintendent be adopted." The honourable member observed that this message, containing the proposed land regulations, had been carefully considered and slightly amended in committee, and its adoption was only delayed until the committee appointed to consider the question of the administration of the waste lands had brought up their report. Mr. Poynter seconded the motion. Mr. Saunders opposed the adoption of the report. The land regulations had been framed in such a way as to do the greatest injury to the settlement. By the land being put up in such large blocks, the extensive purchaser got it at little more than the cost price, and would contribute little or nothing to surveys and immigration, &c. ; but the small purchaser, who really wanted the land for occupation, would have to pay through the nose for it. The amount of patronage which, by the regulations, the administration of the waste lands would confer, was also objectionable, and he should oppose the adoption of the regulations.

The question was put, that the report be adopted. The Council divided :—

Ayes, 11. Noes, 5. Mr. Elliott Mr. Saunders Mr. Wastney Mr. Baigent Dr. Monro Mr. Robinson Dr. Renwick Mr. Butler Mr. John Ward Mr. Parker. Mr. Suxton Mr. Jacka. Mr. Joseph Ward Mr. Poynter The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Muller. Report adopted, and ordered to be forwarded to his Honor the Superintendent. SUSPENSION OF STANDING- ORDERS. | Mr. Muller moved, "That Standing Order No. 43 be suspended, for the purpose of enabling the Council to go into committee for the purpose of adopting the following amendment in the Appropriation Bill, clause 3, line 13, the following words: — 'Three hundred and ninety-one pounds twelve shillings and fivepence ' be omitted, and the following words inserted in their place, ' fifty-one pounds and fourpence ; ' and that the following words and figures be omitted, viz., 'Secretary's Department, 56340 os. 4d. ;' also that the sum of ".£391 12s. sd.' be omitted, and the sum of '.£sl os. 4d. ; ' be inserted." The honourable member observed that the sums had been added to the Estimates by the Council in the previous week, but that it had been found that such a proceeding was contrary to the Constitution Act, which required that the Superintendent should first recommend all items of money to be voted. Mr. Saunders said he thought it would have been better if the Superintendent had allowed the matter to remain as it was. After having voted the money, the Council should be allowed to express its own opinion as to the manner of doing it.

Mr. Muller said that it was a mere question of law. It had been decided by a lawyer that the question could not legally be legislated upon in the manner which had been done by the Council. Dr. Monro said that the point raised was not overlooked by the Council, and he thought that sufficient recommendation had been made by the comparative statement of sums voted and expended, which had been sent down to the Council by the Superintendent. According to that statement, it would appear that the Executive Government had appropriated the money, and he should think that quite a sufficient recommendation that the Council should legalize the expenditure. He asserted that the money had been appropriated without the warrant of the Council, and now they sought to legalize what had been done. He could not think people would submit to have the money appropriated without legal authority. The Provincial Solicitor said that by the Constitution Act it would not be lawful for the Superintendent to assent to the bill unless it was amended as proposed. There was nothing whatever to show that the Superintendent had requested the Council to make provision for the Secretary's Department, for the detailed statement of revenue and expenditure was no recommendation. It was purely a legal question, and the amendment was proposed iv order that the Council should not commit an illegality.

Mr. Elliott said that admitting, for the sake of argument, that an illegality had been committed, in defraying the charges of the Provincial Secretary's Department, when the bill which constituted that department was disallowed, another and much more glaring irregularity had been proposed to be committed, and that, too, by the honourable member who was the greatest stickler for a rigid observance of the law. The Council was expressly forbidden to vote any sums of money not first recommended to them by the Superintendent ; and yet it had most improperly added to the Appropriation Bill a sum of money under a head that previously had no place there. He would give the honourable member who brought forward that motion full credit for wishing to legalize, in a manner least obnoxious to the Executive, the expenditure of money which he believed to have been improperly made; but, if an illegality had really been committed, it should be set right in a legitimate manner, and not by committing a second one, in an attempt to correct the first. After a few remarks from Mr. Jacka, The question of suspension of standing orders was put and agreed to. APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Muller then moved, "That the Council go into committee, for the purpose of adopting the following amendment in the Appropriation Bill, clause 3, line 13, the following words : — ' Three hundred and ninetyone pounds twelve shillings and fivepence ' be omitted, and the following words inserted in their place, ' fifty-one pounds and fourpencc ; ' and that the following words and figures be omitted, viz., 'Secretary's, Department, os. 4d. ; '"also that the sum of '^391 12s. sd.' be omitted, and the sum of '^651 os. 4d.' be inserted. Mr. Parker seconded the motion. Agreed to. The Council accordingly resolved itself into committee ; Mr. Saxton in the chair.

Mr. Muller then moved the amendment, and alluded to the fact of the expenditure last year having been allowed by the auditors. Dr. Henwick. said that the auditors, as they saw the sum placed upon the Estimates, did not see fit to disallow it ; but after the decision which the Council had arrived at on the subject, he, as one of the auditors, should consider it his duty to disallow the item on the next occasion when the accounts of the province were audited. The Executive, he thought, would be much to blame if they did not endeavour to make peace with the Council after what had been done illegally.

Dr. Monro said that although the facts were pretty well before the Council, he must again repeat a few of them. The money voted last year was voted for a Provincial Secretary created by the Council, but the Superintendent refused his assent to the bill after the money had been voted. The Council was not aware that the assent of the Superintendent was to be refused to the bill, and consequently it voted money for an officer which it had created ; and this money was appropriated to an officer created by arbitrary authority. Such an appropriation, therefore, was illegal, and

the Council, although convinced of the illegality of which the Government had been guilty, sought to let the gentlemen of the Executive off as lightly as possible. But if the representatives of the people would allow the Executive to create offices and spend money as it pleased, self-government was the greatest farce imaginable, and the sooner they ceased to be actors in it the better. If the Council did not know the relation in which it stood to the Executive, and was not prepared to assert its authority and to be an effectual guardian of the public interests, it had better altogether abdicate its functions [hear, hear]. In the case at present under discussion, the Council had the most distinct recommendation to provide the money, for it had been spent on the officer : and was that not a recommendation from the Superintendent ? Did the Constitution Act say that the" recommendation was to be made in a schedule or in a clause ? Nothing of the sort. If the appropriation of the money was not a distinct recommendation for the Council to vote it, there never was a recommendation for anything : and what course could the Council take better calculated to reconcile at the same time its duty and to let the Executive off easily than the course they had taken. He had no doubt that it would be very unpalatable to the Executive to be told they had committed an error; but when gentlemen had spent the public money without authority they must be told of it, and they should be very glad that they were so lucky to get off so easily. If effectual responsible government had been provided by the Constitution Act, every executive officer appropriating money illegally ought to have been liable to impeachment. Honourable members opposite might smile and think that he was using words too big for the occasion ; but he maintained that it was a very serious matter ; and when the representatives of the people came to consider to what these arbitary acts of the Executive would tend, they would recognise the truth of what he said.

The Provincial Solicitor said that Dr. Monro had wandered from the question. It might be that the Superintendent had been convicted of an illegal act, but lie (the Provincial Solicitor) was not of that opinion. He did not think that the Supplementary Esti-j mates could be construed into a recommendation by the Superintendent that this money should" be added to the Appropriation Bill. There was a legal way of doing things, and an illegal way, and it was his duty to point out the legal course. After a few remarks from Mr. Robinson, The amendment was put and agreed to. The Council then resumed, and the Chairman reported the bill as amsnded. STEAM COMMUNICATION. The Provincial Solicitor moved, pursuant to notice, " That in case the revenue of the province so far exceeds the expenditure (as provided for in the Appropriation Act for j 1856) as to leave a sufficient balance in the j Provincial Treasury for that purpose, his Honor the Superintendent be authorized to give such a sum of money, not exceeding j .£1,500, as he may, with the advice of his Executive Council, think fit, by way of bonus or otherwise, towards the promotion of steam navigation between Australia and the port of Nelson." The Council, he said, had on former occasions voted sums of money by way of bonus, to assist steam navigation between this port and the neighbouring provinces; and last year the Council had voted a sum for the purpose of assisting steam communication between Nelson and Australia ; but this sum had not been expended, in consequence of the Superintendent not having been able to come to any arrangement on the subject. The. General Government had taken the management of the Zingari into their own hands, and had provided for her from the funds of the General Government. He did not propose to put any sum upoi^ the Appropriation Bill, but to adopt the course that had been pursued in the first session, so that if the revenue of the province exceeded expectation, the Superintendent would be authorized to take any steps he might find necessary for the promotion of the object of steam communication between I Nelson and Australia.

Mr. Muller seconded the motion.

Dr. Monro opposed the motion, not because he was not anxious to see steam communication promoted on our coasts, but because he thought that the revenue was not in a position to warrant such an expenditure. If there should be a superabundance of revenue, there were a number of public work 3 required on which the money would be beter expended, and would be likely to prove of more direct benefit to the province. Besides, this year the crops in Australia were understood to be abundant, and it was not likely that steam would be any advantage for our farmers to ship produce to Australia ; but last year it was different, and the demand in Australia for produce from the New Zealand market would have made a steamer advantageous in supplying that demand. Various pnblic works were urgently required to be executed in the province, on which the money would be much better spent than in promoting steam communication with Australia.

Mr. Parker would move an amendment. | He thought that if encouragement was afforded j to steam communication between the different localities of the province, it would be very beneficial to the whole of the inhabitants, and would be more beneficial to Nelson than even communication with Australia. A company had been formed to run a steamer on the coast of the province, and he thought it was 1 [ the duty of Government to support such an j enterprise, for it was not likely that thei steamer could be maintained in an efficient manner without some support for the first twelve months. He proposed, as an amend- ! ment, That the sum of be altered to 26500, as a bonus for the assistance of a steamer to run between Nelson and the other localities around the coast of the province. ' Mr. Jacka seconded the amendment. Mr. Saunders opposed the motion, the more especially as it was not likely the province would have d£1,500 to spare, and if it had, there were, in his opinion, better modes of expending the money. It would be unjust to expend the money on what would be of doubtful advantage, while there was so much necessity for works that were not at all doubt-

fill, but which wonld contribute to the benefit of the settlement.

Mr. Robinson objected to the vote, and did not think that any commensurate advantage would be gained* by it. Those things worked much better when left to private enterprise. He might remark that the Council was now called upon by the Provincial Solicitor: to commit another illegality by initiating a money question which the Superintendent had not recommended to the Council [hear, hear] ; and, if for no other reason, he should oppose the vote*

The Provincial Solicitor said that the Constitution Act referred only to bills, where it was stated that the Provincial Council could not legislate on many questions unless first recommended by the Superintendent. The sum proposed in his motion would be quite inadequate for the purpose, unless other provinces joined with Nelson in securing the services of a steamer.

Mr. Elliott said he was sorry that the member for Motueka had proposed an amendment to the resolution, which went to reduce the amount which the Superintendent should be authorized to expend on steam service, and to limit the assistance to be given from the revenue to a small interprovincial boat. Had the honourable member proposed to increase the vote from £1,500 to £2,500 for steam service, to enable the Executive to give assistance to an interprovincial boat as well as to a trunk-line steamer, he (Mr. Elliott) would willingly have supported him in such an amendment, as he believed that in doing so he should be taking the best means to promote the wealth and prosperity of the province. So far from concurring with the honourable member who had said, that any surplus revenue which the province might possess beyond the sum appropriated in the Estimates, could be most advantageously laid out on the various public works which the province required, he believed that no money could be so beneficially expended for its true interests as in linking this portion of the colony to the great chain of communication which connected Australia with England and the whole civilized world. Such a communication, if once established, would promote trade, increase population and wealth, and indeed repay the very outlay which was asked to effect it. If proof of this were needed, look at what steam did elsewhere. In Auckland, so well was the advantage of steam communication with Australia understood, that although the steamer William Denny, which ran between that port and Sydney, scarcely paid her expenses, yet, such were the advantages to the province generally from that communication, that another vessel, to run to another port in Australia, was talked of being started. With respect to the small steamer expected here immediately to ply between the port of Nelson and the other portions of the province, it was true that a loan of free of interest, had been promised to the Company who had engaged to run such a vessel, but from the heavy expenses which attended steam navigation in its infancy, it was possible that for the first year the vessel might not pay, and if a small vote from the revenue was necessary to keep such a vessel here, he was sure that public money could not be better expended. ! If the amendment of the honourable member was lost, he should bring forward another to increase the vote for steam service, which he must repeat he looked upon as the chief agent by which the resources of the province could be developed. Mr. Saunders said he would rather see the amendment passed than the original motion, although he objected to both. So far as his own observations had extended, where there had been one ton of produce to export from Nelson, there had always been ships to take twenty tons. Much injury had been done to the place by vessels having come down from Australia for produce, and being obliged to go away empty. The amendment was put. The Council divided : — Ayes, 5. Noes, 11. Mr. Saunders Mr. Elliott Mr. Kobinson Mr. Wastney Mr. Butler Dr. Monro Mr. Jacka Dr. Eenwick Mr. Parkor. Mr. John Ward Mr. Baigent Mr. Saxton Mr. Joseph "Ward Mr. Poynter The Provincial Solicitor Air, Muiier. Amendment lost. Mr. Elliott moved an amendment to the effect that the sum should be raised to £2,000, which should include £500 for steam service between the different localities of the province. He would be sorry to see the question thrown over, for the amount was only to be expended if the revenue would admit of it ; and they did not know what might happen before the Council met again. Mr. Wastney seconded the amendment. Dr. Monro said that he had voted against the last amendment, and for the same reason he should oppose the present one. He might state that a company had been formed to carry out local steam navigation, and they had received from the Board of Trustees of the Trust Funds a loan of £2,000 for seven years without interest ; and if the company could not get on with that assistance, they had better let some person carry out the system on behalf of the Government, and let it be supported by the public funds altogether. The amendment was then put, and negatived without a division. The original motion was then put. The Council divided : — Ayes, 7. Noes, 9. Mr. Elliott Dr. Monro Mr. Wastney Mr. Saundera Dr. Eenwick Mr. Baigent Mr. John Ward Mr. Robinson Mr. Poynter Mr. Butler The Provincial Solicitor. Mr. Saxton Mr. Muller. Mr. Jacka Mr. Joseph Ward Mr. Parker. The motion was lost. PUBLIC LANDS ACT. On the motion of the Provincial Solicitor, the Council went into committee, and adopted a slight amendment in the Waste Lands Act, suggested by his Honor the Superintendent. The Council then resumed, and th« Chairman reported accordingly.