PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume XV, Issue 2, 5 April 1856, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, April 1, 1856. The Council met at five o'clock ; the Speaker in the chair. All the members present but Messrs. Bush, Fearon, Barnicoat, Joseph "Ward, Cautley, and Lee. I ADMINISTRATION OF WASTE LANDS. ! Dr. Monro moved the adoption of the report of the Select Committee to whom had been referred the question of the administration of the "Waste Lands of the Crown. It would be seen by the report that the Committee had not considered it desirable to make any alteration in the mode of administration as agreed to by the Council ; but the system at present in operation was only of a temporary character, for a great change would possibly take place in the course of a few months, when it was probable that the absolute control of the waste lands would be handed over to the provincial authorities. The Committee, however, had recommended that when the proper time arrived, the administration of the waste lands of the crown should not remain entirely in the hands of the Executive, but in the hands of some party to be chosen by and responsible to the Provincial Council. The administration of the waste lands gave enormous power and influence to the person holding the office of Commissioner ; and although it was easy to point out the inconveniences attached to the system recommended by the committee, still greater inconveniences were deemed by the committee to attach to the plan of leaving this power in the hands of the ordinary Executive. For his own part, the honourable member said, he should like to see the administration of the waste lands in the hands of some party wholly independent both of the Executive and the Provincial Councils, or even to be managed by the General Government. As in America, the management of the waste lands was not in the hands of the various States, but was administered by the General Government of the Federation ; so in New Zealand, such a course would have been better. This course, was however, out of the question, for provincial interests were strong in the General Assembly, and each province seemed to be anxious to have the power over its own lands. In conclusion, he would observe that while the report involved no immediate changes, it nevertheless contained the assertion of a principle of great importance ; namely, that there was a great danger in giving undue power to the Executive Government, and that the Legislature should hold the appointment to some of the most important offices in its own hands. He would therefore move that the report which had been read be adopted. Mr. Hough seconded the motion. Mr. Muller did not rise to oppose the adoption of the report, but it was one of great length, and was of so much importance, that he thought its adoption should be postponed to give members a little more time for the consideration of it. Dr. Monro expressed his willingness to adopt the suggestion ot Mr. Muiler. Postponed accordingly. CATTLE BRANDING BILL. Dr. Monro moved, That Standing Order, No. 33, be suspended, in order to alow of the recommittal of the Cattle Branding Bill. Mr. Hough seconded the motion. Agreed to. • On the motion of Dr. Monro, the Council went into committee on the bill ; Mr. Parker in the chair. Dr. Monro moved a few verbal alterations in clauses 3, 5, 12, 14, and 17, which were agreed to. Mr. Jacka moved an amendment in clause 10, to the effect that the money derived from the sale of any impounded cattle should, after the deduction of the ordinary charges, be paid to the owner or his agent, if claimed within three months from the date of sale. After some discussion, in the course of which it was contended that the fourteen days' notice was sufficient, The committee divided :—: — Ayes, 6. Noes, 10. Mr. Sanndera Mr. Elliott Mr. Baigent Mr. Wastney Mr. Robinson Mr. Wells Mr. Hough Dr. Monro Mr. Saxton Dr. Renwick Mr. Jacka. Mr. John Ward Mr. Butler Mr. Poynter The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Muller. Amendment lost. Dr. Renwick moved that the provision in clause 10 be left out. He considered fourteen days was too short, and would prefer seeing it extended to twenty-one days. The committee divided : — Ayes, 3. Noes, 13. Dr. Renwick Mr. Elliott Mr. John Ward Mr. Wastney Mr. Jacka. Mr. Wells Dr. Monro Mr. Saunders Mr. Baigent Mr. Robinson Mr. Butler Mr. Hough Mr. Saxton Mr. Poynter The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Muller. Amendment lost. Dr. Monro moved an amendment, providing that, for fourteen days after shearing, sheep and lambs should not he subject to a penalty for being impounded. Agreed to. Mr. Jacka moved a verbal amendment to clause 2, which was agreed to. The Council then resumed, and the Chairman reported the bill with amendments. MESSAGES. The following messages from his Honor the Superintendent were received and read :—: — Message No. 1 9, proposing amendments in the Country Roads Bill. Message No. 20, proposing amendments in 'he Public Lands Bill. . APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Saunders moved, That the Appropriation Bill be recommitted, for the purpose of proposing that the sum of £130 for the Gaoler be struck out, and the sum of a£lso

be inserted in its stead. Many of the salaries of Government officers had been increased this year, and he thought that an increase was nowhere more necessary than in the present case. It seemed, however, to be the principle of the present Government to pay high salaries to those who did little or nothing, while good servants were paid as little as possible. Thus they had paid £800 a year to a gentleman who had been sent home as emigration agent, and who would perhaps do little more than sit in an easy chair and receive applications for passages ; but the gaoler was called upon to attend to his duties both day and night ; no rest, and no office hours, and yet he was denied the payment of an ordinary mechanic. The situation of gaoler was a most responsible one, and it was nothing but reasonable that he should be paid more than an ordinary clerk. Seconded by Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson moved the recommittal of the Appropriation Bill, for the purpose of reducing the amount voted for the Nelson Literary Institution, from £100 to £50. lie regretted that there should be any necessity for this reduction, and imagined that the Council had been perfectly clear on the uuderstanding with which that money was voted, although it would appear by the letter which Mr. Adams had published in the newspaper that there had been some misunderstanding. It was the duty of the Council to guard strictly against granting assistance to any institutions which were not generally available, and he should, on another occasion, be prepared to object even to the vote of £50 for such an institution if it was still kept so select as at present the high rate of admission rendered it.

Mr. Jacka seconded the motion, and said that he perfectly understood that the £100 w r as voted on the understanding that the vote of subscription was to be reduced. He did not think that a society of gentlemen who were able to pay £1 a year, ought to have any vote from the public money.

The Council then went into committee on the Appropriation Bill, Mr. Wells in the chair.

Mr. Saunders moved as an amendment that the item for the gaoler be £150 instead of £130. He hoped the Council would consider the motion on its fair footing : those who did the work should be paid.

Mr. Poynter rose to explain that last year the gaoler had only £120, and this year his salary had been raised to £130, and was in proportion to the increase in the salaries of the other officers of Government.

Mr. Robinson supported the amendment, and said that the gaoler was a man who had very onorous duties to perform, but who did his duty to the satisfaction, he believed, both of the public and the Government. It might be questioned whether the Government had a more efficient servant in their employ. | The Provincial Solicitor said that he quite agreed with the high opinion that had been expressed of Mr. Rodgerson as a public officer, but the Government had not overlooked his services, and he had received a larger proportionate increase in salary than any other Government officer. He did not see why the gaoler should be specially picked out to have ins salary increased. Mr. Rodgerson had not to perform so many very arduous duties, and for the most part of his time he had little or nothing to do. It must also be remembered that a place of residence was provided for the gaoler and his fanuly, and that lights and firing were found him. The gaoler was not therefore so badly paid in proportion to the duties he had to perform. Mr. Parker said that although much had been made of the comfortable house and free light and firing, he imagined few honourable members would like to enjoy the same privileges and pei'form the same duties as the gaoler at such a small pittance. It had been remarked that the amendment proposed to raise the gaoler's salary out of proportion to others, but he would refer the Council to the item for an officer, standing very near the gaoler's name on the estimates, in which case the increase had not been 100 but 300 per cent, [laughter]. But the question to be considered was, Was the present a sufficient salary ! for the duties required to be performed. After some remarks from Mr. Saunders in reply, The committee divided on the amendment. Ayes, 11. Noes, 3. Mr. Elliott Dr. Monro Mr. Wastney Mr. John Ward Dr. Renwick The Provincial Solicitor. Mr. Saunders Mr. Baigent Mr. Robinson Mr. Butler Mr. Hough Mi*. Saxton Mr. Jacka Mr. Parker. Mr. Poynter and Mr. Muller declined to vote. Amendment agreed to. Mr. Robinson moved that the amount voted for the Literary Institution be reduced from £100 to £50. The Provincial Solicitor said that the letter which he had sent to the Nelson Examiner was in consequence of the editor's inserting Mr. Robinson's remarks upon the grant to the Literary Institution, and not his (the Provincial Solicitor's) reply, and in order that if honourable members had voted in error, they might have an opportunity of rescinding their votes. lie had not guaranteed that the subscription would be reduced, for it would be only throwing away £50 to get £50, and they had better be content with a grant of £50 than reduce their subscriptions. Although the subscription was £1 a year, the number of members had nearly doubled since the subscriptions had been increased, and the benefits derived from the institution were quite equal to the amount of subscription. It was the wish of the committee to extend these benefits as widely as possible. There was scarcely any person who was anxious to be a member of the Institution but could afford to pay £1 a year as his subscription, for there were a very few who did not spend more than that sum at the pot-house. If the persons who thus spent their money at public-houses were from that reason unable to pay their subscription, it was entirely their own fault. If the institution could make people spend 10s. less yearly in that manner, the institution would be doing a public benefit. Dr. Mosno said lie should have preferred

if the amendment had proposed to strike out the sum altogether, for he saw no reason to justify the vote. It was a bad plan, and was likely to encourage habits of dependence. If it was really an institution, instead of being only a book-club, and the money voted was intended to be spent in the purchase of philosophical instruments and apparatus, retorts, &c, the committee might then get some person to give lectures on scientific subjects, and it would become a public benefit [hear, hear]. Mr. Robinson said, that by a few figures it might be proved that, whether the vote was reduced to £50 and the subscription remained at £1, or whether the subscriptions were reduced to 10s. and £100 was voted by the Council, the revenue would still amount to £150, if there were 100 members, but in the latter case they would also offer an inducement to 50 or 60 more subscribers to join the society ; they might even get as subscribers some of these men from the pot-house, in whom the Provincial Solicitor took so much interest. The honourable gentleman in talking of the increase in the number of subscribers, had forgotten to state that the increase was not alone owing to the increased rate of subscription, but also to the increased accommodation and benefit afforded. He (Mr. Robinson) would suggest, that as the system appeared to have worked so well, the members of the Institution should again double their subscriptions, and get double the number of subscribers next year [laughter]. Mr. Elliott said he agreed with Dr. Monro, that it was not expedient as a rule that a book-club should be kept up by votes of public money : but there were exceptions to this. Situated as this province was, it was a matter of considerable importance both to its present and future well being, that a good public library should be founded here, and for that purpose he thought votes of public money might very legitimately be given. A library in connection with the Literary Institution appeared to be the readiest way of carrying out such an object, and if the money which the Council had voted to that institution was wisely expended in the purchase of books, public money would be well applied. He would not discuss the question whether the money would be best spent in books or in philosophical apparatus, but either would be beneficial. It was a mistake of an honourable member to attribute the success which had attended the institution during the last year to the attraction of books obtained by a former vote of the Council, since the books which had been ordered from England had not yet arrived. The money which the Council voted had, however, been serviceable in another way, since it had enabled the Mauaging Committee, instead of keeping open the building for a few hours only, to obtain a Librarian, who attended there though out the day. This arrangement had doubled the number of the subscribers, although the rate of subscription had at the same time been doubled. The Managing Committee had tried every plan to make the Institution attractive, and amongst others, the reduction of the subscription to 10s. a year ; but it was a singular fact, that the Institution was the least attended when the subscription was lowest, while, since the subscription has been doubled, the number of members had risen higher than it ever before counted. He should be sorry to see the vote of the Council rescinded, for he felt sure the money which the Council had bestowed upon the Institution , would be expended judiciously.

Mr. Saunders said his objection was that the institution and the charge were both aristocratic. The hours kept were also aristocratic, for while the country libraries were open at G or seven in the morning, the institution in Nelson did not open till 11, and it was closed again at the aristocratic dinner hour, which was just the time working men were leaving their work, and had some leisure for reading. If the Provincial Solicitor was anxious to reclaim men from the pot-house, it would not be by keeping the subscription at £ 1 a year, for when a man left off drinking he was not likely to have £l in his pocket. Mr. Elliott said there was no such distinction among the members of the institution as had been stated by Mr. Saunders. The majority of the members were strictly working men, and the hours during which the Institution was kept open had been framed for their convenience. Mr. Saunders said that Mr. Elliott and himself differed as to the definition of a working man. The committee divided on the amendment for reducing the vote to :—: — Ayes, 10. Noes, 6. Dr. Monro Mr. Elliott Mr. John Ward Mr. Wastney Mr. Saunders Dr. Renwick Mr. Baigent " Mr. Poynter Mr. Robinson The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Butler Mr. Muller. Mr. Hough Mr. Saxton Mr. Jacka Mr. Parker. Amendment carried. The Council then resumed, and thr chairman reported the amendments as agreed to. LAND REGULATIONS. The Provincial Solicitor moved the further consideration, in committee, of Message, No. 6, of the Superintendent, containing the Land Regulations. Mr. Wells seconded the motion. Agreed to. The Council went into committee accordingly ; Mr. John Ward in the chair. The Council then resumed, and the chairman reported the Land Regulations, with the amendments formerly agreed to. CATTLE TRESPASS AND IMPOUNDING ORDINANCE. Mr. Jacka moved the adoption of the Report of the Committee appointed to consider the "Cattle and Trespass " and ".Impounding" Ordina*. cc. The honourable member observed that it had been deemed advisable to postpone any amendments in the said ordinances until the next session, against which time the Government would prepare and bring in a bill for the purpose. _ Mr. Parker seconded the motion. Agreed to. LIMITATION OF PATRONAGE BILL.

Dr. Monro now begged to bring up a bill to limit the patronage of the Executive. He had been ordered to prepare a bill, as chair-

man of the Select Committee appointed by the Council to report on the subject of the limitation of patronage, one of the instructions to that committee being to bring in a bill if they thought necessary. Had it been requisite for him to obtain leave from the Council he could have had no doubt of obtaining that permission, since the principle of it had been affirmed by a majority of about 18 to 4, the minority including few except the officers of the Executive. He might state that the bill had been founded on the report of the Select Committee on the subject, and also on the resolution which had been agreed to by the Council ; and the object of the bill was, as its title implied, to restrict the Superintendent from employing more than a certain number of members of the Provincial Council, either as officers of Government or as contractors. But the bill did not propose to interfere with existing arrangements, and was intended more as a precautionary measure for the future. Mr. Hough seconded the motion. Leave given. Bill read a first time and ordered to be printed. PETITION OF JAMES MACKAY AND OTHERS.

Dr. Renwick moved the adoption of the report of the Select Committee on the petition of Messrs. Mackay, Sclanders, and others, relative to the payment of the expenses of tho commission appointed to inquire into the sinking of the steamer Zingari, and stated that the Provincial Solicitor having made a proposition to him to the effect that if the evidence was placed upon the table he would withdraw his opposition, and as the documents had been placed in his (Dr. Renwick' s) hands to make whatever use he thought proper of them, he had no objection to lay the evidence before the Council, and therefore thought it was unnecessary for him to take up the time of the Council by any further discussion of the matter, as he believed that all objection to the adoption of the report would be taken away by the production of the papers. The Provincial Solicitor said that the letter referred to by Dr. Renwick contained no threat, but simply asked for the evidence, and said the money would be paid ; and Mr. Saunders had objected to it because it did not state that the money would not be paid until the evidence was given up. He had suggested to Dr. Renwick that as the members of the Council appeared determined not to agree to pay the money until the evidence was delivered up, he thought the best thing that Dr. Renwick could do was to lay it upon the table, and in that case he would withdraw his opposition to the repoxt, as he did not wish to prevent their getting the money when it was given up ; and if Dr. Renwick would lay the evidence upon the table, he should not oppose the adoption of the report. He spoke for himself individually ; he did not know what the other members would do.

Mr. Jacka said that he had carefully read the evidence through, and he felt that the Executive was entitled to any information that could be procured on the subject. If the papers were of any value the province should have the benefit of that value, and he thought the papers should be preserved with other public documents in the Superintendent's office.

Dr.* Monro said that the time had gone by, and it was now too late to interfere with any arrangement entered into so long since ; and, with the exception of Mr. Poynter, who was absent at the time, every one of the committee were unanimously of opinion that it was a clear case of debt. Mr. Saunders said the question was not whether the money should be paid, but whether the report should be adopted. If it was the opinion of the Council that the report was not in accordance with the evidence before them, the Council had a right to reject the report of that committee. . Mr. Robinson said that after looking over the documents on the subject, he could not see that the committee could substantiate the claim for payment so long as the evidence was withheld. Certain facts elicited by the inquiry had become the property of the public ; but because the gentlemen composing the commission had given a hasty declaration that they would not give up the evidence, it was now considered that they could not as gentlemen do that which they had once refused to do. The Government he thought had only displayed a proper zeal in withholding the money until the work had been completed, which it would not be until the evidence was produced. Dr. Renwick having laid the evidence upon the table, The Council divided upon the question, That the report be adopted :—: — Ayes, 6. Noes, 9. Mr. Elliott Mr. John Ward Mr. Wastney Mr. Saunders Mr. Wells Mr. Baigent Dr. Renwick Mr. Sobinson Mr. Butler Mr. Hough Mr. Saxton. Mr. Jacka Mr. Parker Mr. Poynter Mr. Muller. Dr. Monro and tho Provincial Solicitor declined to vote. The motion was lost. The Council then adjourned.