AIM OF MEASURE.

Manawatu Standard, Volume LVIII, Issue 234, 1 September 1938, Page 13

AIM OF MEASURE.

LABOUR'S EXPOSITION. VERDICT WITH ELECTORS. Per Press Association. WELLINGTON, Aug. 31. The, debate on the second reading of the Social Security Bill was continued in the House of Representatives today. Mr E. L. Cullen said that quite a number of families in all parts of the Dominion had gone without medical services in their homes, but tin's position would be remedied under the Bill. It had been said that the Government ,jvas building on the legislation of past Administrations. Tilts might be so, he said, but he felt sure that the people of the country would give a clear-cut verdict on Hie manner in which _ the Government intended to administer that legislation and improve on it. Referring to health camps, Mr Cullen said it was no credit to the country that we had in our midst so many young children waiting to go into these camps. No country could thrive without a healthy community, and today we had many children from large families who required to go into health camps. It was healthy children 'we needed. Although our medical service was a splendid one. in many cases, he said, there were still districts all over tlio Dominion where the service was poor.

In conclusion Mr Cullen made a plea for the Maori widow who had been "married under tribal custom without going through the usual legal observance, and he would recommend to the Minister of Finance that he should give consideration to the question of granting these widows pensions facilities. Many of these marriages were just as binding as those where legal and Church ceremonies'had been performed He would also ask the Minister to consider the granting of pension facilities to Maoris who were unable to produce the necessary birth certificates due to the oldtime custom of Maoris not registering births. Mr C. IT. Chapman said that education was free in New Zealand and he was also of opinion that medical services should be free. The Government’s scheme was a comprehensive and ambitious one, but those without vision could not be blamed if they failed to realise its possibilities of success.

Speaking of the insurance aspect of the scheme, Mr Chapman said thousands of people who had bought industrial insurance would be increasingly better off under the Bill. There would be no incentive for them to continue paying the” miserable premiums, which were no doubt lucrative to the insurance companies but were an illusion to the policy-holder. The benefits under the Bill were so much greater that people might lie expected to cease patronising this form of insurance that had many unsavoury features. FARMERS’ ATTITUDE.

Mr J. Robertson said the Leader of the Opposition definitely favoured medical service for those who could not afford to pay, in other words class service. In this respect Mr Hamilton was definitely out of step with the Farmers’ Union, which favoured a universal medical service. The Farmers’ Union was definitely committed to a universal medical service, and to that extent that organisation must support the Government in regard to its health proposals.

Mr Robertson continued that be had it on good authority that when Sir Henry Braekenbury was brought to New Zealand by the B.M.A. (New Zealand branch) representatives of the B.M.A. waited on the Farmers’ Union to try to get 'tin t l to support the B.M.A. scheme. He was credibly informed that the B.M.A. representatives had told the Farmers’ Union that if it did not support the B.M.A. that organisation would support the socialisation of farms. Mr W. J. Poison: That is not correct. I was there.

Mr Robertson : I am credibly informed it did take place. Mr Poison: I was present at all the discussions and it didn’t take place. Mr Robertson: \There was more than one person present. I have checked up what my informant told me and I have said what I have without fear of contradiction. Mr Robertson continued that be had been surprised to hear that such a proposal had been made, and he added that he bad also been reliably informed that the B.M.A. was getting a fighting fund together to fight the Government scheme. The amount of this fund was stated to bo between £20,000 and £30,000, and a doctor friend of his bad said he had been asked to supnort it. He could not believe that that attitude represented the opinion of the majority of the medical men of.this Dominion.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES’ POSITION. Mr A. G. Osborne paid a tributo to the magnificent service given to the community by the Friendly Societies and lie denied that the Bill would sound the death knell of the Friendly Society organisation. As far as Friendly Societies were concerned, the only provisions of the Bill which would conflict with their work would be the provision of the general practitioner service, the hospital scheme and the free medical service, and these were the only parts of the Friendly Society schemes which wore not revenue-pro-ducing. In fact, they were quite the reverse. Ho was; proud to bo associated with a Government, lie said, that was determined to bring social security to all the people.

FINANCE MINISTER IN REPLY. On the conclusion of Mr Osborne’s speech the Minister of Finance (Hon. \V. Nash) rose to reply to the second reading debate. lie said that the main criticism which had been direct-

etl at the Bill was the possibility of meeting the cost of the Government’s proposals. Tho Opposition had said they would not interfere with tho proposals if they were returned to office, but that tho proposals were not practicable because the cost was too high. Tile Minister contended that either scheme could be effected financially or it could not, and lie was interested to know how the Opposition would find the cost if it were not gbing to interfere with tho proposals themselves. Opposition members had generally agreed with the different aspects of the Government’s scheme, but there was not one member on the Opposition benches who had not raised at least one “but” in the course of his speech. Members on the Government benches had said tho scheme could bo carried out and it would be done. If it could not be done out of the income of the country then it would not bo done. ACTUARY’S ESTIMATES.

The Minister went on refer to the estimates of the country’s income by the English actuary (Mr Maddox), saying that Mr Macldex had never said he was competent to estimate the future income of this country. Mr Maddox had determined his figures on past production, as inevitably he must. No ono could follow any other road than what had happened in the past, and from that the Government had estimated what would happen in tho future. The Minister said lie was anticipating the future on what had happened in tho past. Mr Maddox’s figures had never been challenged. There had been a suggestion, said Mr Nash, that the benefits under the Bill, especially the age benefits, would not be introduced until 1940. In this case there had been some confusion over universal superannuation, which would become operative on that date, but all the other benefits under the measure would become effective as from April 1 next year.

The Minister added that lie wondered if it had ever been thought out how many people would benefit under the Government’s proposals. The number of those estimated to come under the superannuation benefit was S0 ; 000, invalidity 11,700, widows’ pensions 9000, widowed mothers 5500, orphan's 1300, war pensions not provided under the Bill 24,000, war veterans 2200, family allowances 67,000, miners 1100, and sundry pensions 250, making a total of 202,650 persons. If children were excluded from the above figures the total would be about 130,00 b. REPLIES TO OPPOSITION. Mr Nash denied that there had ever been any effort to curtail the debate on the Bill to the slightest degree. He then proceeded to reply to points raised by Opposition speakers during the second reading debate. Tho member for Awarua (Mr J. Hargest) had stated that these benefits had all been brought into being by past Governments, but the Minister contended that there was nothing comparable qn the Statute Book in 1935 to the legislation which had been enacted or was proposed to be enacted by the Labour Government. Mr Hargest had also said that the sick and aged had never been denied sick benefits. This was not the case. There were thousands of people who had not had proper medical attention because they had refused to seek medical advice if they could not pay for it. It bad also been said that the Bill would break down the relationship between doctor and patient, but this he did not believe. The member for Stratford (Mr W. J. Poison) had said that old people should not bo on the pension roll regardless of whether their relatives were in a position to be able to look after them, but the Minister held that there was nothing more degrading for old people than to be dependent on the charity of their relatives. It did relatives good to give to old people, but those old people should have incomes by right. It was a legitimate charge on the community. Mr Poison had also said it was unfair that the Bill should be brought down in the dying stages of the session, hut if the people wanted it to be repealed they could easily vote in that direction at the coming general election. Mr Poison had also stated that the Government should be certain that the money to be spent on its proposals could not be better expended in other directions. He would like MivPolson to say how it could be better spent and if he could show it could be spent in a better way then the money would be expended in that direction. Mr Nash said the Opposition had asked if the country could stand the financial strain of the scheme, but lie would ask if it could stand the strain of widows and children being unprovided for, of old-age pensioners receiving only 17s 6d a week, etc. The Opposition knew the people of the country nothing to do with anyone who opposed the Bill, and they were dodging here, there and everywhere to try to get their criticism of the measure through without actually opposing the Bill. PROVIDING THE FUNDS. Referring to the tax which would he necessary to provide funds for the scheme, the Minister said the Opposition was quite correct when it was contended that the tax would approximate an average of 2s. Some 50 per cent, would be derived from the direct tax, but the other 50 per cent, would come from ordinary renewal sources and would not come from the pocket of the worker. The Opposition said they would carry out their scheme without the wages tax, but if they adopted a scheme at all the money would have to be raised from other sources. In fact, said Mr Nash, he was pretty certain it could not be dene. Mr Nash continued that it had been asked if the revenue for the scheme could lie raised without detrimentally affecting the real producers of the country. Personally, ho was of opinion

that the real production capabilities of 1 the Dominion had not even been touched as yet. The principle of the Bill was that there should be no benefit without contribution and no contribu- ■ tion without benefit. There had been some criticism of the fact that women should have to contribute, but in the past women had received very few benefits. However, under the Bill they would receive many benefits. He proceeded to outline those which women would receive under the measure.

Referring to the medical profession’s attitude to the Government’s scheme, Mr Nash said there had been no shadow of rebuff given to the profession by the Government and he had no doubt that in the long run an amicable agreement would be readied between the Government and the profession. The Minister then submitted a series of figures showing the classes of people whom the measure would benefit. In one out of every 15 married couples the wife would lose her husband before she reached the age of 60 years. One child out of every 60 would he fatherless before it reached the age of 16, and one in every 333 would lose both parents before the age of 16. One person in every 83 would become invalided for life between the ages of 16 and 60. Of these one out of. every two would have a wife and one out of every three would have a wife and child as well. All these would benefit under the Bill. In old age, said the Minister, one out of every two people who reached the age of 60 did not have enough to live on. The average medical expenses per annum were £lO per year. The average loss of time per worker throughout tho Dominion through sickness was 16-days per year. A total of 33,000 babies were born in tho Dominion, and the Minister estimated that hardship existed in tho case of 13.000 of these births. “THOUHT OUT FOR YEARS.”

Mr Nash reiterated the outline of the Bill as it affected the medical profession and proceeded to criticise the report of the Opposition members on tho Superannuation and Health Committee. He said lie "had never personally taken any credit fqr tho Bill, which had been thought out by the Labour Party for many years. 'lbis was the first Social Security Bill that could bo called social security in its real sense. There had never been anything comparable with It on the Statute Book of the country. The people of the country at the next election would, ho said, have an opportunity of showing their approval or otherwise of the scheme and he was confident that although it might cost people a little more money they would not hesitate to vote in favour of the Bill. Mr Nash then moved the second reading of the Bill after a two-hour speech. When the motion was put,-not a single Opposition voice was raised to oppose tho second reading, a fact which was greeted with sustained Government applause, and the House immediately went into Committee on tiio measure. HOUSE IN COMMITTEE. Speaking on the short title, Mr H. S. S. Kyle said that over 16,000 persons had come into the Dominion in the last nine years and they would have to contribute towards the scheme. Would they be debarred from the benefits of it? Mr H. M. Rushworth asked the Minister to make some definite statement concerning exemption from the tax of old age, blind and war disability pensioners, and also to state that the Public Service superranuation payments would be exempt from the tax. Mr A. C. A. Sexton asked if the returned soldier who was in receipt of a war pension would get the superannuation allowance. The Minister replied that there was nothing in the Bill that would ” debar anyone in receipt of a war pension from receiving superannuation. With regard to Mr Rushworth’s question, there was provision that all who received benefits under the Bill would be exempted from the tax. This provision was not actually provided for in the Bill, but would be effected by Order-in-Council. Mr W. J. Broadfoot asked if hospital rates would be wiped out under the Bill.

The Leader of the Opposition (Hon. A. Hamilton) said lie would like to get the financial provisions of the Bill a little clearer.' There was authority to abolish the Unemployment Fund. The annual income to this fund was some £5,250,000, and there was a surplus of perhaps £1,000,000, making £6,250,000. What concerned the Opposition was how the people who at present were depending on this fund were going to get on. This was one of the financial puzzles of the Bill. The Minister had accused the Opposition of making rash statements, but it was because he had not clarified the scheme himself that such statements were made. Mr Hamilton also asked if a man owning land worth £IO,OOO was eligible for the pension. The Minister, in reply, said he could not imagine anyone possessing land to that value not receiving some income from it which necessarily would affect his pension. Mr It. A. Wright asked if the Minister would make provision in the Bill to allow pensionirs to pay, say, a month’s visit to Australia without losing their pension. Mr W. A. Bodkin said tlie suggested establishment of a social security fund indicated that all contributions were being made' to a common account. In view of the fact that sixpence in the Is would be devoted to medical benefits and the other sixpence to superannuation benefits, the latter should be placed in a separate account as a trust fund. It was not fair that young people should have to pay into /a fund money that would be paid out' for other purposes. Mr K. J. Holyoake contended that, taken all in all, the tax for the scheme would amount to 2s 6d in the £l. Mr Nash, replying to various points raised, said with - regard to Mr Wright’s question, Nat the matter had already been given some consideration, and if it were found practicable to pay pensions to old people who were away from the Dominion for a month it could go into the Bill. With regard to another point raised, Mr Nash said it had been said it was unfair that parents should have to pay the tax for persons aged 16 years. This was not so, because parents derived benefit under the measure. After all, he said, it was the parents who paid the doctors’ bills, and they would not need to do so when the Bill was in operation. The debate on the short title was interrupted by the adjournment at 10.30.