PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 7, Issue 457, 20 January 1864, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, January 19, 1864. ...,*;■,■_ The Council met at 11 o'clock. Purohase of Ahuriri Plains. .. Mr. 'Colenso asked the Superintendent, — If the Government : have, during the.past year, beer* : able to effect anything towards securing a portion of the Ahuriri Plains for the use of agricultural ' settlers:' '-■:■•--' The Superintendent said, in reply, that the

mimmammßKmMaammtmmammaßamaammaimmaßmKaatmmmmamm Government had not been able to effect a purohase of any part of the Ahuriri Plains. It was •well known to the member for Napier that, for .the natives had resisted all overtures to purchase the plains ; and certainly the state of the •country during "the past year made it the least likely of. all others to succeed in doing so. No 1 person of prudence would even have attempted it. It could not be done, if done at all, without stirring up serious difficulties between European and Native, and between different tribes of the iatter, which he was sure it was the desire of every one to avoid. The question of title to the land in question had been much complicated by the feud of 1855 ; that feud still existed in reality; . and any attempt to purchase the rights of one section would lead to resistance on the part of another. No one would be more willing than himself to see those plains secured for the benefit of an agricultural class; such a class was much required in the province ; but the Council was well aware of the difficulties that stood in the way, Correspondence relative to Loan. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to notice, rose to " move that copies of all correspondence with Inspectors or Managers of Banks, and with Loan or money agents (if any) respecting the Provincial loan, be laid on the table forthwith. He confessed that, upon hearing His Honor's address yesterday he thought .there .was scarcely any occasion for the motion ; but as he was not quite sure of His Honor's exact words, he had placed the notice on the table. The Council was told in the address that the correspondence in question would be laid upon the table. But there might be other correspondence than that referred to ; he had heard in Auckland there was ;. and, as a member for Napier, he deemed it his duty to call for all correspondence upon the subject whatever. The matter was a good deal talked of out of doors. He did not refer to what had appeared in the Herald ; indeed he had heard nothing new since he returned. He hoped something new would trans- • pire : for he did not like the present aspect of the affair. The Superintendent said that, in laying the correspondence upon the table, he would say one or two words of explanation. When the Loan Bill was assented to, tenders for the negociation of the loan were called for in the usual way. There were at that time three Banks, but out of these two only tendered. During the negociation certain points arose which could not be satisfactorily settled by the managers here ; and, as Mr. Ormond, a member of the Executive, was about proceeding to Auckland, it was deemed best to authorise him to communicate wjth. the heads of the respective establishments there, and to conclude the negociation. He (the Superintendent) was aware of no other correspondence on the subject, except a letter from a private individual -wholly unconcerned in the negociation, to the effect that it would be more advantageous to the province to raise the whole loan at- once. He would now recapitulate the terms offered by the two Banks for negociating the loan and for the provincial account : Bank of New Zealand, — ; Charge for commission for the negociation of the loan, f per cent. ; — Interest to be charged on advances, 7 per cent., and 5 per cent, to be allowed on deposits, or, in the option of the Government, 6 per cent, to be charged on advances and 4 per cent, to be allowed on deposits ; — No interest allowed on the proceeds of the sale of the bonds until advices reach the colony ; — Will not -agree to fix any amount that the account will be overdrawn, nor is any amount named of advances to be made on debentures placed with them for sale ; — Rate of exchange between Great Britain and New Zealand, _ per cent, below current rates, — Union Bank of Australia, — Charge for commission for the negociation of the loan, 1 per cent. ; — Interest to be charged on advances 6 per cent., allowed on deposits (current account) 5 per cent., and on fixed deposits for 12 months, 6 per cent. ;— lnterest allowed on the proceeds of the loan from the day of sale in London at the rate of 5 per cent. ; The Bank offers to advance £10,000 on account of the proceeds of the loan, from the date of the bonds being sent to London ; — Rate of exchange on half-yearly interest of loan at current rates, on provincial account at J per cent, under current rates. — These were the terms offered, by the respective Banks ; and Mr. . Ormond, in closing with the Union, deemed their tender the more advantageous of the two. The papers, however, were all on the table, and members would have an opportunity of judging for themselves. The Superintendent was alluding, as we understood, to an advantage derivable from interest being allowed on the portions of the loan that were unproductive, when the Speaker called him to order as deviating from the subject before the Council, and the Superintendent contented himself with laying the, papers on the table. j Mr Colenso said that as His Honor had com- 1 plied with the terms of the motion, he would, with-the coQseht of -the -Council, -withdraw Ms motion.— -Withdrawn accordingly. Acquisition of tlte Ahuriri Plains. Mr. Coi/ENSO, in accordance with notice, moved " that this Council resolves that His Honor the Superintendent be requested to use every possible fair exertion, — both positive and nega- | tive, — to reserve and obtain so much of that 1 portion of the Ahuriri Plains, bounded by the Ngaruroro and Tutaekuri rivera and by the sea and the first hills, as may not be required by the Maori proprietors for their own use, for the loca- , tion< and use of agricultural settlers." In doing , so. he referred to the Superintendent's answer to ■ the question he put a short time before. His Honor said that, owing to the troublous times, ; he had not been able to approach the subject of . buying land from the natives. It might be so ; yet,- notwithstanding, they heard every day of i private persons dealing with them for land. In _ fact the plains were already all taken up ; and if Government could not do what private individuals ; did,~it acknowledged itself to be very weals. He would draw attention to the terms of his re- | solution as proof that he asked for no impossibi-lity-rsimply fair exertion, negative and positive. ! By negative exertion he meant putting the law ! into force, so that the .laud might not be mono-.-polised by. runholders to the exclusion , of . an ' agricultural, class.* His Honor- Jiad lamented thisexelusion of the agricultural class j but, so i

far as he (Mr. Colenso) knew, the Government had supinely permitted the land tor be taken up right and left, until the whole of the plains were thus taken up, although the government had the' power to stop it at once. The more he heard'of what was going on, the more iniquitous it appeared : Commissioners, Magistrates, members of 'the Executive, and members of the Provincial Council, — all going in for a slice. The Superintendent said that he lamented what was going on, but did he do anything to prevent it 1 If the Government felt itself unable to make any active exertion in the way of buying, it could take the other position, and use measures to prevent the illegal occupation. He had heard that, consequent upon the prospect of a native difficulty inland, the Superintendent had very rightly written for an officer to be appointed to lay informations. That officer had now been appointed for some months, yet although squatting was going on all round, he had never been called upon to lay a single information. It was said even that the head member of the Executive (Mr. Ormond) had himself leased a portion of the plains. The consequence of all this would be that the Ordinance would be left completely in abeyance, j that a stone would be hung about the neck of Hawke's Bay, and it might just as well be thrown into the sea. His ideas as to going back to the bosom of Wellington were well known, but rather than see the whole country taken up by squatters, he would support re-annexation to Wellington. The evil was great and" staring them in the face ; , yet either the local government was not sufficiently alive to its duties— active or negative — or it was so influenced by the interests of its own members and their friends, that it would not act. In Auckland he had met with several persons who did not like the climate and soil of Auckland, and who, had Hawke's Bay been in better odour, would gladly have settled there, but they had heard so much of the land monopoly going on that, even though he gave them some information of a more cheering character than they had received before, they could not think of Hawke's Bay as their future home, but preferred trying their fortunes in the Middle Island. When in Auckland he had tried to sell some of his own little pieces of land, but the unL varying answer he received was that, so long as things were managed as they are, it was perfectly useless to bring any Hawke's Bay rural or farming land into the Auckland market. He trusted, ! in conclusion, that the motion would be affirmed, and that squatters would be checked in their career ; for if the government supinely allowed the plains to be taken up, so sure would they be I gone from the province for ever. j Mr. Tiffen only regretted that the wording [ was not more extensive, that a greater area was not included in the land described as that which j should be reserved. The present head of the Go- [ vernment was opposed at a very early period to • the leasing of native lands ; and he (Mr. Tiffen) only regretted that it was not so still. He would read letters written by Mr. McLean from 1850 in 1862, which shewed that at that time he set his face determinedly against it. He (Mr. Tiffen) quite endorsed the opinion then expressed by Mr. . i McLean. He would refer to the comparatively j recent occupation of the Roukawa block by a settler, and to the consequent appointment of an officer to lay informations under the Ordinance I on the ground that the title to the block waa disputed, and that its occupation, in consequence, was dangerous. Now, His Honor had just told j the Council that one reason why it would be dangerous to deal with the natives for the plains was that the title to them was disputed ; yet the i very settler who leased the Roukawa block had leased a large slice of those very plains — and not only so, but had sublet part. He might almost characterise such proceedings as atrocious, but j he would not use such strong language,"and would content himself with saying that if they were permitted it would be impossible hereafter to acquire any land for agricultural purposes. He then referred to a block of laud which, in a former year, had been offered to the government for. 2s 3d per acre ; but, now that it was let at a heavy rental, could it be bought for the same money — could it be bought at all ? He saw mem- - bers present who must vote against the resolution, as their own property would be affected. As to farming pursuits, it was clear that if the plains could be taken up in tbis way, it would be impossible for the freeholder to compete with the illegal occupier. Mr. Bousfield said that for many years he > was the officer appointed to lay informations under the Native Land Purchase Ordinance. Seven or eight years ago, when the breach of the law was beginning, he made strong representations to the Government to induce them to put the Ordi- • uance into force ; but ineffectually. The consequence was that the example set by the few had naturally enough been followed by the many. Now there was hardly a piece of native land in the province, except what was actually in the occupation of the natives themselves, that was not in the occupation of squatters. And that, tgo, at the very heaviest rate — such a rate, indeed, as, if asked by the government, would be laughed at. Mr. Bousfield continued, as we understood, by commenting upon a remark in the Herald ; and concluded by saying that the evil was one of great magnitude, and that it was incumbent upon the government to interfere. ' Mr. Fitzgerald could not say with a former speaker that because private individuals could lease, the government was weak because it could not buy. Leasing was a very different thing; from buying. With regard to illegal squatting it should be at once blotted out so far as the plains are concerned. So far as outlying placea are concerned he wonld like to see it legalized, and all occupants taxed. > There could be but one 1 opinionas to the plains — that they ought not yet to be occupied by a single European. The Govern; ment surely could not wish this to be the case ; but if it did it was not worthy pf confidence. He would gladly vote for the resolution. The Superintendent had little to say with re ference to the motion itself, but he would notice some of the remarks which had been used by members opposite! The member for Napier said that the province had a bad name — that persons, believing the land to be all in the hands or monopolists, were shying of coming to' it. But ; who occasioned ' that-feeling ? It'- could not be said that this Government did ; for the firfct effort at reserving the public lands Had been made by

it. (Mr. Co^sso, No.). My. McLean.— With the exception of*a small reserve. It was unfair to •charge the present go ver'ument with doing what members opposite .had had most share in, if any one had. With respect to the action recommend--ed in the resolution, it was very well. But none of the speakers had attempted to shew that the Superintendent had any power in the matter. Such powers were vested in the General Government and oouid only be exercised by persons to whom they were delegated. .He quite agreed in the necessity for such land being reserved for -agricultural purposes ; but how could we reserve what doesn't belong to us— what belongs to the natives? Reference had been made to his own action in the matter of this Ordinance. It had always been his endeavour to support the law in this respect ; and he-believed he might say ifc was through his exertions that the province was a province at all — that its settlers were not all squatters, and every acre of it not occupied by sheep and- cattle. He denied that any action of the Government to which he belonged had prejudiced people at a distance, or otherwise injuriously affected the province. The member for the town had said that he could not dispose of ■certain pieces. of land because of the prevalent feeling against the province. . But by whom had this feeling -been created 1 Certainly not by this government. But there were periods of depression, especially in time of war, which j operated in deterring persons from settling; but all such periods were followed by a re-action. As to the spread of squatting, the evil was not confined to this province. It was the same in Auckland, only on a smaller scale. In that province hundreds and thousands of pounds were annually paid to the natives for timber alone. Even the Waikato had been occupied by squatters : It was the same on the West Coast — in the province to which the member for Napier talked of, seeing Hawke's Bay re-annexed. No province was altogether exempt from squatting — it was done to a small extent even in Taranaki. It was one of those evils which had grown up, and to restrain which was one of the greatest difficulties the General Government had to encounter. With reference to squatting in this district, in 1859 he foresaw the difficulties that have since arisen ; and, with the view of preventing them, he drew up a code of regulations under which stock could be depastured on native land at the same payment per head as the licensed runholder paid the government — thus authorising squatting for temporary purposes, without the danger attending the system of leasing for a term of years. He had referred the draft to the first Superintendent (Mr. FitzGerald) and to Mr. Colenso ; but difficulties were started and nothing came of the suggestion. Reverting to letters which had been quoted by the member for Te Aute, he did not see that, since then, his views had undergone any change. It had been found impossible to stay the evil during a former government — the stringent measures they adopted .having proved wholly ineffective. How, then, could.it be expected that the present government would be more successful ? He agreed with the terms of the resolution, except that the members who brought it forward had failed to shew that the government possessed the power to deal with the question. It should also be remembered that what prof essed to be the v opinion of the country had gone home in the _hape of an Act — the Native Lands Act—legalising both direct leasing and purchasing. That Act (which, by the way, he did not himself approve of) had received the Queen's assent ; and although, so far as he knew, it had not as yet been proclaimed in any part of the colony, it might be at any moment. Mr. Russell would have had pleasure in supporting this resolution, were it not that he believed it to be premature to bring up any resolution on the subject. He believed it was the intention of the General Government to legislate upon thesubjectof the occupation of native lands ; and he was glad to state that the plains would be specially exempted from the operation of the Native Lands Act, if that Act should be proclaimed in this proviuce. The Ahuriri plains would be a-eserved for an agricultural population. He would ask the member for Napier (Mr. Colenso) why the Government had been unable to purchase these lauds 1 Under the monastic rule of that member not an inch of land would ever have been parted with to the government. No man had ever thrown more difficulties in the way of the acquisition of native territory than he had. (Mr. Colenso,— No.) Why, in 18-16 he (Mr. Eussell) received a letter from Mr. Colenso, in which he wrote that he was opposed to the natives parting with their land, because its effect was disruption, demoralization, and decrease. Ifc was cruel the persecution of the squatters in which that member had always indulged. • The squatters had al"■vays raised the position of the natives, more so than was ever done under the monastic rule. The squatters were the pioneers of tbe country, and to them Napier, owes its present position, and the settlers generally the comfortand prosperity they enjoy. Talking of squatting. he would ask one. of the members opposite" (MK Tiffen) whether he was not at one time of opinion that the whole district was not more than sufficient for his flocks t and his (Mr. R.s) ? As to the matter of the resolution itself it was unnecessary to pursue it. He would co-operate in every, attempt to, acquire these plains, but acquisition of land must in future be on a different system. The native position must be completely altered ; he must be made a British subject — his rights of property, respected, but not allowed "to be abused. With reference to the unceasing persecution of the squattey, in contradistinction to the interests of the working classes, which had always marked the career of the member for Napier (Mr. Colen-so).-!*'*..would ask what could Napier, do for itself --v^hftt .^quld -ifc.be but for the', "squatter 1- And, ■ / re'cejntljy iiad not the squatters ih these trying jfe times '^uek by their property and thus saved the Ij&proyiricie?-' And yet a fuss was made about the .^Maltry cost of a stockade at Waipukurau. But he i^Kaped some day to see the seat of 'government «:;mos.y Ifc was beautifully fitted by nature for such T^^Mpose-Hmuchimore so . than Napier a good deauklt was! well known that he had consistently .os>posed..the. occupation of the plains. When the first Superintend^ (Mr. ,;Russell) ''i had ...juse'd bis best . .ndeayoUrs to iejeotfhim, and'had- succ^ J : Qol-uso cli^n'|g^t();.the ...last; to. his ; '•., perty ? j:(MK" Gol^ngo^N;©';)^©; 1 hiah'CTdß'^if^at--''

tie on native land, to his two trades— half -a-dozen for anything heknew 1 He would say no more, but that, if the resolution Bhould be brought in at a fitting time, he would have much pleasure in supporting it. Mr. Rhodes quite agreed with what ; had fallen from the Superintendent, to the- effeot that the Council had really no power to interfere ; and the resolution, even if passed, would have very little weight. But the Council might meet, the case by passing a resolution that no compensation for improvements would be given to any squatter on native land. With that bar, and on the full understanding that the squatter broke the law at his own risk, he thought the matter might rest ■at present. But he believed the time was not far distant when the General Government would take official action in this matter, and a portion of the plains taken whether the natives liked it or not. Not by forfeiture, but under the New Zealand Settlements Act, for purposes of military settlement, and to be paid for. Then it would be found that a number of claims were set up for improvements, and, therefore, if the Government did not, he himself, at the March sitting, would bring in a series of resolutions to the effect that no such claim would be allowed. This question being settled; he thought squatting comparatively harmless. In cases he named it had been the means of opening up country, and of even indue- ! ing the natives to sell, as the rents enabled them to procure luxuries, which became in time to be necessaries, and the appetite for which grew upon them. On the part of the member for Napier (Mr. Colenso) there had been a persistent persecution of tbe squatter — a great deal of which was popular clap-trap, got up for the benefit of the working man. The fact was, that member must be abusing somebody. , As for the member for Te Aute (Mr. Tiffen) his real sentiments were perfectly well-known. As Land Commissioner he worked might and main for a long series of years to divide the country into convenient sections among a few of his own friends and class. He was now working might and main in a contrary direction, and would do the very opposite to-morrow if it happened to suit his purpose. He would rather see the resolution postponed till next sitting. Mr. Edwards would support the resolution, in • which he heartily concurred. This illegal squatting was a great cvil — a gross evil. If there was a law prohibiting it, by all means let it be put iv force ; if there was not, then no time should be lost iv getting one framed to meet the case. Mr. Rhodes would say, in explanation, that he was a member of the government at the time the prosecutions under the Native Land Ordinance were conducted. Those prosecutions were commenced with perfect good faith and the fullest intention to carry them out ; but it was fouud to be impracticable to do so. They even received hints from a quarter to be respected that it was impossible to take effective action under the Act. Mr. Colenso, in reply, would begin with the last speaker. At the time when the General Government was striving, to use the words of the premier of the day, to have the Queen's writ ruu over the length and. breadth of the land, the Council was told that it was impossible to put one of the laws in foree — when the law-breakers were magistrates. The Assembly met to pass, laws, yet a member of Council got up and said that these laws were inoperative. He was shocked at such language ; and thought that, even if the member who used the words held that opinion, he. should have kept it to himself. With regard to the remark of another speaker that it was unreasonable to expect that, because private persons could lease, the government therefore should be able to buy ; that was not his (Mr. Colenso's) meaning, but that the government should be able to do something by. way of preventing leasing. He had been asked to state howillegal squatters could be restrained. He could name, off-hand, several ways which might, although he could not say they would, be etfective. First, let the Ordinance be put in force.' What possible object could be gained by the appointment of an officer to lay informations, if it was not intended tbat any should be laid. That appointment was surely not a mere sham. It also appeared to him that the Government might have brought iv a bill of this kiud — far better than a loan bill — providing forthe taxation of squatters, and such a bill would no doubt have been passed by the Council. But this, the Government would not do. It had not even, as he had been informed in Auckland, apprised the General Government of the fact that the plains were about to be swallowed up. He remembered when Mr. Fox brought up a bill in the House declaring the future occupation of native land to be a misdemeanour until certain things had been accomplished, on which occasion he (Mr. Colenso) insisted upon its operation, being retrospective as well as prospective. He had in his mind's eye the sons of Colonel Russell and others, and did not see the propriety of letting the big sinners of the past off, while punishing the little ones of the future. It was mainly, indeed, through what he said that the bill did not become law. The Superintendent' had said that he could not reserve native land ,* but ifc was to restrain others from occupation that the resolution aimed at. It was not the action of the government that he found fauit; with, but its inaction. The Superintendent had referred to a code of regulations for. depasturing on native land drawn up by him in 1859, which he (Mr. Colenso) " had seen, and of which he approved generally. ■ But how could "they possibly be put in operation with the Native Land Purchase Ordinance staring one in the face ? Such a code could not, surely, be permitted to override an Aot of the General Assembly. The member for Clive had referred to a series of resolutions declaring; that squatters would receive no compensation; but- that was already provided for by a clause in the Native' Lands Act, that all previous contracts would bs null and void. He had been charged* by the member for Waipukurau with being eternally set 1 , against tlie squatters. He could afford *to laugh at such an accusation. What he had- written ;to Governor Eyre in defence of the squatters had long been in, the archives ,-df the" colony. With regard to his having thrown obstacles in the way of purchasing 'land; he could say that ; ; the first : offer to purchase land had-beep; made to. him; and he.repliiedthat, upon. certftin qonditions. he; .would extinguish thenativeititl^ifrbtnißaniserlto ! East Capev 7 Had.thalt of erheen^Ho^ed up none

of the troubles which have lately been felt would ever have been heard of. The squatters had been characterised as the pioneersof the province. So.they'were,.aß much so as whalers, who must give place in due time to a better class of beings. [Mi** Russell — As the squatters took the place of the /missionaries.] .-A. remark had been made upon the unreasonableness of opposing the suspension of the standing rules. What, was it unreasonable to object to do all the work of the session in one day simply that a member of the Executive^ who probably never sat at the Executive Board, might get back to shear his sheep ! The same member had gloried in having been, the means of ejecting Mr. FitzGerald when he built his mill on native land. Why did he not act with equal vigour against those persons who put sheep on the plains ? Why not take the same action against the rich squatter as the poor man with his mill 1 . A return of trespassers upon native land, called for in the session of 1862, at; Wellington, was this year laid on the table of the . House. It was well known that there were very mauy such in. the Hawke's Bay Province, yet, Upon referring to the return, he found the names of very few indeed. The whalers and other small holders" were set down with great care, but very few indeed of the large ones. The total of rental paid to the natives in this province was set down at £2,200, although ifc was perfectly well known .that,, without including recent contracts, more than £10,000 was paid, annually in the shape of rent. Again, it was in the power of the government to publish the clause of the Native Lands Act, stating that the squatter would receive no compensation. It was also their duty to inform the General Government of the state of matters here. If these things were done, and if they were found to have no effect, then the Government could bring in a bill to tax the illegal squatter. The Superintendent would, with the leave of the Council, make a pugrgestion which might meet the views of the Council without a division. Strictly speaking, he was not opposed to the resolution, as its terms reflected the mind of the Government. He was prepared to communicate to the General Government the state of mat-" ters in this province with regard to squatting on native lands, and also to ascertain, if possible, their exact intentions as to the Native Lands Act. This should be done, he thought, and this information received, before taking any further action in- the matter. He would suggest the withdrawal of the resolution for tha present. The question was then put and a division called for with the following result : — Noes— 6. Ayes— 7. Messrs. M'Lean - Messrs. Colenso Russell Dolbel Kennedy Edwards Tuke Fitzgerald Curling Tiffen Smith Rhodes Bousfield — The resolution was accordingly affirmed.