Provincial Council.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 3, Issue 129, 10 March 1860, Page 3

Provincial Council.

TUESDAY, MABCH 6,

The Council met pursuant to adjournment, Present,— The Speaker and all the Members.

Explanation,

Mr. Curling- referred, by way of explanation, to wkat had fallen from the member for Napier on Thursday, ■with regard to the sale of sheep to the government. Some time since he had been applied to in urgent terms to supply some sheep to a person in charge of a road party, but he regarded that person as his debtor, not the government, and made out his account accordingly — although, upon coming to a settlement, he found that he was paid by an order upon Mr. Tiffen. Latterly, he had sold sheep to a third party, by whom, he believed, the government was supplied, but he (Mr. Curling) had no interest whatever in the transaction. Census Bill. Mr. FitzGerald, in moving the second reading of this bill, said that his principal object in introducing it was to enable the government to obtain such statistical information, especially with regard to the number of inhabitants, as would put the Province in a position to advance a well grounded claim, during next session of the General Assembly, for increased representation in the House of Representatives. (Hear). Since drafting the bill, he had examined the Act of the General Assembly, and found that it provided for a census of the whole colony every third year ; the next to be taken on the 25th Dec. 1861. This did away with the necessity of making the Provincial measure a general one ; and he would therefore propose in committee such amendments a3 would limit its operation to the current year. It was most important that a census of the province should be taken in as short a time as possible after the Governor's assent had been given to the bill ; for there could be no doubt that Hawke's Bay was most inadequately represented in the General Assembly. There was every reason to believe that the population of the province now exceeded 3000 ; yet it had but one member ; while Taranaki, with not more than the same number of people, had three ; and the other provinces were equally well represented in proportion to their population. Hawke's Bay was far from having that weight in the councils of the colony which its position entitled it to ; and it was chiefly with the view of shewing this upon black and white that he had initiated the present measure.

Capt. Cabtee seconded the motion, which was agreed to ; and the bill accordingly read a second time ; whereupon the council went into committee upon it. Clause 1 agreed to as it stood. Clause 2 agreed to with an. amendment limiting the operation of the Act to the present year. Mr. Alexander suggested that in addition to the word " condition" the words " occupation and religious persuasion" should be used ; but on an understanding that these were deemed to be comprised in the former word, and that a column for religious persuasion should be in the schedule, the subject was dropped. Clause 3 agreed to as it stood. Clause 4 agreed to with the words " 21st day of April" filled into the blank space, and "in the present year " substituted for "in each of the years hereinbefore particularised." In clause 5, the blank was filled with the same date as above. Two amendments were moved — one, by Mr. Colenso, that the words " the said questions to be asked in a temperate and courteous manner" be added ; the other, by Mr. Ehodes, that some person be substituted for any person. Both were grounded upon acts of incivility committed on former occasions by census collectors, but were negatived as being deemed unnecessary.

Clause 6 was amended on the motion of Mr. Colenso by the interlineation of the words " and properly," in the eleventh line, causing it to read thus, — " Such questions as shall be lawfully and properly put." Clause 7 wa3 withdrawn by Mr. PitzGerald on the ground that as the Act was proposed to bo passed for this year only, and as the time for receiving claims would be over before the 21st of April, the clause was no longer necessary.

The Chairman then reported progress. Illegal occupation of ' Jsaiive Lands.

Mr. Ctxkling rose to the following motion standing in iiis name : — "That this Council is of opinion it is desirable for the public interests, and would greatly facilitate the acquisition of Native Lands by the Crown that the provisions of the Native Land Purchase Ordinance relating to the illegal occupation of those lands by Europeans should be strictly enforced."

He said that, since putting this on the paper, he had learned that such a resolution might materially affect the interests of a great number of persons in the Province ; in some cases having very serious results. And as, on further consideration it appeared to him that the matter was one to be dealt with by the General Government rather than by the Province, he would ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Mr. FitzG-ebald was sorry that the member for Te Aute had seen fit to withdraw the motion ; for there could not be a doubt that the Native Land Purchase Ordinance should be much moro strictly enforced than at present. Its provisions were being most glaringly set aside, day after day, almost within, sight from their doors ; leading to endless difficulties, if not total obstruction, in the operations of the Land Purchase Department. He more particularly alluded to the Ahuriri Plains, for the use of portions of which, it was well known, persons contracted with the natives for the payment of a certain sum, under the very eyes of the officers of the Government. He would here allude to a very general canse of complaint amongst the natives — the constant trespassing of horses and

cattle upon their lands at Pakowhai. He, in his N^ofiicial capacity, had been several times appealed' tto in tins matter by the natives, and he really did notiknow- 'what to say. If they applied to the Resident Magistrate for redress, they received for answeff that, the trespass being on native land, he had m> jurisdiction. They could not drive the cattle O2& nor could they recover damages, and they naWrally threatened to take the law into their oto\ hands. The Pakowhai plains were used

as a commonage by the inhabitants of Napier and the surrounding districts — a system which should no longer be allowed, especially as there were other runs, upon which, at a trifling expense, pasturage could be obtained. If the system of bargaining with the natives — of paying them a rental for the use of their lands — was to be persevered in, the acquisition of such lands would be long deferred, if not altogether prevented. He had already written the General Government on this subject, and he was in hopes it would authorise him to enforce the provisions of the Ordinance, and to enforce them most strictly.

Mr. Alexander, with reference to the remarks of the member for a Napier (Mr. FitzGrerald) said that it would be ruinous to Napier were horses and cattle not allowed occasionally to trespass on lands belonging to natives. There was no other land contiguous to the township available for the purpose of grazing. That it was injudicious for herds of cattle or of horses so to trespass, he freely admitted, more especially when, as happened in some cases, a valuable consideration was given for such trespass. But he maintained that in the case of persons holding runs, and others residing contiguous to native lands, it was utterly impossible to prevent such trespass. He believed it was much better, on all accounts, that, rather than permit a law to remain on the statute book which is, and must be, inoperative, ministers should be requested to obtain, during next session of the General Assembly, the repeal of the Land Purchase Ordinance.

Dr. HiTcniuGS rose to order. He believed that the motion was withdrawn.

The Speaker. — The motion for withdrawal has not yet been seconded.

Mr. Oemond seconded the motion,

Mr. Fitz Gerald apprehended that every member had a perfect right to speak upon, the motion until the question was put and passed. The Speaker having concurred, —

Mr. Alexander, in continuation, said that he had no doubt, if the present law could be fully and fairly enforced, that it would give great facilities to the purchase of native lands; but it was clear to every one thoroughly conversant with the subject that it never could and never would ba enforced ; and the greater the population the more difficult to enforce it. One great evil attendant upon such a state of things was that when the natives thus saw one law trodden under foot, they naturally lost respect for the laws generally. Further : he did not believe it would have any bad effect upon the Province, if Europeans generally were allowed to lease and occupy native lands ; on the contrary, he believed that the result would be beneficial. He could adduce many reasons in support of this, but would content himself with one. There was at present considerable jealousy of the European in the native mind. The natives had a feeling that the Government wished to oppress them — that they were trying by unjust and unfair means to coerce them into the sale of their lands, with the view of selling it again at a large profit. Such a feeling should be carefully guarded against, and he Jcnew no better means of nullifying it altogether than by leading them to take that interest in the Europeans which would infallibly be the case were they permitted to lease their lands, and to stand in the new relations to the European which would spring out of such an arrangement. A careful consideration of the subject had brought him to the conviction that the best policy for the country would be that the Native Land Purchase Ordinance should be wholly and entirely repealed ; and he might; take another opportunity of bringing forward a resolution confirmatory of this opinion.

Mi 1 . Colenso was sorry for one or two things — sorry that the member for Te Aute had not pressed his motion ; and sorry Lo see that they had not hit upon the line of demarcation between arguing for a thing as private individuals on the one hand, or as members of council on the other. On the contrary, he feared there was a tendency to advocate private interests and to let the public weal go — anywhere. Was it not notorious that every stranger who came to Napier — the moment he got on the top of the hill or borrowed a horse, put the question, to whom do these plains belong ? And when told that they were the property of the natives, was it not the- uniform exclamation, until you get these plains or a portion of them, you will never go ahead. And would any member put his hand on his heart, and say that the same was not his belief? (Mr. Alexander — suiting the actiou to .the word — I do.) He (Mr. Colenso) had just heard of ;i law that never could or would be enforced. Good God! did these words come out of the mouth of an Englishman? What w;is thereto keep it from being enforced? Was it not the opinion of the Wellington Government — of the different Land Purchase Commissioners — of G-overnor Browne — of all the members of the responsible ministry, that until these plains were acquired, the province would be more or less crawling. And how were they to be acquired save by the enforcement of the Ordinance? He, it was well known, would be the last to advocate anything to the injury of the native population ; but he strongly objected to the dog-in-the-manger policy under which the native owners would neither use the land themselves nor permit others to use it. They had heard that they were likely to be called upon to express an opinion that the Native Land Purchase Ordinance should be repealed ; but he would ask whether this would not be striking rather deep — whether the powers of the Council would reach to that. He trusted the member for Te Aute would not press the withdrawal of the motion, but would allow it to proceed.

The motion for withdrawal was then put and negatived on a division, as follows : Noes : — Messrs. Riddell, Carter, Tucker, FitzGerald, Colenso, Hitchings (6.) Axes -.-Messrs. Curling, Ormond, Alexander (3) The original motion was then put and passed.

Local Improvements,

Mr. FitzGeeald brought up the Local Im" provements Bill, which was read a first time, or" dered to be printed, and its second reading made an order of the day for Friday.

Wellington Acts.

Mr. FitzGeeald, pursuant to notice, moved, — " For the appointment of a select committee to

enquire into and report upon the various Acts of the Provincial Council of Wellington, now in force in this Province, with a view to the repeal of those that are inapplicable or unsuited to the circumstances of Hawke's Eay, and the re-publication of the rest in a single blue book." Such committee to consist of Messrs. Carter, Ormond, Alexander, Coienso, Tucker, and the mover. Report to be brought up on Tuesday, 13th March.

He had named a large committee in order that there might be a sufficient attendance at all times ; for the work would be heavy, involving an examination of all the blue books of Wellington. Of those there was only one copy in Napier, which had been lent by a gentleman in Wellington ; and therefore it was most necessary that no time should be lost in examining the Acts, with the view of setting aside those that were not likely to be called into operation here, and of re-publishing the remainder for general information. At present the people were absolutely unacquainted with the laws under which they live, and had no means of getting the information. Hence they were constantly liable to infringe laws of which, it might be, they scarcely ever heard. He did n<jt think it would be very difficult to di»tin»uish" between those that should thus be re-prinled, and those that might safely be set aside.

Captain Carter seconded the motion.

Mr. Coienso said that this was one of the most important, if not the most important subject, that had yet been before the Council ; but lie much doubted if the wort could be done this session, even if the 13th April instead of the 13th March had been named for bringing up the report. He believed that the ordinances of Wellington numbered in all over 100. Of these a good many, no doubt, might bo set aside, but he would not be prepared to vote for any one being so treated until he had read it over at least once ; otherwise, in some respects, the Province might be rendered lawless. He made these remarks unwillingly, but he spoke from conviction.

The motion was then agreed to, and the Council adjourned.