WEDNESDAY, MARCH 7.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 3, Issue 129, 10 March 1860, Page 3

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 7.

The Council met pursuant to adjournment, Present, — The Speaker, and all the members.

Geographical Map of Province,

Mr. Coienso, pursuant to notice, rose to ask his Honor the Superintendent whether any steps have been taken to procure a geographical map of the Province on a large scale, and if so, when such is likely to be complete.

He put the question from the fact that at a public meeting held some time since in Napier, the subject of such a map was brought forward, and the necessity for it unanimously affirmed.

Mr. FitzG-eeald replied that lie himself felt the necessity of such a map quite as much as any one. He had conferred with Mr. Tiffen on the subject, and they had agreed as to ifc3 size and scale ; but the work, from pressure of business in the survey office, had not yet been commenced. The map ■would be on a scale of 40 chains to an inch, and would, when completed, be four times as large as the map now usually shewn. lie thought that in 2 or 3 months it would be ready for public use. Geographical Map. Mr. Colejtso, pursuant to notice, rose to move that the Superintendent be requested to procure the geographical map of the Province to be finished as early as possible ; and that it be hung up for public inspection in the entrance passage leading to the new government offices. The first part of this resolution liad been already answered. The second embodied an idea of his own. It had boon objected that from being exposed in so public a situation, the map would be liable to injury by the malice or thoughtlessness of some ; but the same objection was taken to the opening of the Kew gardens, although experience afterwards proved that no injury was done to any of the plants. lie believed that the right feeling of the community might be depended upon, and that there was nothing to fear in the shape of disgraceful figuring or other wanton injury. Mr. Aiexandek seconded the motion. Mr. FitzGehaliD might state that the Chief Surveyor and himself had determined that the map would be as comprehensive as possible ; and that every Monday morning, all the hind sold during the preceding week would be marked oil" upon it. (Hear.) The Government would have much pleasure in noting upon the suggestion of Mr. Colenso — an arrangement which the public would appreciate, and which, he felt assured, they would not in auy way abuse. The motion was agreed too Nomination of Magistrates. Mr. Colenso, pursuant to notice, asked his Honor the Superintendent whether he possesses the power or right, (either by virtue of his office or by courtesy,) to nominate or suggest to his Excellency the Governor, fit and proper persons to fill the office of Justices of the Peace for the Province of Hawke's Bay. Mr. FitzGcERAID said that, looking at the question, he could scarcely see its bearing upon any business likely to come before the council. If; was one of that class of questions which might be put, but which had better be withheld. He had no objection, however, to reply it. He had no right whatever by virtue of his office to nominate any gentlemen to the office of Justice of the Peace ; but that his Excellency, by courtesy, would attend to any recommendations he might make would scarcely bo doubted; because in making those appointments the General . Government had no other wish, than to see the duties of the office properly performed, and the wants of the various districts of the colony sufficiently met.

Resident Magistrate for WaipuJcurau,

Mr. Colenso, ptirsuant to notice, rose to ask jhis Honor the Superintendent whether there be any truth in the report touching the appointment of a Eesident Magistrate for Waipukurau. And to draw the attention of the Council to the present state of the magistracy of this Province.

He took the opportunity of expressing a hope that members of Council and gentlemen outside would . not be led. away by the idea that because the Superintendent and himself necessarily spent

a good, deal of time in the same office, there was any underhand agreement with regard to motions or other business in council. His Honor knew nothing, till he heard them read in the council chamber, of that or any other motion that ho (Mr. C.) had brought forward during the session. In what he was about to say with reference to the state of the magistracy, he would " nothing extenuate nor set down aught in malice." He would premise that, long before any magistrates were appointed by Sir George Grey, he held the opinion that the welfare of the district — then purely a native district — depended materially upon the men selected to administer justice. And, if the necessity of good men was great then, when the country was inhabited but by savages, how much greater now, when it was being rapidly filled with enlightened Europeans. He would proceed to state certain facts, from which he might draw a good deal but would not. He would just allude to the notorious case of Hambell, who was committed for trial by five Waipukurau justices, but who was informed by the Judge of the District Court that he ought not to have been committed ; and when this poor man applied for recompense, the Judge feelingly told him that he miwli go clap- - where for advice. Three weeks before, the Crown Prosecutor had sent away the papers which should have set that man at liberty. That officer, too, took pity upon the poor wretch and gave him 10s. out of his own pocket. This money, it appears, Hambell spent in liquor at Waipureku; when he got into the watcli-house, afterwards broke out, was re-captured, and very nearly committed to gaol till the time of Mr. Hart's next visit ! — all resulting from the illegal act of the "Waipukurau bench. Another case was that of Collins, of Tuki Tuki, who was fined £100 because, he (Mr Colenso) believed, his wife, unknown to her husband, had sold a glass of grog on Sunday. He did not know the facts of this case, but he believed that one justice protested against the decision of his brethren on the bench. Then there was the case of a man in the employ of the chairman of the bench at Waipukurau, who was discharged before his term of agreement had expired. That man had obtained a summons for his master, and a subpoena for his master's neighbour, Capt. Newman. Both, he served himself, but both told him plainly they would not attend, and the case was given for the plaintiff; but instead of being satisfied, he found that Mr. Wilson, on behalf of the defendant, had applied for are-hearing of the case — which application was very properly refused. Did the matter end here? No; for now the poor man was summoned by the Waipukurau bench to answer a charge of which he knew nothing. This, even, would not have moved him (Mr. Colenso), but yesterday he met a man who lived 1-1- years with Capt. Newman, and who, upon some altercation, had been turned away without his wages for the year. He had applied to the Resident Magistrate for a summons, who had declined, on the ground of the district being out of his jurisdiction. There was nothing left for him to do, he said, but to apply to Mr. Eus sell or Capt. Lambert: but what was the use, he said, of him or any other poor man, going to them for a summons against a neighbour ? Tins made him (Air. Coienso) determined to bring the subject before the council. It had been said, the day before, that when the natives saw a law daily trampled upon by Europeans, they thought that they, in turn, might break any other law with impunity. But what was the working man to think of the law when he saw magistrates — men sworn to administer '.these laws — trampling them under foot ? He would now proceed to another part of his subject. He found from an Auckland Almanac that the justices of Hawke's Bay were 18 in all, of whom 16 were sheepfarmers — the exceptions being Capt. MacGregor and Mr. Ferguson. Of those 16, several were almost side by side in the Waipukurau district, sitting upon cases which more or less affected their own interests — trying, in short, the servants of each other. It was high time, indeed, that fresh blood should be infused into the magistracy of the new province — that person?, proper, willing 1 , not lazy, and posse? sing somewhat of the mill; of human kindness, should be added to the commission of the peace. But the gist of his ai'gunicnt was that the magistracy as at present constituted, was a caste magistracy ; and he stood there as member of Napier and would say that such ought not to be. In the reign of George the third none but clergymen were deemed proper persons to be magistrates. And, in the case of the Strakers, would the crew have got off scatheless had the jury been composed onJy of masters of vessels ? What hope was there, he would ask, for a poor man when brought before magistrates of the same caste as his muster ; for nine-tenths of the cases brought before the Waipukurau bench, were for offences committed against the interests of the runholders. When he so spoke, let no man say that he spoke against the runholder as a class. He wished them, well, but he also wished them, well in all honesty and integrity. In many respects their interests were identical with those of the other settlers, although it could not be denied that it was to the interest of many of them to have as little population as possible. Then as regarded the town magistracy, they wanted more practical, fit men. Many of the old appointments of Sir George Grey did credit to the colony at the present day ; but many more were now required. An illustration in point wag afforded by Mr. Curling going to the Legislative Council. There was an actual difficulty experienced in filling his place. Mr. Tiffen's hands were said to be quite full. Capt. MacGregor wonld make a good magistrate, but, being a military man, he might be here today, and away to-mox'row. Mr. Anderson was an amiable man, for whom he (Mr. C), had a great esteem, but he would not like to see Mm fagged by heavy work. He (Mr. C.) had hoped that, the Superintendent possessed niore power in this mat- , ter than he had, in order thafrfour or five fit town magistrates might be immediately nominated. With regard to the question he had put on the: paper — which ho had kept to the last that Tie ' might not be prevented from speaking— -he would : say boldly that no Resident Magistrat^was .wani-'^ ed at Waipukurau. Upon what ground jwas ; &•■•"'■ asked for ? What was Waipukurau ? rau proper was some two or three native hoy&lsj^fj not even a pah. .Of course the district tnoWiitliy^f: 1 that name extended over some 30 or. 40 miles j '"•:■;

but was was not the office of Resident Magistrate created solely for native districts, and where was the native population in Waipukurau ? They had not even a chief of note — the few natives there being under the thumb of the settlers. Had an application been made for Pokawa, tbere 'would have been some sense in it. At all events, if a Resident Magistrate was to be appointed, he (Mr. Q.) hoped that he would not be one of the 16 runholders. In conclusion, he hoped the resolutions he was about to bring forward would not be met by a gruff " no ;" but that those who differed from him in opinion would have the manliness to speak out. In alluding to the 16 runholdei'3, he would take occasion to state that there were many excellent men amongst them ; men whose worth

•was known and who were estimated accordingly. Having thus, according to notice, drawn attention to the state of the magistracy within the Province, he would move a series of resolutions based upon ■what he had laid before the Council.

Mr. FitzGeeald rose to order. The member for Napier, his colleague, had given notice that he would draw attention to a certain subject, but had given no notice of the resolutions which he •BcerneQ"fiow desirous of bringing forward.

The Speaeee, acquiesced,

Mr. Colenso would then withdraw the resolutions for the present, and ask the questions on the notice paper.

Mr. FitzGebald would answer the question by stating that, a short lime since, at the instance of certain magistrates in the Waipukurau county, he did make a representation to the General Government that such an appointment was necessary. But in doing so he carefully guarded himself against expressing any opinion in the matter ; he simply stated that such was the opinion of certain members of the unpaid magistracy, and left the rest to the discretion of the government. He also mentioned the name of a gentleman who was suggested as a fit person to fill the office, but he did so in the very same way. A reply had since been received from the General Government to the effect that they were not inclined to do anything in the matter before nest meeting of the General Assembly. No provision, they said, had been made for such an office, and they did not feel justified in creating it without the sanction of the House of Representatives. With reference to many of the remarks that had fallen from his colleague ('Mr. Colenso) he must say that he could not at all coincide. He thought it very objectionable to state that magistrates had trampled upon the laws, just as if such a thing had been actually done. He thought they should speak with respect of those to whom was entrusted the administration of the law. His colleague (Mr. Colenso) had said that they wanted new blood, &c. ; but it was not so easy to get new blood. Most of those who would accept such an appointment were the holders of sheep runs j they were almost the only men who had leisure to attend to the duties involved ; and without a pledge that these duties would be attended to, no magistrate would in future be appointed. He might mention an instance of this. He (Mr. Eitz Gerald) had recommended an appointment to be made at Mohaka, but the Attorney General, before acting on that recommendation, was determined to ascertain, from the mouth of the gentleman indicated, that he was prepared to fulfil the duties which would then devolve upon him. And yet there was an urgent necessity for a magistrate in that part of the province ; it being a fact that persons residing there desirous of forwarding a claim to be registered, had to come to Napier, a distance of 50 miles, to make the necessary declaration. There was a great difficulty in getting persons to take the office. He himself had been offered it two years ago and once since ; and felt obliged to decline the honor in both cases from a feeling that many valuable days would be consumed in attending to its duties. At the same time there were doubtless many who would be prepared to make the necessary sacrifices of time, and who would fill the office creditably and usefully.

Mr. Ttjceer had listened to the long and eloquent speech of the member for Napier, whose object seemed to be to bring the magistracy generally, and the Waipukuvau bench in particular, into disrepute. As a member of that bench, and one who sat xipon the case of Hambell, to which so much allusion had been made, he might be permitted to make a few remarks — he being the only member of that bench who was in a position to reply to the imputations that had been" thrown out by the member for Napier. A man was brought before the court, charged with obtaining money under false pretences. The magistrates there were no lawyers ; they had only a law book to refer to ; and in this, their other avocations prevented them from being well posted up. To the best of their judgment, and being pressed to that course by the plaintiff, they believed that they were bound to commit the defendant. They •wished to do otherwise, but believed that it was not in their power. So much for Hambell, who seemed to have excited redoubled sympathy on the part of the member for Napier by his subsequent breaking out of the Clive lock-up. To the second case, that of Collins, the member for Napier first obscurely alluded, and then told them — ■what was evident enough — that he knew nothing about it. The third case alluded to was not one of so very extraordinary a character ; the defendant was summoned, did not appear, was nonsuited in consequence, and would have to pay the money. It was a fearful hardship, in the eyes of the member for Napier, for the plaintiff in this enso to bo summoned to Waipukurau, but it was no hardship whatever, in his estimation, for the defendant to be summoned to Napier. The next charge was based upon a story told the member for Napier by some man who said he had been discharged. The imputation that the magistrates trampled on the laws Taad already been sufficiently answered by that member's colleague. It was said, or insinuated, that because a large majority of the justices of the province happened to be sheep farmers, the law was likely on that account to be less justly or worthily administered. But it seemed to have escaped the recollection of the member for Napier that the class so obnoxious to him was the one -which contained more educated .men than any other, and more men who were able to spare, the time and expense involved in

the proper performances of a magistrate's duties. While finding fault with the sheep farmer, the member for Napier had not named any other class, from the ranks of which good and proper men could be selected ; he had vaguely hinted at the clergy, but this would hardly be considered feasible. He had also suggested that appointments, should be made for Napier j but to them the same objection would apply as to the inland justices : the one would probably be connected with trade, and would have to adjudicate in cases of debt; the other connected with sheep, and called upon to hear cases of wages iv dispute, breach of contract &c. One would have supposed that the appointment of a Resident Magistrate for the interior would have smoothed down many of the didieulties that had been conjured up ; but no ; this also was denounced. It had been said thct the number of natives was small in the Waipukurau District, yet, strange to say, the idea of such appointment originated with the head of the native department. The district so designated was a very large district, although ho obnoxious to the member for Napier — why, it was not, perhaps, difficult to say. And although nominally appointed to, and perhaps resident at, Waipukurau, yet Porangahau, Pokawa, and other populous localities would all be within his jurisdiction. He (Mr. Tucker) regretted having thus to occupy the time of the council ; but having the misfortune not only to be connected with sheep, but to be a sheep farmer magistrate, he would fail in his duty did he not point out that in the speech of the member for Napier proof was utterly wanting of any lack of justice, or incapacity on the part of the country magistracy.

. Mr. Alexander would only advert to one statement made by the member for Napier (Mr. Colenso), with reference to a summons having been refused some man by the Besident Magistrate. That officer had informed the person referred to that if he could chew reason sufficient for withdrawing the case from the local court, he (the R.. M.) would grant the summons asked for, but not otherwise.

Dr. HixcnrxGS could not concur in the wholesale denunciation that had been uttered by the member for Napier. Considering the different circumstances under which the present magistrates were appointed — some through political interest, some as being men of long standing, some as being friends of JTeatherston, &c. — their elegibility was undoubted. In Napier, however, it was nothing uncommon to see people running about the streets looking for a magistrate; and on occasions when the other duties of the Eesident Magistrate called him inland, there wa3 no gentleman but Mr. Auderson to perform his duties in his absence. And now, when Captain Curling was about to take his seat in the Legislative Council, his place would, somehow or other, have to be filled. He (Dr, H.) only hoped, with all due respect to a gentleman who had now left for England, that the office would be better filled than it was on last occasion of a similar kind. He quite concurred in the necessity for an increase of the stall', although not in all the strong observations made by his colleague. Mr. Colenso would move the suspension of standing rule 27, with the view of bringing forward the resolutions to which he had formerly referred.

Mr. Fitz Gerald seconded the motion pro forma, which was agreed to. Mr. Colenso then moved the following : —

1. That in the opinion of this Council a Resident Magistrate is not wanted for the Waipukurau.

2. That should, however, the General Government think otherwise, it is further the opinion of this Council that the gentleman holding that office should not be a runholder.

3. That it is the opinion of this council that an early creation of from 4 to 6 justices of the peace from auiong the practical men of the Town of Napier, would be of much service to the welfare of both town and country districts.

He said that if he had used the expression " trampled upon the laws" he withdrew it. He applied it, if he did so, to the contemptuous refusal to obey a summons, and that from a superior court. He repudiated any " wholesale" denunciation ; he had taken good care to state that there were many exceptions. With reference to what had fallen from the member for Napier Country, he (Mr. C.) never dreamt of making a charge against the Resident Magistrata. The member ior Y/aipukurau (Mr. Tucker) had dexterously cloaked his (Mr. C.'s) true argument;, which was that the magistracy was a caste one. The Speakee decided that only one of the resolutions oould be put at a time.

Mi". Colenso accordingly moved the first, which Dr. Hitchings seconded.

Mr. Fitzgeeaxd hoped the council would not commit itself by passing any such resolution ; if it did, it would deserve a severe reprimand. It had no jurisdiction — no power whatever, in the matter. As well might it recommend a new law for the execution of criminals. Tho passing of such a resolution would simply elicit expressions of contempt to which he (Mr. E.) felt assured every gentleman present would regret having subjected the council of Hawke's Bay. Dr. Hitchings asked who had recommended the appointment.

Mr. PitzGeiiaid said that it was one thing to act as an individual, and another to act as an assembled body. Any individual had a right to address the Government upon a public question. He (Mr. F.) had, at the request of certain members of the unpaid magistracy, made a communication to the General Government ; but if the members, in council assembled, passed such a resolution as that before it, the opportunity would be taken of administering such a reproof as would make it the laughing stock of If ew Zealand,

Mr. Alexandeb was quite of opinion with the member for Napier (Mr. Colenso) that a Resident Magistrate for "Waipukurau was not required at the present time. At the same time he concurred in what had fallen from that gentleman's col-, league, that the council, in passing such a resolution, would be arrogating a power it did not possess, and would receive a good and deserved rap over the knuckles.

Mr. COI.ENSO said that his resolutions, by being sundred, were not fairly before the council j for it

wouW be seen, on reference to the second, that he quite admitted the authority of the General Government — only saying that, were the appointment to be made, it should be made from the ranks of the sheep farmer. He knew very well that he was placing himself on tenter hooks — upon the very pikes of those gentlemen ; but in saying that the gentleman selected to fill the office of Resident Magistrate, if created, should be chosen anywhere else than from the ranks of the shesp farmer, he did not thereby mean anything against the runholders as a class. They were the aristocracy of the country, and he would be the last to commit the soandahcni magnalwn. But he could not stand by and see all the power centred in one body of men ; and it would be seen by and bye who told truth — who was the true prophet. It had been said that the council had nothing to do with this subject, but was it to see about £1400 a year squandered on an all but useless office within the province, and not lift up its voice to arrest the evil? And surely, if the council could investigate matters connected with General Government surveys, it had an equal right to discuss the present question. And as to the ridicule that seemed to be so much dreaded, the laughing would rather be at anything so absurd as the appointment of a Resident Magistrate to the locality of some half-a-dozen native huts. The next step would be a similar appointment at Porangabau, if not at Castle Point. There was another pomt — the very great powers vested in the office of Resident Magistrate, —

Mr. JTitzGeuald rose to order. His colleague was speaking in reply, and had no right to introduce iresh matter.

We understood the Speakee to rule that he might proceed.

Mr. Colesso said that he had been so often called to order, his thoughts were getting out of order, and he would, therefore, sit down.

Mr. Cueli>'Gt moved the following amendment : — •" That this Council is of opinion that the resolutions moved by the member for Napier, with reference to the appointment of a EesidenS Magistrate at the Waipukurau, is one which this Council cannot entertain."

Mr. Eiddell seconded the amendment, which, on being put, was carried with only one dissentient

voice,

Mr. Coiesso then moved the second resolution, which Dr. Hitchings seconded pro forma.

Mr, OuiiOND moved as an amendment " that it be not entertained." Mr. Tucker seconded the amendment, which was put and passed.

The third of the resolutions was then moved, to which Capt. Carter moved, as an amendment — "That it is the opinion of this Council that His Excellency the Governor be requested to appoint an additional number of Magistrates for the town of Napier."

Mr. Curling seconded the amendment,

Mr. Colenso said that, as he took it, there was no essential difference between motion and amendment, but as he wished the boon obtained for Napier, and seeing that anything of his would not be agreed to, he would abandon the motion and second the amendment.

The amendment was then agreed to. Surveys by Contract. Mr. Oitircm), pursuant to notice, moved for, — " A return of the surveys that have been executed by contract in this Province, giving the surveys of Town and Suburban lands separately, and also of the expense per acre in each case." Mr. Riddeil seconded the motion, which was agreed to. Mr. FitzGeeald laid on the table the return asked for. Swamp sections in Eastings Street. Mr, FitzGeeald, pursuant to notice, rose to move, — "That in the opinion of this Council it is desirable to obtain an Act of the General Assembly at the ensuing session, enabling the Provincial Government to purchase up the rights of the present owners of the swamp sections on the west side of Hastings Street, with a view to- enabling measures to be taken to reclaim, what is at present a most unhealthy nuisance."

He said that a very great mistake had been committed at the beginning in allowing these swamp sections to be sold. They were now, unfortunately, in the hands of private individuals, and quite out of public control. That swamp — and in this he was sure his colleague (Dr. Hitchings) would bear him out — would yet cause the death of a great number of the inhabitants of Napier, if measures to fill it up were not speedily taken. Itcould not be drained ; the level was too low. There was but one remedy for the evil, — that of purchasing from the present holders, under Act of the General Assembly — say at cost with interest. That the sections were worth more, few would be found to affirm. If the swamp was purchased by government, it would be as much as it could possibly do to reclaim it at such an expense as would be met by the sale of the land afterwards. And no private proprietor or proprietors could undertake the work— it would be one of too great magnitude. This measure was one absolutely necessary, whether they contemplated the future extension of the town or the lives of human beings. The swamp was a most dangerous nuisance, and the sooner something was done the better.

Capt. Oaeteb seconded the motion, which was agreed to.

Sale or Leasing of Educational Reserves,

Mr. FitzGebald, pursuant to notice, rose to move,— "That in the opinion of this Council it is desirable to obtain from the General Assembly at its next session, an Act to authorise the ssle or leasing of the Educational Reserves in this Pro-

vince."

This motion, he said, was simply to enable the government to deal in some way with these reserves, for purposes of education. There had been created by the superintendent of Wellington under the 7th clause of the additional land regulations of 1855, That clause provided that such lands should be vested in aboard of commissioners, and the proceeds, as sold, applied to educational purposes. There were a great many such reserves, especially in Napier, where they had become very valuable, and would, if sold, realize very large sums. Unfortunately, however, no provision was made for the election or appointment of such commissioners, and it would, therefore, require 1 a

special Act of the General Assembly to enable the lands to be dealt with. The Attorney- General had kindly, at his (Mr. F.s) requestpgiven an opinion to that effect. Hence the motion put upon the paper. Capt. Cabtee seconded the motion. Land Purchase Department Surveys^, Sfe.

Mr. Oemohd brought up the report of the select committee, as follows : —

" Your committee, having taken the evidence of the Native Land Purchase Commissioner, and the Surveyor now employed directly under Mr, M'Lean, and the Chief Provincial Surveyor, beg to report as their opinion : —

That it is to be regretted that the Chief Land Purchase Commissioner should have made a change in the mode of executing the surveys of boundaries and native reserves, seeing that the former arrangement worked satisfactorily, whereas by the present one a very considerable increase of expense is incurred, and. that not only without any corresponding advantage but at an absolutely serious loss : —

1. Documents : — The loss to the Provincial Survey Office of the surveys made under the present system j whereas formerly all such surveys were added on to the Provincial Maps, and the Province so saved the expense of re-surveying.

2. Time : — The great loss of useful time to the Surveyor and to the Province under the present system while waiting for the adjustment of native squabbles — at a period, too, when Surveyors were greatly needed, insomuch that the Province was obliged to obtain them at a great expense from Australia.

3. Money : — The very much more serious expense incurred under the present system:

Therefore your Committee would recommend that His Honor the Superintendent be requested to bring the matter under the notice of His Excellency's Government, as they consider a great and uncalled for waste of the public money is now going on, which they fear will be classed as a responsibility of theirs.

Census Bill,

The Council then went into committee upon the bill. The schedule was considered, and several verbal alterations made in it. The words " Province of Hawke's Bay " were substituted for "Settlement." The words "religious sect" were objected to by Mi\ Colenso, who said he did not belong to any sect ; he would move that it bo altered to " religion."

Mr. Rhodes moved as an amendment that the words to be substituted be " religious denomination," which was unanimously agreed to.

The Chairman then reported progress, and the Council adjourned.