THE DEBATE

Evening Star, Issue 24006, 3 October 1941, Page 3

THE DEBATE

LITTLE NEW INTRODUCED BILL AT COMMITTEE STAGES On the motion of the Prime Minister, Mr Fraser, urgency was granted the passing of the Social Security Amendment Bill when the House met. The Leader of the Opposition, Mr Holland, asked how far the Prime Minister proposed to proceed with the measure at the present sitting, Mr Fraser replying that he did not want unduly to press the matter, and perhaps when the second reading was finished the House would adjourn. He proposed that they should sit until midnight or perhaps 1 a.m. Continuing the debate on the Bill, the Minister of Railways, Mr Semple, said he did not blame the doctors for trying to drive a decent bargain. There was no quarrel with the profession so far as that aspect was concerned, but in his opinion the doctors had gone further than they should in the matter. In the present debate such terms had been used by the Opposition as coercion, forced labour, regimentation, _ Nazism, Communism, despotism, terrorism, Gestapoism, etc., and they had been used in an endeavour to create uneasiness. There was not a single clause in the Bill, said the Minister, which interfered with the liberty of the doctors. It would give them better incomes than they had before, and would dispose of their bad debts. An impression bad been created by opponents of the Bill that the Government wished to sever the friendly relations between doctor and patient, but the Governmnt would not dream of doing that, because in sickness faith in the doctor had a lot to do with a patient’s recovery. Mr Frost suggested that the Minister of Health should pay particular attention to the pharmaceutical benefits, as ho considered that too many medicines of the patent variety were being prescribed by doctors. It was because social service was demanded for the community that the Bill was brought in, and if they had a section of the people who refused to give that social service. then it would he the State’s responsibility to find people or train them to give that service. DRASTIC CHANGE OF METHODS OF PRACTICE. Mr Forbes said that when it came to a question of the State saying to a longestablished profession with long-estab-lished methods of practice that it should conduct its business in an entirely different way, it was not to bo wondered at that there would bo a good deal of opposition. If the same principle had

been applied to any other section of workers he was sure their protest would have been just as strong and spirited as the doctors’ had been. The Government should have done its best to smooth away difficulties. Instead of that, according to what he had been told from the doctors’ side, the Government had come down with fixed conditions, and wished to get the profession to accept them. Under such circumstances it was not surprising that unanimity had not been achieved. Mr Forbes made a plea for the preservation of the friendly societies, and ho said ho would be sorry to see these organisations destroyed. There was also apprehension as to whether a person could select his own doctor. The Minister of Healtli (Mr Nordmeyer); A patient’s freedom to choose his own doctor is not interfered with in the slightest. POLITICAL AGITATION. The Minister of Labour (Mr Webb) expressed the opinion that the political agitation throughout the country in connection with the Bill had created a very bad impression. When the doctors had threatened to go on strike they had received the support of the Press, but if the watersiders or the miners had threatened to go on strike, every paper would have been down on them. The Minister said that in the future he would like to see medical schools opened throughout the country—something in the nature of the teachers’ training colleges, where young people with the most brilliant minds, despite their financial status, would have the opportunity of entering the medical profession. There were thousands of young people with brilliant minds today who wished to enter the profession, but did not have a chance. In the amendments which had been brought down to the Bill, a compromise had been made which would be of great financial benefit to the doctors, and the amendments had been made in the interests of harmony with the profession. The Bill in its original form, ho thought, would have been a popular measure with the people. OPEN PROFESSION TO ALL. Mr Clyde Carr, who discussed his personal experience of doctors, expressed the opinion that a doctor who could not diagnose a case should not have the right to charge his patient for doing nothing. He urged an amendment to the law to enable the sons and daughters of working men to train for the medical profession without expense to their parents, Mr Barker said he regretted Mr Webb’s allegation that the Opposition supported a strike by the doctors. Not a member of thc_ Opposition ever thought of such a thing. He hoped Mr Webb would make a public withdrawal of the accusation. He suggested that before the Bill was forced through the House talks should be held, not only with the heads of the medical profession, hut with the heads of all lodges. It would ho most unfortunate if anything was done to impair the work of the lodges. AMENDMENT WITHDRAWN.

Mr Barker then intimated that the Opposition did not intend to proceed with the amendment, which had been moved hy Mr Holland when the debate on the Bill opened on September 11, to the effect that consideration of the Bill should be deferred until after the war. Mr Barker said the Opposition’s reason for this course was because of the amendments which had been made to the Bill by the Minister of Health. PREMIER ENTERS DEBATE. In his first speech in debate on any measure since his return from Britain and the Middle East, the Prime Minister (Mr Fraser) said that if the Government had not carried, out its promise to institute a free medical service it would be betraying the trust of the people. The Government had met the doctors in a most reasonable frame of mind over a number of years, he said, and matters had been adjusted to meet the profession’s wishes. Personally, ho was convinced that the great majority of doctors did not want to continue the fight when there was nothing to fight about. He upheld the right of all sections of the community to express their views, and he had no quarrel with the doctors for doing so. He could not get out of his mind the splendid service which was being given by doctors in Egypt and the Middle East, and if he bad thought any injustice was being done to these men, or to any others who were on active service, ho would not be a party to it. Ho thought that the amendments which had been introduced to the Bill by the Minister of Health would meet the case completely. NOT OVERAWED, Referring to recent meetings of protest against the Bill which had been held in Auckland and Wellington, Mr Fraser said that if anyone thought any Government would be overawed by such meetings, then they would be making a mighty big mistake. Some of the speakers at these meetings, apart from the medical men, who he thought had been unfair in certain instances, were obviously party politicians, some of them aspiring politicians, some of them aspiring candidates, while others were perspiring candidates. These latter would have the opportunity of perspiring more after the election if it came. All these things obscured the issue and made it apparent that it was only a political ramp. No Government could give way to clamour, and he added that the great mass of remarks made were not only beneath contempt, but also beneath notice. He would still invite the medical men to think up something better than the Government proposed, because no one considered the practitioner system was perfect. NO BRIBE. Mr Fraser referred to the claim that the Government had bribed the doctors with an increase in fee, and said it was ridiculous to suggest that anyone could be bribed by 2s 6d. The amendments to the Bill had been brought down to provide a way out of an impasse. Under the Bill he admitted that the medical profession would be discriminated against in connection with right of access to the courts, but in all of the representations that had been made he did not know of one doctor who wanted the right to go to law. As a substantial part of the fee was being guaranteed, the medical profession could not put up a strong case for the right to go to the law. Mr Combs said the only trouble with the conscience of the members of the Government was that they had delayed a little longer than they should have in bringing in the legislation. He stressed the point that everybody should be medically examined hv a doctor at least, once a year, and said it was important that the workers, especially in war industries, should be kept fit. Mr Endean said everyone agreed with the principles of the Bill, hut he felt that the Opposition and the outside public had induced the Government to think a little more clearly so that a great injustice would not bo done to the medical profession. MINISTER REPLIES. The Minister of Health, Mr Nordmeyer, in reply to the dehate, said anyone who understood tho Bill knew that everyone was free to choose his own doc-

tor. Regarding the meetings of protest, he asked had the Opposition made any protest when the doctors told the friendly societies that if they ■ accepted social security funds the doctors would not continue their medical contracts? Reference had been made to the fall in friendly societies’ membership, which it was alleged was due to social security. He had asked the registrar for a return showing what was happening in this war as compared with the last war. An interesting and important fact was that the friendly societies’ membership curve since September, 1939, followed about exactly the first two years of the last war. The Minister suggested that the inference was that the effect of social security was negligible. The Minister reminded the House that in all the main centres the honorary staffs of the hospitals had become stipendiary staffs since social security was introduced. He declined to believe that that had resulted in any deterioration of the standard of service. The motion to commit the Bill was adopted at 10.25 p.m., and the House went into committee, hut before the discussion began on the short title the House rose at 10.30 p.m.