LICENSING REFORM

Evening Star, Issue 19045, 14 September 1925, Page 11

LICENSING REFORM

DEPUTATION TO PRIME MINISTER A BILL PROMISED MATTER BEFORE CABINET. A deputation from the New Zealand Licensing Reform Association waited on. the Prime Minister on 7th Aqgnet to urge that a Bill he brought down for the improvement of tho licensing system in the Dominion, and to support the inclusion in the ballot paper of the third issue of Cor- ■ porate Control. In replying to the deputation, tho Prime Minister elated, that the Government would introduce legislation, but ho could nob promise that a Bill would come down this session. The matter was before Cabinet. The Von. Archdeacon H. W. Williams, Dominion president of the New Zealand Liooneing Reform Association-, said that the deputation was most representative. Delegates had come from all parts of Now Zealand. Tho association •oaiibraccrt many members of the Anglican clergy who supported tho proposal of Corporate Control and tho general reform of the licensing system as opposed to Prohibition; the New Zealand iUoderate League, which since 19H_ had represented the organised middle section; the Associated Clubs, with a membership of some twenty-five thousand, who bad no financial interest in tho liquor question from tho point of view of private profit, and whose aolivo participation in the work of tho association sprang from their desire, to preserve their charters, and ns good citizens _to assist a genuine movement for licensing reform. Then they had tho licensed tea do in its several sections, which had joined tho movement on the invitation of the clergy who had convened the original conferences, and which slood voluntarily pledged, to tho proposals for reform advocated by the association. Ho wished to ray, particularly on behalf of tho clergy associated with the movement, that they were satisfied that the ■‘trade” was sincerely desirous of seeing the association’s proposals put into legislative form at tho earliest possible moment. Criticism had been levelled against the. " trade’s" participation in their work; but every thinking person would agree that tho sympathetic co-operation of the licensed trade was one of tho most factors in the practical application of legislative reform of tho licencing system. PROHIBITION NOT A REFORM.

Briefly put, tho objects of tho association were very plain. They were opposed to prohibition because they did not look upon it as a reform, and that its application would create worse conditions than existed. They stood for tho right of the electors to declare for a middle course of reform at the ballot and suggested that the Corporate Control proposal should taka the place of tho present third issue of State Purchase. Realising that it would take time to bring about any sweeping change, they asked for certain radical reforms of the law governing _tho present system of private ownership. They asked that the Government should carry out the promise made by the late Right Honorable IV. F. ’Massey on the 19th October, 1922, when he stated definitely that if Prohibition wore not carried at the thou approaching poll legislation would bo introduced in the first session of tiro new Parliament. Is had clearly been Air Massey’s intention to carry this out. COUNTRY EXPECTING ACTION.

The country was expecting action. Why should it bo delayed P Three separate Parliamentary Committees had made exhaustive examinations of (ho questions, and their recommendations had been placed before Parliament. While licensing legislation was known to bo contentious, it had never been dealt with along party lines. livery member had a free hand. Surely there should be no hesitation on the. part of the Government to introduce a Bril based upon the recommendations of a special committee of the House as a whole. Tho committee stages of a Bill provided a means of testing tho opinions of members on any point, and tho association was prepared to take its chance in that direction. They wee prepa rad to face a Bill at once. They asked for the immediate reform of the licensing system, and were confident that they had tho support of the. large majority of the people of .New Zealand. "Kill-PING CONDITIONS BAD.” “Wo know,” raid Archdeacon Williams, “ that, tho official Prohibition organisation is opposed to tho introduction of reforming legislation. They do not want reform, because they think that by keeping conditions ns bad as possible, they will drove people info voting for Prohibition. That is the attitude of official Prohibition, but wo do not think it is endorsed by any great-number of Prohibition voters. We cannot bring ourselves to believe, that many sincere people, who vote Prohibition in the mistaken idea that it will achieve temperance, would deliberately stand in tho way of reform of the present system.” In fact, tho recent franklin by-election had proved that tho Prohibition voters did not blindly follow the official leaders of tho Prohibition movement, in that case Mr McLennan, who had refused to answer the Prohibitionistb’ questions, war, elected by 6,05 b votes as against 2.245 recorded for Mr Montgomery, who had received the official endorse,mont of the Prohibitionists, in accordance with their declared policy. In view of ibis result, parliamentarians could surely flonk with complacency upon the empty threats of tho New Zealand Alliance., “ DRAGOONING CANDIDATES.” In connection with this phase of tho subject bo wished to draw attention to the attempt being made by tho to secure control of Parliament by dragooning candidates into giving pro-election pledges Tho association could nob stand idly by and seo the ground cut from under its feet. They regretted being forced to take action. They did not ask "for any pledges themselves; but they would bo compelled to oppose those candidates who pledged themselves to the Prohibition Parly. All that they asked was that there should bo elected a tree Parliament, untrammelled by pledges .to any organisation—„'i Parliament that would deal with licensing legislation in the interests of (ho people aa ft whole. They would respectfully suggest to tho leaders of tho political parties that they should interest themselves so far as to Feo'Uin.t (heir official candidates should not pledge themselves to any organisation on the licensing question. _By r,o doing they would avoid tho confusion of the real political issues that must otherwise cnsuo. The projection of this ono question us the major issue to decide the election of Members of Parliament was most vicious, and should bo resisted by everyone wlro held in respect tho honorable institution of our British Parliament. Tho association had determined to take every possible step to save the Parliament of New Zealand from becoming subservient to the forces of organised intolerance. Archdeacon Williams concluded with <m earnest appeal that in the intcrc'-tc of true temperance Parliament grapple boldly with the problem of licensing legislation, and, remirdlcss of vested interests on fho ono hand and fanaticism on tho other, put through such practical measures as would stand as an object lesson to the world. WISER CONTROL THE SOLUTION. Tho Right Rev. Dr Richards. Bishop of Dunedin, said that he hod been asked to ptaco before tho Prime Minister the principal reasons actuating the clergy in joining in the work of the New Zealand ■Licensing Reform Association, and taking up executive positions in tho various branches of that organisation. “Firstly, wo were attracted by the offer of a means to achieve something real and practical in the way of temperance reform,” said Dr Richards. “ Secondly, wo were opposed to Prohibition because we. believe that system to he wrong in principle, and that in practice, fia worked out in America, it is not proving a success, but is productive of serious evils from which wc desire New Zealand to be free. It lias long been tho feeling of many of us that the solution of the liquor question in New Zealand does not lie in the direction of Prohibition, hut in tho direction of the encouragement of temperance by education, and moral suasion and the. application of more practical and wiser laws for the control of the licensed trade. We firmly believe in the right of the people at a referendum to bo given an opportunity to express a desire for reform as between Continuance and Prohibition. But wo do not think tho present issue of State- Purchase and Control is at tliis stage acceptable in New Zealand, and wo support the substitution of Corporate Control because wo believe jfc to bo a practical measure in the interests of temperance, more suitable to the conditions of this country. THIRD ISSUE SHOULD BE RETAINED. “I desire to make it clear that we are strongly opposed to the suggestion that tho third issue should be done away with and the ballot paper confined to the two questions only of Prohibition or Continuance. Even with its defects, the existing third issue has provided ten opportunity for demonstrating that a large section of the electors aro asking for reform. This cannot fail to have its effect upon our Icgisla-

tors and upon those engaged iu the liociifod trade. We believe- that the removal of the ihinl issue would cousliUtio a set-back to the growing movement towards (rue tcmpeimice in Now Zealand. We ask that i w people bo given an opportunity to vole on live proposal of Corporate Control, and M think that (he request for the sptern to bo tried for nine years is a. perfectly fauone. We also feel that the constant enslocation of tho affairs of the country ni connection with the triennial liquor rcfei' onclum is not a. good tiling. Its effect upon the existing licensing system is that it tends to drive the bettor ©lass of publican out of the business, and. by rendering the business precarious, tends in some degree to induce illicit practices. Wo certainly think that an improvement upon the present system is desirable, and we ore glad _ to bo able, to assist a movement that nm» practical amendments to our licensing system in tho interests of temperance, and w« (rust that Parliament'will deal with wis question without delay.” CORPORATE CONTROL EXPLAINED. ■Speaking as one of the four members of the Auckland Diocesan Synod who ha-d been responsible for tho promulgation of the Corporal e Control proposal, the Rev. Canon P. E. Janies (Auckland) said Hint they had boon actuated by the desire to do_ everything poafdblo by means of legislation to promote temperance in the Dominion. They had also been actuated by conscientious objections to the policy of Prohibition, and by Ihe refusal of the General Synod, in spile of repealed attempts made by Prohibitiouisls, to accept Prohibition vis a solution of tho evils of in tempera nee. They wore also convinced that the proposal ot Corporate. Control, being more satisfactory and practicable than State Purchase, would gain overwhelming support in a comparatively short space of time. _ They also desired to assist in reorganising, within the church and- among religious people generally, the advocacy of a policy of true temperance. It was admitted by all except convinced Prohibitionists that the. solution of this important question, so far as its material aspect was concerned, lay along tho lines of efficient Government control. Many surcnrsful -experiments were being made in this direction in other countries. Briefly put Corporate Control meant that (ho wholesale licensed trade and the ownership of licensed promises would be merged in a corporation over whHi tho Government would havo control. Tho actual financial interest of the. Government, in tlm corporation would be represented by 20 per cent, of the total share issue, which would at first bo allotted to the Government as unpaid shares to be paid for out of dividends as and when earned. All dividends would bo limited to 10 per cent., and the profile; earned over and above that amount would bo devoted to national purposes. The Government would always have a majority on tho board or directorate of ihe corporation, which would act as the sole authority for the issuance of pormits to sell liquor. They, as promoters of tho proposal, however, recognised (hat some time must necessarily elapse before such a, system could e>o far commend itself to the electors as to secure a clear majority mid they therefore joined with other bodies in pressing for reforming amendments in the law governing tho present system. They trusted that legislation would be introduced at oiioe, and that it would provide for Corporate Control being submitted to the electors. They would strongly urge that the Government should not yield to the solicitations of those who were endeavoring to eliminate the “middle issue,” along the lines of which middle course they wore convinced the ultimate solution of tho liquor question lay. VIEWS OF MODERATE LEAGUE. Air W. Perry said that he had been deputed to explain the views held bydie Now Zealand .Moderate League. That organisation had been formed in 1314 to provide an articulate voice for the moderate public on tho liquor question. They_ believed that their efforts had resulted, in directing the thoughts of _ tho people of New Zealand towards efficient control as the I rue solution of tho difficulties surrounding tho licensing question._ They could safely claim to have materially assisted in saving New Zealand from being subjected to the hazardous experiment of Prohibition. That Prohibition was a. hazardous _ experiment was shown by the present position in the United States, where, after five years of its trial, the position in regard- to crime generally and to drunkenness was infinitely worse than iu 1919, before Prohibition came into force. Tie quoted figures published by tho Anti-saloon League in support of inis coiiteulion. The lowa, branch of the Aiil.isfltoon League had also issued a report, in which it said that “violation of the Prohibition laws ranged from almost onon pale of intoxicants over the bars of saloons in many cities to ‘canned heat jags in lieu of something better.” THE LESSON OF CANADA.

Another lesson was provided by Canada. That British Dominion had tried _ Prohibition, and now province after province had abandoned .Prohibition and adopted systems of supply under Government control. The Premier of Quebec, the Hon. A. L. Tasclier.m, had recently written to Mr D. M. Findlay staling that lie wan pleased to be able to say that former opponents of the control legislation were now among llio.-e who acknowledged its remarkable results. Those who had formed tlm. Moderate League in 1914 found several' separate and definite causes for the unfavorable features surrounding the linen ring system in New Zealand. Tho first was tho insecurity _of tenure created by the constantly-recurring triennial poll. It was obvious that the fear of extinction must, hare a bed effect upon the individual engaged jq the business. The second was tho fictitious values created fey trafficking in licenses. This would bo mot by the Parliamentary Committee’s recommendation that tmasters should not be. allowed under three years. The third was the limited powers at present cont erred on tho -elective Licensing Committees. Titovheld that tho licensing authority tbnuldi havo full powers to investigate, the terms and conditions under which licensees were to occupy licensed premises, and the right to refuse to grant a, transfer or renewal if it was satisfied that tho conditions were prejudicial to tho conduct ot tho business in tho public interest. Tho fourth point was tho need for Retting up a special department or a, branch of an existing department, which would bo specifically charged with the duty of supervising the manufacture, importation, amt sale of alcoholic liquors and all matters in connection with tho laws relating thereto. They wore convinced that the successful administration of the laws governing the existing system of private ownership depended entirely upon specialised control by a. central head. POSITIONS OF CLUBS. Mr M. A. Carr (vice-president of the Associated Clubs of Now Zealand) apologised for the unavoidable absence of Air C. P. Skerrc.tt, K.G., their Dominion president, and said they wore pleased to associate theme-elves with tho representations made by the deputation. Club members bad alwaye been on the side of iempcrauoe reform. Some years ago they had realisedthat it was necessary lor them to bcoomo organised in their own ini,erects as well, and to lake an aclivo part in tho movement for licensing reform in order that the whole question should be put on a more satisfactory basis from tho public point of view. They bad reviewed the whole, licensing question from time to time and had made representations, many _of which they were glad to f-oo had been included in the recommendations of tho Parliamentary Committee. ll© deprecated the tremendous waste of public and private money and human energy that had been, involved in the conrtanUy-rccuvring polls that had been hold for over thirty years with the same answer. The best Interests of the country would ho served by an -extension of the period between lie polls. Tho insecurity of tenure that at present existed was responsible for the lack of adequate accommodation in some parts of New Zealand-, and this seriously affected an important section of their chib membership—those business men who were compell-odl to travel. The associated clubs in their conferences had unproved of the substitution of Corporate Control for the existing third i.-suo of State Purchase, and they fell, confident that the institution of the system would bo- of untold benefit. They had joined with the Licensing Reform Association because; they felt that the efforts of all organised bodies should be directed towards improving present, conditions. OPINIONS.OF THE TRADE.

Hr A. S. Duncan (Christchurch), freaking on behalf of the wholesale trade, said that it was the. sincere desire of the trade that Parliament should deal with licensing legislation at once. Prom the material side theirs was the body most _ affected hy changes in legislation. “In joining in this request for amending legislation, wc have been subjected to much criticism at the hands of our opponents,” said Mr Duncan. “ They contend that reform should come from within the trade itself t but the answer to that is that the community many years ago assumed direct and special control of the trade through the _ 'Legislature, and it is only through the Legislature that reform measures can be made operative and effective. We as a licensed trade are not singular in this respect. The, Statute Books arc full of laws designed to protect the public from unaoruptdoua traders and to

protect the traders from unfair dealing ° lie with the other,” Tho trade did not condone abuses, but they wished to join in every effort to raise their business to the highest standard, and' they were confident tht tho proposals agreed to by all the bodies forming the New Zealand Licensing Reform Association would, if carried into effect, bring about such a- satisfactory condition of affairs that the liquor question in New Zealand would be settled! for all time. They held that tho third issue should be maintained. They considered tho Corporate Control proposal to be practicable in every way.

o I IP PORT OF LICENSED VICTUALLERS,

Mr P. Cnylo, .president of the Now Zealand Licensed Victuallers’ Association, said that, after carefully examining the proposals that were being advocated by tho deputation, they had decided to support them because, as practical men engaged in the business, they looked upon them as practical reforms. They would inoan increased restrictions, but they were prepared to- submit to that if it met. the wishes of the people upon whoso good-will the continuance of their business depended. The trade was ‘anxious to do nil in its power to raise ihe standard of accommodation throughout, the country, but with tho existing uncertainty of tenure practically nothing could bo done. It must bo recognised Unit uncertainty ns_ to the future must havo a. demoralising effect upon the conduct of any business. Tho Licensed Victuallers’ Association hoped that tho recommendation of the Parliamentary Committee that the period between ih.% polls should bo extended to nine years would' be given .effect to. He urged that legislation dealing with tho whole question should bo introduced at ohm. “Wo recognise,” said Mr Coyle, "that a Licensing Bill ia a very contentious subject, and that our opponents, whom wo know to he opposed to reform, will endeavor to include features in tho legislation unfavorable to us as ,a. trade; Imt wo are prepared to face that danger and to rely upon the wisdom of the members of the House to pass into law a measure that will be reasonable to u« and in tho best interests of tho people ss a whole.” THE PRIME MINISTER'S REPLY. A, BILL PROMISED. “If my reply- is short,” said tho Hon, J. G-. I loa.IiCH, iu replying to the dcputa-lion, “please do not take it as being discourteous. There, is no doubt in my mind that, while two factions are squabbling about whether they will have Prohibition or liquor, ihe public is suffering. For thirty years it has been a. question of whether there should be total Prohibition or Continuance under existing conditions. I think any reasonable person will say if there a rep ills they- should be righted, because you might go another thirty years and go from bad to worse. Those are my personal views. Whether they please or displease is not a matter of greai, consideration to me, but it is right that tho public should know. “ You ask me to bring down legislation this year in accordance with the promise of the late Prime Minister that a Bill would 1m submitted for members of Parliament to deliberate upon. lam unable to inform you wf.elher a Bill will be placed before Parliament this year. As a matter of fact, Cabinet is considering the question at the moment. 1 havo not had an opportunity of going to tho country and 1 asking tho country whether it ibulks mo fitted to lead a navtv in Parliament, or whether I am fitted to bo tho loader of a Government, or whether the Government I represent is (satisfactory to the poonlc. That is one point ’which'l think must affect tho position io -ome extent. I will say this: that, apart altogether from the promise ol the laic Prime Minister that Parliament should have an -opportunity of considering licensing legislation. 1 Think I can say quite definitely that Parliament will have the opportunity of considering .legislation for the^ improvement of licensin? laws in New Zealand, i f no!, during fir's Parliament, then in tho future, if Ibe group I represent is returned t,o Parliament. If we are unable to bring down legislation tins session, then nest session Parliament will have nn opportunity of e.fm.-'iihrini a. Bill, and that Bill will bo on lines that 'have been suggested,—[AdvT.J