THE DEFENCE SYSTEM

Evening Post, Volume CX, Issue 41, 16 August 1930, Page 13

THE DEFENCE SYSTEM

SUSPENSION FOR ONE YEAR

BILL PASSED BY HOUSE

In. moving the second reading, tho Minister said that the work of the officers and n.c.o. 's of the Department had been so well done that the country had many thousands of men who bad completed their Territorial training, and had been transferred to the reserve. So successfully had the work been carried out that New Zealand was in a position of being able to ease up in military training, and in that way effect a large saving at a time -when economy in all directions was a pressing necessity. • . • .'•■■■ ■ REASONS FOB CHANGE. The first reason for the change being proposed in defence policy, the" Minister continued, was the urgent necessity for economy, the second the strong feeling in favour of world-wide peace, and'-the opposition to compulsory military service that- had grown up in the last.iietfr years in most civilised eoun- / trierf. :'. ' ■ ' : The Minister considered that, if New- Zealand or the Empire were in danger at any time, the difficulty would hot be to induce men to take up arms, but to keep back a sufficient number to carry on essential industries at home. Those vrhtt -spoke of New Zealand being, in a .defenceless -position, if compulsion were either suspended or abol-' isheS," either forgot or were belittling, the spirit - and patriotism of the people. In the Dominion there were thousands of trained Territorials, the majority of whom, he was satisfied, would if the need arose at once volunteer for service, and in addition /there were thousands of returned soldiers, many of whom would be both willing and able to offer their services. CAUTIOUS POLICY. The had been raised as to why compulsory military service should not be abolished altogether, and . tho Minister - said his reply to that was that,-the question of defence was.so important, and the difference of_ opinion respecting it so great, that it had teen thought .wiser to merely suspend •compulsory service for a year, rather than abolish.-, it. altogether.. That would, enable the. public to give, the subject full consideration;-and''■tesfc-the effect of "suspension. In the opinion of many qualified to express an opinion the matter was-one in which haste should be made slowly. "It must not be assumed," Mr. Cobbe continued, "that the suspension of compulsory training, and the consequent necessary retirement of . a considerable number of our permanent officers and men means the abandonment of our defence system altogether. The real truth'is far from that. What we propose really means a curtailment of unnecessary expense, and at tho same time the retention of 'a' number of highly-trained officers and non-commis-sioned' officers, who will form the nucleus of a" defence force, and whose services would be at once available for the training of troops should the necessity ever arise.' Provision will also be made for the encouragement, support, and efficient drilling of any volunteer corps that may bu trained in the Dominion. School Cadet corps will receive the same practical support as at present.- ' . . Our proposals, if given effect to, will provide a scheme of defence ' amply sufficient for the present requirements and Empire obligations of the Dominion, so far as land defence is concerned, at little more than half its present cost. " . FINANCIAL SAVING. The Minister said a considerable financial saving would result from the change in land defence policy. Tho average annual expenditure on land defence and aviation during ,the past five years had been £470,749, while in addition an. average of £55,617 had been spent on the same branches by the Public Works Department, making a total average expenditure of £526,----366. '•';■"• The expenditure proposed for tho current year was £275,000, in addition to which there would be £15,000 spent by the. Works Department, practically all on the aerodrome at Hobsonville. Those estimates showed a saving of £195,749 on the average for . defence, £55,000 on. the Navy, and £40,617: being tho average spent by the Public 'Works Department, making a total saving of upwards of £291,000.' ' Under existing arrangements, the Minister continued, the army ordnance branch and the army pay branch, for dealing with stores and accounts, were administered by the defence authorities, at a eoßt of £45,000 a year for salaries. That arrangement might possibly be justifiable in time of war, but in peace time the duties could bo carlied .out. by the civil branch of the Public Service, under tho Public Ser : vice .Act, That should effect a considerable'saving in expenditure, and it would be carried out.

."EXPENDITURE NOT JUSTIFIED."!

The Minister, in concluding, said: — I maintain that no sensible man under existing conditions can justify an annual'expenditure of upwards of £i,f)OO,edo. oa what we term "de-; fence," tut is really a system for the training of. a-force to be ready for active service oversea' at short notice. Taking all tliese facts into consideration, the. Government felt that it would not be doing its duty itjt. continued, in the face of de< creased income, increased unemploy-ment,-and a marked change in public sentiment, to maintain in its entirety our present system of compulr sory military training.

In the opinion of the Minister, the most regrettable feature in connection ■with tho, retrenchment was the necessary retirement of a number of officers who had given the country faithful service. The question of pensions would he dealt with by ttie Public Service Superannuation Office. The changes proposed to be made would benefit New Zealand. Tho country would not be loft defenceless, but economy would be combined with efficiency. Should the Empire ever be in clangor, New Zca|tad*« «ras would be as readg as ever

A saving of nearly £300,000 is the anticipated result of the Government's defence retrenchment policy, according-to the explanation given,by the Minister of Defence (the Hon. J. G. Cobbe) during.the second reading debate on the Defence Amendment Bill in the House of Representatives yesterday. The Minister ma4e it clear that the temporary suspension of compulsory military train-j ing did not mean the abandonment of the defence system; actually niinecessary expenditure would be curtailed and a number of highlydrained officers and h.c.o.'s would be retained to. form the nucleus of a defence, force -whose services would be immediately available to train troops in the event of war. Exception was taken to the Bill by members of the Reform Party, but Labour members enthusiastically supported it, although expressing the opinion that the Government's proposals did not go far enough. The Bill was passed.

to.do their duty. They had not degenerated,' they had not lost their courage, and they would willingly servo as volunteers. BUYING A STEAMER TICKET. Mr. P. Waits (Reform, Clutha) said that all agreed it was nndcsirablo to liavo a repetition of war. He believed that tho Defence Department should stand a reasonable share of tlrt) cuts, but he disagreed that, because men were willing to go to another war, they should cut out military training. The Minister of Defence had retreated into the deepest dug-out he could find, and had left uo one at headquarters. One of the equipments for the two divisions was given free and tho other was bought at half-price. Ho regretted that the Goyeriiment was so hard up that it had to sell necessary equipment in order that the Prime Minister could buy. his steamer ticket for the Imperial Conference. Mr. D. G. Sullivan (Labour, Avon): "That is a. nice thing to say about the country," Mr.. Waite: "I will say it again." The Liberals in England before the war had said that ther. would bo no more war, and would not prepare for it They were now having a similar experience in New Zealand. ThL' Government might say that soldiers could get equipment in England, but many of the soldiers in the last war never reached England. Some of them had to defend the' Suez Canal. ■ Neither the Labour Party nor the Minister knew whero the next war would be. It might be in the North-west of India, or it might be in the Balkan States. Was the Defence Department making any provision for gas attacks whici the soldiers would get beforo they reached England?.. Mr. W. E. Parry (Labour, Auckland Central): "We are getting them now." . NECESSITY FOB DEFENCE.

Mr. Waite: "1 have not time' to deal with the Labour Party to-day." He knew as much about tho League of Nations as any member of the House, and he would point out that the League recognised that some form Of deience was necessary for all countries., Both the Country Party and the United Party were in favour, according to their platforms, of adequate naval and' Territorial defence, and the Labour Party stood; for a voluntary system. Tho Reform Party stood also for an.adequate system.- He would like to remind the Labour Party of a statement of the Bight Hon. T. Shaw, who, when discussing the theory that Britain should considerably reduce her defence system and thus induce other nations to do the same, said that "unfortunately facts confound theory." All tho nations that subscribed to the Covenant of the Leaguo of Nations recognised the necessity for adequate defence, and

, et New Zealand with no great navy was going to curtail its land forces.

Mr. C. A.' Wilkinson (Independent, JSgmont): "We will have plenty of generals.''

Mr. Waite: "We will have a lot of generals, and we will be like the Unit-

ed Party in this respect." The whole of the Swiss Alpine manoeuvres at the present time were being concentrated on a possible attack by Italy, and those who studied the position would know that war was by no means impossible in Europe at the present time. At the Naval Conference Franco had stuck out for some .guarantee. Apart from mounted rifles he did not think that a voluntary system would work in New Zealand. The Hon. W. B. Taverncr: "Will you indicate why it will not work in this country?" "A FAILURE." Mr.. Waite said that the system had been a failure in other parts of the world. They had had experience of the system before in New Zealand, and in Australia at the present time they could not get men to take up soldiering. The men .stated that employers would not give them leave. It had .0 be remembered that . there were unpatriotic employers in every country in the world. One of the reasons that had been advanced for the suspension of the present system was the necessity for economy, but a Volunteer force would be expensive, and they would not get efficiency. Under the old Volunteer system they could not get 40 per cent, of the men to attend a three days' camp, but at present the percentage was over 90. The defence of the country was a duty, and should not b< left to the whims of the people any more than the paying of income-tax should.. How much money would the Minister pf Finance receive if the paying of incomo-tak were voluntary? He asked that the House should be supplied with more details of ihc expenditure on defence. For instance, the Defence Department paid a largo sum of money to the Railway Department for the carriage of men to camps, and the cutting out of the present system meant that the railways would not get this money. He would like to tnow the allowances paid to officers and men. Then there were the accounts for food and fodder, and the clothing account. All theso items provided work for a larg<. number of people, and thus the economies proposed by thq Government might have serious consequences at the present timp. Those critics who said that the Territorial system was useless did not know what they were talking about, but he was quite prepared that the whole qucs tion should be investigated by a small Commission,' including an independent officer from England • and two New Zealanders, who were not members of the Permanent Forces, but who had distinguished themselves in the war. He insisted that one of the Commission should be an English expert, and was sure that siiclv a Commission would bring down a valuable scheme for tho adequate defence of the Dominion. NO VIRTUE IN COMPULSION. Mr. W. J. Jordan (Labour, Manukau) agreed that it would be a good thing to secure advice of an officer, but the difficulty would bo the appointment of a suitable officer. It was not essential that a Territorial force should be a compulsory force. Mr. Jordan congratulated tho Minister on the introduction of the Bill, and said it "was at least one sign that they wero getting awaj from the Reform Party and

all it stood for. . There was no virtue in compulsion. It -was said the officers were efficient; if they were they had an excellent opportunity of showing it by organising a voluntary force. The Reform Party prohibited tho canying of arms, but at the same time imported millions of rounds of ammunition. Mr. Waite had not dealt with tho Bill, but had devoted his time to recounting his own military experiences. One could almost imagine him singing "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow." (Labour laughter.)

Mr. A. M. Samuel (Reform, Thames): "Laughter from the fighting men."

Mr. Jordan said there was nothing in the Bill to prevent volunteer effort; in fact, there was still provision for the compulsory training of boys, but not training of a military nature. His experience went to show him that the majority of the men attending camps were keen, and would attend even if the compulsory system were abandoned. He regretted that the Bill was only to operate for one year, and in. Committee he would move to amend that. There were many regiments at Homo which would break' uj. if a system of compulsion were suggested. Up to the present the Volunteer system had not been properly tried out, for the reason that the units had been starved by the Government. 1 'FALSE ATMOSPHERE.'' Mr. W. P. Endean (Beform, Parnell) said the abolition of war was a long way off. An effort was being made to lull the world into a sense of security, and a false atmosphere had been created by the many war books which had been published. Voluntary defence was unjust and undemocratic, f Mr. Jordan was apparently very jealous of the fact that Mr. Waite wa,s a he-man. Mr. Endean said he was glad that there was to be, no reduction in naval defence. A Volunteer force would not have tho scientific training necessary for war, and if they ever became involved in battle they would be lee? like lambs to the slaughter. His experience was that the Volunteer was not up to the standard attained by Territorials. Mr. W. E. Barnard (Labour, Napier) said a large number of people in New Zealand who were keen on tho retention of tho compulsory system were of tho stay-at-home variety. All members would agree that under existing conditions some form of d'efendo was necessary, but there was no excuse for scaremougering. Ho did not think the world was moving towards-,war, but rather towards peace. Although he welcomed the Bill, he thought it was open to certain, criticism. The Government would have been bolder if it had scrapped the compulsory system altogether and relied entirely on a Volunteer system. The Labour Party was not opposed to an effective system of defence, and there was still provision for that in the main Act.

Mr. Barnard considered the Bill was in a small way a contribution towards the peace of the world. The real enemy of the country was not a foreign Power, but the spectre of poverty. The Hon. ■. W. Downie Stewart (Reform, Dunedin West) said that he was astonished at the reasons for the Bill. If the Minister of Defence had taken his share' of the reduction of Government expenditure it would have been all right, but it appeared that this important Department had been made-'to suffer tho whole of the cut.

the Hon. P. A. de la Perrello: "The Department of Internal Affairs was cut down by £15,000." A United member: "What about the railways?" Mr. Stewart said that the Minister had built up his argument on the fal lacy that to ensure peace one must prepare for war. Would the Minister apply that argument to the British Navy? The Minister had stated that if war broke'out the men of Now Zealand would volunteer as one man, and, Mi. Stewart added, that if they were not trained, they would- be as effective as one man. PRIVILEGE OP EVERY MAN. Mr. G. R. Sykos (Reform, Masterton) said it was the privilege of every man to take up arms for his King and coun try, and only a craven would fail to do it. Such was the state of the world to-day that the leading statesmen had little confidence in the future, and even Mr. Ramsay MaeDonald had found it necessary to make large appropriations for defence. New ; Zealand was shirking her responsibilities to tho Empire, for he had no hesitation in saying thata Volunteer force would ;not prove effi-' cient. OBLIGATION KEPT. The Minister of Railways (the Hon. W. A. Veitch) said the Bill did not do away with New Zealand's obligation to the Mother' Country; if any Government endeavoured to do that it would have no chance of maintaining its hold on the Treasury benches. Tho Bill did not relievo any New Zealauder of his responsibility to fit himself for his duty in connection with tho defence of his country or the Empire. During the war those who had previously been compulsorily trained had to gc through exactly the same course of training as anybody else. The object of the present Bill was to test out the Volunteer, system.

The Leader of the Opposition (the Eight Hon. J. G. Coates): "Is that so? That is very important."

There could be no possible risk in abandoning the system for one year, as they already had a large number of men who ,had been trained, and on. top' of that there were a large number of returned men who would be available to train recruits. If it was found that tho Volunteer system was not satisfactory, they could easily return to the old svstern. ''

A Reform member: "That's too thin."

Mr. Veiteh:'"Thanks very much for the kindly compliment." The Minister agreed that there should be no •falling off in New Zealand's contribution, to the defence of the Empire, and there was no provision in tho Bill for that. There was a full and complete realisation of our responsibility to tho Imperial Government, he said, but it could not be argued that the cessation of training for one year would have any bad effect. It had been said that the Defence Department was tho only Department economising, but that was not right, because every Department was economising. The Government realised that there was an ever-present danger of war. VALUABLE TRAINING. The Leader of the Opposition (tho Right Hon. J. ,G. Coates) said the settling down process after the war was a very critical period. It was wrong to say that Territorial training was of no value in war, and in this connection Mr. Coates quoted General Russell, who he described as one of the greatest soldiers of modern times in New Zealand. There was no doubt that the Territorial system helped New Zealand to play its part worthily during the war. , . , He was surprised to learn from ' the Minister of Railways that tho object of the Bill was to give a trial to the Volunteer system. Was it the Labour Party that was demanding a Volunteer system? At the last election the Labour Party had urged a Volunteer system, whereas the United Party had definitely declared itself for compulsory military service. The Minister of Public Works (the Hon. W. B. Taverncr): "Not, at all." Mr. Coates: "For the maintenance of the Territorial force. . I am beginning to wonder whether the Minister of T)c: fenco should hold liis high office. Is he a pacifist?" Now Zealand could not afford to scrap everything at the presont time. If the Government would only say it stood for a Volunteer system, they, would know where thoy stood,

to the Bill.

MOKE UNEMPLOYED?

but instead of that, they were making alterations which might or might not; wreck the whole of the existing system. A Government should be very careful before it did anything that was likely to have the effect of destroying a system which had been in operation fov so many years. He thought the Government would be justified in setting up a Commission to investigate the delonce system. He knew the Government had been criticised for setting up Commissions, but in this ca ß c they would be justified. Mr. Coates asketl what the policy of the Government was m respect of naval defence. _ Mr. Cobbe said two B class cruisers would bo maintained, and the avmtion side would also be brought up to date. Mr. Coates asked the Minister if he had worked out different alternatives as to staffs and costs. H;« J» " more unsatisfactory system m the whole world than the voluntary system.

MINISTER IN EEPLY. Replying to the debate, Mr. Cobbe and aviation would be attended to also The members of the Government were iust as interested in the defence of New Zealand and the future of the country as any other member of the House.

-The Minister denied that «* Government was introducing the Bill m order to retain a hold over the Labour Party. He had had no conversation with the Labour Party m regard

So far as the investigation suggested by the Opposition was concerned, there were plenty of officers in New Zealand capable of advising as to the needs ot the situation. It was the intention o± the Government to stand by the bill as it had been introduced. . The second reading was agreed to. On the short title, Mr. A. Harris (Reform, Waitemata) asked if the Government had decided on its future defence policy. The Government was to be condemned for the manner in which it had carried out the alterations in the defence system. He was sorry he could not congratulate the Government on the Bill, but he could congratulate the Labour Party on the hold it had over the Government. Mr. Fraser: "Very generous." Mr. A. Hamilton (Beform, Wallace) asked what wonia be done with the horses belonging to the Defence Department.

Mr. A. M. Samuel (Reform, Thames) said that he wished to know what would become of the • men who would be discharged as the result of the Bill. Were they, going to swell the ranks of the unemployed? Did the Government also contemplate getting rid of the whole of the ammunition? If they had no ammunition they would be' ineffective whether they had a voluntary system or not. It was. like. teaching an armless man the art of boxing. The Minister stated that the Bill would operate for one year only. What the future would hold he could not say. The Government had been urged in many quarters to abolish training altogether, but the Government, would not do that. The horses required would be retained and those not wanted would bo sold. He could not say how many men would be displaced and nothing was giving him greater concern than these men. Those in the ordnance and accounts branches would be transferred to other departments of the. Civil Service. Some of the staff might be retired under the special superannuation. Mr. D. Jones (Reform, Mid-Canter-bury) reminded the Government of its election pledge to maintain the Terri-J torial system, .

The Leader of the Opposition said that he intended to divide the House on clause 3, which gave the GoyerjiorGeneral authority to. establish a voluntary system of training. The Reforml Party did not object to tlio suspension of the defence system for one year. In 1922 the Reform Party had reduced the Defence Vote from £500,000 to £285,000 by temporarily suspending camps. The Reform Party objected to the introduction of a voluntary system without a thorough inquiry.

Mr. Waite asked what would bo saved by cutting out night parades for cadets.

Mr. Samuel asked what was being j dona for those who were being rendered unemployed by the curtailment. How many men in the Defence Department's ! service were being dismissed! j ! A LOT OP SECRECY. I Mr. 11. S. S. Kyle (Reform, Ricear-i ton) said there seemed to be a tremendous lot of secrecy about the Government's, proposals, and he supported Mr. Samuel's request. 'He said that the Reform Party had reduced tho Defence Vote to almost the same figure as tho United Party was doing, but without putting any men on the unemployment irfarket. He asked if the volunteer Naval Defence Force was being abolish- | ed, for he thought that was one section of the Defence Forces which could be abolished.

_ Mr. Cobbe,' replying to general questions, said that if volunteer corps weroi formed, the Government would certainly encourage them. It was quite impossible to say how many men would be dismissed. Quite a number of adjustments had to be made, but ho gave an assurance that the dismissals would be as few as possible. _At_ midnight Mr. Coates called for a division on clause/three, which gives tho Governor-General power to recognise voluntary organisations for the purpose's of military training. The clause was rotained by 32 votes to 17. The Bill was put through its remaining stages and passed.