A LAND LOAN

Evening Post, Volume C, Issue 87, 9 October 1920, Page 5

A LAND LOAN

COMPULSORY PURCHASE QUESTION

SETTLEMENT OPERATIONS

THE MONEY REQUIRED

'Die Discharged Soldiers' Settlement Loan Bill, to borrow £6,000,000 at five and a half per cent., was passed by the House of Representatives yesterday.

In moving the second reading, the Prime Minister said that the purpose of the Bill was to provide money which would continue to be required for soldier land settlement. The money would not be used for any other purpose until the soldiers had been ■ settled and provided with what they required in the way of stock and advances, etc. Mr. Mitchell: "What about houses?" The Prime Minister said that the policy of the Government was to en-, courage the building of houses rather than their purchase, and the money re quired for that purpose would be provided. At the close of the last financial year there was a surplus of approximately two and a half millions. As Treasurer he had to use part of that for another purpose, but he expected by the end of the financial year to ba able to repay it, and then the money would be available for soldier settlement. A SHORT-TERM LOAN. Proceeding to explain the provisions of the Bill, the Prime Minister said that the amount of the loan was six million, and the rate of interest five and a half per cant. The term of the loan had to be settled by Cabinet, but it would proba,bly be for not less than ten years or more than fifteen. When money was dear it was best to make the term of the loan short. Provision was being made for two and a, half millions pounds' worth of debentures being set aside for payment of death duties. On the two previous occasions when parts of a loan had been set aside for this purpose the whole of the money ha-dl been taken up, and he thought they would have the same experience this time. The compulsory provision made the amount of the compulsory subscription equal to one year's land and income tax, instead of three years as previously. He would not have inserted that principle at all but for ths fact that this was really a, war loan.—it was expenditure arising from the war. This was the last of the compulsory loans, for there was no other war in eight, and in his opinion war waa the only justification for compulsory borrowing. He did not think that it would be necessary to put the clauses into operation, because the interest, security, and terms were so good, and there was the same patriotic reason for subscribing ths,t applied with previous war loans. The establishment of a depreciation fund by contributions from the Consolidated Fund not exceeding .£50,000 a year was a new provision. That sum would be set aside for the purchase of stock of this loan if it fell below pax.

Mr. Wilford: "It is good business for tlie country to buy its stock 'when it falls below par." Mr. Massey: "It is good for the country and for the investor." Mr. Wilford: "The Wellington City Council has been doing it for y««rs." TRANSFERRING FUNDS. 'Mr. Massey said that it had been provided for in some of the latest British, loans. The Prime Minister also explained the provision in the Bill authorising the transfer irom the Consolidated Fund to the Discharged Soldiers' Settlement Account of sums not exceeding twelve and a half millions. On the sums transferred interest would be paid at fonr per cent., but the money so transferred would not bo regarded as part of the public debt. This was a formal proceeding, but it was more than a book entry. They had spent nearly twenty millions of accumulated funds mainly in soldier settlement. That appeared as a liability, though in reality it was an asset and ( it did not put the position in a true light. The effect of it being counted as part of the public debt was that the Treasurer had to find a very large sum annually as sinking fund.

The Prime Minister 'explained how the New Zealand debt stood (reported elsewhere), and went on to say that there was a very general impression that we were going to have a depression before long. There were signs of it in other countries, and if the purchasing power of our principal customers was affected we were bound to feel it. The market for some of our principal products had fallen—he was alluding mainly to wool —and was lower than it had been for some time past. The Honj A. T. Ngata: "It will not 6e for long." IN OUR OWN HANDS. The Prime Minister said that he hoped it would not. He did not think prices would ever go back to what they were before the war. Our future lay in our own hands, and if we showed industry and economy, increased our production, brought idla lands into production, and made' productive lands more productive, we would not suffer severely. '

A member: "What about secondary industries?"

The Frime Minister said he was not one of those who believed in. relying solely on primary industries. They should encourage primary industries and secondary industries, but if within the. next quarter o£ a century they were supplying their own requirements in secondary industries they would have done very well COMPULSORY PURCHASE NEEDED. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. T. M. Wilford) said that the country was perfectly solvent. Our great amount of private wealth afforded a big margin for the country to deal with if required. No voice would be raised against doing the best for the soldiers, but he questioned whether the best was being done for the soldiers with the funds at their command. The country was well enough off to make the raising of this Joan not a difficult matter, and he believed it would not be. necessary to put the compulsory clauses into operation. In the event of the loan being over-subscribed, the Government might, as Dr. Thacker had suggested, allow the balance to be advanced to 'the local authorities, at the same rate of interest as was paid to the investors. He condemned the failure of the Government to take land compulsorily. He did not believe that one estate had been taken, though a clause to enable this had been put in the Land Act, 1915.

Mr. Massey : "It was a good lever." Mr. Wilford: "Good window-dressing, rather." In introducing the. Bill the Prime Minister had said that lie proposed to take the laud under the Public Works method. The Prime Minister had boasted of 20.000 subdivisions, but had jiuvfcF fcstm aWe tg *<ty h«w n«my ««tt< gfifs that meant, 'Xha J£gd that. !«$

been taken for settlement had been taken by private treaty, settled by the Purchase Board, and approved by Cabinet. He did not know how much had been paid, but great prices had been asked. He quoted a statement by the Commission of Crown Lands in Canterbury as to the extortionate price asked there by some of the landowners. In some cases the prices asked compared with the Government valuation as follow : —Price asked £145,000, valuation £69,000 ; price asked £37,000, valuation £17,000; price asked £15,284, valuation £8880; price asked £58.320, valuation £24,598.

Mr. Massey : "But those prices were not paid. The estates were not bought." Mr. Wilford wanted ,tc> know the rea.sons why the compulsory provisions for the acquisition of land lor soldiers had not been applied. He asserted there was land in Wairarapa suitable for soldiers; and if the Government initiated a polioy of compulsory acquisition, the Wairarapa people would compel the purchase of two blocks ill the Wairarapa owned by two men without children. Representatives of the Returned Soldiers' Association had interviewed him about it. They said that 260 soldiers were on the books of the Wairarapa organisation asking for land. Mr. Wilford quoted Mr. Massey's remarks in 1615 regarding the Government's intention to take land for soldiers compulsorily if necessary, and he referred to the provisions in the Act of that year to enable this lio be done.

The Hon. D. H. Guthrie : "There is no necessity to take it compulsorily." Mr. Wilford : "If one- property was taken by the Government, they know that the Wairarapa properties I have referred to would also have, to be taken."

Mr. Massey : "A most unworthy suggestion."

The Hon. W. Nosworthy: "Would you. take land from men even without children who have made it what it is out of a bush settlement?"

Mr. Wilford : "Yes." He would give them sufficient for themselves. No individual should stand in th« way of settlement. That was the principle of. thei Lands for Settlement Act. It was the principle of acquisition of land for soldiers. One or two individuals should not be allowed to hold lands against soldier settlement. How much land had been compulsorily acquired in the Gisborne district? It was a crying shame that land could be withheld, and that thia Government would not pui into operation the compulsory provisions of its own Act. THE ESTATES PURCHASED. The Hon. D. H. Guthrie (Minister for Lands) declared that Mr. Wilford could not know what lands had been acquired in the Wairarapa. At the present time the Government was going into the mat ter of what properties could be- compulsorily acquired there. He- had not heard before the number of soldiers quoted "by Mr. Wilford as waiting for sections in| Wairarapa. Mr. Massey : "What are the 1 particulars?" Mr. Wilford : "I can' furnish them." Mr. Massey : "Tell us the men." Mr. Guthrie said that altogether the Department had dealt with the claims of 15,000 men. At present over 7000 acres were awaiting reading facilities, and there were other blocks to be dealt with as soon as they had the facilities. More men had been put on land since the war than in the previous twenty years.' It was nonsense to say they were not settling men on the land. Ho had a return before him of the estates purchased, Mr. Wilfordi: "Why don't you take more compulsorily?"

Mr. Guthrie : "If, we did, the soldiers would have to pay more." Altogether 295 estates had been purchased for soldiers. One of the Wairarapa estates mentioned by Mr. Wilford ha.d been turned down by the Government, because id could not be cut up. Otno had been offered,, but at a price. If it had been acquired under the Public Works Act, they would not have been "able 1 to look at it." Id Gisborne land had been purchased' for the soldiers, anci in the Dannevirke district (cited by Mr. Wilford) also. . Negotiations were in train for another block at Gisbome. The people did not know what the Government had done for the soldiers. Reverting to Wainarapa, Mr. Guthrie said that twienty-nine estates of an extent of 60,000 acres had been purchased there for soldiers^ and 184 had been settled. The Government had from the first done its best to discourage the purchase of forms by soldiers', and to encourage the cutting up of Large estates. That, to a greater extent, perhaps, was the policy of tha Government to-Hay. Ii had also been the policy to endeavour to settle the men in the districts to •which I;hey belonged. At the same time soldiers had desired to bo provided for iD other districts. Altogether 295 estates had been acquired, of an area of; 487,273 acreii, coating £5,----253,196. The numbe/ of subdivisions was 1945. ■ SOLDIERS' VIEWPOINTS. Mr. G. Mitotall (Wellington South) congratulated the Department, and especially the Repatriation Section, on the results accomplished. Ec quoted statistics to show that in recent years the number of people in the country had diminished, while in the cities it had increased. In spite of the subdivisions of land quoted, the settlers were not increasing to any extent, and it seemed that farmers were merely selling out and going to live in the towns. After urging the more rapid settlement of soldiers by compulsory acquisition, Mr. Mitchell said it was peculiar to hear the Minister describe how well the soldiers were doing, and yet to read the evidence of farmers before the Butter Committee that farming would not pa-y unless butter was sold at 2s lOd a lb.

Mr. Mnssey : "Are you going to pay them 2s lOd?"

Mr. Mitchell: "Not if I know it—not to enable-them to sell out at a big value and como tc live in the cities." There were other people besides those on. the land to be considered. He said it was iv the country's interest to out up the large estates. Was the owner of large areas, who had not gone to the war, the only one who had the right to the warinflated prices? The large estates should be taken, compulsorily. Mr. V. R. Potter (Roskill) said he was against going in for the compulsory acquisition of estates while Native and Crown lands were idle. Large estates were producing something, no matter how little. Replying to criticisms of the Government, he said that the men had come back faster than had been, believed possible, and it was impossible to settle them all at once.

Mr. B. M'Cailum (Wairau) criticised the section of the Bill permitting the Minister for Finance to buy up a certain quantity per annum of our own stock. Mr. Massey : "The Imperial Government does it." Mr. M'Cailum: "I don't care what the Imperial Government does." He said gambling in stock in this way was not wise. Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne) complimented the Government on its proposal to give power to the Finance Minister to buy up <New Zealand stock. He thought the Government would be wise to delete the subclause providing that all securities purchased by the Minister shall be forthwith cancelled and discharged from the public debt. The Government should turn the stock over as often as possible. Mr. G. Witty (Riccarton) argued that landowners should be taxed \ipon the value they placed upon their properties when approached on behalf of soldier purchasers. There was very little land valued too high by the Government, P«t very little ihut was asaass«d. i,O(j low by the ownerg,

SAUCE FOR THE GOOSE. Ms. A. D. M'Leod (Wairaiapa) defendisd the Wairarapa against the attacks of the Leader of the Opposition. He undorj stood that a_ petition had bees 'circulated! for the cutting up of one property referred to by Mr. Wilford, but not a dozan soldiers had signed it. An individual' who was prominent in securing names for the petition had sold bis owi> land at about double its pre-war price, and waa now anxious that the compulsory clause should be made operative In regard to other peoples' land.

Mr. L. M. Isitt (Christchurch North) supported the compulsory acquisition of land for soldiers. It was a moral obligation imposed on the State if provision of land could not be made in; any other way.

Mir. W. S. Glenn (Rangitikei) commended the work done .by the Government, in the face of difficulties created! by the fact that the soldiers were repatriated quickly. Mr. D. Jones (Kaiapoi) said the liberals had discouraged the prosecution of the Government soldier settlement policy, and the Government was to be congratulated on the courage with which it had gone forward.

Mr. R. W. Smith (Waimarino) urg«d that provision should be made for asaisting soldiers already on the land. The Hon. D. H. Guthris : "That suggestion is being considered at present. Mr. Smith also urged that land bo settled after a flying survtey had been made.

Mr. H. Harris (Waitemata) said that if it was found that the soldiers couldi not pay their way in the future, the; lands would have to be revaluedl, and thte rent reduced.

Mr. J. R. Hamilton (Awarua) defendl--ed the men on the land, who had donte more for the soldiers than many of their critics.

Mr. M. J. Savage (Auckland West) advocated compulsory purchase, because it was not right that the men who would not offer their laud at a reasonable price should escape. Mr. O. J. Hawken. (Bgmont) considered that the subdivision of many large! estates would be so expensive that tha Government could not undertake it. The Government was doing the best thing in compelling the subdivision by taxation. PRIME MINISTER REPLIES. The Prime Minister, in reply, referring to a statement by Mr. Isitt, asked what on-earth had the taking of land compulsorily to do with keeping down the price. Mr. Isitt: "Take it once, and see ffate effect on the others."

The Prime Minister said that the price had always to be fixed, after hearing evidence. As a matter of fact, compulsory purchase had been dropped, because it was a dead, value. They had to go through all the forms of giving, notioe, gazetting, etc., before the case came before the Court.

Mr. Jones: "Then the lawyers come in."

The Prime Minister said that the compulsory purchase aroused a man's fighting instinct, and' he scoured, the country for witnesses. This compulsory taking of Plaxbourne, he thought, cost something like £50,000. If they had had to' depend on compulsory purchase for. soldier settlement it would not have been done in this generation. There wouldl not have been judges and lawyers enough to takfl thle cases. If they wanted to get land! let them pass the Bill now before the 1 House to increase graduated tax. But where were all the big estates that were talked of ? There were some, he knew ; but the majority of the big estates were inferior sheep country, carrying about a* sheep to ten acres. \The big estates that he knew in the Waikata and in Canterbury in his youth were nearly all in small holdings, where they were suitable for it. _ He agreed that since the land was being sola at too high prices, but if they could put the soldiers' land on the market it would return a profit of several millions. He admired tine soldiers for the way in which they were tackling their work, and be believed most of them would make a success of it; but if trouble were tc come, it would come from placing unsuitable men on the land. They had to be more careful than ever in the future. Referring to Mr. Wilford's statement that if compulsory purchase were started two estates in the Wairarapa would have to be taken, the Prime Minister said this implied that political influence was being used to prevent the cutting up of land. Mr. Wilford said his statement could not be so construed. He quoted from his Hansard proof the exact words. The Prime Minister said that if Sir Walter Buchanan were referred to, no 1 man had done his duty to the country better, either before the war or after. He had originally 15,000 acres, but, within the past few years, he had disposed of about 10,000 acres. But in the country sometimes extraordinary things were done, and he knew one man had been canvassing the country to try and compel the purchase of another block. The second reading was agreed to, the Bill was put through Committee, and! passed.