HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Evening Post, Volume LXVIII, Issue 97, 21 October 1904, Page 7

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

The House continued its sitting after we went to press yesterday. EDUCATION ACT. When the Education Act Compilation Bill came up for its third reading, Mi. Graham pointed out that the compilation was not quite accurate. In clause 56 the present Bill provided that the Board's accounts shall be audited by "an auditor to be appointed by the Governor," whereas the Public Revenues Act provided that they shall be audited by the Audit Office. The Minister for Public Works moved to re-commit the Bill to enable the Audit Office to be inserted in the clause. This was agreed to, the Bill waa recommitted, and the proposed amend-, ment made, together -with a new clause proposed by the Premier providing that all the provisions in the Bill shall be subject to any provision bontained in the Acts from which it was compiled. The Bill was then Tead a third time and passed. NATIVE LAND DUTY. The second reading of the Native Land Duty Abolition Bill was moved by the Premier, who said it was a- matter of abstract justice that it should be passed. Seeing that native lands were now to be made subject to full rates, the necessity for the duty had passed. The amount involved was from £6000 to £8000 a year. Replying to the Leader of the Opposition, the Premier said they would have to borrow a million and a half or tyro million pounds to make the native lands fit for settlement. Even if there was free trade in native lands those who got the land would find that for the most part ifc would require a very large expenditure to make it fit for settlement. He believed in some cases native land was blocking settlement. In such cases there would be no harm in acquiring the land, safeguarding the interests of the natives. If, he added, the Maori Coun<rils were enabled to borrow money under the Loans to Local Bodies Act for putting the land into a^fit condition for roading, he believed they would have a good report to make next year as to the progress that had been made in bringing native land into cultivation. The second reading was agreed to on the voices, and it was subsequently put through Committee and final stages. NEW ZEALAND LOANS. In moving the second reading of the New Zealand Loans Bill, the Premier said it wfis intended to do away with the necepsity of having in every Loan Bill a large amount of machinery. That machinery was provided in this Bill, and it would apply \o aB. future loan Bills. The Public Accounts. Committee had almost unanimously passed the Bill. , In explaining its provisions, he pointed out that power was given to raise the full amount of any loan, over and above the cost of raising it. At present, a loan might be, for instance, for a million, but the exact) amount raised ,was, owing to the cost of raising, considerably less. Further, the Stock Exohange had said that loans would not bo quoted unless there was public notification. The New Zealand Government had been in the habit of selling debentures over the counter, and power was taken < in this Bill to publish in the London Gazette the amount of such issues. Mr. J. Allen said the Bill was not merely a machinery Bill, and he regretted that the Public Accounts Committee had not had tftne to carefully compare it with the existing law before considering it. It wa« also regrettable that a Bill which made important alterations in the existing i law had not been brought Aovm when the j House had little time to consider it, and that its introduction was left Over until it was difficult for us to go on the London market. As to the Priblic Accounts Committee, the vote on the Bill Was purely a party vote in regard to one particular clause, and did not express anything but a party opinion. The limit of seven years for short-da^ed debentures was done away with by the Bill; they could be for any period, and another new provision was that the whole or any portion of ar loan might be raised from any Government Department. At present there were limitations in that respect, for instance, the Government Life Insurance could not invest more than one-fourth of the moneys standing to its credit in Government securities. It was open to doubt whether that provision would be overridden by the present law, and he did not think that the Government should have any such power as it now pioposed to take. The result might be that the funds of the Post Office and the Life Insurance Departments might be so tied up in Government securities that they would not be liquid when required. His chief objection to the Bill was the clause that provided that the full amount of a loan could be raised, apart altogether from expenses. That was an entirely wrong principle, and would not operate to the good credit of the colony. If the clause passed, the colony would be misled, and it would be injurious to our credit. Ifc was giving a power to increase the debt beyond the amount mentioned in the authorisation. Our crfcdit did nob stand so high at Home that we could afford to play with, it in this way. Again, the Bill was retroactive in regard

to certain of its provisions. One of those •was clause 16, providing for endorsement of debentures for renewal. That extended the power of the Treasurer to raise money in anticipation of debentures becoming due. The power soaght' was that the Treasurer should have the power to raise money "at any time" previous to* a debenture becoming due, in anticipation of its becoming due. That meant that they might have two lots of debentures becoming due, and thecolony would have to pay interest on the two lots of debentures. The indorsement for renewal could also be made at any time before a debenture became due, and pledge a rate of interest for farmore years than a Colonial Treasurer ought to have power to pledge it. • He also objected to clause 18, which, provided that when securities are disposed of in order to provide funds, to, redeem outstanding securities the interest payable on those securities shall be charged in the same manner as the interest'payable in respect of the outstanding securities.- What, he asked, was the meaning of the Bill? It was to give these extra powers with regard to- borrowing that had never existed before, and so as to obviate the necessity of putting them into the next Loan Bill. The Colonial Secretary, replying to these criticisms, controverted the suggestion that the Public Accounts Committee had dealt with the Bill in a party spirit. As to the possible injury that might be done to the Life Insurance Department, he said the Act governing the Department could not be overridden by this Bill, unless that Act was specially repealed. As to the clause providing for the raising of the exact amount of the loan, irrespective of expenses, he said that after the loan had been raised to the amount authorised, tho cost of raising would be ascertained, and the loan agents would raise scrip to the amount of those charges. The proposal was ,made in good faith, so that the Government should.be sure of getting the face value of the loan authorised. With regard to payment or renewal of securities at maturity, and the proposals with regard to indorsement of debentures at renewal, it was, he urged, in the interests of the Treasurer that he should at any time before the maturity be able to extend the loan at the existing rate of interest if he had information that at the date of the maturity there would be a stringency in the money market, and so save the colony very large sums by way of interest. The more the Colonial Treasurer was tied up the more the moneylenders could force high rates of interest or discount from him. Similar powers were held by Colonial Treasurers in several other countries having, large finnn- j cial operations. The rate of interest would require to be put in each Loan Bill, and would have no place in this Bill. It was, he urged, not desirable that they should draw the strings too tightly round the Colonial Treasurer and strangle his efforts to do the best he could for the colony. Mr. W. Fraser thought the proposals in regard to raising the net amount of the loan might be an ingenious way of concealing from the House the actual cost of raising the loan. Mr. Hewies asked why, if this was merely a machinery Bill, the machinery in the Loan Acts of the past few years had not been enacted? Instead of that they found in this Bill important alterations from the provisions in those Acts. As to the provision regarding the raising of tho net amount -of the loan, he pointed out that the Colonial Treasurer could raise money ostensibly for the purpose of paying the charges of the loan and invest the proceeds for the relief^ of a fund which might be in need of assistance. Further, he thought that Parliament should be consulted as to the terms on which large loans were renewed, but by this Bill the Colonial Treasurer had power to renew apart altogether from the wishes of Parliament. A limit should be. put on the rate of interest. In the course of his reply the Premier (who had been absent from the House the last hour or so of the debate) again declared that this was merely a machinery Bill. In regard to the clause giving the Colonial Treasurer power to raise the exact amount of the loan authorised, he said in a million loan they would only be borrowing £1,100,000, and in raising the extra £100,000 they would be able to accurately gauge flic cost in fixing the amount of the scrip issued. He went on to urge the necessity of the Colonial Treasurer being given latitude in regard to financial matters and being able to take advantage of circumstances advantageous to the colony. The second reading was carried on the voices, and the Bill was subsequently committed. At Clause 4, enabling the loan to be raised in whole or in part from a Government Department, Mr. J. Allen asked the Premier to accept an amendment providing that the clause shonld not override the provisions in any Act limiting the amount which a Government Department may invest in j Government securities. + The Premier sajd he had no doubt that the .clause would override the law relating to, investments by Government Departments. ' I Mr. J, Allen thereupon moved the amendment he, had suggested, but it was negatived by 29 v^otes to, 1-5, and the .clause passed. The point was made by Mr. Herriea in Clause 5, "moneys to Be paid into 'ap- 1 propriate account," that the interest received from investments should be paid into the. Public Account and form part of the Consolidated Fund. He moved to amend the clause in. that direction. The Premier contended that the provision, was unnecessary. The amendment Was lost by 25 votes to 17, and the clause passed. In Clause 6 Mr. J. Allen moved ' an amendment to provide that the loan to be raised should only be the amount of -the authorised' loan, and not the actual amount, plus expenses, as proposed by the clause. — Lost by 26 votes to 18 In Clause 16, providing for the payment or renewal of securities at maturity, Mr. J. Allen moved a proviso that the renewal or endorsement should not be made earlier than twelve months before the debenture became due. The amendment was lost by 3b to 15, and on the motion of the Premier a new sab-clause was added providing that in every case where money* are raised under this section for the purpose of paying off or renewing any securities, the moneys so raised snail bo applied exclusively m paying off or renewmg those securities, and defraying the costs, charges, ana expenses in so doing : Provided that nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prevent the temporary investment of such moneys pending their application to the purpose aforesaid. The Bill passed through Committee without amendment, and was read a third time and passed. WEIGHTS AND MEASURES. The Colonial Secretary moved the second reading of the Weights and Measures Act Amendment Bill, which he said was necessary in order to bring the metric system contemplated by the Act of 1903 into conformity with the English system. The second reading was agreed to without debate. CARRINGTON AWARD. The Carrington Compensation Award Satisfaction Bui was read a second time. UNIVERSITY DEGREES. The second reading debate on the University Degrees Bill was resumed by Mr. J. Allen, who urged that it should not be proceeded with this session, but be referred to the Senate for consideration.

After further debate, the Premier eaid the Senate had advised the Government to introduce the Bill. Tho second reading was carried on the voice*. * PUB.LIC HEALTH. The Minister for Public Health, moved •the second reading of^the Public Health Act Amendment Bill," which is designed to remedy a, technical defect in the existing law. COUNTIES ACT. The Counties Act Amendment Bill, which has already passed the Legislative Council, was read a second time withoutdebate. It is designed to remove doubts as to the power of newly-constituted counties to borrow money by way of overdraft during the first year of 'their existence. The House rose at 2.10 a.m.