PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, 7th September.

Evening Post, Volume XV, Issue 211, 8 September 1877, Page 2

PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, 7th September.

The Speaker took the chair at half-pant two o'clock. — After a number of questions had been answered, the Provincial Laws Evidence Bill (the Hon. the Attorney-General), and the Sale of Food and Drugs^ill (Mr. Wason) were read a first time. — The debate on the motion for a committee to inquire into all transactions in native lands in Hawke's Bay, with Captain Russell's amendment thereto, was resumed. — The Hon. Mr. Whitaker explained that, according to the motion passed the previous evening, the letters referred to by Mr. Ormond were to be laid upon the table of the House, provided that the consent of Mr. Russell (the writer) and Mr. Liicke (the recipient) could bo obtained. Mr. Russell not only absolutely refused to ghe his consent, but threatened to

take legal proceedings against him if he gave them up. He (Mr. Wbitaker) wished to know what course he should adopt under the circumstances. — After some discussion, the Speaker ruled that as the letters in question had been made the basis of most serious charges against au honorable member, and the House had ordered these letters to be laid upou the table, it would be most improper to proceed without that order lwing fulfilled. — Mr. Gisborne, Mr. Rolleston, Mr. De Lautour, and Mr. Stout objected that as the order of the IIou»e exlircisly required the cousent of Mr. Russell, :uid tli.it. c msent had Ijc-u refused, it would \ic a violation of private rights to make the letters public. — Mr. Hislop and Mr. Bees *]>oke, and then Mr. Pyke said the honor of the House bad been outraged by a Minister of the Crown reading private letters surreptitiously obtained, and such an oftence could only be properly punished by expulsion from the Ministry, from the House, ttud front the society of gentle-* men. No gentleman would have acted rfs the bon. member for Clive had done ou the previous night. He was utterly ashamed that such a thing should have occurred in the Parliament of New Zealaud. Once that House was a model to the Assemblies of other Australian colonies ; now, after the debate of the previous night, they imist hang their heads iv shame. — Major Atkinson contended that the letters were now, both tie factd, and de jure, before the House. — Mr. Gisborne moved the adjournment of the debate, until the required consent of Mr. Russell could be obtained. — Mr. Stout wished to move that the prfpers bte returned to the Government until the conditions of, the order of the Hoiiso had been fulfilled.—^Ttte Speaker ruled that the papers Itftd been laid upoti tbo table by the Government, and mast Be treated as Government papers. — Mr. Whitaker said he had brought forward the letters as private papers, and in noway as Government property. — Mr. Af ontgomery advocated the letters being given up to Mr. Whitaker ; while Mr. Donald Reid wished to have them read. — The Speaker rend a letter from Mr. Hussell, protesting against the letters being read ; and under these circ'itastantfes he ruled that the letters were not before the House, and could be taken back by Mr. Whitaker. — Sfr. Travers supported the adjournment of the debate. Me strongly condemned the action of Mr. Ormond in redding the letters, and suggested that, at any rate, the extracts he had used sfrodid be furnished to Sir George Grey. He feifilnded the tiotise that the real Question at issue was whether a committee should be appointed to inquire mto native land transactions in Hawke's Bay, and it would be vrell to adjourn the debate until the House bad time to cool down. These personalities might then be eliminated. — The motion for adjournment was then put and negatived. — Sfr. Karaitiana Takamoana charged Mr. Ormond with acting wrongly with regard to some of his property. The lease of a large block was not explained to the natives, and they did not know that the land was to be ploughed up and improved, so that if tlte natives conld not pay for the improvements when the lease expired, the land would tall into the possession of the man to whom Mr. Ormond had transferred the lease. Mr. Karaitiana mentioned other blocks of land in which Mr. Ormond was concerned, and in which he alleged the natives were robbed. He next attacked Captain Russell for his share in the Hcretaunga transaction, declaring that that was a swindle. The oflly man the Hawke's Bay natives could trust to was the Hon. H, R. Russell. — Mr. Seymour said it would be impossible for a select committee to inquire into all the land transactions in Hawke's Bay. But this was not now the only Question, forhon. gentlemen had made charges against other hon. gentleman, which must be tnvesti?:ated. He therefore proposed to strike out of he motion the words " all dealings with uative lands by landed proprietors in Hawke's Bay," and insert instead " to inquire into the allegations which have been made in this House against the Hon. Mr. Ormond; also all allegations made against Sir George Grey; also certain alleged improprieties in carrying ou law-suits in Hawke s Bay." — The amendment was ruled out of order. — Sir George Grey first referred to the great difficulty of governing the colony when he was Governor ; touched upon the Education Act; and then came to the statement of Mr. Ormoud that the colonists at one time placed on record, in resolutions, the fact that their Governor did not the truth. This was the first time he had heard of any such resolutions, and, if they were in existence, he never had been afforded an opportunity of replying to them. For many years they had not harmed him, and they would not barm him for the short time he had now to live. Next he took Sir Donald M'Lean's charge relative to a block of land in the Taupo country, repeated by Mr. Ormond. This land was not his own ; bills were drawn upon him without his authority; and in the end he thought be did his duty in standing firm, and refusing to submit to extortion. If wrong had been done, why not make that wrong public ? Why not take it into the Courts of law 1 With reference to the statement that he assisted land speculators to obtain a large block of laud near Wanganui, and demanded and obtained a share as payment for his exertions, he was sorry he could not give this charge such a complete denial as the last. He could only contradict one portion, and that was but a small portion, of that statement. That Governor's name was not Sir Georgo Grey ; it was possible the rest might have occurred to another Governor. He remembered one attempt to settle some country, and he held a letter in his hand from Col. Whitmore, giving a history of that attempt. To keep the natives in check in this province, he devised a settlement near Wanganui. A company was formed to buy a large block of land, Mr. T. Russell ; the Hon. H. R. Russell, Mr. Cox, and the Hon. Mr. Whitaker were directors. That attempt fell through ; and the letter he quoted from, written by a gentleman who knew every detail of the transaction, distinctly stated that at no time was it ever understood or supposed that he (the speaker) was to have any interest in thcland, his assistance being prompted solely by a desire to promote the settlement of the interior. After defending Mr. Rees from the charges made against him, Sir George proceeded to show that Mr. Ormond had misquoted and misrepresented his words. He opposed the Royal Cqm mission offered by the Government, as it was impossible for the natives to avail themselves of such an expensive mode of obtaining justice. An inquiry such as that suggested in Mr. Seymour's motion would be the most satisfactory to all parties concerned. — Sir George spoke for an hour and a half, in a most temperate manner. — Mr. Sutton said that every year these Hawke's Bay land transactions occupied much of the time of tho House, and he should be glad if by a Royal Commission or any other means these charts could bo disproved once and for ever. He repeated much of Mr. Ormond's speech, without the personalities. — Mr. Rowe thought the whole affair should be placed in the hands of the Supreme Court.— Mr. Stout, in the course of a powerful speech, attacked the New Zealand Times for its one-sided, partial, unfair, and habitually untruthful Parliamentary reports. If the charges of Mr. Ormond were true, the hon. member for Waipa and the Attorney-General stood in the position of accomplices to Sir George Grey's villauv. If Sir George had accepted a bribe, Mr. "Whitaker bad offered that bribe.— Mr. Whitaker denied that he was connected with the transaction in ?^-* W t, ay '~I Th ??' L continued Mr - Stout* Mr. Whitaker should have years ago exposed the whole transaction, and not have left it to be deduced from private letters. He read evidence taken before the election committee in Hawke's Bay, to prove that the Native Department became, at the orders of the Government, little better than a tool in the hands of the land-sharks, and passed on to Mr. Justice Richmond's report relative to the Heretaunea block, to show that Mr. Sutton was himself largely concerned, and that his conduct was strongly condemned by the judges— The araendmeut of Captain Russell was then negatived on the voices.— Mr. Whitaker moved an amendment embodying the views of Mr. Seymour. He referred to the Piako Swamp and Waikato coal raining transactions, refuting charges with reference to them, made against him by Mr. Rccs. He would not, for private reasons, say anything about his connection with tho land sale referred to by Captain Holt, but he must say something of* the Taupo transaction, referred to in Colonel Whitmoro's letter. Until this session he did know that Sir George Grey had anything to do with the Taupo block. He now found out that, after the first failure, in connection with which the charges against Sir George Grey were made, a second company was formed, and his (the speaker's) naino was put down as a co-director with Colonel Whitmore, without his consent being even asked for. Neither he nor Colonel Whitmore knew anything of tho first company. The speculation appeared to be so risky that he refused to hold any share in it, and told the other gentlemen to sell the share put down to him. He did not know how the matter ended, except that he was drawn upon for £50 for some expenses. As for Sir George's denial of his connection with the Company, he (thespeaker) would rather accept the statement of Mr Cox thau that of the Hon. Member lor the Thames. Mr. Whitaker was proceeding

to repeat Mr. Ormond's accusation as to Mr. Rees having run away to avoid bis creditors, when Mr. Rees absolutely and indignantly denied that there was any truth in the statement. Mr. Whitaker again affirmed it, when be was called to order by the Speaker. Heaving with passion, he triod to s.eak again, but was pulled down by Major Atkinson. In a minute or two h« resumed, and in a goodhumoured manner " chaffed " Mr. Stout for his logic, and in the end apologised in a most gentlemanly manner for anything he might have said which exceeded proper limits.— Mr. Wakefield, in a telling speech, supported the morion for a committee ot inquiry, contending that the lame blame-the-other-sit'e defence of Mr. Ormond was tho strongest argument yet before the House for the appointment of a committee. He declared that the words of Mr Justice Richmond which Mr Ormond relied upou to clear him, were read without the context, which, in many cases, totally reversed the meaning/ He bad tried to make out that lie had been ruined by his share in the Herettfunga Block, when- the truth was that the tfunrfal rental, as shown by the assessment, was fnr higher than the sum paid for the land. After metaphorically flaying Mr. Ormond alive for half-an-hour, Mr.- Wakefield famed his attention to Mr. Wnitaker,- declaring that that gentleman "had — well,— had materially deviated from the truth" six times in that debate; and concluded by saying thftt both the country and the House would be better if Mr, Whitaker and Mr. Ormond would retire into private life. — Mr. Tairoa exposed the working of the Native Lands Court Act, declaring that to that was due the discontent of the natives of Hawke's Bay. — Upon a division being taken, Mr. Whitflker^s amendment was rejected by one vote, the aye 9 being 20, and the noes 26. — Mr. Travere corroborated the statements of Mr. Taiaroa, declaring that the evil was due to one alteration in the act as drafted, made by Mr. Ormond when the bill was referred to a special committee. He quoted indiridnal instances to prove this, and delivered a strong indictment against the Hawke's Bay land ring. But the House could not be acquitted of culpable carelessness in letting the mutilated clause pass. He incidentally mentioned that he had made it his business to inquire into the Wanganui land speculation, and he could positively acquit both Sir George Grey and Mr. Wbitaker of the slightest wrong-doing in the transaction. He would support the motion, not because he believed that any useful direct results would be obtained, but because the evidence taken might possibly throw great light upon the legislation required to meet the peculiar circumstances of the natives. He concluded by watttly deprecating the personalities which had been imported into the debate. — Mr. Macfarfane moved the adjournment of the House at 1.30 aan </ and this was agreed to.