PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Dominion, Volume 24, Issue 149, 20 March 1931, Page 10

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Debate on Finance Bill Continues ALL SIDES OF HOUSE PARTICIPATE First Labour’ Amendment Appears In spite of the fact that the debate ,on the second reading of the Finance Bill, in which provision is made for a 10 per cent reduction in Public Servants’ salaries and for the variation of Arbitration Court awards, is already becoming drawn out to the noint of dullness, the Prime Minister did not seek to force the pace yesterday by securing urgency. Obviously it is his opinion that such a measure should receive the full range of discussion its importance warrants. The House will no doubt be given the to go into every aspect, and members wil have every opportunity of making themselves heard, but there is no question that once obstructionist tactics appear no further mercy will b given in respect of sitting hours. . Little real progress was made in the debate yesterday and g there was a nota P ble S lack of a high note on the part of speakers, many of whom were content to talk at length upon questions affect 8 aspects of the problem under review. The afternoon did not produce much of interest, the speakers being spread fairly evenly over all parties. There was no suggestion of a determined attempt to delay the B , but it appears that the Government will meet with slightly more oppoX than it at first expected. Mr. GO. Black, Uniteci member■ Tor Motueka, has informed the House in what are considered to be quite definite terms, that he will not vote for the measure, and Mr. C. A. Wilkinson, Independent member for Egmont, has declared that- he wi note vote for the Bill on the principle that it will involve a breach of agreement. Nor will Mr. J. S. Fletcher, another Independent, give the <J ° V£ The ie Leader of the Opposition, Rt. Hon. J. G. Coates, has made it plain that he wants a tribunal to deal with Public Service affairs, and an amendment along these lines can be expected. While progress is comparatively straightforward now, amendments are bound to come thick and fast during the Committee stages. * An opportunity of dividing the House on the question of wheat duties was sought by Mr. H. M Rushworth, Country Party, last evening, when he sought to have the coming into effect of the Bill postponed for at-least one month after the present wheat duties had either been removed or reduced by 2a Per This amendment, however, was ruled out of order, and Mr. W. J. Jordan Labour member for Manukau, followed with another seeking the House’s refusal to grant the second reading on the ground that a graduated tax on those best able to pay had not been adopted as a means of meeting the country’s financial position. This was debated until midnight, when the House adjourned until 2.30 this afternoon.

COST OF BREAD Production and Delivery “It is not possible to state specially the actual cost of production of bread for the reason that costs vary considerably as between different districts and even between different bakers in the same district,” said the Minister of Industries and Commerce, Hon. P. A. de lit Perrelle, replying to Mr. J. A. Nash (Ref., Palmerston), who inquired when the House met whether the Industries and Commerce Department would make a statement regarding the cost of the production of bread. • . . The Minister added that the production of special shape short-weight loaves and “fancy” bread had a matesial influence on the costs per unit of production. Distribution costs also varied throughout the country. Bakehouse production costs in the main centres, per nominal 41b. loaf, varied from approximately ltd. to BJd., and the distribution costs, per normal 41b. loaf, varied approximately from lid. to 2d. The average was' based on mixed delivery to shops and households. General expenses had tn be added to the figures given. These varied from approximately id. to lid. per loaf. A comprehensive report was being prepared, following upon an investigation conducted by the department, and this would be presented to the House in due course. HAWKE’S BAY LOSSES Data as to Quake Damage Arrangements have been made with the chairman of the executive of the Fire Underwriters’ Association to collect information regarding losses that occurred during the recent earthquake in Hawke’s Bay. according to a statement by the Prime Minister. Right Hon. G. W. Forbes, when. replying to Mr. W. E. Barnard (Lab., Napier). Mr. Barnard had asked the Prime Minister whether he would confer with the Fire Underwriters’ Association with a view to obtaining the assistance of the private insurance companies in the work of investigating and determining losses in the earthquake area. It was considered that the companies could render valuable help, and that the task of rehabilitation would be greatly facilitated through the companies’ co-operation. Further, _ a conference might lead to a reconciliation of any differences between the Government and the companies regarding the collection of the proposed surtax of 1/6 per cent. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS In spite of the fact that members continue daily to pour in notices of questions upon a wide variety of topics, there appears to be little likelihood that the Prime Minister will give an opportunity for their discussion. Reference- to members* anxiety to receive answers to questions was made by Mr. 11. M. Rushworth (C., Bay of Islands), who asked the Prime Minister whether a chance would be given to debate replies, or whether at least the satisfaction of having answers printed and circulated would be given by the Government. Mr. Forbes, who has already intimated that the Government’s special legislation only would occupy the House this session, said that if no time could be found- to discuss answers they would be circulated for the information of members. FINANCE BILL DEBATE Public Servants’ Position JUSTIFYING THE CUTS Much that had been heard before was repeated by members on the resumption of the second reading debate of the Finance Bill as soon as formal business had been dealt with. Mr. W. J. Polson (Ind., Stratford) said he was glad to see the Government tackling the job of putting the country's finances in order, although he would have preferred to see it done a year sooner. He congratulated the leader of the Reform Party for having early realised that the present situation was too serious for party considerations. The Opposition leader was right in the attitude he had adopted. The country, he was sure, would not tolerate the present position being made a party question. They had tlie Labour Party hoping to benefit politically from the tribulation of the community. What was the policy of the Labour Party? It was the policy enunciated by Mr. Lang in New South Wales. No member of the Labour Party could deny that he believed in the efficacy of Mr. Lang’s policy. Labour was already setting class against class in this country.' Labour was arousing class hatred and bringing about a state of affairs prejudical to prosperity. The Labour Party was travelling the road to Soviet-ism-—one per cent, wanted to-govern the rest of the population as in Russia today. Loco! Consumption. Referring to the statement of the lender of the Labour Party that the Dominion used a great portion of its primary produce, Mr. Polson said that New

Zealand only consumed 15 per cent, of the butter and cheese it produced, 40 per cent, of the meat produced, and three per cent, of the wool production. The position of the Public Servants compared favourably with that of those in most other countries. .For instance, they were far better off than Public Servants in Australia. They were in a sheltered position that they could enjoy as long as they behaved themselves. They had not to face the fear of unemployment and they had their pensions when they retired. Under those circumstances they were not being asked to make an undue sacrifice in comparison with other sections of the community in having to face a 10 per cent, “cut.” He did not think the Government’s proposals went far enough; there should have been a complete readjustment of taxation. Living Above Means. Mr. C. H. Clinkard (U.. Rotorua) complained that New Zealand had been living above its production. The people most affected at present were the primary producers, the unemployed and the business men. The returns of the lastnamed had fallen out of all proportion, and it was only right that the wage-earn-er should be asked to take less for his production which brought less. The country seemed to be worrying more about the privileges of the men who had peen in work all the time than about the unfortunate people who were out oi work altogether. The unemployed had increased from 2000 to nearly 30,000 within about two years, and the speaker said he would always focus his attention first upon the workless man. Too much money had gone out of the country in luxuries and he seriously made the suggestion to the Prime Minister that the importation of motor-cars should be prohibited for two years. Mr. W.-D. Lysnar (Ind., Gisborne) said the only people making money today were those on wages. POSITION OF RAILWAYS “Less Costly in Near Future” The Minister of Railways, Hon. W. A. Veitch, expressed regret that he had been unable to obtain the information asked for the previous evening by the Hon. W. D. Stewart, who had suggested that some data might reasonably be supplied to the House as to the proportion of married and single men on the £4 mark so that members would know how they would be affected by the proposed 10 per cent, cut. He had made inquiries that morning, but it would take a considerable time to secure the information. “The position in the railways is somewhat different from that in other de- > partments,” said the Minister, who pro-' ceeded to deal with the economies that had been affected in the department. The railway accounts, he said, had shown considerable losses during the last few years, and every effort had been made to reduce costs. A great many of the economies were made before the 10 per cent, cut was decided upon or even considered. His first task, and a most unpleasant task at that, when he took over the Railway Department was to dispense with the services of a considerable number of men within the department. The Leader of the Opposition: That is hardly correct; you took on a lot of men. The Minister: No. A Reform Member: Quite a number were put on in 1929. The Minister: Casuals were taken on for special work and when that work was completed their services were dispensed with. Effect of Depression. The general trade depression had the effect of seriously reducing the amount of business, and consequently the revenue that came to the department. Apart from the men engaged on special work or as' casuals on capital works it was necessary to reduc-e the number of men in the department. The position in the locomotive running branch was entirely different from that in other branches of the service. Casual men were not employed in the highly specialised work in the locomotive branch, but in the other branches where casuals had been employed men had to be dispensed with, and the work previously done by casuals distributed among the permanents. Economies were adopted in the locomotive branch and certain service conditions and privileges were withdrawn. One of these related to the payment of overtime. The effect of the economy was that men accustomed to draw overtime would now draw only their ordinary week’s wages. Difficulties in railway matters were not peculiar to New Zealand, and other countries were experiencing trouble. “Losses on New Lines.” A good deal had been heard of losses on new lines. No doubt there would be substantial losses on many of_ those lines for some years to come, and in the case of some of them probably for all time. The more he looked into the accounts and the more he studied railway affairs, the more lie realised the absolute certainty that the railways would be much less costly in the near future, and that their future was assured. The railways carried lime and fertilisers free or at a greatly reduced cost and thereby assisted primary production. Out of 450,000 tons of fertilisers transported to the point of consumption the railway

carried 420,000 tons, 20,000 tons were carried by sea, and motor transport carried 10,000 tons. , . „ T , „ The Minister said that if the Labour Party was in power to-day it would be doing exactly what the Government was doing; the Reform Party would be doing the same. Neither party would do it because it wished to. The Government was not doing it because it wanted to, but because the conditions of the country demanded that some unpleasant things be done. „ Against Repudiation.

Mr. R. Semple (Lab., Wellington East) said the member for Stratford had charged the Labour Party with ing to a policy of repudiation. He defied anyone to point to one sentence utteied by a member of the Labour Party to bear that out. The party had taken a stand against repudiation this session, it contended that the Governments proposals would repudiate every industrial agreement fixed by the Arbitration Court. It was because the party stood foui square against repudiation that it op posed the Government at present One wondered how many members would ac cuse Sir Francis Bell of standing for re nudiation; yet he was against wage reductions. The world’s thinkers were of the opinion that the world was not suffering from over-production but from under-consumption. The Government s wage-reducing scheme would be pioduc five of more harm than good. AMENDMENT RULED OUT Import Duties on Flour & Wheat “It has been tragic to see invaluable years frittered away . w \ t r hou l t T p \ t ? lD G house in order, said Mr. H. M. Rusn worth (C., Bay of Islands), who recalled warnings of the present crisis issued by him in °the House in 1929. and again last fear. He said he did not consider the Bill went anywhere near a solution of the great problem facing the country. The arguments of the Labour Party had not rung true, and those from the other sides also seemed forced. There had been much talk of equality of sacrifice, but . if the Government provided an adequate national objective, there would be plenty of sacrifice forthcoming. Referring to the opinions of the various parties, Mr. Rushworth said it appeared that whereas the Labour Party and the United Party were in the same bag, the Labour Party and Sir Francis Bell were now seeing eye to eye, while the Leader of the Opposition and the member tor Mataura (Mr. D. McDougall) were also in the same bag at present. The member for Wellington Central (Mr. P. Fraser) had referred recently to the member for Mataura and an “excuse me waltz, but it almost appeare das though the. Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Labour Party had changed partners, while the dance went on. With the present party Outlook it looked as thougi} the Government would soon justly, be termed the “uniform” or “re-urnted party, whichever opinion predominated at the fusion point. Incorrect Procedure. Mr. Rushworth then moved the following amendment as an addition to the motion “that the JJill be read a second time”“But notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Bill, the provisions of this Bill shall not be put into effect until one calendar month after the import duties on flour and wheat have been removed or reduced by at least 25 per cent.” Mr. Speaker stated that the amendment in that form was out of order. It was not his duty to inform a mover of au amendment in what respect it was out of order, but if the House agreed he would explain the position regarding the present amendment to the mover. Upon Mr. Speaker seeking permission of the House to explain the position, Mr. P. Fraser (Lab., Wellington Central) objected, and as unanimous agreement was required, the amendment was disallowed. Mr. Speaker pointed out, however, that no words could be added to the motion although there were other ways of moving an amendment. NO TIME FOR PARTY Parliament and Business The Minister of Education, Hon. H. Atmore, who dealt with international economics and their effect upon New Zealand, pointed out that the world s population was increasing by one per cent, a year, and production by about three per cent. There were two constant factors, the assured world market of about 1900 million people and the annual production. Even so depressions were experienced at various periods and with varying intensity. Sir Josiah Stamp said recently that money, after bringing civilisation to its present level, may well destroy society. There must be some reason for the occurrence of depressions while the two factors mentioned remained constant. They were caused either by the small group of world financiers or the ignorance of men, but it was surely not beyond the wit of man to find the solution. Money should be the servant of man and in no way his master. The Dominion’s present problems could not be met by party recriminations, said the Minister. There might be room tor discussion as to the most equitable way the Government should take to meet the country’s difficulties. If they were to curtail' expenditure they had to go where the bulk of the expenditure was. The bulk of the income was not received by the millionaires but by the wage-earners. No political party would set about making <1 “cut” in election year if there was another way out." Business Men and Politics. Business men were not desired in Parliament if it were to function as it was intended to and to act in the interests of the people. There had been one example only of a man outstanding in polities and in business —that was the late Sir Joseph Ward. Mr. H. G. R. Mason (Lab., Auckland Suburbs) : What about Sir Arthur Myers? The Minister added that if Parliament were to be run by business men for profit from the people whom it represented, in the present state of affairs with receipts falling off there would be wholesale sackings and thousands added to the dole and charitable aid sheets. Parliament represented the people of New Zealand, the weak and the strong, the big and the small, and could not adopt ' the course of business men. It was significant that though many business men sought election, few were returned. There was a clear line of demarcation between the profit-making methods of the ordinary business man and the methods that should be adopted by Parliament. It was a truism that they must temper the business methods of Parliament. Mr. D. Jones (Ref., Mid-Canterbury) : The Postmaster-General was a business man. Mr. Speaker: Order. “There seems to be a certain doubt on the part of electors that if a man can make profits outside Parliament he might not be truly altruistic inside,” concluded the Minister. FIRST LABOUR MOVE Amendment Appears GRADUATED TAXATION The first Labour amendment to the motion “that the Bill be read a second time” came from Mr. W. J. Jordan (Manukau), who moved that the House should decline to give a second reading to the Bill which “failed to meet the Dominion’s financial obligations by means of a graduated system of payment by citizens in accordance with their ability to pay.’ He said the proposed reduction in wages, which would serve as a tax upon some people, was unfair. If the country was in the serious position the Prime Minister averred, it was right that the country should know all the facts and the responsibility to meet the position should be placed upon the shoulders of those best able to bear it. That was a

hackneyed phrase, but it was nevertheless The amendment was seconded by Mr. H G. Mason (Lab., Auckland Suburbs).' He believed the prosperity and welfare of New Zealand was in their keeping, and that they were not bound to submit to waves of depression sent from other sides of the earth. He did not believe that the management of currency was a complete solution for the Dominion's troubles. One of the causes was the steady fall in the world’s precis. He believed, however, a solution could be reached by the Dominion regulating its currency apart from what was being done in London. Balancing the Budget. Mr A. W. Hall (Ref., Hauraki) said they all realised the seriousness of the present position and the necessity for balancing the Budget if the Dominion were to keep its credit good at Home. All however, did not agree with the Prime Minister's method. The present Government had pursued a policy of drift and had not realised the seriousness of the position until it was right upon it. The Government was largely responsible for the position because of its reckless borrowing and extravagant expenditure. Economies were absolutely necessary in the administration of various Government departments. He did not think the 10 per cent, flat rate reduction was equitable. Nobody getting under £2OO should have his salary cut. The question of salaries should be removed from Parliament altogether. It should be left to some independent tribunal to fix not only rates of pay but conditions and hours of work. Efficacy of Scheme. Mr. C. H. Chapman (Lab., WellingNort) eaid that since 1921 the contribution to the revenue of the country from the income tax payers had grown less and less. The income tax payers were due for an increase. The Government had treated the workers as badly as had any past Administration. It had already increased taxation upon -the workers at a time when they were less able to bear it, and interest rates had been rising all the time. Lower wages never had solved economic difficulties, and that was why the Labour Party did not stand for a reduction. The debate was adjourned until 2.30 this afternoon. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Chairman of Committees HON. E. CLARK ELECTED The Hon. E. 11. Clark was yesterday appointed chairman of committees of the Legislative Council. There were two other candidates for the position rendered vacant by the death of the Hon.'. J. Barr —the Hon. A. S. Malcolm and the Hon. G. J. Smith. A secret ballot resulted in the election of Mr. Clark. Replying to congratulatory speeches by the Speaker, Sir Walter Carncross, the Leader of the Council, Sir Thomas Sidey, and the two defeated candidates, Mr. Clark said he felt honoured at being appointed to such a high position and would do his best to justify the confidence which had been placed in him. Mr. Clark represented Chalmers in the House of Representatives from 1908 until 1914. He was appointed to the Upper House in June, 1920, and was reappointed in 1927. His present term expires in 1934. ADDRESS-IN-REPLY Two More Speakers The Hon. M. Fagan, who resumed the Address-in-Reply debate, congratulated Sir Francis Bell on his fine and convincing speech the previous day. If the Civil Servants were being tried by a judge of the Supreme Court they would have a reasonable chance of acquittal after the masterly arguments advanced by Sir Francis. He had hammered his points home on behalf of the lower-paid men, and impressed all by his array of facts. The Government of the day had had a trying time during the last two years; it had been a rough passage, continued Mr. Fagan. He was not unmindful of the necessity for balancing the Budget, but he disagreed entirely with the methods which were to be adopted. The 10 per cent, “cut” was unjust in its application. To tax a boy earning £l4O a year was to limit his ability to live; to attack the salary of the man receiving £7OO was merely to limit his ability to save. Mr. Fagan said he would like to be as sure as some of the previous speakers that the proposed reduction in wages would mean a corresponding decrease in the cost of living. He recalled that in the nine years following the 1922 “cut” house rents increased 50 per cent. Every person should be asked to contribute according to his ability; in that way only would there be equality of sacrifice. If a cut in the wages and salaries of Civil Servants was inevitable, then a graduated scale of taxation should be adopted. The Hon. R. McCallum said he was not going to criticise the Government, nor was he going to assume the role of the candid friend. He intended to adopt a helpful attitude. When he studied the lists of Civil Servants’ salaries he was amazed to find so many drawing salaries to which they were not entitled—that was, if one took into consideration the services they rendered the country. The Civil Servant was not under contract. It was a mistake to. continue employing men when their services were not required. It was not done in private business; he did not see any reason why it should be so in the Public Service. The 10 per cent, “cut” .should stand. He was not in favour of taxing the necessities of life. Referring to the railways, Mr. McCallum declared that road competition should be stopped. The Govenment, in his opinion, would be unwise to band over control of the railways to a board. Parliament must control the expenditure. The debate was adjourned until this afternoon on the motion of the Hon. W. Earnshaw.