GRADUATED TAX

Dominion, Volume 23, Issue 284, 27 August 1930, Page 12

GRADUATED TAX

Unemployment Levy CABINET TO CONSIDER Other Changes in Bill Much criticism of the flat rate levy of 30/- a year which it is proposed to make under the Unemployment Bill upon all males over 20, led up to an announcement in the House of Representatives last evening by the Minister of Labour, Hon. S. G. Smith, that the Government would be willing to investigate the possibility of substituting a graduated tax. The House had been discussing the short title of the Bill in committee for several hours and opposition to the flat rate levy came mainly from the Labour benches.' In replying to points raised, the Minister appealed to the House to defer consideration of the question until Cabinet had been given a chance of seeing whether a graduated impost would be feasible. • , , ~ “It is only right that Cabinet should consider the appeal for a graduated tax to see whether such a system is workable, whether it will bring in the revenue required, and whether it will minimise any hardship that might be caused .by a. flat tax,” said the Minister. “However, it must be remembered that whatever is done, whether by flat tax or graduated tax. there will still be some people in receipt of low rates of wages who will say it will be difficult for them to pay the levy. Productive Work. “But while there may be mapy getting only £3 or £4 a week, there are 5900 registered unemployed with no work and no pay, and there are 5300 on relief works. The object of this Bill is to find further work, not relief work, but work which will be of a productive nature and which will help to bring back prosperity to this country. Members will realise that the Minister of Labour and 'the Unemployment Board will be facing a stupendous task, but I do not shirk it. I assure members that if we get this board I believe that by next session we will be able to show that a great deal of good has been accomplished in placing men in work on entirely different lines from those which the Government has been pursuing.” The Minister spoke several times in reply to points made by members, rind he intimated the nature of amendments lie proposed to move into the Bill. -Before he had announced these in precise terms Mr. Smith recalled that the Prime Minister had stated that reasonable amendments would be accepted. inc Bill Was a non-party one and it was tor the House to say whether certain amendments should be moved into the Bill. The Leafier of the Opposition, Rt. Hon. J. G. Coates: Give us a lead. . The Minister: We will stick to the Bill if we consider the amendments proposed are against the best interests ot the country. We will give that lead. Let us pee the amendments first. Subsidy in Advance. The nature of the amendments he himself would move was later explained by the Minister. Firstly, it was proposed to provide for payment into the Unemployment Fund from the Consolidated Fund' of a sum of £lOO,OOO. That would really be a loan—a Government subsidy in advance —to enable the board to operate before the levies were collected. Another amendment dealt with the classes of persons exempt from payment of the levy. One class comprised those in receipt of an old age pension, but it was now proposed to exempt those in receipt of any pension. A further amendment referred to tne question of persons whom it was proposed to appoint associate members of the board. The effect of the amendment would be that experts co-opted to assist the board would be entitled to the payment of reasonable expenses, but would not have the right'of a vote. It was also proposed to enlarge a provision whereby the board could make grants or loans to any persons or authorities to enable them to undertake developmental works calculated to relieve unemployment. It was sought by an amendment to make such grants or loans to persons or authorities “to enable them to undertake or to continue to carry on developmental or other works calculated to relieve unemployment.” Mr. Smith appealed to members not to prolong the short title debate, but to discuss the merits or demerits of the Bill as each clause was reached. Assisting. Ex-Soldiers. Regarding the proposal to have a representative of the Returned Soldiers’ Association on the board, Mr. Smith said it was impossible for the Government in the present difficult times to give effect to all the recommendations of the ExSoldiers’ Rehabilitation Commission. To do so would involve aq expenditure of over £1,000,000. Some' of the recommendations, it was hoped, would be adopted this session, but that would be explained later by the Minister of Defence. However, it was felt that some assistance could be given returned soldiers under this Bill by enabling them to take advantage of the vocational training proposals. “It will enable us to do something for the returned soldiers this year, and surely there can be no objection to the returned soldiers having a representative on the board for that purpose,” said the Minister. The board Would decide whether the levy would be by way of stamps or registration booklets. The difficulty he was in, said Mr. Smith, was that he could not tell the House what the board was going to do, as there was no board yet. The most he could do would be to suggest to the board later certain lines of action in the light of the opinions expressed in the House. One line of action would be that the board should co-opt experts in secondary industries to assist in the making of a thorough investigation with a view to stimulating employment. That would be done also in . the case of primary industry, and, in fact, in all trades. Penalty for Neglect. The penalty proposed for non-registra-tion was severe in order to bring home the fact that unemployment was a serious matter, and any attempt to evade the responsibilities made under the Bill would have to be dealt with seriously. The Minister said he could not accept

the proposal of Mr. J. S. Fletcher to call the Bill the Employment Bill. It was no use placing a blanket over the matter so that the public would not see it. Mr. J. McCombs (Lab.. Lyttelton) expressed his thanks to the Minister for agreeing to consider the question of a graduated tax. He said that after all he would probably be able to include women under the Bill under exactly the same conditions as men. If the contribution were made on the basis of income it would not mean that a married woman would pay as well as her husband. They would both be assessed on the husband’s income of, say. £250, and the contribution would be made on that basis. Mr. McCombs also asked whether the Minister would be prepared to consider the case of waterside workers who were engaged for only a few hours during a certain period, which would ordinarily disqualify them from benefiting from the Bill. The Minister: I will look into it. Inclusion of Women. The Minister later defined his attitude toward the request that women should be included in the scope of the Bill. He pointed out that the Bill was a pioneer movement and an experiment, and the evidence of what had been done in other countries, while helpful, was not a great guide. There were 2809 females between 20 and 04 who were employers of labour, there were 7006 between the same ages who were working on. their own account, and there were 70.766 earning wages or salary. That made a total of over 80,000. Mr. Smith said a lot of propaganda had been going on with a view to securing the inclusion of women in the Bill. In view of the fact that the Bill was an experiment and that it would be extremely difficult to provide funds and work he believed it would be hampering the Bill this year to include women in the levy and sustenance provisions. Under the operation of the Bill the board would be called on to find work for al persons, male and female, and that would mark a considerable advance in securing better organisation than had been availab There t was P a St total of 286,238 women, who came under the classes, of retired, pensioners or domestic duties. lliey were not earning wages or salary, and it would not be reasonable to ask them to pay a levy for the assistance of the coir paratively few females out of work; Of course, a large number of those included in the 286,238 was housewives and the Minister thought no one would favour a levy being made on the “-.™ must also be a considerable number ot women at home who were not required t 0 Mr/pUFraser (Lab., Wellington Central) : Then include women who eain wages and salaries and are ordinarily emP1 The Minister said if only women wageearners were included, it would be said that there were many thousands of girls leaving schools who'could not get jobs and they could not be included in the scheme because they, were not wage-earn-Suggestions Noted.

The Minister gave an assurance that he had listened very carefully to all the speeches made in reference to the Bin, both on the second reading when 4o members spoke and on the committee discussion. Holding up a sheaf of notes, the Minister said the board would nof lack guidance or suggestions. He had been asked to consider the case of watersid; ers who were engaged for only a tew hours during a certain period which would ordinarily disqualify them from benefiting under the Bill. He believed if they could only encourage a few hundred men away from the waterfront that would be to the advantage of the waterfront and of New Zealand. Mr. P. Fraser (Lab., Wellington Central) : But the Bill is loaded against them. , The Minister did not agree. The board would have great discretion and in his opinion would have power to assist workers or a body of workers if an injustice were being done to them. No Need to Starve. “Now there is no need for anyone to starve in Wellington,” said Mr. Lowe. “All they have to do is to make application to the committee, and if their case is a genuine one, it will receive every sympathy. I might say that some of these men have persistently defied us, and are fixedly determined that they will not do any work. Others have said that they will do some work, but -ot- under the conditions laid down by the board.” The amount of work a man receiving relief charitable aid is called upon to do varies from three hours, which is the minimum, to fifteen hours, which is the maximum, a week. Some men receive as nnjch as £2/10/- per week, everything depending, of course, on the amount of work performed. The men are given every opportunity to go out and look for work. If the men were starving as they alleged they were, Mr. Lowe said, they had themselves to blame. There was a right way and a wrong way to go about the business. Quite a number of those who comprised yesterday’s deputation had been on the books of the committee, but their requests were so unreasonable that it had been found quite impossible to ,meet them. An outpatient of the hospital complained strongly last evening of the attitude of the unemployed in haranguing the crowd in a hostile way outside the building. It had a disturbing effect on the visitors of the institution, particularly women and children. Handling of Borrowed Money. “It is quite obvious,” said the Leader of the Opposition, Rt. Hon. J. G. Coates, “that borrowed money ought not to be available as it has been in the past for public works undertakings. I am afraid, that money has been borrowed without consideration being given to the justification of its expenditure or not.”. “You were guilty of that,” interjected a Labour member. “No,” replied Mr. Coates. “A great deal more caution was shown by the previous Government than has been shown since. This country is faced with probably the most serious problem in its whole history. I think the Minister is making a great mistake if he endeavours to postpone clause 5 (the clause relating to the imposition of a flat rate levy on the male population) and deal with the remainder of the clauses in the Bill. Clause 5 is the Bill.” Taxation, whatever the effect of it, must have an effect on unemployment, added Mr. Coates. The more difficult it was made for people to invest the more difficult it became for the unemployed. Addresses had been delivered around the country by the Leader of the Labour Party, and in the notices of the meetings in the newspapers it was stated: “Come to hear Mr. Holland, the only man that can cure unemployment.” Mr. W. E. Parry (Lab., Auckland Central) : Show us where you. saw that. The chairman of committees, Mr, W. A. Bodkin: What clause in the Bill is the honourable gentleman dealing with? “Delusion and Snare.” Mr. Coates said he believed the Leader of the Labour Party said what he had in all sincerity and believed that he could cure unemployment. In a speech at Home Mr. J. H. Thomas was reported as having said that the belief that the mere spending of money would cure unemployment was a delusion and a snare “I must object to the Minister getting past clause 5,” continued Mr. Coates. “This clause is the most important part of the Bill. To defer clause 5 seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse. There is not a man on the Labour benches who agrees with sustenances. In their own hearts they know— ” Mr. E. J. Howard (Lab.. Christchurch South) : We want work. “Yes,” replied Mr. Contes, “it is the work that the unemployed want. I realise that it will take some time to organise labour. The classes of labour will have to be grouped. Clause five is the key of the whole situation. We have got to get money and to decide where it is to come from. If the Government wishes to reconsider clause five, well by all means do so, but I suggest that it would be very wise to take it before dealing with the rest of the Bill.” Support for Sustenance. The Leader of the Labour Party, Mr. H. E. Holland, said that every member on the Labour benches was in favour of sustenance. Mr. Coates: In his heart? Mr. Holland: Better still, in his mind, where his intellect is. ' . The Labour attitude, he continued.

was that if work could not be found, sustenance should be provided. One of the atrocities of Society was the spectacle of the man who was willing to work but was denied the right to do so, while he and his wife and children were left to starve.

Referring to the statement of the Leader of the Opposition that he had been advertised as the man who could cure unemployment, Mr. Holland said that matters were getting exaggerated. The member for Dunedin West had pointed out one paper in which the statement had appeared, and he (Mr. Holland) had replied stating that the words had been inserted in the advertisement without his authority. The Leader of the Opposition now declared it appeared in many papers, Probably he was thinking of 1925 and the “man that gets things done.” “What clause does that refer to?” inquired the Chairman of Committees. Mr. Holland: The honourable gentleman made a definite statement, and I want to put him right. What we want in place of the flat rate is a graduated tax, and as far as this section of the House is concerned, we are prepared to put our suggestions in writing. After Mr. 11. G. Dickie (Ref., Patea) had spoken for a few moments, the short title was passed. The second, third and fourth clauses were passed without comment, when Mr. Contes moved to report progress. “I think it will be wise,” he said. “The whole structure of the Bill depends on the money available. I suggest at this stage that we report progress with leave to sit again.” The Leader of the Opposition’s suggestion was unanimously agreed to by the House,

COURT RULES Amending Procedure FUNCTION TRANSFERRED !r » Committee Set Up The Judicature Amendment Bill, which originated in the Legislative Council, was introduced into the House of Representatives last evening by the Minister of Justice, Hon. J. G. Cobbe, and after being read a second time, it was referred to the Statutes Revision Committee. Explaining the Bill, the Minister said it aimed to make better provision for prescribing the rules of the Supreme Court by transferring the function of rule-mak-ing from the judges to a Rules Committee. The Leader of the Opposition, Rt. Hon. J. G. Coates, asked what reason there wa for an alteration. The existing arrangement appeared to be all right, and to avoid irritation. He did not think the Minister desired to upset the Supreme Court bench, but he asked for specific cases in which difficulties had arisen necessitating an alteration in the law. Mr. W. E. Barnard (Lab., Napier), who is a barrister, said he considered the Bill a necessary measure. In the past the rules of the Supreme Court had been made by a number of judges ranging from two or three The Bill proposed to substitute a rules committee, a larger body consisting of five judges, including the Chief Justice, and the Attorney-General, and three others, who would be barristers or solicitors. He considered the move a wise one, but he thought the latter three should be both barristers and solicitors. Mr. D. Jones (Ref., Mid-Canterbury) suggested that the Bill should be held over until another session. Apparently no one in the House knew just how farreaching the Bill was. A lot of work seemed to have originated in the Upper House this session. Sir Apirana Ngata: You want to retaliate for the loss of the Defence Bill. Mr. Jones: Perhaps that might not be such a bad thing.. However, it is not fair for the Government to put this Bill before us until full reasons are given for it. I suggest the Acting-Prime Minister should withdraw it until next session. Mr. H. G. Dickie (Ref., Patea) thought the Government should say what was wrong with the present rules of procedure and why it was necessary to enlarge the rilles committee. Mr. W. P. Endean (Ref., Parnell), also a barrister, thought no harm could be done by the Bill. They were only procedure rules and should receive the favourable consideration of the House. Mr. D. G. Sullivan (Lab., Avon) asked whether the alteration proposed in the Bill would serve the convenience and interests of the legal profession rather than the interests of the public who had to have recourse to the courts. He knew from his reporting experience that such conflict of interests, between lawyers and their .clients did arise. Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Ind. Ref., Gisborne) favoured th* Bill as it would bring the procedure into line with the English practice. He thought that the second reading should be given, and that the Bill should then be referred to the Statutes Revision Committee. “We have heard a lot of cheap law,” remarked the Minister in replying. “It appears to me that those members who know as much law as me are against the Bill, while those members who are barristers are in favour of it. It seems to me that the Bill simply gives to a larger body the work which has been done by a, considerably smaller body. Those who know the law say this is a reasonable amendment. At the same time I am perfectly willing that it should be referred to the Statutes Revision Committee.” FLAX INDUSTRY Need for Assistance A suggestion that the proposed Unemployment Board should investigate the flax industry in order to find one avenue of work, was made by Mr. J. A. Nash (Ref.. Palmerston), in speaking on the Unemployment Bill in the House .of Representatives yesterday. Flax milling ic prominent in Mr. Nash’s district. Mr. Nash said he hoped the board would go into the question of assisting the industry. It would be a valuable medium of employment, and at the same time an industry suffering from the economic situation would be given much needed aid. . . The Minister of Railways: It is all in the Bill. “It does not mention flax,” Mr. Nash said. “There are something like 200 men affected at the present time in the flax industry. . Something has to be done. It is now impossible for millers to obtain a price which will enable them to employ men at- the Arbitration award rate. For that reason this industry might well be helped.” MIGRANTS TO DOMINION Figures for Past 18 Months Since the United Government took office just over 18 months ago it has assisted 217 immigrants to the Dominion. This number is made up of 47 men, 103 women, and 67 children under 17 years of age. A return presented to the House of Representatives yesterday afternoon by the Acting Prime Minister, Hon. E. A. Ransom, which has been prepared at the request of Mr. W. Nash (Lab., Hutt), shows their occupations to be as follow: — 1 Boot operative, 1; Church of England boys (farming), 35; clerk, 1; domestics, 72; dressmaker, 1; engineer, 1; farming, 9; Flock House girls (farming and service), 9; glassworkers, 2; grocer, 1; labourer, 1; mechanic, 1; miners, 2; machinist (female), 1; nurses, 2; printer, 1; shop assistants, 5; teachers, 2; tailors, 3; wives, 15; miscellaneous, 6; children, 46 ; total, 217. The difference between the number of ■children classed as under 17 and the 46 mentioned above is accounted for by the fact that 13 Church of England boys and 8 Flock House girls under 17 have been ineluded under their respective occupational headings.