A HOT DEBATE

Dominion, Volume 10, Issue 3190, 14 September 1917, Page 6

A HOT DEBATE

>:r,:':.' ■———»- — * POSTAL INQUIRY THE COMMISSIONER'S REPORT OFFICIAIS EXONERATED w " REPORT DISCUSSED SECTARIAN BITTERNESS DEPRECIATED :,;•"; The report of •_ tho Royal Commission ' iet lip-to inquire into charges' made by . the. Rev.:' Howard Elliott against officers "at"the' Auckland Post Office was laid on the tablo'of the* House of Representatives by the Postmaster-General (Sir Joseph Ward) yesterday afternoon. After explaining the scope of the inquiry, the ; Commissioner (Mr. H. W. Bishop, S.M.) : states.— - ' - •■• . It irill be convenient for tho purpose of my report to take tho issues submitted to me in .the., order in which they are «et out in tho extended reference:— (a) Wlether correspondence address- ,'•'. Ed to Post Office Box No. 912, at Auckland, has been corruptly or improperly suppressed or detained by the officers of the Post Office. ' . '. '■ This is an extension of the charge made ' : ' : hy the Rey. Howard Elliott as set out in the original Commission, namely, that ■ oertain'circular notiies posted at Auckland, on or about July 6, 1917, relative to ;t meeting to be held at Auckland by the Protestant Political Association were , corruptly or improperly suppressed tained by the officers of the Post Office. The evidence showe that about 2500 en-, velopes had been posted containing cir- ; cukrs advising people to whom thoy were nddressed of the fact that a public meeting would be held on a given date, and inviting the addressees to apply for tickets of admission. . Of these 2500 envelopes, nine of the persons to whom they were β-ddressed received them empty, and two d«l not receive them at all. If I were to take the evidence on these points as absolutely reliable and conclusive .1 should still consider that the shortages were trifling out of eo very ]"any posted; and certainly there was in 3io degree satisfactory evidence of any impropriety or corruption on the part of the Auckland Postal officials, especially where there is an ufrter absence- of motive except the vory far-fetched one suggested by Hγ. Elliott, namely, a desire to Btifle his meeting. But I ask myself whether there is no margin for error or mistake in tho.preparation and posting o? these oirculars? There were several versons, male and iomalo. concerned in iho handling and dispatch of these lettare Some wero addressing envelopes, >-imo were stamping, some were inserting, the contents; and everyone is assumed to l-ave been .perfect in attention to l>is or her particular part. It is only a email ' ; matter certainly, but eneh person wns supposed to turn in the flap of each envelope, and yet it .has been i conclusively , -proved beyond any reasonable shadow of : .<!oubt, through the stamping maohwft. : that many of the envolopes were roster with the flaps outside and open Whicn is the most reasonable proposition—that . pine envelopes out of 2500 had been post>d without contents, or that these nine p-rrelorws bad had their contents im- ■ Tipoperir or corruptly removed by Post ■' Office officials without any apparent or ■"'• 6 ''AnTsb ™ith T °the two envelopes .which •'••.« alleged not to hap been delivered at all. I am very far from -satisfied. ■ fiat these envelopes were ever posted Arain, there is too much margin for error amongst 2.500 letters, handled by a number of different people. It has been strongly urged that the ' sorters ought to have detected that certain of. the envelopes were empty; and

something ulterior is inferred from their f:\ilure to do so. Ido rot attach the eifchtest importance ■ 'to this. , I had cellar demonstration >of the..fact-that "'the most expert sorters could very easily ' : mid frequently'fail to detect the fact I'iat certain envelopes were empty. It might easily'happen, without casting any .. great reflection on the sorters, that where ~ S'loh-a large number of envelopes, mostly :,. of a kind and evidently containing cir.■'!'■;ciUave, liad-to be handled, the same >..J'icety of handling would not bo eser'■:ci.ied. The Act of the Censor.. ■ A. further statement is made that some ' : '" forty, notices- were posted to. ministers ■j'ttL various denominations with a:view to ,'' li wing the fact that the meeting was 'to be held duly notified from.the respective pulpits on the Sunday, previous to the meeting, and that these notices did ii-:>t reach the addressees until the Mon.- : di-.y, and in some ,three_ cases until the Taesday. .However this nißy be,-I am :. perfectly satisfied'that the delay was in i'Jl'o way due to-the Post' Office officials, • "'"but, rightly or'wrongly,'was entirely due to the.act of the Censor, who did not release the letters until too late for delivery on the Saturday. All these let-■•-i;-re bore 'the superscription, "If un■_s£aimed within sevea days please,return r'.to. Box 912...Auckland," and, therefore; 1 .would - be censored in accordance with 'viii ; it'fuctions,, which.l shall refer to later. :■-%■.■• With ."resard;.to -the: missing letters and Mother incidental < complaint, it is very i-grSatly'-'to-be regretted"'that-.Mr. Elliott, .whenjfe made'his complaint to the Chief Postmaster, did not then and there eup- : ji'y all available particulars of the addressees, etc., when requested to do so. '■;Ho was asked to do so by .the Chief Postmiister, and promised to do so; but later, --BS he states, on legal advice, refrained - from doing 60. The Chief Postmaster ' tv;is therefore unable to make such, iw'f|'idries M 'were right and proper to be Jiifradein .the interests of his_ officers and •■'; lit the: interests "of-the public. .:"i-""-;"-Solicitor-General's Evidence. ■*■ (bj On what-grounds military cen- . I.sorship has been established over tho of the persons using tho said post office box.

I will here quote in full tho evidence feiven by the Solicitor-General, Mr. J. ~\Y. Salmond, K.C.:— • "I have been responsible for tho drafting of war legislation.eince the war, and also the War Regulations. I have had :ir:ider my guidance and care much of ti-.o proceedings • that have been instituted in New Zealand under the War Regulations. I havq been called upon to advise as to the censorship in New ZeaJfifld of correspondence and mail matter; and I have constantly acted as the ]rjal adviser to the censorship. I am familiar with the matters which led up to the censorship of matter from or to Post Office Box 912 at Auckland. At tho eiid of 1916,. and the beginning of 1917, t'.\e attention of the authorities was, upon more than one occasion, called to fie activities of a body calling itself the Vigilance Committee, and also the activities of tho Rev. Howard Elliott, who was in some way connected with that body. : Tho first occasion on which that matter came to my knowl"d?e was at the beginning of December, 391 G. ' A communication was received by tho Hon. the Attorney-General, a private letter enclosing a copy of a circular or pamphlet published by this committee and called 'Rome's Hideous Guilt j a the European Carnage.' I don't pro--s*>se to mention the name of tho informant of the Attorney-General; but in view jf the nature of tho suggestions mode in this caso I desire to say that lie was not a Roman Catholic, and had no connection with the Roman Catholic Church. (Ho was a member of Parlialaent.) When the matter was referred ■lo me by the Attorney-General I received 110 particular instructions; but it was referred to me for my consideration and action. I considered the matter,.and I rarne to tho conclusion that the' pamphlet was a mischievous publication, and tiat the body -responsible for it should uot be allowed to have the -«e of a Post Office box for the distribu ■Von of matter of that class. I necordfTrtflT, on December 13, 101G, sent n me-Bwr-vDrinm to the Chief of tho General Staff (Colonel ■ Gibbon) who has apparently- if>» ehiof control of the censorship, »i<J -rltV whOTi I always comnmaieate

in these matters. The communication which I sent to him was :ls follows - .—

'Solicitor-General's Office, Wellington, December 13, M 6. 'The Chief of the General Staff—l Bend you herewith a circular issued through tho post by a body calling itself "The Committee of Vigilance," and having the uso of a Post OiKco box at Auckland. The circulation of litorature of this kind at the proscut time is likely to bo mischbvons, and I do nob think it should be allowed to be transmitted through tho post. Perhaps steps could be taken by tho Auckland censorship to see that all circulars issued by its committee are examined, and, if necessary, suppressed. They are identifiable by tho request to return them, if unclaimed, to the Post Office box. 'JOHN W. SAIiJIOND, 'Solicitor-General. An Emphatic Denial. "I know that, in consequence of thai mc-morauduin, censorship was directed by Colonel Uibbop. The suggestion 01 cen sorship originated with inyeeli. I had i>o instruction by any Minister of the Crown or anyone else to take t.ms particular action, but 1 acted on my o»n discretion, and for the reasons in tho memorandum to Colouel Gibbon. I-desire-to give an emphatic demal to tho suggestion that tho censorship vas established in the interests of the ltom.m GallicKβ Church. Ihero was no thought in my mind, and I am sure, that "line was no thought in the/ mind of the Chief of the General Staff, as to •afcing Bides in any way in any religious controTersy. It was not in the interests of tta Soman Catholic Church that action VwM'in the interests of the public, and exactly the same action, as fax as I am concerned, would ha.ve reen, taken if the Committee of Vigilance bad themselves, or had Roman Catholics, made a similar attack upon the Protestant religion. The reason why 1 lecommonded that action should be taken was that literature of that class seemed to me an attempt to stir up religious strife and bigotry in the time of war. It could serve no useful purpose, and was bound, I tlioueht, to excite public discord and want of harmony and religious antagonism at a time when harmony and efficiency were absolutely necessary to Hie conduct of .this war. ' I came to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, n.nd I adhere to it, that the circulation of that sort of thins was a public mischief and a public evil, and that the Post Office should not be used as the instrumentality of it. I thnupht it would have n very appreciable effect upon the recruiting of Roman Catholics and in. the want of hearty co-operation and assistance of tho Roman Catholics in the conduct of the war. This pamphlet is not really an attack on the Roman Catholic religion, but ia an atack upon the Roman Catholics in specific relation' to the war. In my opinion, it would interfere with the full assistance desired by the Government being obtained from the Romnn Catholic community in connection with thn war. I have seen no reason since last December to alter or modify my views. I am inclined to regret that I (lid not take stronger action at the time than merely impose censorshin. I am not a Roman Catholic. It is I, and I alone, who am responsible for the ndvice that the correspondence from this body should be censored, and it was pursuant to my ndvice that the censorship was established."

Box 912. The Commissioner goes on to say:— Mr. Salniond states clearly and distinctly that the reason which actuated him in recommending that censorship should be established over Box 912 was. his belief that matter connected with this box was distinctly mischievous in tendency, and was likely to very seriously interfere with the proper , conduct of the:war; and that therefore the Post Office should not be allowed to be made ■ tho medium for its circulation to the public. It has been stated in -evidaneo that 20,000 copies of a pamphlet entitled "Rome's Hideous Guilt in the European Carnage" had been circulated; and this is one of the pamphlets considered mischievous by the Solicitor-General. It seems to me that this statement of the Solicitor-General, coming us it does from an authority of such high standing, sufficiently discloses the grounds upon which the censorship was established. I am not in any way called upon to express my opinion as to the sufficiency or otherwise of tho Teason. Suffice if lo say that tlvp Solicitor-General considered it wise, in the interests of the country, that the censorship should be established, and informed the-Chief Military Censor accord-, ingly, and that his advice was acted upon, Tho charge that the 'military censorship hnd been established in the inter-, ests of the Roman Catholic Church is thus absolutely disposed of and com. pletely disproved. To emphasise this I need only quote Sir. Ostler's own words in his address at the close of the inql"No'w, the Solicitor-General has assured us that he did not act in _the interests of the Soman Catholic Church i and I for one, knowing him well, am quite glad to accept that, and to admit that in so acting ho was not cor. mptly or even consciously influenced by any member of the Roman Catholic Church. I admit that'he is not the kind of man that would consciously lend, hmsplf.to .any corrupt influence of that j S °Biit while thus acquitting the Solwji-tor-Gsneral of any conscious bias, Mr. , Ostler goes on to modify his statement; bv asserting that tlie action of tho Soli-ci'tor-General, bein<: illegal in his opinion, has had the direct eff«* of operotrrig ,n M interests of the Church of Homn TVIx Oiler's remarks on the action _ot the Solicitor-General and his assertion ; of Us illegnlih' do not call for -emar<c j froii wo. "Mr. Ralmond will no doubt | note the fact for his future guidance, that Mr. Ostler considers his practice of the law is considerably weaker than his knowledge, and apparently chides him for attempting to act as a master sr dictator iWa-hI of a public servant. I leave it at this.

"The Menace." I'have already stated that it is perfectly clear thnt military censorship had not been established over Box 912 in the interests of the Roman Catholic Church; and it is perhaps difficult to understand why Mr. Elliott and his friends should be so deeply convinced that such ?s the case. I think the explanation is this: Both tho Orange Lodse and the Protestant Political Association have on occa. sion used the same bra. Somo time ago a paper named "The Menace/' published in America, came under the ban of the Post Office under Section 28 of the Post and Telegraph Act. , 1908. This paper us most rabidly anti-Roman Catholic, and makes most virulent attacks on. that Church, esnecinlly with regard to its political activities. Some of its writings would very naturally give great offence to very many Roman Catholics. Somo of these had apparently drawn the Mt<-n----t.ion of tho Postmaster-General to tho fact that the paper contained objectionable advertisements of a nature to bring it under-the prohibition set out in Section 28 of the Post and Telegraph -Act. Verv strong protests were made by Sir. Seabrook and others agninst this ban, as they considered that the objectionable advertisements were only made an excuse for stopping the .paper. Snbwnumtly tho ban was removed, and "The Menacewa= allowed free circulation. The letter produced below from the then Pias-ter-General (the Hon. B. H. Kfcodee) sets out the position:— "Postmaster-General's Office, , "Wellington, July 30, 1911. "11. H. Senbrook, Esq., Grafton Road, Auckland. "Dear Sir-In reply to your letter of the-20th ult. about the newspaper Hie Monaco,' it was brought under my notice that copies of the paper contained advertisements of an immoral nature relating to sexual treatment addressed to women. _ , , "Section 28 of the Post and Telegraph Act provides:— '"If the Postmaster-General has at any timo reasonable ground to suppose any person in New Zealand or elsewhere to be engaged . . . (d) in any fraudulent, obscene, immoral, or unlawful business or undertaking, or (e) in advertising in direct or indirect terms the treatment of diseases of tho eexual organs—then the Postmaster-General may,

by notico under his hand in tho Gazette, order that no postal packet addressed to any such person (either by his own or by any lictitions or assumed name), or to any address without a name, ehiill b» either registered, forwarded, or delivered by the Post Office.' . . . "The Department took legal advico on, the question whether the advertisements under notico brought tho advertisers within this section, and was advised that tho advertisers could l>o treated as persons engaged in an immoral am! unlawful business, and that tho newspaper could bo destroyed under Section 30 of the Post and Telegraph. Act as being of an immoral nature and likely to have an indecent or immoral effect. On this advice I decided to detain copies of tho nowspapers noticed in the mails. " •'As stated in an interview reported in the Evening Post, Wellington, of May 25 last, I knew nothing whatever of the religious views held by the 'paper, nor did I read any of the ordinary letterpress, as nothing in the body of the newspaper was marked for my perusal. Certain advertisements to women were marked, which I rtad, and my attention was called to Section 28 of the Post and Telegraph Act. "A copy of a subsequent issue of 'Tho Menace' has since been submitted;. and I do not 6ee in it any advertisements of tho nature of those referred to. Copies of the paper will not be detained unlesil they contain matter of a libellous, blasphemous, ■ indecent, or immoral nature, or likely to have an indecent or immoral effect. Moreover, if the proprietors of the publication undertake that no more advertisements of the kind in question will bo inserted, the embargo will at onco be removed. "Yours faithfully, "R. HEATON ItHODES." Bitter Sectarian Feeling. In his concluding remarks the Commissioner' says:— Somo of tlie papers coining addressed to Box 912 came to be regarded as likely to have a mischievous tendency; and the Box 912 being now under military censorship "The Menace" suffered, accordingly. Hence the association of ideas on the part of many loj'al citizens who objected to the political activities of the Boman Catholic Church. It has aroused a most bitter sectarian, feeling, which certainly is in no way lessened by tho style of oratory indulged in by Mr. Elliott. To my mind, it is most deplorable that at this particular time, when our (Empire is at deadly grips with an unscrupulous ehomy, and our soldiers are. doing their noble part to uphold our interests, irrespective of creed or country, that a crusade—for it is nothing else—should be entered upon to attack a church, the members of which must be deeDly pained at, and who will certainly reseVt, tho language that is being hurled at'them by such men as Mr. Elliott, who claim to represent a very numerous organisation. "No better illustration of what I moan —and this, I think, is a subject of fair criticism—could Iks cited than the contents of certain letters, which Mr. Elliott wrote or dictated and addressed to Box 912. They were intended as atrap, for the Post Offico, but failed of their purpose. Copies of these letters were produced to me; and after perusing them I refused to allow them to lie read in public, as I considered that their contents would causo deep pain and give serious offence to a great number of people belonging to the Roman Catholic Church. Mi , . ■ El- - liott admitted that these letters were fabricated by himself, and that the names and addresses were bogus; but they were addressed to tho Committee of Vigilance at Box l>l2. I am fain to believe that thoro are few ministers of religion who would havo thought of concocting such abominable and disgusting accusations against members of a Christian church as are contained in three of the letters, uailess ho wore so saturated with sectarian bitterness that he Joet all sense of propriety. Mr. Elliott states that he is a Baptist minister of 20 years' standing. Where is ■his charity? In his cross-examination by Mr. Gray he seemed utterly unable to appreciate tho invidious position in which he had placed himself in working, as he eaid, under the name of religion.

To use his own words, "he did not feel called upon to consider the feelings of Roman Catholics." I attach herewith to this report the copies of tho letters that I refer to, so that it may be judged as to whether my comments are not justified. They also throw a flood of light on to the foundation of the allegations made with respect to the influence ot the Roman Cathblio Church as regulating and influencing even tho Military Censor. People who would believe such stuff as ie contained in at least thrco of these letters would believe • anything. P.O. Officials "It was arranged between myself and ■ Mr. Morris, and Mr. Ostler, tho counsel for Mr. Elliott, that any postal officials that Mr. Ostlor desired as witnesses ior his side should be placed freely at his disposal if he would name at any stage those ho required; and an assurance was riven that no postal offioer would lie penalised for any evidence he might give.This was a totally unnecessary assurance to ask for, hut still it was freely given. However, as it turned out Mr. Ostler did not avail himself of the offer, and contented himself with cross-»xaminiiig those officials who were called by Mr" Gray. A great number of these were called and gave evidence on oath, ran.eing from tho Chief Postmaster, Mr. Williamson, down to tho letter--carriers who were alleged to lie connected with the missing letters and tho empty, envelopes. All the Post Office officials who "-ave evidence appeared to me to be the witnesses of truth, and they left a very favourable impression on my mind. Th°v were very straightforward and seemed as if there was nothing to conceal. I have no hesitation in stating that I am convinced that no postal official was rosnonsible for any improper t.r cbmi.pt dealing with any of the letters. The public may rest assured that the* very high reputation that the Postal Department has always enjoyed in this ?)onniiion, as ono of the most important De-nnrtm-nts.of State, has not in any way been lessened by the result of this inquiry."

DEBATE IN THE HOUSE

VERY PLAIN SPEAKING. . Sir Joseph "Ward was asked to state the general effect of the report of tho Commissioner. He saia that tho Commissioner had found that no wrong had been done by any member of the postal service Ho proceeded to read the findflie motion to print the report gavo riso to a debate that was in danger at times of becoming, acrimonious, Confidence Shaken. Mr. W. Nosworflvy said that ho lad not had time to examine tho findings fully, but it was "his opinion that nothing that had occurred over a long period of time hail done so much to shake public confidence in the Post Office as the evidence that had been given in this case. "I know what I am speaking about," he said, "and I know I am speaking for a'great number of the people of this country. This affair has shaken the confidence of the people in the postal service of this country. What I would like to say also is this: It is a strange thing thnt in n country like New Zealand we have had proof that a censorship. has boon established over the letter-box of a Protestant institution, while tho Soman. Catholic Federation's letler-box is not treated in this way. It is a very grave thing to havo to say in this House, but I am man enough to say it. The public of New Zealand iiro going to resent the attitude of certain gentlemen in connection with this matter. If the Government wished to tnko to_ itself the prerogative of interfering with the letters of private individuals, why did they not deal with the correspondence of labour unions, alxnit which thoro might be some suspicion that they would be using tliG Post Office In circulate matter tending to stir up strife and sedition ? There might have been some justification for might have been soma justification for this, but to apply the 'censorship only to this-Protesfnjit organisation is an insult to the whole of the Protestant community. . . . The Commission has cleared tho Post Office of all tho imputations against it, but it will tako a great deal more tlmn Hint to satisfy the people of this country that something very ftnich out of the way lias not happened. I, for one, say straightforwardly in this House that I am not satisfied with the Postal

Department in regard to what lias happened." Cries of "Oh!" Mr. J. S. Dickson: You aro .not tho only one.

"Simply Whitewash." Mr. J. S. Dickson said he was rather disappointed with the Postmaster-Gen-eral. It was tho custom, he believed, when a member asked lor an inquiry to givo him'n little notice when the report was coming down. lie had hoard by accident of this report, and ho had got bis information from a newspaper man who had been sending a message to his paper about it. Mr. Nosworthy: The Press gets to know before members of Parliament. That's tho way we are slighted. Mr. Dickson said ho was quite satisfied that tho finding was against tho weight of evidence. The Commissioner had simply white-washed tho postal service. He said that the ovidenco had shown that postal officials had done certain things in the interests of tho Soman Catholic Church. Mr. Isitt: Which one? Mr. Dickson: "It is for tho Postal Department to say." He added that tho committee of the Protestant Association in Auckland would probably not let the matter rest as it stood at present. Tho Department had held up letters, and had held up moneys, and the committee would probably 'go on to take tho matter into the Supreme Court. He maintained that the instructions issued by tho Solicitor-General were grossly improper. He had taken to himself powers which the Governor-General could not take and greater powers the Parliament- would givo authority for. On his instructions letters of the association had been held up which dealt only with Catholic matters and not at all with matters within the sphere of military censorship. It would take more than the report of the Commissioner to satisfy tho public Tight throughout Nfyv Zealand that everything was all right. Ho could say that the confidence of tho public had teen shaken, and largely because of tho fact that a great majority of the officials of the Auckland post offices were members of the Roman Catholic Church. "A Reckless Attack." The Hon. A. L. Herdman (AttorneyGenoral) defended tho report of the Commissioner, and attacked the Protestant Association for, some of its activities. "I feel certain of this," said Mr. Herdman, "that when the public of N«w Zealand read tho report, and when they have an opportunity of reading the evidence, they will cojne to the conclusion that no more ill-advised, reckless attack on the administration of any Department has ever been made in the history of this country. I presume it is better m speakin" on a subject of this kind, to declare "one's religion. I should like it to be understood thnt I am a Presbyterian (Laughter.) My people for generations past have been Scottish Presbyterinns" A refercMe had been made in this controversy to the fact that the Post Office hnrl etonned the circulation through Hip Post Office of a periodical ciilM "Tl<» Menu-":" TTo inni;Jr,imvl that this lmd nothing to do with the eubiect of this inriuirv. Mrmths nr.d months Vf"TP. when Mr. lihrvlps was ■Postmnstpr-GpTwrnl. the Post Office, rcfiippil to npoont Hi is naper bpcanso n fortnin pHvpi+ispments it. cnnrnvnivl. T.-iter when the naimr came into tlie rnuntrv witnmit Iho nWpptfonnWn s" l ™ - - I Amenta, it iw t»opi'v<"l by the Post Office in the ordinary way.

No Time for RMiqious Strife,

Hβ justified some of the restrictions placed upon the operation of dio "Vigilauco Couiinitteo" in dissoniiuiituig literature of a certain character through the Post Office. The view he took was that ■when the country was engaged in such a terrible war as it was at present, no eection of the community, no religious ovr ganisation, had any right to precipitate violent sectarian controversJr-iHeiir, hear)—and the Teuson why tho censor interfered with Box 912 was that it came to tho knowledge of the Gorormncnt thnt certain literature was being circulated through the country by the organise tion to which that ■'box belonged, which tended to provoke a violent sectarian squabble. One of the publications which came within this category, was that called "Rome's Hideous Guilt," in which an attempt was made to faston" the whole blame for the origin and continuance of tho war on the Pope and tho Church of Rome. The Vigilance Committee iu Auckland identified themselves with this publication. His attention had been drawn in the first instance to the circulation of this literature by the member for Wairnxnna. Ho at once sent a copy of the circular to the Crown Law Office, for consideration. He realised that he had to take a risk in speaking what wns in his mind on this subject.' His view was that (luring the war no man— Protestant or Catholic—had \ any right to engender strife. December of last year wns a critical time in New Zealand. The Military Service Act had been linwerl V ParlinmVvt.- and a certain amount of 'otrnositiou wns springing up against it. Semple hn,d iiist returned 'rom Australia flushed wTTh the triumnh lie had srnreri in .his notation against the conscription pronosal, there, and he had come back to this country with the avowed object of stirrins up so «mch strife as to' make ttie administration of the MHitaryi Service Act impossible. Why, Hion. at siic'i n time should not fhe (lovernnipnt" ston in to prov-ant thj , c.irc.uIntini'. of litfi'rnHivp-esfTPninlv off<">«ivo fn a rorlM'i sfctinn of tho r«nnli». liforntnrr liVelv to cnus» =n t""" 1 ' Hint it 'n«"M be lnndp fnr f'O n m . orTln ,pnf f n phitv on ini'ihirv nn»raHons? Sliz-Il ljt»T".tlilY. I'nvo n %n,l nr. or.Ustn.onl- !f tV fvpp oir-

■\f T TViiy didn't-yon dea?_witii the Catholics? "AM Tren'e'' Al'k^. Mr. Herdman said ho had been asked why the Government did not censor "Tho Tablet," which was tne official organ of the Catholic Church in New Zealand, and also why he did not censor "Tho Green Ray," another publication, not religious,' publibhed from "The Tablet" office. The reason why those periodicals wore not censored was because they were in circulation, and they came to the Government regularly. Mr. Nosworthy: You didn't take any steps to stop them, and there were some disgraceful tilings in them. Mr. Ttprdnnin said that he bad not prosecuted either of these two papers, imt if he had <Inne so there would havo been a perfect blaze of indignation right through the country. J[r. Lee: That wouldn't matter if it W.T tllP T>TOW!T tllhlß to (10. Mr. Herdman said Hint he did not think it would have been tho right thins to do, and hf> was not satisfied that any of the matter in those papers wns seditions. He was advised that ever, the publication "Home's Hideous Guilt" was not seditions. Tie had always made it a rule in regard to prosfcntions for se-. dition that the case should be quite clear before a prosecution was ordered. Nobody was ever prosecuted unless a conviction was certain to follow. Mr, Elliott's Meeting. ■ The result of the continuance of tho camnaign for the stirring up of sectarian strife might have been serious. Fortunately there was very little sectarian strife at present. Mr. Howard Elliott had made a speech at Hamilton, and at that meeting,there was something like a scene. At any rate, there was considerable opposition to what he was saying. The result of that meeting; yras that the Government told Mr Elliott that he , must not continue meetings of that kind, as they were liable to provoke disturbances. He was not flonwtned with tho sectarian aspect of the matter. His duty and his concern was to see that there was no disorder and that everv section of the community got fair n\ay", and that no feeling was aroused that would interfere with the nropw conduct of the war and of our military operations The responsibility for tho censorship was taken by Colonel Gibbon, and he was not a Catholic. Mr Herdman went on to examine in some detail the charges made against the Post Office, and the facts as proved by the I inquiry. One of the. charges was that, of I 2500 circulars sent through tho Post OfI fice. a large number had not ronch-d ' their destination; but what did the ini quiry show? That the total number i of circulars that did not reach their [ destination was nine. And not one of

tho circulars had over been seen by the censor at all. Mr. JJickson: They held them baci'. Mr. lieruniau said that soino of them might havo been held back ior a day or two, but they were eventually sent on. Mr. ijickson: Too late tor the buuday sorviecs—that is the point. Mr. Ik-rdman said that one <-f tho reckless, foumlationless statements tnat had been made was that the Catholics were given preference in the police, 'ihat was a matter which he had watched with the grcutest care. Me had been associated for the six years (luring which ho had had control of the police with two gentlemen who had been at the head of tho Force who were- Catholics. He knew those men thoroughly, and he know them to be absolutely loyal to him. He knew also that they had shown the greatest fairness in the matter of promotions and appointments. Reprehensible Methods. Somo of tho methods used by Mr. Elliott in the course of his campaign wore open to serious reprobation. One of the devices used to prove that the Post Office was interfering with tho correspondenco of the association was the sending oi fictitious letters through, the post. Ho understood that they were purely inventions. If so, they were much to be condemned. If they were not, then it was tho duty of Mr. 1 .iott to give the police all the information in his possession regarding the subject matter of them.' These lotters were sent from diiforent addresses in different parts of JSew Zealand to Box 912. He would read two of the letters to let the Houso know the character of them.

Mr. Herdniau read the letters. Ono I of them hinted that there was a secret lime-pit in a convent in which bodies could be desitroyod, and the other was a gross reflection on the chastity or mine. Tho second letter was received by the House with cries of indignation, and members asked Mr. Herdman not to read auy more. Mr. isitt said in indignant tones: "It makes one almost ashamed of being a Protestant." Mr. Herdman said that if tho author of the letters believes that the statements in them were true, it was his duty to lot the police know all about them. If they were inventions it was difficult to conceive how a man who was a minister of religion could go into the privacy of his room and invent such villainous letters. Mr. Herdmaa said in conclusion that ho hoped his attitude would not bo misunderstood. Ho was not concerned in the controversy as between Catholic and Protestant. His only concern was to prevtnt a breach of the law. He considered that this kind of thing should not be allowed to go on in war time. It must, if permitted, militate conduct or the war. Threats to Members. Mr. J. T. M. Hornsby (Wairarapa) said that he considered it a shocking thing that members of any 'aith ehouild be wantonly subjected to opprobrium. Jiueh conduct was an insult to our Allies, who were almost exclusively Catholic, and to the Catholics in our own Army. Hβ hoped that there would be no more attempts to fooler religious strife. Threats were made to members of .the House that they ivould never get back into Parliament- if they did anything to prevent this Mr. Elliott from going on '.vith lis campaign. ■ Mr. ftosworthy and others: That is Lot true. Cries of "Order." Mr. Hornsby said that his statement was absolutely correct. He himself had been threatened in this way. No r/.an, unless his mind were a corrupt and filthy one, could have given vent to tuch villainous letters. The Hon. K. Heaton Rhodes ' (Ellesmere) eaid that ho had as PostmasterGeneral stopped the circulation thveugh the Post Office of the paper "The Menaco" because of the objectionable advertisements it contained. The paper contained quite a number of them. As soon, as the paper was free of these r.dvertisoments it went into circulation again. Tho circulation was 6topped in June, 1914. and it was circulated again in i< rgust, 1914. Mr. J. Payne (Grey Lynn) said that ho was a Freemason, and as Freemasons wore supposed to be the enemies cf the Catholic Church lie would not be regarded as biased in favour of that Chmch. His speech was a denunciation .of sectarian bitterness and a dissertation on the Irish question. Too Little Christianity. Mr. G. Witty (Riccarton.) eaid there w;w too much religion in New Zealand and too little Christianity. It was a very great pity that sectarian bitteruess should be fostered at the present time. The inquiry had been a perfectly fair one, and the report would satisfy unbiased men that the charges made against the Postal officials had not been justified. Mr. P. C. Webb (Grey) said he agreed that there was far too much sectarian feeling in the House and the country. Sectarianism was a blight on civilisation. Any man who tried to introduce it into the Labour movement was committing a black crime. There was a strange difference between tlie treatment accorded a clergyman who had deliberately sowed seeds of discontent and disunion and tho drastic penalties enforced bgainst workere who were alleged to have produced discord. If the men. now in gaol on charges of seditious utterances had been properly imprisoned, the clergyman should ho locked up also. The member for Ashburton had done harm to the community by his utterances on sectarian subjects. Mr. Nosworthy:' Who etartad it? Mr. Webb: "I don't know. I did not.'-' Ho hoped that tho sectarian microbe would be left out of the Parliament of New Zealand..

Mr. J. M'Conibs (Lyttelton) referred to "the loathsome fabrications" for which a certain clergyman had been responsible Mr. L. Jl. Isitt (Christciiurch North) said ho would put copies of the" letters and of Mr. Elliott's statements before the heads of the BttptistsChurch. He believed that when the filthy and blackguardly concoctions ■ had been read tlio offender would bo dropped very quickly. Ho hoped that when the people of the Dominion, knew tho offences of which this man had-been guilty no minister of any Church would soil himself !>y having any contact whatever with nim. SIR JOSEPH WARD IN REPLY. SECTARIANISM DEPRECATED. Sir Joseph Ward, in reply, 6aid the Tβport endorsed tho integrity and honour of the postal officers. He had not had any hesitation in promising an inquiry when tho matter was first mentioned in tho House. He had then known nothing of the facts, but he had said at onco that ho believed tho charges to be untrue. Ho did not know, what were tho creeds of tho postal officers in Auckland or,any other centre. Tho men. who entered the service wero not asked what religion they professed. No man had ever beon promoted in the Post Offico on account of his religion, or debarred from promotion on that account, Tho member for Pamoll had said that Catholic employees could not bo trusted. That was an unfortunate viow. Prominent employers did not hold it. It would be a terrible thing if sectarian differences were introduced into the Public Sen-ice. He had controlled in liis time nearly every Department of tho State, and excepting from one section of the community he had never heard of this sectarian bitterness. He had taken no part in tho inquiry, r Ho did not know the Magistrate personally. He had not known until the last day or two what was the religion of the Ceneor, against whom charges had beon made. The Censor was a Presbyterian. There had been a censorship over since tho outbreak of the war, and it had to be maintained in the public interest. Tho men. who had originated the whole trouble could have ascertained that fact easily, and could havo learned why certain letters had been delayed. Sir Joseph Ward added that he. was one of a minority which had complete tolerance for other people's opinions. He had never talked to any member of the House about any person's religion. Ho believed that the great majority of the people wanted no religious quarrels, though an attempt was being made to stir up sectarian strife, for, he believed, political purposes. (Hear, hoar.) Similar things had been dono in other countries, but tho boomerang had always come back to those who threw it. ■ Tho mass of the people did not believe in having sectarian" troubles. .It was the proper thine to avoid sectarian and • sectional quarrels at any time, and particularly at the present timo. Protestants and Catholics were fighting and praying side by

sido in the national cause. Surely it was not too much to hope that the religious animosities that had blackened eoine of the pages of liistory would not be allowed to arise in New Zealand. He moved that the report and the evidence, with the letters attached, ehould bo printed. The' motion was adopted.

REV. MR. ELLIOT AND THE REPORT

INTERVIEWED IN DUNEDIN. fly Telegraph—i'ress Association. D\inedin, September 13. The Kev. Howard Elliott, interviewed to-night, said he was disappointed at the finding of tho Commission, but not eurprised. The central committee, on learning that Mr. Bishop was to act as commissioner, endeavoured to get a. Supremo Court Judge appointed, and ho felt more strongly now tnan ever that this course was warranted, lie pointed out that Mr. Bishop had overlooked the fact that while censorship was established over Box 912, the pamphlet "Koine's Hidtous Guilt" had been banned by the Solicitor-General, and at tho same time "The Tablet" and "The Green itay" were publishing matter which, if not seditious, was certainly disloyal. Mr. Elliot said ho stated distinctly in evidence that the letters to which Mr. Bishop referred were not fabrications—only Hie names and addressee being fictitious.