THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1225, 6 September 1911, Page 7

THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

MR. HARDY'S EVIDENCE. QUESTIONS BY MR. MASSEY AND SIR J. CARROLL. THE HISTORY OF THE SALE. The Native Affairs Committee continued its inquiry into tho Mokau- land transactions yesterday. Members present woro: Mr. W." T. Jennings (chairman), Sir Jas. Carroll, tho Hon. A. T. Ngata, Dr. To Eangihiroa, and Messrs. W. H. Hemes, T. B. T. SeddOn, P. Mander, B. Dive, and T. 4 PaTata\ Messrs. W.' F. Massey, F. C 4. Dalzieli, and J. Jones attended. The examination of Jlr.. B. H. Hardy was continued. Mr. Hardy stated that he had noted down some particulars at leisure sinco his previous examination. Ho had answered in the affirmative a question as to whether he had agreed, with Mr. Bell that the sale should be opposed. In justice to himself he. mnst state that Mr. Tuiti Jtacdouald had acted as counsel for tho Natives and had usually been an. intermediary between- the Natives and witness. ,That there was an. objection to the sale went without saying becauso it was a corollary to the issue'of a writ. In the third place Mr. 801 l .had said lhafc in all probability he would be. present at tho sitting • of the board on March 10. Jlr. Bell, .was not. engaged continuously but,, a* circumstances arose, i'he amount of money which he was to get was to bo arranged' for. He was engaged ' pro re pata.' y Jlr. Bell had put it on record that it was through witness and Macdonald that ho did not,get to Te Kuiti. Witness had gone to explain to Ml. Bell when he was in town a month ago that ho was not responsible for this.. He had wanted to publish his. explanation and had asked Mr. Bell if he should, but the latter said "No." He would read telegrams, which passed between Jlr. Bell and .himself in reference to Mr. Bell's presence at ' tie meeting at Tβ Kuiti on Jlarch 10. Some Tejegrams. On March 6 Mr..Bell telegraphed: "Do you wish -mo to conie up in time for cleaT day before meeting. • Think sufficient if-1 arrive morning of meeting and see Natives after meeting. Will you kindly .arrange for bedrooms somewhere for solf and T. W. Lewis. Arrive together, Tβ Kuiti, Friday, 2 a.m., and leave again Saturday morning. . Please reply to-day wherei "so that we may go there on arrival." ..On the same clay witness replied that he had provided accommodation. On the following day Mr. Bell telegraphed: "Thanks- for telegram about rooms, but await your replv whether you consent my not coming. Much prefer stay in Wellington." Witness .replied: "Macdonald says impossible to adjourn. Has evidently settled his plans. I will not proceed with adjournment application. Will:ascertain Macdonaid's. view re your attendance and report." Op the same day witness telegraphed to Mr. Macdonald asking whethei h& required Mr Bell's - attendance on Jlarch ID. Mr. Macdonald . replied:. "Mr. 'Bell not required. Will arrive Thursday morninj. . Witness telegraphed to Jlr. Bell: "Macdonald advised not necessary for you to come." He then received'- the following telegram from Mr. , .Bell: "Shall be greatly relieved if you consider my attendance meeting.unnecessary. Please reply to-day .'whether you agree irit>i,Macdonald or not."_ lie replied: "Y<.u need not come. Will Lewis be coming?" Mr. Bell replied: "Neither Mr. Lewis nor I will come." Witness said he would leave it to the committee to judge whether he ha-1 done right. ■ "Not the Ghost of a Show." Mr. HaTdy continued that in due course - tho meeting on' March 10 came off. Mr. Dalziell was there and all "our people." A preliminary meeting was held for-tlio : marshalling oft proxies and gathering their forces. It became quite clear to Mr. Dalzieli that he, ( .had not. the. "ghost of a show" to carry the proposal .that Jlokau-should-,bo sold for- Mb,OW. Mr. Dalzieli said he was very sorry,-but that his instructions were very definite —if the Natives did not accept the terms offered by seven o'clock that evening he would have to with-lra-.v his-offer. . At (his lcoks of chagrin. appeared on tho faces of "tho other side. Mr. Andrew Pepene got up and said that he did not like that talk at all. He practically told.Mr. Dalzieli to go to blazes. Jlr. Massey: Was Pepene not in favour of selling? Witaess: "Yes, he was on the otkn , - eide. He,was very much amoved that Mr. Dalzioll should suggest the possibility of his withdrawing the offer." Tho result of the meeting was a decision to recommend the board toadjoum until such time as the matter could be disenssed in a torero and a decision arrived at. At ( a subsequent meeting of owr-ers held at Jlohoenui the matter was discussed by everyhody. In the evening a meeting •which lasted until 12 o'clock at night was held at Cole's Boardinghoupe, Te Kuiti, nnd attended by practically ail who held shares. The largest shareholders, who , could turn tho scale, were all present. A Crisis, . To Mr. Jlassey: About 20 Natives were present. In a caso of this kind 108 owners might be represented by ten people. After discussing pros and cons, the Natives decided that they .would have to sell, and asked for his advice. He told them that a crisis had arrived in their affairs, and that ho would tell tllom of a matter ■which he had kept back for quite a month. Jlr. David White, of Hastings, had called upon him on February 11, and put before him a proposal in regard to acquiring the Mokan coalmining rights. Air. Dalzieli was at this stage permitted to ask tho witness: "The meetiuj to which- you refer was a meeting of Natives onlv?" —Yes. Witness said that Jlr. Dalzieli knew nothing about this. In fact, he and Mr. Dalzieil were enemies. Mr. Massey: "Up to a certain point." Witness said Jlr. David White had explained to him that a company would be formed, in which ho was a prime mover, to take over tho Mokau Coal Comfany, and also to take over the Mokau[ohakatino Block by purchasing the leases or tho freehold if possible. To Mr. Jlassey: He thought this.meeting with Mr. White was about the end of January or the middle of February. Ho could not remember the exact date. It was precedent to tho meeting of Natives in Cole's Boarding-house. Jlr. Jlassey: "Was it prior to tho first meeting of assembled owners?" Witness could not ?ay. Jlr. White, no doubt, could say. Ho'thought that it was about the beginning of February that ho met Jlr. White. Ho had reserved Jlr. White's offer because lie considered that it w.as confidential, but when a desper- . ate crisis arose he had to suggest something. Ho saw Jlr. White's proposal and the names of all the shareholders in the ■ new company, Jlr. Whito asked him to put down his name for 400 .CIO shares, tut ho said: "No, you have got into tho wrong shop; I am right up against you and I am against your company." He added that if he had any money to invest ho would prefer to put it into sheep and cattle, where he could be sure of a good dividend. He told tho Natives that he understood a company was being formed by some people at Hastings to take over the Jlokau-Jloluikntino Block. Ho understood that tho capital of tho company was i£loo,ooo. Ho said that in order to appease the sentimental objections ut those Natives who did not wish to sell they misht get some shares in tho company. They would thus still retain an interest in the company for their lives. Somebody said. "How many shares should wo ask for?" and witness, after a little thought, suggested ten per cent, of tho •£25.000 which was to be paid for tho land; that was to say, ,£2500 worth of shares. .To Sir James Carroll: The proposal was made to sellers and non-sellers, but mainly to their own people. Witness proceeded that he understood from -Mr. White that the headquarters of tho company were at I'almerstou. Jlr. Massoy: Did you have a talk with Mr. Dalzieli before going to Palinerslon? —No j I kept Mr. Dalzicll at arm's length. Ho was honest enough not to coino to me. I was never approached in any way by thorn and what 1 did was entirely on my own responsibility. I went to Palmerston and I', called upon Jlr. Loughnan. Mr. Massey: Who was ho, by the way? Witness: £lo was solicitor, I understood, for the company, He- thought that

.Mr. White had mentioned thai Mr. Loughnan was solicitor to the company. In any event ho wrnt to Mr. Loughnau and put the matter before him ami told him fiiuL the i\'ativcs wanted to retain r.n interest in the hind. Mr. White told him that thoy wero- buying, or proposed to buy, tho Alokau coal business tor JMS.OUU. The chairman askoi Jf.r. Hardy t'o confine hiuiself to tho subject of inquiry. Mr. Jlassey asked Uie witness to return to his interview -with. Sir. Loughnan. The witness said he had referred to Mangapapa because tho Kntivos had an interest in that block after getting tho shares, it wns 'difficult to disassociate without dissembling, Mr. Louglinan liad made no suggestion to him in reference to tho shares. 110 laid tho proposal beforo Mr. Loughnan that the Natives should bo given X'soo of shares in addition to tho ,£25,0011. Jlr. .Loughnan agreed on behalf of his principals, ho presumed. To Mr. Massoy: He also saw Jlr. Mason Chnmbers who said that it was a very fail" proposition and that ho was quite satisfied. Ho did Jiot know whether Mr. Mason Chambers was chairman of tho company or not. No document was drawn up as ' Dctween himself and tho Natives and tho company. It was simply a verbal arrangement. Mr. i'ossey: Tho offor of JJ2500 worth of dhares' was sum'cient to induco you to 'change your mind in regard to tho salo of tho block. Witness: I kept a perfectly open mind and said that i must put this beforo tho Katives. Meeting of Natives. On his return n meating .of the Natives was hold at Mohoeuui. they were then told to bo suro to attend jho meeting at Tβ Kuiti on Mnrch.22. Everybody was present at (to meeting at Tβ- Kuiti. To Mr. Massey: Tho room on that occasion was pretty well full., Thero were representatives of tho Natives . on both sides. Witness was not at tho meeting and did not tako any activo part in tho board business at all. The man who did that was Jlacdouald. Mr. Massey: You came in keforo the meeting was over?— Yes. Was the offer put beforo the Natives?— I can't tell. Did j'ou explain to the Natives the result of your interview with Mr. Loughnan at Palmerston t— No, Dayman and Maedonald and Mr. Dalzieli did that, There was a voto?—Yes, no one objected. Witness added that a show of hands was. taken, and not one hand was raised for tho negative. Ho had not pointed out to the Natives the advantage of accepting tho proposal, but did what he could, among those who could speak English, to make the matter known as much as possible. He presumed that the shares were held in trust for the.Natives, to be sold when the necessity might arise. - You have not satisfied yourself en that point yei?—No. * You commenced by baing a very strong opponent of the sale and acted for the 77 pei , cent, of the owners who were opposed to the'sale. When it came to the actual sale you were on tho other-sido?— Oil no, I was not. I simply let them decide the question. • Mr.. Massey: I can't understand your change of front. Witness said it lay with the owners. The change of front did not rest with him at all. He had not changed his mind, and said now omphatically that no other sum had been mentioned as an alternative to the .£25,000. Sir 'James Carroll: I think we ought to make it clear. Hβ started out to fight the title. ■ Mr. Massey: No; to fight the sale. Seventy-seven per ceut. of tho Natives were opposed to the sale. Proxies. Witness said ho had given distinct, instructions that no proxies of people who had the slightest objection should bo used at the meeting. Mr. Massey: Wcro the proxies used at all?—I could not say; Is I have said, I kept in the background, and had nothing to do with -law matters. He was only to come in when a suggestion was needed to help the- meeting. Witness went on to state that the peoplo at Mokau who ha'l objected to the sale were two or three- old people. .'.■."Mγ Missey: I suppose you nreawaro' that we have had- evidence that a very large proportion of the Natives opposed the sale? . Witness: No, I don't think so. At the first meeting, most of them, as was tho habit of Natives, said nothing. One could only infer from their conduct what they thought. Was Mr. Dalzieli present at all meetings of assembled owners while you were there?—l presume he was. Don't'you think it should have been your duty to see that the Natives were properly represented by counsel in ini-' portant negotiations such as these?—Tho telegrams show- that I was in communication with them. Then why did yon not tr.gage counsel for the purpose?— There was not time. Besides I only took instructions from my superiors—tho Natives—they were all there. : Everybody knew that in dealing with Natives if one interfered too much he was liable to be told to :hut up. But you were paid for your services? — No; I have not boon paid yet. You have made a claim.—No. I have got it here. Mr. Massey held th« statement of accounts obtained from Mr. Bowler, a previous witness, who said he had got it from Mr. Hardy. Witness said he had never really given the statement away, to had lent it to Mr.Bovier. The statement was not intended to be final Tho amounts ho claimed frnn tho Natives included si bonus of .£55 10s. on the .£2500 of shares. He had had a second interview with Mr. LoughHian at Pal nerston about a month ago, but did not think any new arrangements had been then made. "In the Open." At this point witness begged Mr. Massey to be more definite in his questions. He had been asked not to bring in too much detail, and while he was willing to speak, did not know exactly what his questioner desired to know. "You aie lighting behind a sang'ar, while I am in tho open," remarked tho witness. Mr. Massey said he had dene for tho time being To Sir Jas. Carroll, witness stated that' Mr. Bell had not only suggested that a sum,of £800 would bo required in addition to the first ,£IOO, but had said that perhaps a further couple of thousand might be required in case tho matter went to the Privy Council. Mr. Bell had said that he would probably attend the meeting of assembled owners. He did not say to witness that the sum of ,£IOO would be sufficient to take him to To Kuiti and back. , He said that the printing of documents and other expenses would fully cover the' .£IOO. It could not possibly bo meant that tho .£IOO should cover Mr. Bell's expenses to To Kuiti. Questions by Sir J. Carroll, Sir Jas. Carroll: Mr. Bsll stated in evidence that he could have gone to Te Kuiti and back easily within tho .£IOO. Witness offered no further explanation. Together with the Natives ho represented ho had certainly desired Mr. Bell's presence very much. He had expected to receive a telegram asking for £ia or ,£SO to cover Jlr. Bell's expenses. Sir Jas. Carroll: Did he ever, at your meetings, explain that it wns absolutely necessary that tho Natives should have legal advice? Witness: No; I.have explained that hs was engaged pro ro nata to act as circumstances arose. Sir Jas. Carrol!: With regard to titles of the different blocks, did ho make it clear that one of the blocks was,'in his opinion, assailable? Witness: As far as he was able to say, Mr. Macdouald was just as anxious as ho was to see that justice was_ done the Natives in every wny. The Natives wero afraid that if they took another step they would render themselves liable to attack by the other side. Sir Jas. Carroll: The outlook was not very bright? Witness said he fought as long as he could, but left to tho Natives the decision as to what should be done. Sir Jas. Carroll: The mat tor of financo for litigation purposes and their having a feeling that it might involve them in tremendous expense, in view of the fact it there were proposals for sale, inducffd your clients to gradually change their minds towards tho proposal for salo? Witness: Yes, that is rjuito right. They were not influenced in any way by me. Tho decision to soli was unanimous. Questioned by Sir Jns. Carroll as to tho value, of the Mokau lnnd, witness said he valued about f>ooo acres of the block at about .£1 per acre. The land on the Mangapapa sido was much more valuable. He considered tho price of .£25,000 a very fair one. Had not tho salo occurred, the laud of the Natives would,

have been locked up for twenty or thirty years. The Maoris meanwhile were living in destitution, and were making nothing out of their land. ' Mr. Massey: Do you think you could buy it tor twice the money now, Mr. Hardy?—if the company is wise, very promptly. To sir James Carroll: The position that they wero in accounted for the change of mind on the par!: of the Natives, it could not bo suggested that tho Natives ho wns working for liad come to some uiulersta.idir.g to throw Mr. Bell over. Tho telegrams would show that ho threw no obstacle in tiio way of Mr. Bell being present it was mil a. move to disregard or dispci'o with Mr. Hell's services so that the Native agents could- take up the 'case and carry it out themselves. Neither himself nor. Air. Macdonald had desired to get rid of Mr. Beil. Mr. Jones at this stage asked leave to put <". question to tho chairman or Jlr. Massey while the witness was present. Lcavo was refused. To tho Hon. A. T. Ngata: He had not interviewol any member of the Government or any of their representatives with regard-to this matter. He knew members of the board, but had not interviewed tho ii the negotiations, ilo had had nothing to d) with Hermann Lewis. Proxies were obtained from the owners by Messrs. Dayman and Jlacdouald. Ho did not know when. No inducement had been held out by him to the Natives to sell. To Sir James Carroll- Jlr. Bell had not seemed to bo sanguine as to tho Natives being successful iu attacking any of the leases. To Jlr. Seddon: He did not think tho coal prospects on Hio Mokau Blocks worth much. Ho did not think tho mining prospects worth anything, economically speaking. Tho chairman: Do you think there has been any gold lost up that way? . Witness: I think thero will bo a great deal moro lost in tho future. . Tho chairman . said that Professor Thomas, an Auckland geologist, had reported that the minerals ir. tho block were worth nothing. . Mr.' Dalzieli asked leave to put a question, but permission was denied, as it had been in the caso of a similar request by Mr. Jones. Tho c.immitteo adjourned until 10.30 a.m. to-day, when the examination of Jlr. Hardy will bo continued. Jlr. R. M'Nab has been named as a future witness.