THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 534, 15 June 1909, Page 4

THE HOUSE.

HARBOUR BOARDS' REPRESENTATION. i t F*\*ff THE ADDRESS-IN-REPLY. The House met at 1030 am yesterday The -SPEAKER reported that hie Excellency the Governor would receive tho Ad-dress-in-Reply at 11 n m The Address would I bo presented at Government House by hunI self, the moier, and seconder, and ho would have to Joavo tho chair for that purpose . .LOCAL BILLS. *i The Whangorei , Act, 1907, Amendment Bill was introduced by Mr Mandor (Mait4en). The Bill was read a first tune J \ Tho Whangarei, /Hobso.n, Bay of Islands, and Hokianga, Corfnties , Boundanes , "Adjustment Bill, introduced by Mri.Mauder. was also read a first timo \ Tho first reading took place of tho Timaru Borough Loans' introduced by Mi Craigio, , < Tho Hcroee then adjourned during the pietentation of the Address. ' CONSTITUTION OF HARBOUR BOARDS. On resuming, tho Hon J MILLAR, Wamstor for Marine, presented tho annual accounts of harbour<boards Mr WILFORD asked the Prime Minister if ho would give an opportunity to have tho question of tho constitution of haiboar boards discussed b> the Houso. The Harbours' Association had considered tins matter, and referred it to each separate harbour board to make representations on the tion under the Local Authorities' Superannuation Bill, such representations to bo brought before the House Mr. RUSSELLi .(Avon) said-(that, on behalf of a very largeVproportion:. of-the people-of Canterbury headset!-;that: legislation: would be provided to,place,tho election of harbour boards on H a The vory.impor-. lant project orltlie Sumrier Canal was now completely blocked,". owing" to vtho; manner in whiob tho Harbour Board was constituted.

-: ■ Mr. MASSEY ': said- he hoped'tho; Government, and;€speoially,tho Minister for Marine, 1 would;take'_Mis'._matt6r:;.into.-their,; most serious consideration, and give parliament an opportunity to alter the!: law and-'give repre-. ■"sentatioii to a very large part of th? population.which'was not properly: , represented nt ■;present.-';.-:--.'-;'.'- ':■■-■■ f- : .'■'■■/- \:.;..':.,■ Mr. HARDY; (Selwyn). said; ho .desired! to take exception to the remarks of'the Leader of the. Opposition,; on the ground that in Canterbury /the. country .districts..were well 'represented: ->i. (MfrV V Witty. :)' The constitution of the ■ harbour boards .was 'really;of more vital .importance to the■ pro.ducers, vthe| 'country, 'people,- than' to, the townspeople. -In Canterbury they were very well served by^tho : representative's - on. the Harbour. '• Board, ■•; and'he'; hoped that -serious ;Considerati6ri would bo taken. \befofo ...there was any alteration made.-- : - ■'■■"•.,■■■' -.'■■■."■

Serjous Dissatisfaction !ri';the-Country. .' '[' -MV.-' (Wnirarapa) ;rotorted 'that"'Caht'orbnry|was" i iiot ;tHe /wKolecoloiiy.' . ■ Dissatisfaction', in .: the .country ' districts ','. gpnorally.'.whs .-very-wide and Very -well :.'.''founded. ."'..■ '■■• ''':- ■' ■ :' •.■'■■'■; , ■ ■■ ■ ••■ Mr: WITTY .(Riccarton)'did not agree that ;_ Canterbury was well served by tho roprcscn- ~. tativeson;.tho.'Harbour, Board. Tho people 'of ■-. Oantorbury ,werp;"vcry ; much dissatisficd^vith tho present systemof nomination, and /Telt "keenly, that an eleefcivo : system shonld be -: substituted. .:':•'-'■' :"','■ ■■'■'■: ■'■'■' ■; : :Mr.POOLE (Auckland West) urged that 'the present system: was. not satisfactory »o .many/of tho people, and, should bo placed on broader'franohise.: The. people who ' paid '■'. dnos should have a • direct vote in regard to ~ representation on harbour boarda.V Tlie men ;; elected to these.boards shonld have' somo practical, knowledge of the work, othorwiso .millions oLnioney could be_sunk in Wasteful .■'■•-works .-vritbont tho conveniences . tmd safegxiarde of tho master mariners being con- • ewered.' •:■.■.■..;.■■....■ ..;:■'-..■ ■■■<.■■ ;V : Mr. M'LAREN said.vthat, thoi! waterside :. workers of - New, 'Zealand; had obhsidoretl' tihia ;.;■ ;qiiEstjon, iacd tbey'claimecl{that they shouia have roprosentatioiv-and /also, tliat tho. con- :.-: suraing pnbliejßhonld be.-.ffully:j're'presente(l. :. Men wcro required on harboni 1 ' boards who -. ihad an: intimate 'knowledge ; nf''their:-affairs. Tho earliest opportunity/.'should be given for ■-,- discussing, this--question','' for .'the present' franehi_so:was:-6dmething. ; of an abortion;-it ■; : was neither democratic nor just. . " ■ Mr. LANG.:(Manukau) also spoke in favour ■'.':of. *>«tter,.:l'DPidsehtaiian , ' [ica the produceijL

"'■Mr/'PIELB'. ifotaki) said that there was dissatisfaction in-'the country districts with their-representation on the Wellington Harbdnr Board. ".'. .

: Mr. LUKE urged ,that the matter could not be discussed too early,' because things had happoned in connection with several of the harbour boards that were not to their credit. .It was timo that the nominative systom_ was ■ brpken.;.down.- The condition of affairs that took place in Auckland in regard to.cranes could not have happened in any 'other ibody. ■ . ■■■■■' : '■■ Mr. HALL (Waipawa) spoke in support of an alteration. ..- ; 'Ell,, Craig]e,V Buxton'i und other members also spoke. '•'•■' Mr, Millar In Reply. '■■.■ The' Hon'. J.' A. MILLAB, Minister for Marine, said that during the last, two sessions Bills,had beqn brought down in'regard both to harbour'boards , constitution and the question-of representation. On tho question of representation,, so much trouble had been raised that it was impossible to put th.e Bill through.'There wore harbours in this country that had rating powers and exercised -them,' and others, that had. none. The proposal brought down' by the Government was that the boards should be made elective, one man one vote. The Government was always being .asked .to ,:bo. guided ;by. tyiq Municipal 1 Conference,, the \, County Councils' " Conferonce, .'and' other.' conferences, but the Harbour- BoardsV Conferoncoi -'itself gone n0..-further "in ;-.this- -matter than to Tefer 'it •; to. ..the separate harbour boards... Until".,the Goveromont received back their representations'they had no idea what'tho harbour; boards, who were the governing bodies at the present-time, .would recommend. Ho recognised that :the question of franchise should -not-be dealt with by the boards.' '.That"matter was now under consideration by tho Government, and possibly might be-brought forward; next session. DREADNOUGHT OFFER. MOTION BY THE PRIME MINISTER. 'AGREED TO IN AN AMENDED FORM. ■■' "ttpon "the"-, notice 'of. ; 'motion' dealing with 'tlio Dreadnought offer having been rcaohed, .■;.;Mr;;-FISHER- (Wellington Central) said he wished'to'.raise a matter- which, he thought should be brought up.before the motion was discussed. 'Was it ah' bversight or inten-. tional that certain" dispatches had not been made public? The dispatches from tbe Home Country,to New Zealand had been published, but what were, of great' importance—the dispatches fronvVNew Zealand to. tho Home Country—had been omitted. ' ;,"Tho;Prime ...Minister,,.(Sir,..Joseph Ward) said that all : the "dispatches excepting those which were confidential had been printed. ';: -Mr. .Fisher:-.': Dispatches have been published ,wiich are replies jto the others that we have not seen.-''V";.•■■'■■«."■?'■ -. .... .'■.-'

.Sir. Josfeplh: The ordinary course has been followed.'! I' don't know whether I am ' ex_peflted to manufacture anything. Confidential /dispatches must always be treated as confitl3c.ntial. fe:,. jv -..-■■ .;;.-:»-■ . . : ; -.. M. MMscyn- .'Who makes -tihem confiden:m?: :-ty::;^ : ':- : ■ " ;-.;■ ..■•.- .: ..... ■ — Sir -'-'.Toseph': The senders aid the receivers should respect that confidence., i ~ \ .SPEECH "fIY.TKE. PRIME MINISTER.' I ; The PRIME MIJSfLSTER then moved a reBolution confirming the offer of the Dreadnought to the Home Government. The motion as it, stood'wasas follows:— •:'' ,_, "That ; this ;''Ho'use.-approves ■of the ac- '■: tion- of- tietGovernmen-t in its offer of ~ assistance, to the Imperial Navy,in the., terms.convoyed to Ms Majesty's-. Home Government in of March 22 ■ last." . ■;■ 'yV: : , -f-i ;■';•;■ ..•'•'•'■ ■Sir. Joseph . said' that in order to secure bnanimity::with.'.Tega,rd to the offer ho would 'elightly :am6iid : it ; :to>;'read: ■ , : ' ;. . ~'That thij House confirms the offer of .;",'assistance'; fey-tho Impe-rial Navy in the ";■• terms'conveyed to his Majesty's, Home .-Governmen ; t r .in 'dispatch' of March 22 ■ihswl'.v.'Ki': ?■'■'■'S'.'fi :■ ' ■■■■■■- .'

'--Sir Joseph'hoped that in its altered form the'motion would receive tho support of every membor- of the House. Before Hie House rose-ho; would, lay'on tho tablo a report of the proceedings.at-tho-inforraal/meeting of the House., In:that way he .hoped to anticipate a. lot of discussion which' had already taken not-his; intention again to delength tho rejftons which' aotuated the. Government in making the offer. All he need say was that the offer was made in the truest interests of Now Zealand, 1 of the Homo.Country,'and of the Empire. Gift SupporteVby all- Classes. ''..■■ ;.■•. The' offer- had met with the endorsement press of-the Dominion. Tien; .again, not' a pnblic body had passed a resolution against'; it;' on tho contrary, a large number had "passed resolutions approving; of ;it.;.,F.urther,. he. had received many hundreds of. congratulatory communications from people of all classes. If was not necessary, he. they should be placed ,on : record..'.: Hβ:- .had , received only two • coinmunications-T-wbich • came from .self-constituted bodies—in which exception- was . . taken'•■■■ to the offer. From ;end to end. of -the .Dominion there was a consensus of opinion that tho offer was a proper.one.' .He -might also, mention that' during the course of; tho' informal meeting and of speeches made so far in, the Houso, no objection had been raised -to the offer of tho; Government; to .give-;. assistance < to the Home authorities. The outlying countries of the Empire should show other nations that they .were prepared to do their share to assist in its defence, . ■ ~ •.:;■..••■•■ Offer Matto at the Bight Time. New Zealand hid.made her offer at' an important 'epoch: in .the 'history of tho Empire, when was necessary to. show .a-bold front. The action of the government in making tho offer as it did involved the fate of the Administration. After an event of the kind it was an easy matter to find fault with tho way in which it was. done. In the same circumstances any- Government would have been open to criticism. Some people had said that the Government had not acted constitutiorially..- It was said by. some that the Executive ought first .to have consulted tho mem-bers-by telegram;-The Government had believed that'prompt, actidn-yros essential if tho moral effect, which was desired was to bo secured. Upon that point all ho need add was,that.'the Government accepted the responsibility involved in making tflie offer in the way. m.whioh it. had been" made. In conclusion, lio expressed the hope that membeTS would ■Tiso'nbovo.projudico and not allow minor» matters to sway them.' They should, show -that it was Now Zealand's desire; to ■ take its part in strengthening the defences of the Empire, MR. MASSEY'S REMARKS. ■ NEED FOR LOCAL DEFENCE. ' Mr.';MASSEY. said that the alteration' .in thofforni off'thb;-resolution made it possible 'for .'him .to'support-it. -Hoi would not havo been able to support it in'its original form. The resolution could be further improved if the words "in its offer of assistance" were deleted. V.The-.meaning, would remain tho saraej but -the wording would be. bettor. Besides the question as to whether the Government .did right <": >vrong in making the offer, there wtea . ffesr Doint: Should thej

not first have consulted Parliament? He was of opinion that the Government did not do right in passing over members. It would iiavo been infinitely better if the Government, m its first dispatch, had stated that it intended to submit the offiir to Parliament when it mot. Parliament had been slighted—had bean .. ignored—in connection with the 1 matter. Was it not possible to have convened Parliament? «.™» his opinion that tho representative of the Sovereign had tho right to convene Parliament at any timo he "deemed proper. Hβ iJiflr. Masscy) was not one of those who nail suggested that the Prime Minisier ought to have consulted the.membprs by telegram, for bo did not approve of a procedure of that kind. ■ ; Parliament Should Have Made the Offer. .... ■It ■ would have been a much better oiler if Parliament had made it, instead .of the Government. For the Primo Minister now to say that the Government accepted the responsibility was- not a fair. ,positiori to take apj because it made the question a party, one. He (Mr. Massey) • did not want to.see Imperial questions made,party questions.. , In . addition to tbo point. which he had raised, there was the question of the control-of the expenditure,.which was one of the most important which could.arise. His opinion was that the rights of the people should be zealously guarded in, connection with the national purse. The position had bsen made-worse by tho fact that the 'Prime Minister had sent, a confidential telegram. to the newspaper editors. He-.had ..intended to movo that a copy of that telegram be submitted to-members, but as its contents had been disclosedj it .was unnecessary for him now to do so. It was his opinion that the Prime Minister bad mado' a mistake in sending the telegram in question, and, further, in making.it "confidential; ,. No,telegram from the Prime Minister that was paid for out of the public expenditure ought to be- marked "confidential. - ■ ■ ■ '_ Sir Joseph: That is a very extraordinary doctrine. .. ■:■: . ■ . .-

_Mr. :Maeeey thought every member of the House would as?ee with him that if Parliament had been convened to discuss tho proposal to mako an offer to tho Home authori-. ties, there would have boen unanimity not only.:m Parliament, but throughout the country. -Since tho date of the offer, unfortunately,all. kinds of:opinion had been expressed. He need refer, only to what had occurred at Chri3tchurch." ' ' Subsldyor Ships? ; ' ' : :' . ■' If Parliament had been convened it might not have made the Dreadnought offer—it would have .made a better offer. .- Instead of making a spasmodic and ephemeral offer, tho proper thing to hays dpno was to have offered a fair and reasonable subsidy—a subsidy in proportion to that which should be, paid by the other countries forming the Empiroy He,hoped that" ono of the results.of the proposed conference wonld, be the formulation of a. system under which every part of the Empire would contribute its 'proper share of the cost of defence. Mr. Maskey_ went on to refer to the offer of a battleship- made some years ago by Cape Colony to the Motherland. Formerly he was of opinion that the Cape built a ship and handed it over .to the Imperial authorities. He found now- that when tie offer was niado Mr. Goschen'had suggested that the Cape should instead pay the interest on a ship by Tray of annual and permanent subsidy. ,'; ■ --. ' ... What ths Home Government Thought. Only the other day the suggestion had come from the Home Government that tho Federal Government could do bettor than offer,-, a ship. The: cablegram;on'.the subject etated that although no definite statement had ~yef"been""nia"do _ By 'thoTJome "Government it was understood that it held that tho interests of defence'would'be" best served not by providing- a ; Dreadnought, 'but , in some other way. .- ... : Sir .Joseph: Prior to that the Home au.thonfaes had accepted the offer of the Federal Government to donate. a Dreadnought Massey: But the Australian Government did not offer a' , Dreadnought in the earno way that New. Zealand did. Australia offored a Dreadnought or : assistance in some other form. ! ./■■,...-. ■

Sir Joseph: Any other.forin; ■.'■'.'■ Mr.v.Massey proceeded toieay that general opinion .was in favour of an annual subsidy for the purposes of defence;from every country in the Empire. He honestly believed that that was what would be "adopted; Aβ a layman ho could not'express any opinion on'the .effectiveness of vessels of the Dreadnought type. Members knew as well os he did that experts.disagreed on the point. It waa in his opinion, tho duty of the Imperial Government, to maintain what' had teen called the two-Power standard, with a margin over and it was the duty of the dependencies to assist, it to do so. ■ (Heaiy hear.) ■ • : :

Hew Zealand's Attitude at,the Ccriferenco.. ' 'Ho.fclt that tlie Prime' Minister ought to tell members the'lines which he-intended to follow at the conference. (Hear, hear.) He did not expect , Sir Joseph to go into'details but just to give an-idea of the lines he would follow. His object in expressing his views was to give him a load, as he bad done on other occasions. (Laughter.) Recently ho had read an interesting return showing the cost of and naval defence per head in some countries in the Empire. The cost m the United:, Kingdom (which was at the top of tho Jist) was £1 9s. 3d.: New Zealand, ss. 2^d.; Australia, ss. OJd.; Caps' Colony, ss. o}d.;. Canada, 4s. 6Jd.; Natal, 2a. ll}d.; Transvaal, 2s. Oid. Newfoundland 3Jd. It would be found tho averago was 4s. SJ-d. New Zealand, in his opinion, 1 was'as much interested in the deforico of the Empire as were tho people' who lived in England. : The people outside Great Britain.did not contribute a fair sharewhilst the people , in the United Kingdom .contributed too* much. ; Something would' have to bo done to see that the burden was more equally shared. A kindred subject almost as important was-that of local defence, and he'thought he could extend the question to.embrace.Australia, Canada, etc. New Zealand/was, he considered, doing less than any other country in the Empire in defence of .itself, -lu fact, it was doing praeticallv nothing. . '..-..■■ ■■'■~- ■ . ' . * FaUure of the* Voluntear System. The Government expended £200,000 every year on local defence, and frith.what result? His r anstter was: Practically nil. For double that amount a proper system on the national principle could bo obtained. The present system was,' in his opinion, worthless. It had .been his intention at first to move, an amendment to provide for the addition of the words: "And,'further, being dissatisfied with the existing system which it had been shown.. was inadequate for the defence of tho Dominion, considers that it should be. replaced by some system of national training."; .He ; now, thought it better not tohamper v the Dreadhprlght- motion, which should stand alone. The House qf Representatives.at any- would,, ho thought, carry that motion practically unanimously. ■ He. wanted, an opportunity to test tho opinion of the House on the question of national military training, arid he hoped that he, would got it during the present session. It would strengthen the hands of tho Prime Minister to be ablo to say &t tho Defence Conference that New Zealand was not .only willing to contribnto its fair sharo totvards maintenance of the Navy, but that by putting itself in a state of defence it was going to further the Home Country. Tho Defence-Council in 1907 had stated that should the volunteer force not bo brought up to an efficient state volunteering would havo had its last chance. It had further stated that if the people did not support tho system in the way that wrts necessary the alternative was a system of universal or conipnlsory training. What was tho position twelve months later? Tho council in, its next report referred to the groat difficulty in getting musters with respect both to.mounted squadrons and tho,infantry. From further remarks made in the renort :t was evident that the results did not justify "tho expenditure incurred. Further testimony as" to the inefficiency of;the local forces was to bo found in tho statements of tho exMinister for : . Defence (Mr. M'Nab) and thoso of Colonel Davies. ■ ■ ■ National System of Training Needed. There was only one course to follow, viz., the adoption of a system of universal or compulsory training, under which the burden of service would, he ■ said, be more evenly distributed, He. wished to make it oloai

that he was not advocating conscription. Hβ did not think there was a man in tho Houee who would contradict what ho was next about to say—that the.supply of arms and ammunition in this oouhtry was insufficient. (Hear, hear.) If New Zealand had sufficient she had not the men to handle them, lie did not know the number of trainod men in New Zealand, but it'was very small. It was well known that Now Zealand's .big guns wore practically obsolete, and, in consequence, the forts were absolutely useless. His object had been merely' to outline what was necessary. Ho would leave the question of details to Captain Fisher and the other experts on his side. (Laughter.) What was wanted was to see every young fellow, trained, so that if ever the time did come'be would be ablo to assist in the defence of the country. From another point of view, he thought that tho training would do the young people- good, for they would be benefited by a oertain amount of discipline. Otter countries in the British- Empire were moving in the matter. Among other nations bo would' jpint to Switzerland, which could place 250,000' men m *™'fi«ld—(Hear, hear)—and Japan, which could put one million in tho field. Lots of peoplo thonght that by , making the offer of a Dreadnought, New Zealand had done all thai-was required of it; .He might'say that New Zealand would not have done its dub? until it paid a fair share towards the upkeep of the British Navy, and put itself in a state of defence, so that it was impossible for any other country to attack it. Wolf and Lambs. The Attorney-General in the late Australian Government (Mr. Hughes) had stated that if that country were attacked tho people would turn out in a mob—tho moro that turned out' the better the enemy would like it. Mr. Massey thought that that remark could also be appliod to, New Zealand. ■ Without training, men wore not only inefficient, but a danger to their comrades. Lord Roberts had warned that danger was coming nearer every day.' - Hβ had said that untrained moh were useless no matter what their numbers. It would not trouble the wolf how many lambs thore were. Hβ (Mr. Massey) would caution the Prime Minister against placing unnecessary strain on New Zealand so far as patriotism was concerned. It was well known that the peoplo ot/New Zealand were willing to do their duty. Once lot it be suggested that- tho Imperial sentiment was being used for party purposes or.private interests, then from the view of those who wore really Imperialistic a. tremendous amount' of harm would be done. • ' • ' - ! •

Sir Joseph: It has never been done so far as I am concerned.

Mr. Massey, in conclusion, said.he would give way to no man m the matter of loyalty. iT ,, , Zealand w *s goiiß to do its duty it would have to cultivate those qualities with which the British people were specially imbued. He added: "What is the use of being willing if we aro not ready? If New Zealand does her duty, what other nations do in the wajr of warlike preparations will not affect Uβ in the slightest/' ■ (Loud applause.) MR. HERRIES ON METHOD DF OFFER. ■ Mr. HERRIES said .that as ho was not present at the informal meeting ho wished to place hisvriews on record. Dealing with Mr. .Hsher's complaint re '/he absence of dispatches, he said that the one from his Excellency the Governor to the Secretary of State for the Colonies (that in which the offer-wag conveyed) was missing. Sir Joseph: Oil, I understood -fche position now. ■ 3Dho dispatch in question would'be in . the terms of the Government's , ofEor. I shall ask :his Excellency to , allow it to bo published:**'.."-": ■ ■ ■ . ;;■:■:■ •..-..-.-."',-. Mr; Hemes then dealt with the mannoriu ; which tho .offer was made. Itwa3".-fcrue,:that tho Homo' Government had in bygoho days taken actioa""without first consulting Parliament, but that was in time of war, when it was necessary to* , act secretly. It was'a maxim of constitutional history that a Government could only act unconstitutionally in times of stress or great national omergency. Overriding the Constitution. He' urged that the national danger, as revealed by the published correspondenco, was not so groat as to justify the over-riding of the Oonstitntion.. The Primo -Minister had merely told them.what everyone knew-from the newspapers. . There, had been nothing to show that the offer could not have been mado just as well when. Parliament met. The offer would not be/availed of.by.'the British authorities until next year's estimates wero prepared. He hoped that the offer would be confirmed unanimously by the ..House, because when it was once made it would be ungenerons not to confirm it in that way. At the same time, if we wero to be lavish ■to that extent, the question arose where , was our.representation?,. A Little England Government might come in at Home, which' might._:'dismantle New. Zealand's Dread-' noughts,.: ;; ( and this Dominion; would not 'bo ■■• represented, and ' would" bo unable .. t0... make any protest." : ' 'He urged: t3ie necessity, of am Imperial Council of' Defence,' in which all the self-govern-ing colonies should be represented. The great value of the offer was in its moral eltect, but he believed that we could assist the Empire better by policing our own seas, lne expense of tho present Australasian squadron was £519,000 a year. Tho Commonwealth and New Zealand, together, should bo able to. find that amount. ' A moderate colonial navy should bo able to sweep tho -southern seas of any European warships.that would venure there,' and, perhaps, .to ..seize Noumea, Tahiti, and other foreign possessions in tho South Pacific The whole connection,of the colonies and the Mother .Country would have, sooner or later to bo. revised, and he.thought that this was an opportuno moment for such revision. Pawns In-the Game. In the past the colonies had always been used as pawns in'the game, and exchanged between rival Powers at the conclusion of war. It, should be provided that the defeat of portion of the Empire should not mean.the.sacrifice of another, as had often happened:in the.past. 'He hoped that the conference, -would establish a system ' under which tho _ colonics would be the allies and advisers_of the Old Country, with a voice n an Imperial ■ Council, that they would bo consulted in case of possible war, and it would be made impossible, as it was now he admitted improbable, that a colony" should ever be handed over to a foreigi to EngS W C ™ ° f B gteat d ' Sas^

APPROVAL OF -THE OFFER. % .'Mr. W. HRASER. (Wakatipu) held that the occasion of the Dreadnought offer was one of crisis>and. great peril. Ho would iiot, express any opinion on ihtf form taken by the otter, but ho approved the Underlying sentimenVthat Zealand was prem ed to give tho last shilling for the sake of the ttune. Minister was unconstitutional, but there were emergencies- when a Government must take. th\> responsibility for unusual acts. If the offor had.been delayed till Parliament met, its moral effect would have been lost and the moral effect had b«n great ihp action of Disraeli, in buying tho bucz Canal shares without' authority of Parlament, was parallel to the. action of the government.

, Mr WEED (Bay of Islands) expressed himself-intotal, agreement with the (Sovernment 3 action. Hβ was confident that New Zealand's Dreadnought, which would bo "o of tho finest ehips.afloat, would not, under any,circumstances, bo dismantled by a British Government. Ho hoped that the motwn would bo carried unanimously. He had not voted blindly on this question; he regarded it as. Necessary that Parliament snouia bo prorogued Mr. PHILLIPS CWajtemata) thoroughly endorsed, the aot on of tho Priao Minister Ho bel.eved that his prompt action had raised , a feeling of patriotism, and _ of preparedness to make a sacrifice- m other portions of the Emnire Ho thouEbt, the Prime Minister had failed in his duty in not giving a lead with regard to domestic defence. If ho did not nroposo a schomo for this purpose soon, his Government should givo way to one that would. . Tho _only way to provide securely for internal defenco was by means of compulsory training. Mr. NOSWORTHY (Ashburton) ■ foreshad-' owed tho day-when representatives of New Zealand in «n Imporio.l Counoil would vote tor elvnvj *,vt four millions, but porhaM

twenty millions, for tho defence of their hearths and homes. "We will bo asked to fight in tho near future tho great Teutonic race, and in alliance with them probably the Slavonic race, and perhaps the Latin race." We should ■ get into an alliance with the United States to resist these powers. Ho was in favour of increasing the naval subsidy to £600,000 if necessary. ONE THING AT A TIME. ; Mr.. J. C. THOMSON (Wallace) said that m facing the question consideration must be' given to tho funds available. He had calculated, that tho propoaa-ls of tho Leader of the Opposition would run tho country into closo on a million pounds a year. (No, no.) The Prime Minister had adopted the nght course in doing one thing at a time. The maintenance of the supremacy of tho Imperial Navy was the first thing to be considered.- If-he ■: had been consulted by telegram he would not have given a reply withoxn hearing.the matter discussed. Tochmoally, the act was unconstitutional, but if Parliament had.been called together the-dra-matic moment would have been lost. If the Leader of tho Opposition objected to the unconstitutional aspect of tho offer, ho should have moved a vote of no-confidence in tho Government. Ho supported.the proposal of an Imperial Conference. Before he supported a scheme of compulsory training, he would want to know at what age the training would bezin and cease.

Mr. SIDEY (Dunedin South) thought that boys should receivo instruction in military drill till a later agoHhsui waa the case at present, and if they wero compelled to join cadet corps, a step in advance would bo t»kon. Boys had too much time to themselves between the ages of fourteen and nineteen, and in those years the seeds of criminality were often, sown. He approved the Dreadnotight offer, and in regard to the general policy of naval defence he felt that tie contribution hitherto made was not an adequate one. At the same time ho did not think that New Zealand should bo expected to make the same contribution per capita as Great Britain. UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Mr. GUTHRIE (Oroua) said that if the Government were convinced when tho Dreadnought offer, was made that a crisis had arisen which demanded such action, he would not quarrel with what they had dono, I but no information .had been given which, he thought, :, would •' warrant that conviction., Hβ did not quariel with the gift?, but he was entirely dissatisfied with the unconstitutional manner in which it had been mado. .It was a most important principle that Parliament should hive control of the country's expenditure, and. tho Primo Minister know very well thak after he had made his offer Parliament could , not go back upon it. ■ MR. WRICHT'S VIEWS. Mr. WRIGHT denied that there was any comparison between the circumstances' of tho Dreadnought gift and of tho purchase of the Suoz Canal shares. If the shares .hod not boen purchased quickly they could not havo been, purchased at all for Great Britain, but nothing had been adduced to show that there was any urgency in tho matter of tho Dread-, nought offer. If tho Government had offered twenty. Dreadnoughts, what position would supporters of the Government hove takon? Ho considered that they would have said that it was a very serious matter, but as they had been sent to support, tho Government they had no'option but to do so. He was glad that the Government had agreed to take the responsibility in tho matter. It was wrong, however, for the Primo Minister,' to. say that the fate of tho Government was at stako. Tho party question had.been param<mnt all along; the ;linp.i; Ho thought that the wholo arrangement had boen^in-the interest of tho Goyemmont>party.. He .regretted tho way in which the offer had been made, for tho Government had ; handed over tho people's money without Consulting ' their representatives, which was, in-his opinion, a dangerous thing. ,If this .Government or any other Government were to bo allowed to vote away millions of money without calling. Parliament/ together, they were on very dangerous ground. . • ■ .'-'■■' ' WORDS.OF APPROVAL. ' Mr. JENNINGS (Taumarunhi) strongly approved the Dreadnought offer. As an exvolunteer ofiicer, he was opposed to compulsory'.military training, though ho thought that some' improvement of the. present Bystom could bo effected. .■ '.

The Hon.- A.-..T. NGATA . thought that there could, be no question as to the timelineas of the offer. There;was no doubt, also, 1 of its magnitude and moral effeot. They might quibble about tho constitutional position, but the British Empire had been fortunate in haying in the' past men strong enough, with enough foresight, arid with onougb. faith in the people, to rise above party and above.official red tape, and New Zealand:; was .fortunate in haying .a Prime •Minister who'oould■ rise, above those ' considerations, and, trust to Parliament to ratify'the.inagnincent offor he had made. j SPEECH BY MR. JAS. ALLEN. Mr. Jaß. ,AT»TiEN (Bruco) considered that, the tone of tho debate had been high. All the members had shown sympathy with tho desire to help the Motherland. It was his opinion that the speech of Mr. Hemes was the speech of a statesman. The only argument ; in favour of breaking the constitutional rules was that a crisis existed. Mr. Ngata had. just stated that thero was no crisis. Parliament wae tho right party to havo control of tho money of the people, '.fhero was plenty of time to have called Parliament together. The offer which prodncod a groat moral effect was made at an ■opportune tine. If tho offer had.beon made by Parliament,-, instead of by tho Government, the effect -would have been 10,000 times greater. The object of Germany, in building a largo fleet, was not so much to make a descent on the shores of Great Britain but to put her in tho position of dictator in connection with the world's politics.- It was ridiculons to say that Germany ' had' not outlying countries to protect. Tho .n'ost important question, which New Zealand had to deciao was what was to be-her destiny She was forgetting what responsibilities she had in the Pacific Ocean. The Japanese wore right when they said that the British thought too much of their rights, and too little of their duties. What New Zealand! was- doing was not facing the position in the proper way. The. colonies could not always rely on Groat Britain. New Zealand Must Have Ideals. • ■ If the colonies were to become groat, they would have to have a Wleet to meet oven the, Japanese. A-Member: What about the Americans? Mr, AUen said that Admiral Sperry bad recently. Stated that the United States would never bo safe until her fleet was stronger , -than the British Fleet If e tl b to give subsidies to tho British Navy they must have repreEentation—a voice- in how the money should be spent. There was something in tho pro. posal that the coonies.should . rclioro the Mother Country of 'her liability in connection with tho Australian Navy. New Zealand should nx>t be jn the position of a dependency, but that of an ally-an honourable ally— oTßnton. Tho fame would como when the bulk of New Zealandcrs would hold tho opinion to which no had given expression. Tho Imperial officers in charge of tho Australian bqtiadnra wero givmg no sympathy to Now Zealand w its desire to protect ite shores. •j j , Zea , land had-its own ships, commanded by her own nion, she- would got tile assistance needed.. Tho attitude that had been taken up by tfie naval authorities had madei him more of a Now ZeaJander than over bo was before. He wished to remove tho otToneons impression that tbo forte at the Chief ports wero to prevent tho landinrr o f invading troops. As a matter of fact tho harbour defences wero to keep tho harbours opon for tI.M. ships who wished to refit ftnd to tiro mercantile mariuo when they were chased by tho enomy. ■ Dofcnco Sohsmo promised. He would bo gjad if ho got an opportunity this session to give tilic details of his schomo of nawotul training, together with its cost One member had said that such a system would cost one million sterling. It was his opinion that that sum wonld provndo tho cost of maintaining a squadron which would be to protect both Australia and New Ztialand, and'tSie cost of the internal defeace of pot* eawiieuia. 2bs £400,000 jes

anainm New Zealand could got a thoroughly efficient internal system of defence, under which, at fcho end of 15 years, die would produce 82,000 men fully equipped for her defence. Our share in tho cost of an Australian and Now Zealand squadron, if we had one, could not nossibly be more than £200,000 o. year. The situation in New Zealand now was not satisfactory; wo had been advised by the last Imperial Conference what steps to take; and wo had not followed tho advico. He hoped the coming conference would force us to realise out responsibility for the defence of our trade routes and our coasts, and lead to.an efficiency which did not exist at present. Ho regretted that, the Wellington dock, when it wa« completed, would not take a vessel larger than thojo of the Invincible gass. Thoro was no dock in the Southern Hemisphere, except perhaps at Smonstowh, whioh would, take a Dreadnought. THE MEMBER FOR MA.NUKAU. Mr. LANG (Manukau) said that if h> were necessary ho would favour N«w Zealand giving half a' dozen Dreadnonghts to tho British Navy. The manner in which the gift had been made, however, created a very bad precedent. It was his opinion that Parliament should have been called together before tho offer was made. On a previous occasion, when a loan was advanced, to tlie Bank of New Zealand, Parliament passed the necessary measure in-one day. WHAT MR. FISHER THINKS. Mr. FISHER (Wellington Central) said he believed it- to bo the general opinion that at the tiino of the o.ffor the Primo Mmistor was in possession of information which was not available to anyone else. There had been a violation of a great principle, and if it. passed without comment it would further evidence that the House was gradually relinquishing its rights and privileges, and was becoming a mero tool in'the- hands of whoevor might be at tho head of tie Government in office. If Parliament had been consulted it would unanimously have voted another £100,000 to the subsidy. He was not one of a few who it was stated wished to have a division taken on the sublet. In September last, when.financial conditions , woro better! than they. were nowj the Primo Minister had stated that tho Dominion could not afford to build ships for coastal defence—that it would bo madness to do such a thing. Tho timo might come, if no objection were raised, that a" Prime Mmistor might commit New Zealand to expenditure which ought not to bo ratiQod. . - - ' Mr. Russell: Parliament need not ratify it in that event. One Speoffic Thing. Mr. Fisher thought it would be degrading if the Legislature did not ratify expenditure to which they had been committed by the Prime Minister. The Imperial authorities had at previous conferences urged on Australia and Now Zealand one specific thing which had never yet been yielded to them. What Britain had said was this: "If you want to assist the Empire in a practical way' ono of tho things you con do to help us is to train within your borders a force of men who would be available for service in auy part." Tho Home authorities would prefer a permanent contribution to, the Navy instead of spasmodic offers of Dreadnoughts, etc. No other similar offer should be made at a timo when a vota of censure was being moved in the Imperial Parliament.: Hβ hoped that the Prime Minister would assist to bring about a tangible result which would be a permanent good to the Empire. OUTSPOKEN REMARKS BY MR. HERD- ' ~ :' MAW. Mr. HERDMAN (Wellington ''North) remarked jfhat-mombors of the Opposition wore just as.'interesbed in'the welfare of-the Empire as the - Prime Minister and his' followers. He was prepared to accept the assurance of tho Prime Minister that he was in possession a, confidential information when tho offer was mado. At tW same time one could not help remembering that ■Mμ obligations which tho offer would entail would be heavy'. Within the past year tho publio debt had been increased from ■£.66,400;0d0'-to'pioso-on £70,000,000., The offer entailed a further debt of, say,' four He"would, noyor, complain of any burden" provided that'it wns necessary in the interests of the nation. This was not tho. first : ti-mo that the rights of the peoplo had been-interfered with. Ho quoted two instances where the Government had refused to take action when they were aware that breaches of the arbitration law had been committed. '•■ ■ .

A Member: Whore? Mr. Herdman: On"the West Coast. Tlio Member: No. , ■'..,. Mr. Herdmau: The law was not only broken but the Crown refused to take action. Another Member: There are no laws there. ' Mr. Herdman: Hey are a law unto th.om6elvcs. . ■ ' ' '; ''■'■' Resuming) Mr. Hordmaa said tliat if tie Prime Minister had cabled the Homo authorities to the effect that he felt assured Now Zealand would authorise any reasonable assistance, and asking for a suggestion as to tho form it should take—if'that had been done no momber would have raised , any objection. . ■ K Sir Joseph: Ton would have asked why I had,not shown courage and acted, -. < Mr. Herdm*n declared that he.agreed with tho Prime Minister's sentiment, but it was tho duty of members to enter ' a protest against any irregular action. He went on to say tna-t tho Prime Minister should give members an idea of the line ho intended to follow at she conference. . . To End.a Tiianlc Struggle. -What had tho : future in -store ? Was New i^ l lL gome to g0 on P a y in S a subsidy of £100,000 por annum with the occasional gift of a Dreadnought. Were the colonics to secure a navy of their own?- Sir Joseph sttoulcl give them some information as to his views with regard* to the futiiro navaldefonco of New Zealand and of the Australian colonies. Then again, what was to be the sequel to tho-gigantic competition in arniamonts between Britain and Germany? A Member; Bankruptcy and ruin. Mr. Herdman said ho detested war, but he asked '-whether it would not have been better in tho interests of civilisation and tho peace of the world if Great Britain had ■•refused to allow Germany to build more Dreadnoughts, had told her that she, Britain, should be the dominant Power, and if Germany, continued with.Jier programme to treat her action as a hostile act and declare war? Would it not bo better if Britain now adopted that attitude, and, if Germany disagreed, to crush her? ' (Hear, hear.) He supposed that thcro was not a statesman who was- bold enough to make such a proposal, and ho did not say that Sir Joseph should - suggest it , at tho Dotenco Conference, but the point was worth considering. Mr. Herdman went on to say that ho had no fears for.the future: ho:did not believe that Groat Britain had reached the highest point of her civilisation or that any period of decay had set in. Great Britain' was, in his opinion, as strong as ever she was in her history, and ho bad great faith in the comnionsensQ of her people, and even, greater faith in tho peoplo in her .dependencies. MR. WILFORD SPEAKS BRIEFLY. Mr! -WILFOlil) (Hutt) said that in 1901, during tho course of the South African Wnr, an altegcd breach of; constitutional law took place. Sir W. Harcourt, in the courso of tho debate, gave one of the greatest expositions on constitutional law that had ever beon known. In reply, Mr. Jesoph Chamberlain had said: Perhaps unconstitutional but the right thing to do." . Next day tho London Times' had declared that Sir W. Hnrcpnrt'a exposition was a Eroat treat t'o listen to, but Mr. Chamberlain was a statesman. • . ■ ■ -. . MR. HIKE ON THE OFFER. Mr. HINE (Stratford) considered that New Zealand should offer a Dreadnought to tho British Navy. It was not necessary (as one raomber had suggested) that two lnilliona of Nativo lands should j bo opened up to moot tho oofit. Thcro wns, in his opinion plontv of Crown Innds which could bo sold —and sold for cash. Thcro wns a sad lack of iutproet in rolunteerinc in tho Dominion. When ho had been on his way to parades, etc., he had been sneered at by men at street corners. "Those.wero the men," ho added, "who should bo brought under the discipline of training. WHAT NEW ZEALAND COULD AFFORD. Mr. J. DUNCAN (Wairau) thought that £=w Zealand could afford to present a Dread-

nought to tho British Navy every two years. His opinion was that New Zealand's contribution to the Navy should bo £350,000 'pel annum. Ho strongly supported tho motion. MR. M'LAREN DEPRECATES HASTE, Mr. M'LAREN said he was sorry that on the question in dobate he could not see eyo to eye with many of the members. Much of the discussion scorned to him to be urinecessary. Ho thought that such hasty action as had been taken might ombarrarai tho Home authorities very much, and h< therefore regretted, tho manner , ia whicl tho offer had been made. He had failed t< rocogniso that there was a sfcato of imminent lieril calling for unconstitutional action. Th< fact that the Germans were building shipi nt a.fast rate was a matter for tho Homi Government to face. Spasmodic acts of duti or generosity were not in the best interest! of tho Empire. Ho thought that what waiwantcd was a confederation of free States, and not an Empire of dependencies taking their trend from one.centra! authority. Ho believed that it would have been wiser if th< Government's action had never been taken, PRIME MINISTER IN REPLY. Tho PBLME MINISTER said it was easy for some members to say that in tho event of imminent danger something ought to be done, but. those were just tie people who would wait until the danger was past before they acted. The Wellington . members had mado fourteen speeches on. this subject, mostly roitorating tho same arguments, and ho wanted to know what sort of fair oon» Bideration that was to. tho man who. was going to represent them at the conference.' Did thoy think that he could walk out of the .House at the last moment, pick Up hie >wrpet baR, and' board the steamer without further trouble? Tho Government had iiot ncted unconstitutionally. Section 54 of the Constitution Act sot out the rcsponsibilitiefl of tho Government, and those- rosponsibilities had been recogniEed. They had not yot authorised a payment of any kind in cmncction with their proposals. (A member: You could not do it without a vote of Parliament.) Ho complimented the members on tho way in which they had voiced thoir. approval of what had been done in the interests of the Empire. The niombor for Wakatipu. who was one of tho oldest members of the House, had used words which oujht to make even Mr. Fisher think. ■ ... ■ : ■ ■ .. / Need far Ratification. ' '. Iu his official memorandum ho referred to thu necessity for the offer being confirmed by Parliament.. Ho stated that if Parliament did not ratify the deed, tho Government would be put out of office. This was not putting the matter on h party basis, for the only peoplo who could put the Government out of office were the members of its own party. He had done riotliing to incise party feeling, and ho had suggested to no one how ho should vote.' When Mr. Balfour. used tho offer as an argument for the establishment of preferential trade-, he cabled that tho offer was mado quite independently of any views held in this country-on that question. .With regard to the constitutional aspect, ho quoted Anson on the . Law of tho Constitution as to the' power of tho Executive. All tho fastidious examination, into what was termed the unconstitutional action of tho Government was frustrated by tho statement in his memorandum to the Governor that the offer would to bo: ratified by Parliament. It was a grand thing tha± the country was abovo party consid6nw tiona iu such a matter, and that lie had re» coivod congratulations from Opposition sup. porters on. his action.; ' Theory of Looal Navies. As to tho desirability of a multiple systca of navies advocated-by somo mombcrs (Me. Allon: Parts of tho same Navy), some,members who were airinc; their views on this, subject showed a recklessness "as to expense that was to him amazing. It cost £236,000 a year to keep one battleship. It would be tho death-knell of this country' to attempt to maintain a fleet that would bo capable of carrying on tho operations that had been suggested. Tho ' future.safety. .of this' oountry, for a long time, to come, iVould dopehd on the' British Navy, and auy 1 fleet that could be formed hero would bo "tiddledy-winking." The i proposal that had been 'mad« for a , local .fleet might bis'all right a hundred - years' hence; ■ The British Navy must be strengthened if the safutj of tho dominions was to bo safeguarded, and yet some members talked about n local navy. The future of'this country would be as different from that of ;Australia as daylight from dark. If wo wore only to havo i scratching match with ■ a foreign foe, wo ■should want half-a-dozen' crursers at'least. It was a case of either incurring ah expends ture that' would crush the life out of this country to provide a local navy, or of assisting the British Navy, for whioh wo had done comparatively Jittle in the . past. The method of financing the Dreadnought gift had nothing to do with tho issue. . Defence Legislation Foreshadowed.. The Government intended to submit legtslatioli next session on the whole defence system of the Dominion. There was only one power in this' country that coald submit an effective defence scheme with any hopo of it being put.on tho . Statute Book, and that was the Government. Mr. Massey: And they won't move. _ The Prime Minister: Tliiy havo been mo*, mg too_ fast for you all along. They wore' not going, to bo led away' in this matter by any. generalisations. Tho Government woro going through with this matter. Mr. Allen: That wasn't tho caso ■ with the Land Bill. . . ' .;.;. . T H ° the hon - member iij get that Land Bill off,his chest, or iv would stay m $ him, till'tho Day of Judgment. Mr. Allen: There's another coming behind To Represent AH Parties. Continuing, the Prime Minister said that when he went Home ho would gain from tho authorities in llie Old Country the inforniatorn that ',vas necessary on defence questions. Ho would go there to reaffirm with, absolute; sincerity their, decision that s, dreadnought, or two if necessary, should bo placed at. the service of the British Government. Unless the conference should think otherwise; that appeared to him to be tho to? j. n ™°™ tlieir ""''stance could talco. Whatever was done at tho conference would require to bo ratified as far as possible and whatever was done thore,'So far as ho could repeat it to that House, ho would repeat in ordor that tho members of the House should bo m as good a position as himsolf to judge of theso affairs. Thoy had to recognise that there wore some matters which could not be made public. Ho would go to the/confer. ohco fully impressed with tho enormous reI sponsibihties resting on his shoulders, and as the representative of all parties, and.ho' would not be uiado use of by any party in tho'Old Country. If a nation which waa at present strengthening its resources ever tried conclusions with Great Britain, the fato and future of. this country would not depend on whether the' wholo of our internal defences woro on a strong basis—end no ono was more anxious than himsolf that thoy should bo on a. strong basis—or on 80 000 or 100,000, or 200,000 men .fully nrmodin New Zealand, but on the British\Navy, wherever the decisive conflict took place. The motion approving of the Dreadnought offer was then adopted unanimously. As it was now supper'time, Mr' Massey asked if it was necessary for- tho Houso to continue after tho adjournment. Tho'Prime. Minister'said he would like to introduce and explain his Loan and Publio llevonues Bill, so that,it might be in tho hands of mombere for' discussion in tho morning. • . . MR. MASSEY AMD POMPULBORY TRAININC. Mr. MASSEY said that ho had treated the Primo Minister with consideration, uml ho .cxplcted somo consideration to bo extended to him. Ho desired to move the amendment of which he had given notice. ' Tho Prime Minister; What amendment ii ■that? Mr. Mnssey: ' In support of compulsory training. . ' . As. the Primo .Minister .appeared likoly ta doriiur, Mr. Massey added: ''I'll move it now without saving a word in support of it, and let it go to a division straight awav ■' • ' Tho Primo Minister: I don't tniiilt that : would bo a. -proper thing to do. ,Ho ndded - that ho would not like to voto for n proftnjal unless ho knew what it entailed.

Maasey: It ; merely afErms apiinciplo. Tho Primo Minister: If it were to cost a million pounds it. would bo a pretty heavy principle. ■ ■ Tho Buppor adjournment then took place. • Tho Primo Minister, after tho supper adjournment, was granted leave to move without ratio©— ■ : , i "That a message bo transmitted to tho i 1 : Legislative Council conveying tho resolution, regarding the . offer of tho Dreod.nought to tho Imperial authorities, and ' requests tho Council's concurronco therein.l' : ■ Mr. Massoy, said ;ho would raiso no objection, hut lie t"ho generosity would not all bo on tho ono. sido.. . ; ; Sir Joseph; I have made a point never to interfere with tho Logislativo Council. ■ ?Mr.', MasseyThat is: not thei point. ■' • The motion was thon agreed to: !