SECOND BALLOT BILL.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 294, 5 September 1908, Page 7

SECOND BALLOT BILL.

DEBATE IN COMMITTEE. At 4.30 p.m. the Houso went into Committee on tho Second Ballot Bill. Mr. MASSEY pointed out that tho short title was not at all consistent with tho provisions of the Bill: He said it was quite possible to havo three or oven four ballots. In other countries thero had been; cases in which thero had been a third second ballot. (Laughter.) Besides, aftw the first ballot thero'could bo bargaining betweon tho candidates that might be inimical to tho State. One man, for instance, might say: "Look hero, old chap, if you agreo to put mo in the Uppor House, I'll get my men to voto for you." Tho Bill was a retrograde step. . ... Sir JOSEPH WAED denied that it was possible to havo more than one second ballot. Even in disputed olcctions tho court would decide that tho whole election was void, and tho whole of tho candidates would again con- ; test tho election do novo. In addition to thoso who voted for tho Bill the other day there wero at least two others who could not voto who were favourablo to tho Bill. Mr. Massey: A good many voted for it who wero not in favour of it. Sir Joseph Ward: "Well, I don't know who they were." Ho went on to say that he did not believe in tho system as in operation in Belgium,-but he maintained that the second ballot was a success in Germany. Mr. TANNER said ho felt sure this measure would produce some very unexpected results. Ho was oortain that it was simply an invitation to a numbor of minorities to combine against, tho who headed tho poll. Mr. HERRIES pointed out that under Clause 16 thero could bo a third second ballot. Tho clause provides that a substituted second ballot is to bo taken, where tho origi- ' nal second ballot is not taken between proper candidates. . Mr. MASSEY said ho know for a fact that many of the Government. supporters wero very half-hearted about the Bill. Some of thom had told him so; but ho would not mention names, as he did not wish to give away confidences. Mr. Tanner: Many of them are hostile. Mi*. Massey: That is so. They havo told me they voted for it because it was a Government proposal, and they could not vory well go against it.

Mr. JAS. ALLEN said tho Bill did not improve things, and it did not do what tho Promier wanted, viz.,'tho securing of majority representation. At the second ballot they would often not get so many voters as at tho first. Sections of tho community (favouring a certain few) defeated at the first ballot and smarting under defeat might mako terms with a certain candidate altogether opposed to their main political views. Dr. CHAPPLE sought to show how injustice might come to a third man under tho second ballot. He instanced, Winston's Churchill's last election. Ho polled 7000 votes, the next man got 4079, the third man 4000, and a fourth 655. Now under, a second ballot that third man, would suffer gravo injustice, because if tho absolute majority principle wero in force ho might havo been put into the second place by the 655 votes given to the fourth man. Dr. Chappie wont on to show how graTO injustices would bo dono hot only to tho country candidates, but also to tho country electors. It would bo a great disability to tho latter. (Hear, hear.) "What was going on?" At tho evening sitting speechos wero mado bv Messrs. Tanner, Lang, Thomson, and Massoy. Tho PRIME MINISTER, referring to Mr. Thomson, said tho hon. member should not holp to play tlm gamo of thoso who wore trying to block tho Bill. They ajl knew what was going on. "I propose to stick to tho Bill," said tho Premier, "until it is put cn tho Statute Book." Mr. HOGG, speaking as a supporter of tho Bill, said ho was quito prepared for a trial of strength. Mr. J. ALLEN offered an explanation of what was going on. "A great many Government members," ho said, "aro not in favour of tho Bill, though thov voted for tho second goading. ]We know it.

The Premier: "I don't know it." Mr. Allen: "Wo do. After they have heard further argument those members may vote as they believe, 'l'hcy may como to their • ordinary senses, and not bo afraid to vote as they think right. That is why there has been a little delay over tho short title." Mr. TANNER said that just after tho division on tho secoud reading a member who had voted for the Bill said in his hearing, "Well, the second reading is through, but lot lis hope it will bo killed in committee." Mr. Tanner continued: "I think I am not transgrossing tho bounds of Parliamentary docorum by upbraiding tho great majority of (lho members who havo supported this Bill, while in their hearts they entirely disapprove of it." Mr. REMINGTON, as a supporter of the Bill, declared his intention of sitting still and waiting for tho division. Mr. MASSEY declared that no concerted action was going on. ' Clause 14, "short title," was passed by 3D to 14 at 8.30 p.m. Contingent Voting Pius Second Ballot. Dr. CHAPPLE moved to add to clauso 2 a series of sub-clauses, providing for preferential voting, and for the. taking of a second ballot iu cases whero no candidate obtained an absolute majority on tho original or contingent votes. On a point of order raised by tho Premier The CHAIRMAN (Mr. R. M'Kenzie) ruled that the amendment could not bo admitted, 011 tho ground that it conflicted with tho purpose of tho Bill.

Speaker Called In. f ' Mr. MASSEY thereupon moved to report progress to obtain the Speaker s ruling. The PRIME MINISTER supported the motion to obtain tho Speaker s ruling. On the Speaker taking the chair a lengthy debato took place, which tho Speaker allowed, as, said he, the point was an imP °Th a o nt SPEAKER uphold tho ruling of tho Chairman of Committees. Ho said the prmciple of holding a second ballot had been confirmed by. tho Houso in tho second readme of the Bill, and the amendment might chango it into quito a different measure. If it was desired to change the Bill a way to do it would bo to wipe out procedure clauses dealing with tho second Ballot, and substitute the clauses contained m Dr. Ghapplo s amendment. , ~ _ ~ Tho Prime Minister (to tho Opposition). I wish you joy in your endeavour! .Mr. Massey smiled. A Drastic Amondmcnt. The PRIME MINISTER then moved an amendment to sub-clauso 2 of clause 2 to add a proviso to tho effect that where at the first ballot tho first candidate had polled 500 votes mora than the second candidate ho should bo deemed to have obtained an absolute majority, even though he should not havo done so mathematically. Mr. Massey said that this was tho suggestion of Mr. J. Allen. .. ~ The Prime Minister, with a quiet smile, said it was tho arguments of the member for Bruce that had convinced him. Since that was so he hoped now tho Opposition would S TI P r° rt MASSEY said that the amendment was an improvement* and ho would support it Later no" said he approvod tho principle of tho amendment. Where, he proceeded, was tho absolute majority now ? Tho. amondmcnt quito destroyed .tho prmciplo of tho Bill. But all that thoy ought to get at an election would, be a satisfactory expression of opinion from tho public, and if a cortain majority were obtained that would be onough. Ho was ploased to hear tho Primo Minister acknowledge that the argument used by the member for Bruco had convinced him. ■ Sweet Reasonableness. Mr. TANNER: "I am charmed with tlio sweat reasonableness of the Premier. (Laughter.) Had ho been like some of his followers—who would allow their brains to go to sloop and lock up their fino mental processes—tho Houso might havo sat oil this matter tiU midnight. (Laughter.) He was pleasod with the receptivity of tho Premier's mind. (Laughtor.) M I hope, howover, that tho young generation will find somo wiser representatives in tho Houso than there are at present. I congratulate tho Loader of tho House on being a leader indeed, and on the wisdom ho discloses. suggested that if .tho candidate at tho head of tho poll secured 250 moro votes .than the next ho should bo deemed to havo secured an ' absolute majority, and be olected accordingly. The PRIME MINISTER said that after oxamining a large number of election returns ho concluded that under his proposal it would bo a ton to ono ohanco that f the olccted candidate would havo secured a truo absolute majority, but if 250 wore substituted for 500. tho position would bo very doubtful. ■ Mr. J. ALLEN askod_wkether tho amendment was in order. lie, submitted, that it was contrary to tho. principle of the Bill, inasmuch as*it abolished tho second ballot, Tho PRIME MINISTER said tho amendment did not affect tho principlo of tho Tho CHAIRMAN: I rulo that tho amendment is perfoctly in order.. It docs not in any way invalidate tho purposo of the Bill. Mr. J. ALLEN said that under tho amondmcnt sovon out of tho fifteen members who were returned at the last olcction without having obtained'an absolute majority would, havo boon olected. Amongst tho others was a member who polled 470 more than th next candidate, but only required 167 moro votes to give him an absolute majority. The electorate was a very largo and scattered ono. This would havo beon a hard caso. Among others was ono who wanted only 28 votes to give him a majority of those who polled, but polled only 283 more than tho next mail. \Vas that not a hard case?

Mr. Gray: You're a -hard casol (Laughter.) Mr. BAUME supported tho Premier's amendment, which, lie said, would weed out many undesirable candidates, who would otherwise stand though they knew that their chances of heading tho poll were not vory good. Five Hundred Majority Adopted. Mr. Massoy's amondmout to substitute 250 votes for 500 was defeated by 36 to 13, and the Premier's amendment was then adopted. At Clause 3, Opposition members contended that it might in some cases be impossible to decide as to the necessity of a second ballot until it was too late to arrango for holding it on tho sovonth or fourteenth day after the first ballot. Tho clause was carried by 40 votes to. 12, but the point was again briefly discussed on ClaußO 5. ' ■ Clause. 9—"lt shall not bo lawful for any candidate'at tho second ballot to withdraw from the eloction"—was objected to, and tho House divided. Tho clause was carried by 36 to 12. „ . , Clauses 10 to 14 wero passed without dis- ' clauses being passed without material amendment, Mr. Massey and Mr. J. Allen at Clause 20 objected to the Bill differentiating between European and Maori electorates. Tho clauso was passed by 32 to 12. Clause 21 (tho last) also passed unaltered. Important Now Clauses. A new clauso was adopted, on the motion of tho Premier, making it unlawful during tho interval between the first and second ballots for a candidato at tho second ballot, or anyone acting for him, to courcrio or addross a meeting or to print or pubhsh anything calculated to influence tho voting, such prohibition to apply pending tho official declaration of tho result of tho first poll. A lino not exceeding £200 was provided for committing or instigating a breach of these now clauso, providing that tho total oxponsos of any candidate at tho second ballot shall "not exceed £50, was adopted, on tho motion of the Premier. The Motneka electorate was added to thoso in whicli a second ballot, if required, is to bo hold on the fourteenth day after tho first P °Thc Bill was reported as amended.

LOCAL BILL. Tho Waikohu County Bill was received from tho Council and read a first time. The Houbo rose at 12 45 a.m.