PARLIAMENT.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 282, 22 August 1908, Page 7

PARLIAMENT.

ESTIMATES DISCUSSED. , PRINTING THE ELECTORAL ROLLS THE HIGH COMMISSIONER'S OFFICE. ARE .THE POLICE UNDERPAID?' In tho Legislative. Council yesterday tho debate on the troubles of tho married worker was resumed and again adjourned. Tho Coroners Amendment Bill-passed its second reading, and tho Bill to legalise expenditure by local bodies in connection with the visit of the American Fleet was put rapidly through all its stages. Discussion on the justice and Police Department Estimates occupied the Houso in tho afternoon. Tho classes were passed without alteration, though somo warm protests were mado .regarding thb alleged inadequate salaries paid to police constables. In the evening other- classes in the Estimates, were adopted. ■ Two hours were spent over the electoral appropriations. THE COUNCIL. FIRST READINGS. The Legislative Council met yesterday at 2.30 p.m.- .»- '< ■ ' ..... The Town Boards Bill, Westport Harbour Board Loan Bill, Christchurch City Betterment 'Bill, and- Oamaru Reserves Bill were received from the Lower House and read a first time. THE CASE OF MR. "MOKAU" JONES. The Eton.""W. fW. : M'GABDLE moved: — "That,, in view ,of the facts—(a) that Mr. Justice ;Parker, " iii England, intimated that in nis opinion,.the High Court of Justice in England had y no jurisdiction to -entertain a suit .for tho redempton'of the Mokau leaseholds, the property of Mr.' Joshua Jones; (b) that the Supreme Court of New Zealand has expressed a, contrary opinion, refusing leave to ■ appeal'; and (c) of the grave injustice suffered by Mr. Jones in'that connection— the. Gbvcrnment should introduce legislation to give ; 'Mr. Jones relief.";- The mover said that the case was ono for inquiry, as Mr. J. Jones; after having a special Bill passed, had been deprived of his rights by means which many people thought wero unfair. The Hon. J. KIGG (Wellington) seconded tho motion. • The- ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. Dr. Findlay).. said, it was open to Mr. Jones to potition /Parliament in the usual way, and the. case would then be fully examined. Ho felt, however, that it was a most undesirable thing'for Parliament to step ,in to restore rights, which had been declared by the highest Court hi. the land to be lost._ Defeated litigants generally had some .justico on their, side,, and if .Parliament wero always to listen to them and take up their causes, it could do. nothing else. If.tho motion wero passed-he would lay it'before. Cabinet, but personally ho was opposed to any interference. 1 The story of the Mokau. leases was a veryi.long one, and if it were, fully told, it would probably be seeii that liis claims wero not. so perfect as Mr. M'Cardle appeared to think. : '. - ■ : The Hon. G. JONES (Otago) supported the motion. The Appeal Court was not immaculate; and its' decision had been severely criticised .bjr Sir -Robert Stout in connection . with the Ponrna case. i. ...' .7. L>.' The Hon.: G.' LpUlSSON. ; (Canterbury) opposed" the ' motion. - ■ Parjiaiiior.t coulcL. not, with any justico, step in arid take away from the other, .parties tho rights and. properties conferred upon them-by the-Courts. It was the of Parliament, to make laws, not to administer-them'.

The Hon. J. R. SINCLAIR (Otago) said it was not reasonablo ■ to ask members to pass suoh a . resolution,. when they had absolutely.;.'no, ground for forming such an opinion '.'as was expressed in the motion. The Hon. W/. -BEEIIAN. (Auckland) asked Miv M'Cardle:to withdraw his motion, with a view!'to;;the adoption of the AttoraeyGeneral's "suggestion. The Hon. J. CALLAN (Otago) insisted that a petition to Parliament. as suggested by Dr. Findlay, would cause the whole matter to 'be investigated;- - ThcpHon. R. A. LOUGHNAN, (Wellington)' opposed the motion. '' ' •' The''Hon. J. RIGG (Wellington) said nobody who had heard the story which lie had heard from Mr. Joshua Jones could help feeling that a serious injustice had 'been done, although the (methods .used were admitted by Mr; Jones 'to be' perfectly legal. Anyono who had failed to get justice from the Courts had a, right to appeal to Parliament by any methpd he chose. Mr. M'Cardle accepted the suggestion of the Attorney-General in regard to petitioning Parliament, and withdrew his motion. WAGES. AND THE CRADLE.

The Hon. W. W. M'CARDLE (Auckland) continued 'his speech on Mr. Barr's "motion calling on tho Government to devise further measures for assisting married workers, and especially those with families. .Mr. M'Cardle insisted on the need of a pure'milk supply, which,- he said, could only : be'- : -'secured by applying the cream test. He repudiated the suggestion that tho farmers wore getting more than' their share.of .the .national wealth. The railway concessions to settlers were not unfair, because, but for the settlers, the railways could not exist, and the railways also greatly increased the trade of the cities. He also deprecated the" talk of unearned -increment in conncction with the land, of thosettlers, and contended that the Government should not take land for workers' homes near ;tho-, cities. at tho official valuation, as advocated:by Mr. Barr. The : Hpn. C.-M. LUKE (Wellington), while expressing sympathy .with-the object of tho resolution, said ho could not see how it was - possible in those . competitive days to differentiate. between the wages of married and single .men, and ,at tho. samo.timo t6carry on business, on-.profitablo lines. '•

The Effect of Competition. . Hon. J. ANSTEY (Canterbury) said the Labour leaders- generally concentrated attention on ' raising wages, and ignored the very important issues raised by this motion.' Increases of wages had made the cost of living higher, and this 'was most severely felt by men with families. Thus tho worker with many dependents- got /no benefit from the rise in wages. It would be impossible to induce' private employers to give preference of employment to married men,-because tho stress of competition would not allow them- to do ,other than engage Hie .men from whom they would get tho best value for money., The State, however, might extend'the system of preference to married men, in the Civil Service, and also e ! settlement ballots. * The now preference clauses in connection with these jallots had,) however, been very unsatisfactorily administered so far, and had not benefited married men appreciably. Ho hoped the : opportunity would bo better employed m the futuro Ho could, not understand Mr. M'Cardlc's suggestion that large families should be encouraged by moans of bank-notes. (Laughter.) Ho did not Bee how the currency affected the question. Help for Those' Who Help Themselves. The administration of the Workers' Dwellings Act' had ■ been too ambitious. Less pretentious' dwellings should have been erected, but ho thought much better results could \bo secured through the Advances to Workers. He advocated a national system of accident insurance, under which workers would bo insured for the whole'twenty-four hours, instead, of only tho working day. Ho agreed with 'Mr. Harr's plea for " mother nurses," who in maternity cases would earo for the household as well as for their patient., The State might well pay for medical aid and nursing at times of child-birth. The principle involved was already accepted 111 jonnontioii with free education. It would loubtloss lead to a reduction of the present

high infantile death-rate. Ho approved of frco school-books, and incidentally expressed a fear that primary education in tho rural districts was suffering through funds being divorted to technical education in tho cities. Tho Government should do all that was possible to help tho married worker to help himself. (Applause.) CORONERS AMENDMENT BILL. Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. Dr. Findlay) in moving tho second reading of tho Coroners Amcndmont Bill said he intended to move certain amendments when tho Bill was in Committee. Ono of these was intended to relievo, tho coroner of tho duty of viewing tho body if it appears from a mcdical cortificato that the deceased person died of any infectious disease. The Hon. 0. SAMUEL (Taranaki) said that if suitablo men were appointed as coroners the dispensing with certain old safeguards, as provided in. the Bill, would bo a proper step, but it was most important that competent men should be appointed. Tho coroner would, doubtless, very often call a jury to his assistance, bijt ho did not think tho provision enabling the At-torney-General to order a jury to bo summoned would bo operative outside Wellington. Ho thought that in cases where a magisterial inquiry as to criminal responsibility was held it would be proper to dispense with a coroner's inquest, and thus avoid duplication. After a filrthor brief discussion the Bill was read a second time, and refeiTed to tho Joint Statutes Revision Committee. FOR FLEET WEEK EXPENDITURE. Tho Local Authorities Indemnity Bill, which had just previously been passed by tho Lowor House, was put through all its stages without amendment. The Council adjourned at 4.45 p.m. THE HOUSE. THE PRISON REPORT. The Houso of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m.When tho Prisons Report was laid on the table by tho Hon. J. M'Gowan (Minister for Justice) Mr. Laurenson expressed the hope that members would be given a chance todiscuss the report, at' a later date —after they had had a chance to study it.

Tho PRIME MINISTER said it was im•possiblo for the Government to promise on tho presentation of reports that chances would be given to discuss them at later dates. An opportunity could_ always bo seized when Imprest Supply Bills wero inttoduced. The opportunity might not bo •available to set aside _ any time, and it woiild bo wrong for hijn to say definitely that it would be. Our System. Mr. LAURENSON said that ho had not yet 'seen tho report of the Prisons Department, but lie would like to say a word about the prisons. He could only praise tho general order and cleanliness of tho prisons; he also contradicted ■ certain statements regarding the Lyttelton Gaol. . But the matter ho wanted to impress upon the Minister was that the system should bo altered. It was not sufficient to punish criminals by imprisonment. A duty was owing to society and to criminals themselves to endeavour to reform tho latter. Last year's report showed that three out of every four prisoners .doalt with in tho. prisons wero relapsed criminals. We should try and reform-thorn instead of keeping tjiem criminals all their lives. Ho quoted tho experienco of tho .New South Wales system. _ That system consisted of tho strictest disciplino, the teaching of criminals somo useful trado pr calling, and the giving to them n proportion of tho money they might have earned by their work/ in prison. Hero wo turned the prisoners adrift. Certainly..wo.■ gave them. £4 or £5 on their release, but of what value was that? Tho timo was ripe in New Zealand for prison reform;'. and\:it: would ipay.-tho,.coun-try, ho thoroughly believed, to undortako the work. . Other Views. Mr. POOLE (Auckland) expressed tho i opinion that tho New Zealand prisons wero. a long wty ahead of many..in other parts of tho world. Regarding the statements that criminals driven out of Australia by the criminal laws thero came to New Zealand, ho was glad that tho Minister for Justice had passed legislation which to a great extent threw a damper upon theso immigrants to our shores. Mr. HERRIES (Bay of Plenty) believed tho tree-planting system was commendable, but the" method of selecting men for. tho camps was faulty. Tho wrong class of criminals wore sent out. Those guilty of- assaults should not bo allowed to endanger tho neighbourhood. A " Half-way " Institution. Mr., WILFORD, referring to drunkards brought up for medical treatment, contended for the establishment of a "half-way" house, in which to place' such men. He also said that year after j'ear thousands were spent on criminals, but no'effort was made to study .crime. In Italy, Austria, France, and America, criminals were classified. Referring. to a recent , lecture on the matter, he said it had beea pointed out that normal and abnormal criminals- should not -be treated alike. He suggested that a system in vogue in America for treating malingerers in gaol be adopted here. Ho hoped sincerely that something would be done to classify criminals. Industrial Farms., Mr. HOGG contended that wo had littlo crime in tho Dominion, and that - littlo should not ho difficult to reform. He would like to seo industrial 'farms established near the main centres, at which persons without means could earn'their living. It would keep exprisoners, unablo to secure work, out' of prison! " . . 1

Tho MINISTER, after other members had spoken, complained that those whq had advocated reform had given no indication upon what lines reform should, go. LOCAL AUTHORITIES INDEMNITY. The Houso went into Committee on the Local Authorities Indemnity Bill. Tho Bill is to authorise and validate expenditure of local authorities in conncction with tho visit of tho American Fleet. << The Bill Was adopted with amendments proposed by -tho Prime Minister to validate expenditure by any local authority— not confining it to Auckland—and to enable tho repayment of travelling expenses of representatives at the late reception. The-Bill was reported and read a. third time. :. } THE ESTIMATES. ~ ' ! POLICE DEPARTMENT. The Houso proceeded to discuss tho Estimates. Tho total Police Department Class was £173,499. Mr. T. WILFORD repeated his statements of provious years that the payment of the polico was inadequate, compared with that outside thofqreo. Ho complained also that chief detectives' wcro not ablo to becomo subinspectors. Only once in twenty years had a chief detective been appointed a subinspector in New Zealand. Tho. Minister: That shows they are not barred. Mr. Wilford proceeded that every constablo could rise to a sub-inspcctorship, but a chief detective- could not. Every chief detective throughout tho Dominion was waiting to • hear whether tho cast-iron rulo of promoting station sergeants to sub-inspec-torships was to bo adhered to, or whother they were to bo ablo to rise to tho prizo position of tho forco. Quito recently a man who had been a sergeant soven years was promoted, and men who had been chief detectives for nine years were passed over. The Men in Blus. Turning to the constables, ho said .that the Wellington dustmen received 10s. a day, and maiiy constables got 7s. 6d. ' What a magnificent, salary for tho "men in blue"! The detectives received from 10s. to 15s. a day, which inspectors received from £340 to £460 a year, and sub-inspectors from £260 to £1)10 a year.

Mr. IZARD also urged tho Minister to increase tho salary of the police. He asked tho Minister to do something in recognition of the work of Chief Detcctivo M'Grath and Detect-ivo Cassells in recently capturing burglars in Wellington. The Hon. J. M'GOWAN said that tho roreferences to wages were to somo extent misloading. Married men received Is. a day houso allowance and freo uniforms, whilo tho single men also had free quarters. Tho education test had been mado moro sovere, yet there was a good supply of candidates. If dotcctivcs wero prepared to go back into tho uniformed force they could qualify for a sub-inspectorship. No police force ho knew of was so well paid as tho Now Zea.land force. . Tho PRIME MINISTER suggested regarding salaries that tho Superannuation Amendment Act should bo awaited. The Class was passed. J MINES DEPARTMENT. Tho total vote under Class. XIV, Mines Department, was £38,650. Mr. J. ALLEN said he could not seo why there should bo a Government Geologist drawing £400 a year, when Dr. Bell, Director of tho Geological Survey, could do all the work. Mr. POLAND urged that the salaries of certain of tho Inspectors of Mines should be increased. Mr. JENNINGS pleaded for an examination of tho Rohe Potea by Dr. Bell. The MINISTER FOR MINES (Hon. J. M'Gowan) said,'in reply to Mr. Poland, that somo of the salaries of inspectors were smaller than those of their predecessors, because their appointments were but recent. Thero had, however, boon increases of salary. Applications for Dr. Bell's services had been received in sufficient numbers to keep him employed for six years. . Ho would not bo sent to report oil mining propositions or speculations; His work .was ,to mako a geological survey of the whole Dominion. Ho could notendorse the suggestion of some members that the Stato should engage in gokl-mining. It was too speculativo a pursuit. To Accelerate the Geological Survey. Mr. liERRIES contended that the staff of. the Geological Survey should bo increased, and tho work accelerated. At tho present rate of progress it would tako many years to complete. Sir. J. ALLEN suggested that university professors should bo added to tho Goological Survey staff during their summer I vacation.

Dr. CHAPPLE asked that tho Geological Survey should prospect for artesiau wator in Central Otago. / The MINISTER, in the courso of further discussion,; said that no application for aid to prospecting was refused if recommendod by tho Inspector -of- Mines -of the district. The regulations were so simple that ho'who ran might read. .Mr. POLAND' said that until the recent alteration by which the regulations . wero mado more'liberal,' there was _ so much red tape, and tho assistanco obtainable was so small that very few applications wero made. The House was told last year that Dr. Bell would take his trip round the world on half pay, but it appeared from the Estimates last year and this year that he had been on full pay all tho time. Several members asked that Dr. Bell should be instructed to carry out survey work in their districts. The'MINISTER said ho had determined to interfere as littlo as possiblo with Di\- Bell's idea of how the work should be arraiiged. The survey should be carried on systematically, and he, therefore, could not accede to all tho requests of. mcmbors. Mr. THOMSON asked if'the men who had shown conspicuous bravery in rescue work in connection with tho Nightcaps Mine, disaster wore to be rewarded; as recommended by tho Royal Commission. Tho MINISTER said be would look into the matter. • The Class was passed unaltered. DEPARTMENT OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS. Tho total vote for Class XV, Department of Internal Affairs, was £120,061. The printing of the electoral rolls at private printing offices throughout tho Dominion was again advocated, Messrs. Herries, Tanner, and Davey speaking to that effect.; The last-named stated that - under tho new system there were far moro mistakes than before. He hoped tho Government would carefully compare tho expense and efficiency under each system. Mt: J. ALLEN said tho appropriations indicated that, tho new system. would be more expensive. It also deprived localities of the work of printing, which they did satisfactorily, and caused congestion iu tho.Government Printing Offico. He saw no advantage in the new system. - He moved the-reduction of tho item by £1 as an indication that the printing of the rolls should bo done in tho. electoral districts. instead, .of at the- 1 Government Printing Office. • Several other members spoko against tho centralisation scheme, including Mr. Hogg, who maintained that it was a paltry action to deprive the country newspapers of. the perquisite of printing the. rolls. . , Tho PRIME MINISTER took exception to remarks about the printing of the main roll by tho Government. Members' did not appear to: realise what, had caused tho change. The change was tho outcome of the, clamour that arose from tho striking-off of the names. Now, before the change had been put into operation, complaints were being mado :by ■ members. _ If • mombcrs-desired to go back to tho principle of striking off those .electors who did not vote, ho (the Premier) was quite agreeable. (Hear, hear.) Tive thousand names had been-struck-off. aftor a' general election, and many of. them at-con-■ ,siderablo cost had been put back again. ■He, personally, was opposed- to-any influence : being brought to bear either on ofte' side or tho other, to keep names off the electoral roll of the Dominion. Tho Government were prepared to givo extra assistanco to have, all eligible voters placed upon the roll. He detailed tho careful precautions that wero being taken to keep tho roll as satisfactory as possible. . He Wanted to Know. Mr. TANNER (Avon) wanted to know why nine years ago the appropriation for the geneial election was . £26,200, and now was £44,279? Nino j'oars ago. the system was' more satisfactory. The country's money was running away through tho bung-holo of the barrel.- Ho complained that electoral rolls wore not yet in the hands of members. ' Tho PRIME MINISTER said the comparisons of tho last speaker were not fair. The populations wore different in the periods compared. In the three years from 1903 the total appropriations wore £21,971, under the old system. For tho last th'reo yoars under the new system tho appropriations wero £17,893 —a considerably lesser sum. Tho rolls under the new system wero out four months earlier. Mr. Herries: Not in all the electorates! ■ Tho Primo Minister proceeded that tho cost of tho roll per pago this year would bo Bs. to 125., but next year and succeeding years tho cost would be from Is. 6d. to 2s. per pago. Tho reason was that some 50 tons of typo had to bo sot up, and this could be kept standing. Mr. AITKEN thought it right that members should wait for results before they passed judgment on tho new Department. " Mr. J, ALLEN moved that tho items,' preparation and printing of rolls £9000, be reduced by £1. This was lost by 33 to 16.' Mr.. NGATA suggested that economies could bo effected by appointing- as deputy registrars, persons residing in the locality whero they wero to act. Appointoes had been caused to travol long distances to Na,tivo scboolhouses, whero tho teachers could have acted as deputy returning officers. Tho HON. J. CARROLL said tho matter would receive consideration. Tho Census. . Mr: TANNER argued for a ten years' census, instead of a fivo years' census. Mr. Herries: That would suit tho South Island all right! ■ - : Mr. Tanner said New' Zealand was only part of the" Empire whero a census' was taken oftonor than once in ten years. The chango would savo £25,000 onco in ton ■years. Mr. ELL. strongly objected to tho ton-year proposal, on tho ground that it would prevent tho proper redistribution of seats. Tho PRIME MINISTER said tho Goveminent did not intend to make any change.

Sir. GRAY urged, that tho Maori census should be taken by as good methods as the European. Ho had been told of an official who put tho Natives' horses and dogs on tho consus .paper, and ho could not belicvo that there wero 47,000 Maoris in tho Dominion, as returned by the census. Vaccination. Mr. LAURENSON moved a reduction of £1 to indicate disapproval of compulsory vaccination. Tho motion was lost—Ayes 19, Noes 22. The High Gommi3sionar. Mr. J. ALLEN mentioned a rumour that tho Hon. W. P. Ileeves's successor would not bo appointed before tho end of tho session. The PRIME MINISTER said he had already stated that he would make an announcement on the subject before tho end of tho session, and it was his habit to keep his promises. Mr. AITKEN urged that the High Commissioner's office should bo in the business part of London. Tho PRIME MINISTER said that the rent of the present offices was £675' a year. It would bo better, for tho general purposes of the Dominion, if the office were nearer tho centro of London. Nevertheless, the greatest attention was given to tho produce trade, and much of this work had to be done at tho public markets, which wero far distant from where any office would be. ■Tho MINISTER FOR LANDS (Hon. R. M'Nab) stated in reply to Mr. J. Allen that tho reports of the Veterinarian in London were confidential, but what was required went to the experts at tho export slaughterhouses. The voto for the Department of Internal Affairs and tho Crown Law Department wero passed unaltered. , • The Defence Department was postponed, apd the estimates of tho. Customs Department wero next taken. .This class also was passed unaltered, and the Houso rose at 2.10 a.m.