HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 24, 23 October 1907, Page 8

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

MEiKLE ACQUITTAL BILL; ;, \ SECOND -READING.;;':',; '; ! The Premier, in iriovrng tho second reading ef tlio Meikle AcqifiitaMiill, said he'felt'it; was necessaiy to put on record the report/ of tlio Royal' Commission on this matter.' The Bill-proposed; to give effect to that, report. Tho Bill did to deal with

tho componsatiipn , side of'the'! matter.'.' Tho Royal Commission had-found that but for itho evidence, of ono witness,who had perjured himself, a jury would not have been justified_ in declaring Meikle guilty. The only thing'the country'could do now was to romove from tho criminal records tho 'judgment ..-against Mcikle.. ,Tho Premier suggested, and. said he would movo later, that a committee ."consisting of Messrs. Malcolm; Mander, Reid, T. Mackonzio, Tanner, - Witty/' Arnold, Poole, Symes, and Hanan,. should be sot: up 'to go» into the matter of compensation. The Premier then put on record.in !'Haiisard' ; ' the report of the "Royal Commission. He went on to say that where' there had' been 'a miscarriage of justice all possible should be done to remove and right a wrong. ; (Hoar, hear.) . ■■:■ ; Mr. Massey said he,did not intend to say mncli because ho..was. in sympathy with tho iJiIl.- He briefly traversed the fncts regarding Meildo, and said that what appealed to him--was the great fight-he had n'lft up. Umpensatioti, ho concluded,;should be given Meikle For tho seven years' imprisonment .he had wrongly served; .'■'.. A Ceneral Measure '.Wanted. Mr. James Allen remarked that there should be some general measure to admit of a prisoner wrongly convicted obtaining justice at' the hands .of tlio Government•:' instead of Bpeciallegislatibn : wnth all its; delay's "having brought down. Ho hopeel tlie present Bill would,bo,made.a publiciono, and bo applicable to future, cases..,,.::: . Mr. Barclay (Diiiicdin North) agreed with the previous speaker. He. suggested that, i ■ as the records ; could not be expunged, ■wheravor the name of. Meikle, occurred a note be added in each..; iiistance, "See Meikle'i Acquittal: Bill.". He.;, ro'fewed- to ,the report of Uie'Commission, and said .that, though' ho liad been acquitted.'of thX offence, against him, he was not one' who should.be elevated ,to the position of a' martyr. Straight Talk. \ '"^.--..M!! ■">■'.:..'.:■" .'■:■-: ' ' Mr.;Fishor v (Wellington ' Central) argued that in the' setting up of. the committee oni the matter of compensation .care, should-be taken'to have a 'thoroughly.' unbiased .one. It might be that'some of Meiklo's most' inveterate enemies would beV placed on that committee. A few "'minutes', ago' an interjec.tionhad been made'.that:Meil<le was guilty. .-; The Premier: ;Who was [it?"'' : . ; .-' ''' : Mr. Fisher: I don't know.".'- ; ' : ,' The Premicr:''lf I' knew," I -woulcl sco' ho was not on the. : c6mmitt6e. : •; ■■•' ■' '. ■ .■'.' Mr; Fisher,-proceeded that' they 'had had the matter talked about.freelyin the House, and] thore ' wfero men 'on 1 , the Government benchos" who were as much against Meiklq ,a.3 possible.' Up to. the; present the question' had been,'was Meikle guilty? Now it was 'what amount of compensation ■ should be"; "giveni and in such a matter,there should be' uhprojudiced judgment. Mr. . Fisher congratulated tho Minister on th,o. steps so. far taken, suggested an, impartial tribunal could not. be selected from-the House. He did , not •. contend that, the Premier had. selected the: committee either for or against •Meikle, but he must know,;that' theregwas strong prejudice in.theHqusoagainst-Meiklo. ..s Mr. Dillon. (Hawke's Bay): It's an insult, ,to this.House.: (Hear, hear.):;-.- • ■„■: .- '.vMr;. Fisher said the interjector could tako his remarks ns he liked.,.), :. , , : ,. -Mr. Dillon .(heatedly) :l;takpit as a personal insultV- (Hoar,.hear,,and laughter.) Mr. Fisher: I said, that there were onomies of Meildo in the :Houso, and I say so still. It was impossible to get an impartial tribunal in the House'../.There was. too .much, logrolling. (Interruptions:) . He had his opinion, ibbut this matter, and would not be shifted me-way,.or. tlieyothOT.like'.those.. who wore, nftho habit of"having, their opinions made or them. '■.(Interruptions.), Mr. Fisher pro:eedcchthat the.Premipr.intended.to,put the, iillllttirough all its'.stagesi'-'.at once,.and he iontrinded,that.before this,,was done the re-, )Qrt. ; as to. compensation should come .down. '. Tliei'Premier :'jTlio two matters" are entirely' 'iEiSeroTii.'' -. '■';.,- . : . ■ ■ ■■'■' ■ ■ - ; ■ Mr • Fisher suggested that the matter ii hould be reforred,.toD/.:M'AFthur, District, -Jwlge'Epttlo,, or, some" similar person. '~. . ::,If;fLauf'enson -dbjects. , .■■,-. . ■ Mr';"G. Laurenson'(Lyttelton), speaking as "one'who had always -believed in: the innocency of Meiilo, protested against tho expressions •used by Mr. Fisher, in;,regard, to members of Parliament. Ho. (Mr. Laurenson) would trust a parliamentary Committee: to sift tho facts' of a case more thoroughly than any other tribunal/ He believed Moikle had been wrongly convicted,Vandiihould.'bo compensated. What he had read of the evidence be.fpre the Royal Commission, had caused him to have'ltss'respect for Meikle's character, but that should liot 'affect; tho 'qiiestion of the .componsatipn duo .to ; hitn.i ' ':'.'.. Other SsJeaKers. '..;' '' \; ';;-" •'"' '■"' ' " Mr.. ; F. W. Lang (llaniiknu).congratulated the Premier on bringing, down, the Bill. . Mr.Hogg (MastertonJ.Baid"he.strongly,resented: tho aspersions ...cast-: by Mr. Fisher upon the character of member's of.th.e- House. In no proporly-constitutwl.,, assembly, would' such language 'be:'tolerated;,. (Hear, hear:) The accusation amounted to .saying that m6mbers' were false:, to the.oath they ,had takeh,. and: wore.utterly, ■incapajilo- of framing the .laws';of the .country.' The*language, of tho hon.' mcmb'pr,' if used in some; circles, .would have provoked,a breach of thb; peace. (Laughter.) -,':' ',;:'.'": "'."• ..">:■■'■.■ ■;■ ■-'.'' ■..■.''. Mr. Ci Lewie (Courtenay)' said ho was. : amused by v Mr: .Hogg's 'speech, becaiise tho 'member, for Masterton, had.'foi" ton, or fifteen "years' : been., cbhsiiantly ; att+ibuting improper ':'and aordid '. motive's to members of the. Op'.positlo'n." Ho'was'glad;to;firid.thatMr. Hogg ".was ; discovering tno.iinistalce he- had'been, imaldng all along. (Laughter.) But even if tho House could not furnish an impartial, tribunal, why should that lie' specially' con-,' ; siiloredin Moiklo's so many other potiMoners; had to have thoir claims adjudicated upon by;the;Houso? If the Committee merplj had te deal with the compensation duo to Moiklo.'as , a question! of- accountancy, it would bo an : easy- some-friend, of Meiklo's to' set-'the facts-.and; figures, before tho Committee,:-and.that:- evidence ■ would be. ombodiediri the report. -As to .whether-there was anything'else that the Committee might: havo: to consider,-that was : ; unknpwu to .the House until the , ordori of roferonco:was before it- ■■■■■ '•■■■••■■■:■ ' ■•'■'-•• .•■■■■.■.;;■.■.■■:.- : ■ . •- :.. .. Obleotionable^Pamphlet.p,^. 1 ;-:..-;;.;'; Mr.- Hornsby took Mr. ~Fishcr to task-, for his allegations of partiality- against, members. He 'declared it' must done . much to projutliceMeikles'scase. Knowingwhathodid of the case he (Mr.. Hornsby)..would not like to sit on 1 the Committee- : Ho' .'referred, to a pamphletlentiled ''Cleared/at, Last," and do, clared it, an unwarrantable attack , an the judiciary, ofNcW.lZealand; it was ,a pollution that would,cast very littlo..credit on those responsible .'for;,it. .; ■-.■■'■ ■;.;. ... Mr.-A. L. D. Frasor;lt;is worthy of-the compilers. ■•' ■ ■ -, •' ; : ■. Mr: Hornsby continued that there had been I a doubt about Meikles's giiilt, and it , was right he should have the benefit of tho doubt. Ho insisted that'Meiklo had, beon made use of largely' for 'political purposes in his peregrinations through tho country, and had Dcen assisted with, funds to'thatj end. JVlr. Horries 1 deplored thfe i personal feelings that had been'introduced .into the proceedings. He took oxception to the reforonoe that funds had been supplied bjr-tho Opposition to assist Meikle for political gains. Debate Concluded. The 'debate was ■ cintinued by various speakors. Mr. A. L. D. Frasnr spoke 3trongly against tho, passing of-tho-Bill. He also asserted that Meikle had licen used at'thb street corners by certain individuals opposed to the late Mr. Scdilnn' and Sir ; Joseph Ward; but he absolved'from any such transaction the members; of the Opposition. Mr. Hornsby in reply to. Mr. Aitken said he had only referred to those in oppoaition. to the Government, as haying made use of Meiklc. Ho had not said'members of tho Opposition benches. ... Mr. Remington (Rangitikoi), after traversing the evidence, of the 'Royal Commission

at' ioiigth" and speaking adversely to Moikle, moved that the measuro lie read six months from date. ■ Mr. J. Allen was proceeding to protest that tho Bill should not bq killed. It was not a question of compo.nsht.inn, onlv a proposal to give effect to the finding of tho Commission. ■ • The Premier: The amendment won't bo earnod. : ~'.'.. Tho amendment was lost by 45 votes to 10. Members' voting for tho amendment wore: Messrs. Klatrrian, A.-L. D. Frascr, Honisby, Lcawry, Lethbridge, Lewis, R. M'Kenzi'o, i'arata, Komington, and Ross; The Premier Replies. The Premier, in replying, said one of the regrettable features of the report of the Commission was that the matter of compensation had not been dealt with. It was set out that the amount would be a matter for Parliament to decide, and in'complying with the directions of the Commission members should clear their "minds of all political' bias and prejudice, and approach the question in a .fair and judicial spirit. As 'to Meilde'spolitical crusades, lie had never yet known pcrsonnl attacks on politicians to do any harm. The common sense of.tho people prevented it. Regarding Mr. Allan's suggestion to, have legislation of a general character under which wrongly condemned individuals should be dealt with, circumstances would make this almost impractical. It would-be virtually setting up a new appeal court. • Better to have special legislation, as cases arose, if tboy should arise..., Air. F. Lawry called for a division on the second reading. :. r ' : The Bill was read a second time by 42 votes to 12. ...... ■ , NATIONAL ENDOWMENTS. SECOND READING OF THE BILL. COMPLETION OF THE '. GOVERNMENT'S ~ LAND PROGRAMME. The House was'well, filled.'at 7.30 when Sir Joseph Ward moved the 'second reading of tho National Endowment Bill, which is tho .third of the series ■ of the. Government measures dealing with the land system of tho Dominion. The Premier began by referring to ' the action of the Lands Committee in striking out.the schedule of the Bill. : It would be quite possible to carry the Bill through the House without a schedule to indicate the total area of Crown _ lands to be set aside in the several land districts of tho Dominion for the purposes ■ of' endowments, but he 'thought it would be more desirable from the point of view of the country and for the' sake of the working of tho measure to have tne areas'of tho endowments specified. Ho, therefore, intended to move'in Committee of the' Whole .to amend Clause 2 by omitting the words "the schedule horeto" and substituting "Parliamentary Paper B, 1907."' This was the. paper which was circulated some littlo time ago, and' which showed in detail the parcels of land proposed-to be set aside for the purposes indicated. Tho areas inthe different land districts, wero as ; follow: — ,■ s ' ' Acres. Auckland 900,000 •; Hawko's Bay ... ... 135,000 Taranaki ... ... ... 90,000 : Wellington. ... • ... 90,000 Nelson '..." ... ...' 1,350,000 Marlborough ... :.. .'450,000 . Wostland ... ... ... 1,035,000 Canterbury * ... ... 1,800,000 Otago • ... ... ... 2,250,000 . Southland ... ... 900,000 ''Total ... ~. 9,000,000. .: Tho Present Rent, Roll. ~ The rents coming: at tho presont moment from those portions of thoso nino millions acres,that wero leased amounted to £49.031 ,a year.' He wanted to show members how the proposals would affect their respective districts. .The present annual rentals of these lands were as follow:— ' Aiickland.-T-Small grazing runs £226, Hauraki pastoral leases £232, pastoral runs £179: total, £637. .Hawko's Bay—£36. . . , . Taranaki.—No rentals received at present from the endowment lands. , . Wellington.—Pastoral runs £371, miscellaneous leases £29. .-, Nelson.—Leases-in-porpotuity £m, o.r.p. £38, pastoral runs £13. . •Marlborough.'—£l799. , ~- Westland.— Leases-in-porpotuity £49, ordinary pastoral runs £461, pastoral runs in mining ; districts £170, temporary, grazing licenses .£63, lands held under the< Mining Districts' Laud Occupation Act £6, misceL lanoous leases £132. ■ Canterbury—£24,Bl3. '■, Otago—£l7,3Bl. Southland—£2s2s. . . ; Tlic'total of tho rentals now being received was, roughly, £49,000, out.of which £44,000 camb'frbm tho three districts of Canterbury, Otago, and Southland,.. leaving, only £500(1. for the rest of the Dominion. Thoao. members.' who, when tho setting, aside of eighteen million acres-was contemplated, objected on account of the injury which was to bo done, especially to their districts, from; thoir point of view, would now sec that .their objections would not stand pualysis. ■ The Neetlior Endowments. .'..'■.■" .: Tlio revenue from the endowment lands .was .dividciT by giving 70 per cent, to educa.tion and 30 per cont. to old age pensions. It was necessary that, somo provision should Be made for those two great features of our social life—education and old ago pensions. The osponditure on ' education in '■■ tho year 1902-3 wa5'£566,666, and'it had...increased year by year until in 1906-7 it was £813,530. The-expenditure on school buildings during the same' period had increased from £57,790 in 1902-3. t0'£109,459. Old nge pensions totalled .-£213,945 in. 1902-3, and after some fluctuations, tho total in 1906-7 was. The oxpondituro on. education .and old ago pensions taken together had increased at tho averago rate of £100,000 in five years. The, importance of having an educated people, would bo generally conceded, and few- people .would take exception to . the continual broadening of. the requirements in this connection'.' If this broadening was to be further continued, some provision of a permanent character would have to tie mado in addition to the drafts upon the Consolidated Fund. ,The 9,000,000 acres might.now seem toolittlo to somo membqrs, but no one could .tell what tho revenue therefrom would grow to in twenty-five ...or fifty years. The-Need for Compromise, '■ The Premier next asked; membors to recollect that the two provions Bills dealing with the land system had passed through tho House owing to a .spirit of compromise among members who; held different, though "scatca alike on tho Govornmont side of the House. The leaseholders had got something, and tho freeholders had got something. . Mr. .W. Fraser: They got nothing. " • ■ .- . Mr. Masscy: They wero sold. •:■ The Premier: I am surprised to hear thoso expression's, after ;what tho Leader , of the Opposition lias said before!': ' Mr. Massey: The principle of freehold was affirmed, and that was all. '. : ■ ; ' : ,: The Premier said that was a good deal. It was tho result of compromise, and ho hoped that this would .be remembered in dealing with the , present Bill. .-. The Loss of. the Schedule.,- .. '." Ho, would like to know why tho Lands Committee-.struck out that .schedule . Mr. W. Frasor: For a very good 'reason. Thq Premier said that as go largo a proportion of. tho endowments woro in , tho South,' ho was surprised to find that momhers from that part of tho Dominion, where, ho understood, the principlo of endowments was favoured should havo assisted to striko out tho schedule.' Mr. W. Frascr: "It was becauso there is so much of the land there. . ■The Prcmior: Then I claim the support of tho -Northern .members, ill whose districts tliere is comparatively littlo endowment land;. ; . ■ . ■ ■ .-. ■ '■..':'■ A: Member: You ,won t got it. . . Was.tho Reservation Justified? The question aroso whether tho Govern- , -monfc' with wio comparatively small area of land still in. the possession of the Dominion was justified in asking .for'the reservation of nine, -'million acres. '. "I havo.' no hesitation in sayiug we liavo every right to. do it," They had to look to the future—to provide

for succeeding generations. He thought .succeeding generations would think well of the present Government for setting nsido provision lor the two great olijects no had mentioned. He felt sure that in approaching, this portion of the hind legislation the members would lay aside anything in the way of local prejudice that would warp their .judgment. Under the Hill there would ho no lockiiig-iip of land in any portion of the Dominion—unless it bo in Otago and Canterbury—hut there would ho- no locking-itp of lauds in those districts tlftc would prevent closer settlement under any tenure outside the leasehold system. A Return. The Preinior then proceeded briefly to enumerate the clauses of tho Bill. Ho also, in passing, directed attention to a return which lie had just laid on thetablo of the House, which showed the lands proposed to be set aside in each district. , . . . The Principle. Tho principle of tho Bill was to reserve nine million acres for leiiso-liolding purposes under , the renewable lease system for all time. It would give an opportunity to settlors in the future, who, as population in-; creased and as settlement absorbed up land and raised its price, would have difficulty in securing sections to settle. Tt was desirablo —nny, it was of the greatest importance—that thus early in the Dominion's history tho Government should make provision for those who otherwise would ho prevented from getting land through private sale: Having explained the Bill he could only say that after tho .approval of the House in regard to the other two incisures, he had every confidence in submitting this measure. He also firmly believed that tho people of the country would also approve tho action of tho House. (Applause.) LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION. Mr. Massey: "The right hon. gentleman has had a good deal to say about compromise. That was practically the text of his speech." Ho (Mr. Massey)' was not much in favour of compromising. It was unsatisfactory in . important matters, and they had had too much of it already. Either tho Government's land nationalist proposals wero , right ..or they were, wrong. -If wore right they should be agreed to, and if they were wrong they should be resisted. Tho land nationalists were not satisfied with the last Bill, but came up smiling and asked for another, and the, Premier this time was their mouthpiece. He felt sure that if the people, were given an. opportunity to express their opinion on tho Bill it would novor become law. The proper way would be to let that opinion be given—go to the country with tho Bill. While the Premier was speaking an idea had occurred to him —he helicved tho Premier had taken up the Bill because it was a Treasury Bill. Did they remember a previous Treasury Bill which proposed to resorvo 17 million acres by way of endowments. The minister for Lands had • had charge of-that, and properly so, and the Minister, if ho was able to take control of that Bill, should be entrusted with tho present oue. Ho believed the Premier was a recent convert to the endowment idea. He recalled a'movement to .have Miramar taken as an endowment, .and how tho Government, including tho Promier, had opposed it. Tho Select Committee. The Bill, said Mr. Massoy, had been dealt' with by practical men in the Select Committee. They had expressed no opinion on the principle of the Bill, but had knocked out the schedule. They disapproved entirety of the lands sot asido as endowments; . The Premier: Do you propose to knock it in ? (Laughter.) Mr. Massey: Well, it is not in yet ! Anyway, this showed tho feeling of tho committee towards' tho Government proposals. Clause 2 referred to the schedule—and there oxisted no schedule The Premier had said it was;to be replaced by a parliamentary, paper. This would bo unfair to tho members of tho House. They could strike out any part of tho schedule; and ho (Mr. Massey) intended to object to that portion relating to ws district. Mr. R. M'Kenzio: I want Nelson out. Mr.-Mar.eey.: I will help you then if you help me. (Laughter.) The Tenure. Mr. Massoy supposed from tho remarks of tho Premier that tho tenure of the endowments would bo that of tho ronewablo'leaso, or in the caso of pastoral 'lands under tho portioii of the Act that applied to them. Ho did not think the people would take up tho lands under tho tenure, though tho.pastoral runs miirtit bo-availed of.' . The Bill, in short, would hinder .settlement—at all events in tho Auckland district.' As to the endowments providing for education, Mr. Massey pointed out that education at present cost ilßl)U,opq per annum, and tho Old, Ago Pensions £300,000. From tho. lands thpy would receive.. a gross.-revenue of £49,000—a mere drop in the bucket. - "I am surprised that tho hqn. gentleman, will allow his name to bp associated with such'a,measure." Did ■ tho members ■ know ■ wherb the posals camo from? ' . ■ A member: From the Socialists. (Laughtor). ... ; !-■'•" air. Massey: Yes—(laughter)—from the." leaders of tho Socialists of the past Parliament—Mr. T. E. Taylor.' , -■ Mr. Massey then read from a ; speech by Mr. Taylor,., to support this statement;' Tho, Premier,was, in ■ tlio position, of having allowed himself u to. be made, use , of to give offect to the.-pro-posals'of Mr: T.""E. Taylor. ■■ ' •> Results, of Endowments. ; , '" Mr. Massoy wont on to show that educational oiidoivments had been a,, failure in tho past. Ho quoted the case of the Otago University; the authorities of'-which had come to the Government for assistance. The system, had ( not proved a success. A Royal Commission'haid had to bo sot ui> to enquire into the grievances of the tenants. Tho case of Canterbury was an escoption. Endowments had been an utter; failure in the. North Island. Many.were growing noxious weeds. Ho then quoted the, case; of. the' Auckland University-—£4l6 was received, from an endowment of 30,000 acres! .Auckland. Education Board had endowments totalling 17,865 acres, from which they received practically no revenue. Mr. Massey; quoted other similar instances, and, proceeded that it was diilicult to make people with superficial knowledgq understand the, proposals. It seemed so nice and. easy to say, they wero going to sot aside a quantity of./land and 'get revenue therefrom for educatiq'n/'and old ago pensions. But. the; laVid "to . be'.Bet .aside must ho third class) and it would not' be taken up. If thp.Bill became law, progress, be asserted, would bo set back for many years. (Hear, hear.) -.: ■ ■' ■ »■, ,-■■ • ;■■ .: ■: OTHER SPEAKERS. Mr. G. Laurenson (Lyttelton) said that the Leader of the Opposition ridiculed the endowment proposals because it was proposed to sot aside too much,, and also because it, was. proposed to set asidp.ioo little. The example of Miravnar was an; Unfortunate ..one-for 'Mr!, Massey. A qunrtenfacre of land at Miramar was sold'at-£9OO -the othor day—£36oo an aero. In 1901 Wellington could have bought Miramar at £50 an acre. Putting it at £800 an acre Miramar now was worth £1,200,000. -..This would, havo given the city £60',006 .i.y, year, against an , cxpendituro. for/: tramways and reading (if. £7500. It 'would have halved, the rates of tho city. The deadliest blow over struck at Wellington-was when the city was deprived of that magnificent endowment. Nobody coul dtoll how the national endowment lands would: appreciate in twenty years, or even in ten yoars. - '<■■■ . . ■ The Popular Feeling., ■■'If,ho wont over the country asking the pooplo at public meetings whether they wero willing to set apart this poor nine millions of acres of land , for ondowmouts out of the sixty-six million acres in the Dominion, they would ; reply that they would like even more to ljoj'.roacrved for theso purposes. Did the hon. , members on the other side of.the House want , to part-with all tho land of tho couutry? . Not a fanatic among them— (laughter)—would dare to 'make such a proposal. The momber for Wakatipn would iiot go down to his own district and advise the people to part with "their provincial'educational endowments. The people there knew that.their pioneers wero'right to sot aside a million acres for educational purposes alone, though thoy ' numbered.,only fifty, or sixty

thousand in population. And if it was wrong to cut down local endowments, it was equally wrong to do so with national endowments. As for the leasehold tenure of these lands, lie knew of no system that would load to moro improvement of the land than one under which the tenant was told that all he did in the way of improvements would strengthen his hold on the land and lead to reduction of the rent on a renewal of lease. Half a Loaf. The Bill did not go far enough to satisfy him. Ho would have liked the Government to sot apart all tho remaining Crown lands for endowments. (Hear, hear.) The great bulk of the people would liavs endorsed that policy, but the Government' had gone half .way to meet the freeholders, and ho would support the measure on the principle that half a loaf was better than no bread. If tho Opposition wanted to rehabilitate themselves in the eyes of the people, they should follow the Ministry into the lobby in one solid block in favour of this Bill. (Laughter.) . ' ; "The Big Iron Pot. Tho Hon. C. H. Mills (Wairau) objected to tho principle of endowments, because it seemed to imply' that they would not trust themselves to take proper care of'tho revenues without tying up the land. He had soen many acres of church and school endowment, lands in,.the North of Auckland that were covered with ti-tree and. the like. .Nine million acres Were a great deal to set aside, when , tliere was' so little Crown land loft. The revenue'should all be put into tho big iron pot 'called the Consolidated Fund. Moreover,, ho thought it Was better for tho Crown lands to be all under- the control of one department. The proposals were riot on business, lines. . ... ,", , Mr. Banme (Auckland East), after,speaking in favour of the principle of .freehold, said that the position in regard;to Auckland provincial district uvas that 900,000 acres !werc to lie reserved, and-an injustice would be done to that district if settlement was retarded by the. failure, to open up that lahd on a tenure that would, permit of development. The Premier, on a ' previous visit, had promised/that the o.r.p. would bo' given, and if the.lands were .now to-IM locked up a great injustico would be done to Auckland. ■: ' ■■ - History of the Past. Mr. Herries opposed the Bill because those who came under it. would not receive tho freehold, and because, country endowments were 'never much good. He believed the Isill originated from tho earnest band of land reformers—thirteen of them—that it was a compromise With them';' No one could foretell the future, but they could look to the past. Ho had turned some attention to Great Britain and the endowment system there.; The history there was that. endowments did not increase in value cxcept' ! as they were affected by the fluctuations of, nroduce. The average rent in-.one typical case was £2 10s. an acre. Between 1885 and 1895 there was only an increase in tho-'rents of rural'lands in "one county of England and Wales in ,the, period 1885-1895. In others there had been decreases,;reaching in some cases 25 per cent. The rents received by the Ecclesiastical' Commissioners showed only a small increase from 1874 to 1900,. and it,-was then believed that the income had ceased :to expand.; The church lands, which had not been administered by tho "Commissioners, had produced a decreasing revenue since the seventies; v Endowments or Taxation. , , A far better basis for the funds dealt with in the Bill was to bo found in ordinary taxation, because it -depended ■on different.: interests. If the''educational and old-age pen-, sion systems wore made to depend upon such a rotten reed 'as endowments of rural lands, there, would .'bo a'danger of tho old-age 'pensions being reduced. " Ho ; ex'ceptod ■ endowments of city and suburban land. The.education and old-age.-, pension expenditure would increase faster than -the value, of tho .endow-' ments. Hβ -objected to lands in the North Island which, were suitable for. close settlement '• being made permanently leasehold,when , the people,' as shown 1 by tho selection of tenures when., land was thrown ojieiij" preferred to havo tlie opportunity, of acquiring the freehold. . .' '"'' ' . ■ A C lance Into; the Future... ;r < :\s.-. . Mr. C. H. Poole >(Auckland remarked that the only- city representative;on the Opposition benches, Mr. Aitken, did not run in double harness with'the other--mem-, bors of his party : on' the, land-question. This country was . capable of '■' supporting; thirty million people.', The' lands' proposed for endowments wouldi become very valuable, becauSo towns and cities would arise in the interior at no far distant date. He was a freeholder,'hut he wished to set-aside a part of-'-tho land as- the people's , freehold for the support of national ■institutions. Anybody who obstructed the Bill was the enemy of the community/;' , ; .T.;.', !, "" ; i: Otago Endowments. , , '■'.. .;.' , '. ■Mr. W. Fraser (Wakatipu) said'the-real-object of tho Bill was.not to ' endow education and old age.pensions but to ensure that ,'hiiie million acres of lands should "bo kept back from the freehold. The old ngo pensioners might.get;2d. a week each from.tho ondowments. If tho rentals increased sixfold, which was..unlikely, they would get Is. each. Did the , momber : for Lyttelton,'■ who had dared him to go down-to Otago. and ad-, vocato the selling, of thq. endowments, there, know s that tho'statute that set-those lands apart had a clause permitting tho sale of them, and that' some , of them had , been' sold ? The people down there wanted fewer endowments. If the Premier would amend his Bill to allow the endowment , . land to be disposed of on tho o.r.p. system,, ho r would vote, for..it. -.-,.■ \-.. r.- : , ..-,<•. ..,.' '~,. .. Mr. Hogg (Mastorton) said he was proud of the action' of the Government in bringing down a national endowment schemo oh ;an enormous scale. ■'• .'■■■" .-| ■ .;■■..-.- ■'■}•, Sugar Tax Preferred. '- v •>■■ Mr. Major (Hawera) said old-ago..pensions could havo been :botterprovided : for by a-tax on sugar. He opposed tho Bill, which ho described as-a step towards Socialism. Mr. Buddo thought the Bill wa's a stop in the right direction. ■'■ Mr. Macpherson (Mount Ida), while agreeing with tho principle of endowments for the purpose of education and tho old-age pensions, disliked the applicatisn of. the Bill. Tho lands that would bo brought under.'it in Otago would be of inferior quality, and; little additional revenuo, would result in .tho future-. Ho also entered his protest, on behalf of his constituents, against the schedule proposals regarding ,Otago. ■ '■ ■•■•■■ ; ■-.. '. ■ ' ' ; Mr.'Hanari,.would support the measure, foe the fact that it would tend in tho future to rolievo the .Government from a .dependence', oh annual'.votes.,..;. •■ • ...... Mr. Ross (Pahiatua) approved of~tho endowment principle, but objected to the whole burden .being thrown on the country settlors, and thought' rural endowments .would be 'unsatisfactory. ~";•; \ ;■-:.- ":,'.■' J- '' The''debate ' was, adjourned at ten minutes after midnight, and tho'House then.rose.-