PENSIONS AND ALLOWANCES.

Press, Volume LIII, Issue 16018, 28 September 1917, Page 7

PENSIONS AND ALLOWANCES.

COMMITTEE STAGE OF THE BILL. IMPORTANT STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS. (special to "toe tress.'') WELLINGTON, September 2". The War Pensions Act Amendment Bill was taken in Committee in tho House .of Representatives to-night. On Clause 1 Mr Witch said he considered it hardly tho thing for tho House to deal in Committee with tho Bill when the Minister of Dcfenco had promised to submit to Cabinet fresh proposals. It would be hardly worth whiio for tho House to havo to go through them again. Would the Minister promise to move to report progress after the first clause had been dealt with ?

Mr isitt said it was not right that a New Zealandcr or his dependants should be penalised because he happened to bo at Home when war broke out and enlisted there. He asked tho Minister if there was any way for the dependants of such a man to approach the House for relief.

Mr Wright said ho considered that men requiring financial assistance should bo assured of a certain amount, leaving it to the discretion of the Financial Assistance Board to grant more. Regarding tho question of allowances, they had to take into consideration what tho country could 'stand. He asked for consideration for the Motor Patrol men.

Mr Vigor Brown said the Houso should demand that provision be made for the unfortunate widows of soldiers who committed suicide. The Government did not seem to riso to tho occasion. It was not what tho Government ■wanted to do; it was what tho country wanted to do, and if the Government would not do it tho country would demand a change of Government-. Tho whole of tho provisions in the Bill should bo made retrospective. A straight-out allowance of £2 2s or £2 7s 6d should bo niado, and the soldier's allotment banked against his return. COUNTRY PREPARED TO FIND MONEY. Dr. Newman urged the Government to increase tho allowances. It was impossible for a woman to carry on and bring up children decently on the suggested allowance with the present decreasing purchasing value of the sovoreign. The country was quite prepared to find the money, and there was ho necessity for the Government to be miserly. He considered it was only tho Ministers who stood in tho way of an increased pension. Mr McCJoombs characterised tho financial assistance proposals as illusory. It was unfair to leave Second Division men to the mercy of the Financial Assistance Board. Mr Parr said if it were necessary— and apparently it was—to send tho married men twelve thousand miles to tho front, those left behind in the country must do their best to assist them. The sending away of the martried men would seriously affect the country's industries, and consequently its revenue, so there was a problem whichever way ono looked at it. He commended some of the Government's proposals but considered that the allowance, for each child should bo raised to ten shillings. He suggested that tho pension should not be stopped in the case of female children until the girl reached seventeen years of age. There should be some Court of Appeal to review decisions of the Pensions Board. The soldier at the front required at least three or four shillings a day to provide for his wants at tho front—one shilling or two shillings a day was quite insufficient for him. If the finances of th§ country permitted it, he urged an increase of the soldiers' pay to six shillings a day, thus allowing him to allot three shillings to his wife.

Dr. Thacker (Christchurch East) contended that no Second Division man should be sent to the front.

INCAPACITATED MEN.

Mr Poland took exception to the pension of £2 per week for totally incapacitated men, despite the fact that the Second Division League approved it. The least the country could give to these men was £3 a week, without their having to go before a Board. He condemned the allowance of 7s 6d a week to children. The whole position of tho wife and children of tne men going to the front was not creditable to the country, and nothing in the financial position of the country put forward by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance could prove that the country could not afford an extra amount. The Government gave a bonus of £7 10s to a single girl in the Civil Service, and yet refused to adequately assist the wife and children of men going to the front. Was it fair that men should continue to havo to go to Patriotic Societies for assistance? Members must insist that it should not bo necessary.

MINISTER REPLIES TO CRITICISM,

Sir James Allen suggested, in respect to remarks made by him to tho Socond Division League, that the schedules be put through because they could not bo altered now, and if tho Bill were put through quickly the alteration would bo a matter for tho Government. New Zealandcrs joining tho special New Zealand force in England at the outbreak of tho war became part of our forces. It was not considered desirable to supplement the pay and allowances of men who left New Zealand for England to join tho British forces. Special provision was made in the Bill for men joining tho Motor Patrol so far as pensions wero concerned. Tho right of these men to apply for financial assistance was under consideration, and would be submitted to Cabinet this week-end. Members did not realise how much was being done for soldiers by the Financial Assistance Board- They were granting assistance up to £60,000 a year. Members of the Second Division would find the Board a considerable means of assistance. Life insurance premiums taken out before the war, unless for very large amounts, were being paid by the" Government in full. They also paid tho premiums on some of the policies taken out after the outbreak of war, and the loading, and assistance was even being granted to those taking out policies now. A soldier could take out an insurance policy up to a limited amount. In reply to a member the Minister stated that the limit at present was about £300. Section 5, paragraph 2 of the Bill made provision in regard to pensions for dependants of suicides, provided the suicide was not due to tho man's negligence or misconduct. Provision was also made for widowed mothers.

Begarding tho question of financial assistance, it was considered necessary to increase the maximum to £3, as the Second Division men would probably have more rent and insurance to pay. In regard to tho children's allowances of 7s 6d per week, he wished to remind members that the Government not only provided fA* the child, but also provided for the wife and the man, whilst a widow with a child received an extra 10s per week. There was ample provision already for allowing pensions to girls over sixteen years of age. and in fact pensions had been allowed to strong healthy boys

over sixteen years old. He did not agree that a Board of Appeal in regard to pensions was necessary. It would only lead to disgruntled persons making" claims without producing further evidence. He thought the Pensions Board had done excellent work, ami had gone as far as they possibly could in granting pensious. He did not object to placing a soldier representative on the Board. Information was constantly coming to him warning him not to allow the men at the front to have too much money to spend, as they wasted it unnecessarily. There was no demand, at any rate, for an increase of pay. The New Zealand Government had never acted with regard to quotas without instructions lrom the Armv Council at Home. Mr Wilford asked if tho maimed man at the front was going to be left with a day. Most of then, the Minister would find, would make their allotment 4s a day and allow themselves one shilling. If the Prime Minister would put on the table of the House the regulations of the allowances to be granted to the maimed men. and give members an opportunity of discussing them, so that it might be found necessary to increase them, he would find the debate would end verv happily. What members were afraid of was that if thev let the regulations get into the hands of the Department to grasp, there was no safety whatever. PRIME MINISTER'S PROMISE. The Prime Minister said he was sorry that Mr Wilford doubted the Defence Minister's sense of justice. He considered the Minister of Defence had answered questions that evening in a fair and satisfactory manner. Regarding the question of allowances, there was no difference of opinion between him and the Minister of Defence. He admitted that the regulations were just as important as the pensions, and it was the duty of the Government to give the Houso an opportunity of discussing them. "When the Minister of Defence was ready to lay the regulations on the table of tho House, ho promised the House that it would have tlie opportunity of discussing

them. . The Chairman of Committees (Air Malcolm) said that as a promise had been given to discuss the allowances, it would be advisable for members to confine themselves to the Bill. in reply to Mr 1211, the Prime Minister said "the regulations would bo discussed before being iinally gazetted. Thore would be no unfair attempt on his part to take advantago of the House. Mr Vcitch asked whether the Government would act on any recommendations the House made. Mr Mossey said it might agree to them. D'uring the discussion, members could move atiy motion or recommendation they wishod. Mr Harris contended that definite standards should be laid down in respect to financial assistance to soldiers. Mr Webb said lie considered that tlie child's allowance was altogether inadequate. Mr Glover thought tliat New Zealand's quota could be reduced to one thousand men a month. Mr Lee urged an increase in _ the children's allowances, and the providing of free medical and dental treatment for children. Mr Witty said he. folt convinced that the Minister of Finance could arrange somo way to make bettor provision for the Second Division men. Mr Statham said he was one of r>robably only three mcmbors of the House who were members of tho Second Division. Mr Talbot: More than three. Mr Statham contended that if there was the storn necessity of sending married men to tho front, there was tho equal duty of providing for their dependants, and the men who remained at home should be prepared to foot the bill. IMd the provisions contained in tlie Bill entail on the men remaining at homo their having to give up some of their luxuries ? Members: No. Mr Statham: "Not in the least." Tho men at home -would not, lio contended, have to jnake any sacrifice. He submitted that 7s 6d per week was inadequate for the support of a child. The Bill had its merits, but there were several things in it which would have to bo cleared up. Some of the provisions were mere pretences.

Mr Horn shy said the irreducible minimum pension for a woman should £2 2s a week, with 10s 6d for each child. It was incumbent on members to see that the Bil] did not go through without these provisions being made.

Mr Poole contended that if it wore necessary to send the Second Division to the front, it was necessary for the people with money to provide for the dependants.

FINANCIAL POSITION

Sir Joseph Ward (Minister of Finance) said he considered that every member should have the courage not to malco appeals for those men they were all anxious to help, without taking into consideration the financial position of the country. Members of the House were as much responsible for the finnnces of the countrv as the Government. (Hear, hear.) He was going to tell them the position of tho country financially. If any member of the House wanted to put the pistol at the Government, let him do it—(Hear, hear) —but let the country know the position. The amount of the allowances in 12 months from' now would be £2,037,691; add to this pensions totalling £1,063,000, and a total of £3,100,691 was arrived at for one year. And say the war went on longer than next year, what would be the position then? Tho total amount this country had to provide for war pensions, increases in the old age pensions, etc., the war bonus, and the amount tho Efficiency Board said wo were going to lose by six o'clock closing of hotel bars camc to £4,825,691. Out of that amount the total upon the Estimates last year was £975,000, leaving £3,900,000, and in that calculation no amount was provided for the additional number of wives of men at the front for whom we had to make provision. He for one was not going to do anything unless the House gave the Government the taxation to do it. They would have to put half-a-crown duty ou tea and threepence a pound on sugar. To the credit of the representatives of the Second Division, everyone of them agreed that a great deal had been done for them in the proposals of the Government, and they were pleased with a largo portion of the proposals. In the Budget it was estimated that there would be a balance this year of £1,200,000. Assuming we had a glorious year this year across the sea;-, and we came out most successfully, we could not expect to have more than one and a half million sterling—call it two million sterling. In this Bill they had proposals for at least three million pouuds over the amount of the expected balance this year. Kd members realise that tho Government was taking enormous burdens on its shoulders in doing what it admitted was necessary? No money value could compare with human life. That was, however, not the standard. They were engaged in stretching out tho* finances to the utmost limit they could go.

Continuing, Sir Joseph Ward stated

that if the House wanted to go further why did not members get up in the House and say they thev were prepared to impose this extra tax on every section of the community, in every electorate? (.Hear, hear.) If they did not, it lont colour to the suggestion that they were pandering to a section of the community

Mr McCombs: Von won't ask for it.

Sir Joseph Ward said Mr McCombs did not support the threepence tux on tea; ho was afraid he might, have to account to someone for it. Tho proper practical way for members to proceed was to put the taxation on a right footing, and then see how far the pensions and allowances might be added to.

.Mr Hindmarsh said the Finance Minister had cried "wolf so often that tho House was hardly likely to pay serious attention to his warnings now. He had misled them before. How did they know he was not misleading them a^ain? Sir Joseph "Ward denied that- ho had misled the House in any way, hut new conditions had arisen, and they had to be met. Mr T. A. H. Field urged a bettor allowance for children. Mr Payne criticised Sir Joseph Ward's statement-. A member of the Second Division deputation had reminded Mr Massov that ho had made a promise to send the last man and spend the last shilling, and that now that the lastman was being sent, would Mr Masscy spend the last shilling? MR. MASSEY'S VIEWS. The Prime Minister stated that he was not sure whether he was quite responsible for the statement about the last man and the last shilling, but he would accept it, and he said it again— we were prepared to find the last man and the last shilling. Thr4, he claimed, was tho fooling of the patriotic section of the community, but he was sorry to say it was not the feeling of somo members that evening. Tho Government had endeavoured to make every possible provision for the Second Division, which had been pleasod with the Government's proposals. Ministers had a tremendous responsibility in connexion with tho Second Division. He would not allow anyono to suggest that ho was doing anything unfair. He was doing his sharo as Prime Minister of this country, and intended to go on until the war came to an end.

Continuing, Mr Massey asked was anyone in that Chamber going to suggest that the peoplo of this country were going to be shirkers, or slackers, or_ quitters? "We aro not financial shirkers or slackers in any sense," ho said. The men who were most unfair in their demands on the country at present wero once the most persistent m stating that New Zealand had done her share in tho war. (Hear, hear, and .cries of "No.") No member was going to hold the pistol at his head or the head of any member of the Government. Somo members had signed a request to him for a general election. If they were not careful they would get it, but if an clcction were held it would take place on the new electoral boundaries. Ho hoped members would support the Government to enable the country to do its full duty. A serious change had recently taken place in the outlook, and he viewed the situation with a good deal of apprehension. If all these proposed increases were forced upon the Government, there must bo increased taxation. Where was it goins: to bo found? It would mean that they would have to fall back upon the Customs, combined -with .a reduction of the exemption under tho income-tax. He did not wish to resort to these methods, but the Government might be compelled to do so. Messrs Buddo, Ell and Forbes supported increases. After further discussion the first three clauses of the Bill wero passed, progress was reported, and the House rose at 1.5G a.m. LOCAL VIEWS OF NEW SCALE. As president of the Canterbury Patriotic Fund Society, Mr H. Holland, Mayor of Christchurch, informed a representative of "Tho Press" yesterday that time had not permitted him to do other than merely skim over the new scale of pensions and allowances, but ho thought that, upon the whole, tho Government had made very reasonable provision, and it ought to satisfy almost everyone. He had in his mind the case of a man with a wife and two children, and he found that under tho new scale they "would receive £3 3s per week; in addition, they would be entitled to receive assistance from tho Soldiers' Financial Assistance Board, which would bring their total income up to £4 3s. There were, he did not doubt, many cases to which these figures would apply, and that the total mentioned would be more than the reservist was receiving as a tradesman. The provision for pensions had been liberalised to a considerable extent, but he -would have liked, if it had been possible, to have made the new provision retrospective to married men already on active service. It seemed to him that the service of such men ought to bo worth as much as the service of the men who would go next year. The now scale, he anticipated, would relieve tho Patriotic Fund to a considerable extent, but there would still be many cases that would require assistance from that fund, such as the cases of married men with larger families than the scale provided for. Mr R. T. Tosswill, who has ha 4 considerable experience of the subject of soldiers' allowances during the three years he was secretary of tho Canterbury Patriotic Fund, said with regard to the new scalp of allowances tha-t it appeared to be based on wrong premises. Tho allowances ought to be graduated according to the earnings of the reservist during tho twelve months immediately preceding enlistment, otherwise an anomalous position -was created. It was possible that a considerable proportion of tho Second Division would consist of men whose earnings, prior to enlistment, did not exceed £3 per week, and these reservists could receive, with pay, proposed allowance, and from the Soldiers' Financial Assistance Board, a total of over £5 per week —an amount considerably in excess of what they were earning prior to enlistment. In other words, those men would be not only compensated for loss of income, but would bo receiving a bonus for being on active service. Mr Tosswill was prepared to admit that something beyond the amount of actual income earned by these men before bein<j called up was due to them, but he failed to see whv men earning higher incomes than £3 per week should not receive a proportionately higher payment when on active service. Men who, prior to being called un, earned more than £3 per week, especially those with children, would be in a less satisfactory financial position, and would be called upon to make greater sacrifices. Mr M. J. Grcsson, president of the Canterbury Second Division League, prefaced his references to the new scale by stating that as a conference of representatives of Second Division Leagues was sitting in Wellington, his remarks would be dependent on the result of the conference. He then went on to reply to the article in yesterday's "Press." but it is not necessary to report his remarks under this head, because they were evidently based on a misapprehension. A more careful perusal of the article will show that in deprecating "the intemperate advocacy of profuse allowances to the Second Division," we were referring not to the Sccond Division League, whose efforts we have supported, but

to the "irresponsible* writers in newspapers," and "irresponsible members of Parliament" who have been seeking to exploit the movement for their own advantage in the matter of popu-larity-hunting. Mr Gresson said that, taken all round, the scale of pensions and allowances was. speaking roughly, about half of the League's demands; though, in some cases the scale was more than half and in others less than half. It was very gratifying that in cases of total disablement, the Government's scheme was higher than tho League's, but the eases of total disablement would be a verv small proportion of those that would reqniro to be relieved. As to the allowance of children, he was of opinion that 10s 6d per child should be the irreducible minimum. A sum of ~s 6d per week was provided for the support of illegitimate children, and a child of a Second Division should be entitled to at- least 10s Gel per week.