HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Press, Volume L, Issue 8593, 21 September 1893, Page 6

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wednesday, September 20.

THE RAILWAY UILL. After the Telegraph Office closed, Mr SEDDON, iv continuing hia remarks, in replyiug ou the Railway Bill, said he was challenged to bring t!ie Chief Commissioner to the bar of the House. Why, they uighb a3 well bring the Inspector of Lunatic Aaylume and tliu Commissio.ier cf Tuxes to the bar when attacked. The Commiasiouers were the servants of the House, and they did not want to bring them to the House to explain matters to them. Ho declared that the House would not he doing its duty to the people oi New Zealand if it did not pass the Bill into law. The second reading wan carried on a division by 20 to 12. Tho following is the division list: — Ayea Messre Buick, Cadman, Carroll, Eurnshaw, Guinness, Hall-Jouee, Hogg, Joyce, J. Kelly, W. Kelly, Lawry, Macintosh, McGowan, C. H. Mills, Palmer, Parata, Saudford, Seddou, Shora, E. M. Smith. Noes (12) —Messrs Buchanan, Buckland, Carncross, Fish, Harkueas, Lake, Meredith, Moore, Rolleston, Sauudera, Swan, Wright. Pairs—Ayes: Messrs T. Thompson, Ward, O'Conor, Sir R. Stout, Messrs Eraser, Taylor, Houston, Willis, W. Hutchison, W. C. Smith, Oeo. Hutchison, H. Thotnpeon, Kapi, Duncan, J. MxjKenzie, Pinkerton, McLean, Tanner, Reeves. Noes: Messrs Mitchelson, Bruce, Wilson, Fieher, Richardson, Rhodes, Hamlin.Taipau, McGuire, Russell, Jas. Mill 3, fciir J. Hall,l)r. Newman, Meaare Duthie, M.J. S. Mackenzie, Valentine, Allen, B'ergua, T. Mackenzie. In reply to Mr Rolleaton, The PREMIER said he did not intend to take any other business till the Bill was out of the way. The committal of the Bill was made the first order for to-day. Tho House rose at 2.15 a.m. Wednesday, September 20. AFTERNOON SITTING. The K>.i,.so met at 2.30 p.m. am fish's statement. Mr FISH eaid as the Premier had stated that no other business would be proceeded with till the Government Railways Act Amendment Bill was disposed of, he should move the adjournment of the House in order to enable him to refer to the necessity of establishing a Committee of Inquiry with respect to the administration of the Lunatic Asylum Department. The SPEAKER ruled Mr Fish out of order in referring to questions on the Order Paper whilst speaking to the adjournment of the House.

Mr FISH then referred to the Government Railway Bill at some length, and contended that "the House would be perfectly justified in resisting to the very utmost the passing of such a Bill. He also referred to the Electoral Bill, and said the Government were notoriously iusiuoere over woman franchise, and that they had sent the Bill up to the Council secretly hoping and praying that the Council would object to the franchise. He said he had facts in his poseoßaiou, and he might be tempted to show them some day, which would prove to the House that the Government had been Suiity of the grossest political trickery over lis Bill, and would convince hon. members that Ministers were not fit to be trusted by them any longer. He referred to those candidates chosen by the Christchurch Liberal Association for the next election, aud strongly commented on what he regarded as the machinations of the Minister lor Labour iv throwing over such a faithful supporter aa Mr Taylor, one of the present numbers for Christchurch. It was also decided, he eaid, thab Mr Joyce was to be thrown over in favour of Mr Hoban, and Mr Tanner to be sacrificed to make room for Mr Loughrey. Then again, Mr Blake was to be a victim in order to make way for Mr George Russell, and there were people chosen by the Minister of Labour, who was a Liberal in disuuiso. They did not know what was to be done to Mr Earnshaw. but there were signs that in spite of the Government that gentleman would be nominated on the ticket. As for hia self (Mr Fish) if he did not come back to the House it would not break his heart, and he claimed to have been open, straightforward, and strictly honest in his opposition. It had been said that female franchise would prevent his return to the House, but threatened men live long, and he hoped every woman in this colony would show the present Government who had been guilty of the greatest treachery over the franchise, and who,.if they had their way, would prevent women from obtaining the franchise. Mr FRASER could not see what object Mr Fish hud in addressing the House on this occasion. The only reason must have been to show what a past master he himself wae in political insincerity and turpitude, of which he had accused the Government. They could find insincerity in several quarters, but nowhere so much as in the member for Dunedin.

Mr REEVES eaid Mr Fish appeared to him to find himself in the position of some one who had been left, and had therefore indulged in such abuse as they had just heard. He characterised Mr Fish's utterances with respect to what had taken place at Chriatchurch as utter nonseuse, and as totally untrne. He bad never heard Mr Hoban'a name mentioned for a political constituency, and as to Mr Loughrey'a candidature in opposition to Mr Tauuer, he hoped he would not stand, as he much preferred Mr Tanner, whom he would help so far as it lay in his power. He (Mr Reeves) had nothing whatever to do with Mr Collins or the selection by the Liberal Association, aud the only gentleman he was pledged to support was Mr Tanner. He also denied Mr Fish's statement with respect to Mr Russell being chosen by himself in opposition to Mr Blake, and said he had merely risen for the purpose of contradicting the extraordinary assertions made by Mr Fish with respect to himself.

Mr FISH said, notwithstanding what Mr Reeves had said, hie informant had stated that Messrs Reeves, Collins and Sandford were to be chosen for the city of Christchurch, and, as the House was aware, that portiou of the letter turned out to be correct. His informant had further stated lhat Messrs Taylor, Joyce and Tanner were to be thrown over by the Government. That it wae, of course, to be kept secret in case it came to those members' ears, and he was, therefore, justified in thinking the rest of Ins information to be correct as the former portion had turned out to be absolutely so. Xhe motion for adjournment was lost. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr E. M. Smith, Mr McKENZIK ai »id if emokeless locomotives could be constructed they would a °£ th tnousan ds of pounds to the colony ana ..he Government would be justified in offering a very high reward for their construe, ion. to Mr Hogg, Commissioner* promieed that the queation of reducing rates charged for. the ©oavey.

ance of sawn timber oa the railways should receive careful consideration.

Replying to Mr McGowan, Mr REEVES said the payment of school teachers was under the control ot the Education Boards, bat he should be glad to consider any scheme for the more equitable payment of salaries. Replying to Mr T. Mackenzie as to •whether the attention of the Minister of Education has been drawn to the serious loss that will accrue to the various Education Boards of the colony as a result of the epidemic of measles, and, if so, what action does he intend to take to recoup their loss,

Mr REEVES said that payment would be temporarily made on the working average, instead of the strict average, in order to meet the loss from this cause.

■ Replying to Sir J. Hall, Mr CADMAN said that 128,000 forms of claims to vote had already been sent out by the Government, and any members who desired a supply of them could obtain them by applying to him. A large number ot forms had been sent to che various Registrars of the colony for distribution. Replying to Mr Rolleston, Mr C A DM AN said he should arrange that electoral forma should be sent to ail Post Offices iv the colony.

Replying to Mr Bruce, Mr McKENZIE said the Government would favourably consider the question of removing the duty from coarse salt when the taiiff was being revised. am sandford's statement. Mr SANDFORD desired to state with respect to what Mr Fish had said that afternoon, that to his (Mr Sandford's) knowledge the Minister for Education had nothing whatever to do with the selection of the candidates for Christchnich. RAILWAY BILL. On the motion that the Government Railways Act Amendment Bill be committed, Mr ROLLESTON said that the Government were not doing right to force thii Bill on in this manner. The Bill required very careful cont-ideration acd the Government were not consulting their own interests nor the interests of the colony by forcing the Bill through iv the way they were doing. Captain RUSSELL said it was now a week since they were promised discussion on (Jolouel Fox's report, and probably the (rovetnment would now tell them whether that, report would be discussed that day or that day three months. Mr J. THOMPSON said he should support the Bill beeau-e he thought it necessary. The House should have some control of i he railways.

t Sir J. HALL expressed his regret that the Government should depart from the promise they gave that Colonel Fox's report would be considered before this, and he hoped they would have some definite assurance on this point. Also as to the date for bringing down the Public Works Statement. Mr BRUCE entered his final protest against ihe committal of the measure, which polluted the very springs of our national life. It was a Bill which no patriotic New Zealander should support.

Mr T. MACKENZIE said he had never heard of such a proposal as that the Government should suspend all other business till this Bill was disposed of, and he wished to ask whether the Government wished to hold tho Bill as a bludgeon before the Opposition. He asserted that the Public Works Statement had been purposely kept dangling before the eyes of hon. members till this Railway Bill was disposed of, and in order to coerce members into voting for it. Mr O'CONOR strongly supported the Bill, and said that Parliament, was completely iv the dark as to the proceedings of the Railway Commissioners.

Mr WARD said it was amusing to hear the Opposition accuse Government of a breach of faith. Why, the Premier had fixed the day for the discussion of Colonel Fox's report, and in the face of that Mr Roileston had come down with an amendment in the Government Railways Bill. As soon as the Bill was out of the way, the first business after it would be the discussion of Colonel Fox's report. He denied that the Government had broken faith in any way. The Public Works Statement would be laid on the table not later than 2.30 p.m. next day, provided that the Railway Bill was disposed of. He asserted that there was great necessity for the passing of this Bill.' The motion for committal was agreed to. Mr ROLLES ON said he did not desire to do anything in the shape of obstruction over this Bill. He recognised that he was in a minority in the House, but not in the country, over the Bill, Hβ should, however, move to add to the first clause to the effect that the term of office of the Commissioners should be for six years instead of five. That would extend their term of office for another year, and thus maintain the status quo.

Mr SEDDON said this amendment was virtually the same as that negatived last night, and he should ask the House to vote against it. After further discussion Mr Rolleston's amendment was lost by 34 to 20, and the clause passed.

The following is the division list:—

Ayes (20) —Messrs Allen, Buchanan, Buckland, Fergus, Fish, Sir J. Hail, Messrs Harkness, G. Hutchison, Lake, Meredith, Mitchelson, Moore, Dr. Newman, Messrs Rhodes, Roileston, Captain Russsll, Messrs Swan, Valentine, Wilson, Wright.

Noes (34) —Messrs Blake, Buick, Cadman, Carncrosa, Carroll, Dawson, Earnshaw, Fraser, Hall-Jones, Hogg, Houston. W. Hutchison, Joyce, J. Kelly, W. Kelly, Lawry, Mclutosh, McGuire, McGowan, J. McKeiizie, McLean, C. Mills, O'Conor, Palmer, Pinkerton, Reeves, Sandford, Sedilon, Shera, E. M. Smith, W. C. Smith, T. Thompson, Ward, Willis.

Pairs—Ayes—Messrs Richardson, Saunders, Bruce, T. Mackenzie, J. Milh, Duthie. Noes—Messrs Duncan, Taylor, Tanner, R. Thompson, Parata, Sir R. Stout.

In clause 3, a Minister for Railways was added to the Bill by 32 to 20.

Clause 4—Miuister to be ex-officio Commissioner without salary, in addition to three others.

Mr ROLLESTON objected to the deliberative and casting vote proposed to be exercised by the Minister. He proposed an amendment to strike out the portion of the clause that gave this power to the Minister.

Mr SEDDON said this was another attempt to kill the Bill, aud if it were carried the Bill would be useless. Proposals had been submitted to the Government to reduce the Commissioners to two, but if there were three, casting and deliberative votes for the Minister would be absolutely necessary.

Mr G. HUTCHISON moved a prior amendment to the effect that three other Commissioners should be appointed by the Governor-in-Council.

Mr McGOWAN suggested that there should be two Commissioners instead of three, and if the Minister accepted it he would move in that direction.

Mr SEDDON was not prepared to accept that amendment, as he thought three Commissioners were not too many. Mr G. HUTCHISON then said that as the Premier would not accept his amendment he should not press it. Mr Rolleston'a amendment was lost by 33 to 17. Following is the division list:— Ayes (33)— Messrs Blake, Buick, Cadman, Carncross, Carroll, Dawson, Earnshaw, Fraser, Hall-Jones, Hogg, Houston, W. Hutchison, Joyce, W. Kelly, Lawry, McIntosh, McGowan, J. McKenzie, McLean, Meredith, C. Mills, O'Conor, Palmer, Parata, Pinkerton, Sandford, Seddon, Shera, E. M. Smith, W. G Smith, T. Thompson, Ward, Willis. Noes (17)— Messrs Allen, Buchanan, Buckland, Fergus, Fish, Sir J. Hall, Messrs Harkness, Lake, M. J. S. Mackenzie, Mitcbelson, Moore, Rhodes, Rolle:lon, Captain Russell, Messrs Swan, Wilson, Wright. Pairs—-Ayes—Messrs Duncan, Taylor, Tanner, K. Thompson, Reeves, Kelly, Sir R. Stout. Noes—Messrs Richardson, Sannders, Bruce, T. Mackenzie, J. Mills, Valentine, Duthie. . ■ The House adjourned at 5.30 p.nu EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. RAILWAY BILL. Captain RUSSELL moved that the words "deliberative and casting" be ef.ruck out of the clause. He hoped the Premier would agree to this amendment. Mr SEDDON did not anticipate any trouble to arise from the Minister having the power of veto, and said it was the law at present, and was exercised by the Chief Commissioner. s Mr FISH moved that the Coairmaa leave

the chair. He said that the Premier had misled the House in his remarks. His opinion was that the Opposition should have contested this Bill clause by clause and inch by inch, and he felt sure that the country as a whole wonld applaud their action if they delayed its passing. He had been told that they relied on the Upper House to throw out the Bill, but he had also heard that several supporters of the Women's Franchise in the Council agreed to vote for this Bill on condition that the Premier did not send the Electoral Bill back to the Council.

Mr SEDDON said this statement was entirely unfounded. Mr MACKENZIE (Clutha) agreed that the Opposition should contest this Bill to the utmost. It meant simply handing the railways of the colony over to Mr Seddon, and political billets would be giveu to every hanger-on of the Government, and every man wiio did not bow to Mr Seddon would be dismissed.

Mr FERGUS pointed out that every Chamber of Commerce and every Farmers' Club in the colouy had strongly condemned handing over the railways to political control. He felt sure the Commissioners would not consent to occupy a subordinate position to the Premier, and they would lose the services of very able men in consequence. Captain RUSSELL could not consent to any stonewall as he believed the principle to be wrong. They had it ou authority of the Premier himself, who had great experience in that direction, that stonewalling was wrong. The Premier had repeatedly referred to the enormity of the Chief Commissioner having two votes and yet he proposed, under this Bill, to give himself two votes. After a very lengthy discussion the motion for leaving the chair was lost. A BREEZE. Mr THOMAS MACKENZIE, one of the tellers, refused to sign the division list at the Chairman's request on the ground that M.r O'Conor had ref ut>ed to walk into the division lobby. The Chairman asked Mr O'Conor for an explanation of ttie matter. Mr O'CONOR said he had passed into the lobby and out again before Mr McKenzie took his ssat at the division desk.

The CHAIRMAN asked Mr McKenzie to sign the division list aud he again refused.

The CHAIRMAN said then he would leave the chair for the purpose ox reporting Mr Mackenzie to the Speaker as disorderly. The Speaker took the chair, and Mr GUINNESS explained the circumstance to him.

Mr SEDDON said it was his painful duty to move—" That the member for Clutha be declared guilty of contempt, and dealt with accord iugiy." Mr MACKENZIE said it was a frequent practice for very great looseness to prevail when divisions were being taken. The member for Builer refused to pass into the lobby, and lie had refused to record his name. He had no desire to disobey the Chairman, but he asked for the Speaker's opinion. Mr FERGUS said, on a point of order, was it not the usual way for the member to be called on for an explanation before such a motion was made as that.moved by the Premier.

The SPEAKER said Mr Mackenzie was no doubt entitled to an explanation. Members should undoubtedly go into the loby, but the proper course for a member to take if this were not done was to report the matter to the Chairman. As the member for Clutha had stated he did not wish to dispute the ruling of the Chairman, probably the House would accept that assurance. . Mr MACKENZIE said he should submit to the ruling of the chair, and no doubt in future members would go into the lobbies on division.

Mr O'CONOR said he had gone into the lobby and out again. Mr Mackenzie theu came but befoie he came up his (Mr O'Conor's) name had been recorded by the other teller.

Mr HOGG, the.co-teller, said Mr O'Conor's statement was absolutely correct. Mr ROLLESTON rose to order, and said that aa Mr Mackenzie had submitted to the chair the matter was dose with.

Mr SEDDON said it was not done with. The member for Clutha had been declared guilty of contempt, but he should ask leave to withdraw his motion wit!) the object of moving thab Mr Mackenzie be ordered to sign the division list. Mr O'CONOR raissd a point of order as to whether, after a member had been guilty of disorderly conduct, the matter could be settled by his signing the list.

The SPEAKER said when the hon. member submitted himself to the chair he thought the proper course would be to lee the matter end.

Mr Wed don's original motion was then withdrawn, and he substituted for it "That the explanation of the member for Clutha be accepted a3 satisfactory, and that be be ordered to sign the division list."

Mr ROLL"ESTOjNT said that ifc was scarcely a generous motion to put on the records of the House, especially after a member had submitted himself to the Chair, and said »he had no desire to resist the ruling of the Chair. After further discussion Mr SEDDON said he desired to uphold the Chairman of Committees, and that being the caae he thought Mr Mackenzie should submit to the ruling of the Chair, and be requested to sign the division list. Mr Seddon's motion was then put and carried.

Mr Mackenzie was brought into the House by the Sergeant-at-Arma and informed by the Speaker of the resolution just passed. Mr Mackenzie then signed the division list and the House again went into Committee. IN COMMITTEE. Mr Fish's amendment was lost by 28 to 16. Captain Russell's amendment was then put and lost by 24 to 18, and the clause was carried by 24 to 19. Clause 5, tenure of office of Commissioners, Mr T. MACKENZIE moved to strike out the portion of the clause providing that the Commissioners could be suspended for inability, inefficiency, or mismanagement. He said he did so in order that they could obtain independent Commissioners, and spoke at some length on the amendment. Mr SEDDON said that when the next Government came into office they might fiud incompetent and inefficient Commissioners in office, and there would be no power to relieve them. He thought Mr Mackenzie had given good reasons for retaining the words he wished to strike out. After some discussion the amendment was lost on the voices, and the clause was addded to the Bill by 27 to 17. Clause 6—Salaries of Commissioners. Captain RUSSELL pointed out that if they were to have first-class Commissioners for Railways it was absolutely useless to offer £1000 per annum as salary. He would ask the Minister whether he could not insert some clause in the Bill by which the salary for Chief Commissioner should be £2000 a yeah Mr BRUCE was astonished at the Premier introducing a clause of this kind to remunerate a man at £1000 a year who would have to deal with fifteen millions of money. The whole thing was to him intolerable. Mr BUCHANAN said they would have to go outside the colony to get suitable men for this position, and £1000 a year was very inadequate remuneration. Mr SEDDON said the present Commissioners were satisfied with their salaries, and why, therefore, should they increase them? Would any member propose that the salaries of Messrs Maxwell and Hannay be increased ? He thought not ? Mr WRIGHT moved that the clause be strnck out. He deprecated the colony paying small salaries to experienced men. The Minister of Lands had told them that the colony ■was well rid of Mr C. Y. O'Connor, but his opinion was that they could dispense with half-a-dozen John McKenzies better than one C. Y. O'Connor.

Mr J. McKENZIE repeated what be had said about Mr O'Connor. He expressed the opinion that if anything happened to any of the Commissioners, they vrould be able to obtain another one in the colony who would be glad to take the position at £1000 a year. Mr SEDDON did not see why the name of Mr C. Y. O'Connor had been dragged into the discussion at ail. He bad left thy colony of his own accord; his grievance was not against the present Government, bnt against the late one, and he considered he snould have besn appointed Engineer-in-Chief. He regarded Mr Maxwell as one of the most competent officers in the colony and he only received £1000 a year. Mr RQLLESTON thought a great mis-

take had been made in getting rid of Mr O'Connor. He did hope Mr Mcßenzie would allow a man to go 3000 miles oft"without traduciug liia character in the way lie had done. The way the Minister for Lands had spoken of Mr Maxwell and Mr O'Connor was perfectly disgraceful. . .„ Sir J. HALL said it was very unjustifiable for the Minister to speak of a public servant as Mr McKenzie had spoken of Mr O'Connor. He held—and he spoke with some experience—that the colony ne possessed a better public servant than Mr O'Connor. A lengthy discussion ensued on this clause—the motioa that the Chairman leave the chair having been again proposed —and wae still proceeding when the telegraph office closed at 2 a.m.