IN FEW HOURS.

Auckland Star, Volume LXV, Issue 134, 8 June 1934, Page 8

IN FEW HOURS.

BODY INCINERATED.

DR. GILMOUR'S STORY.

EXPERIMENTS WITH SHEEP.

Experiments in burning a sheep in a 40-gallon petrol drum furnace, similar in every respect to the one which the Crown alleges Bayly used for the disposal of Lakey's body, were described in detail by Dr. Walter Gilmour, pathologist to the Auckland Hospital, late yesterday afternoon. He said he was convinced that it would be easier to burn a human body than a sheep.

Mr. Meredith: Have you conducted an experiment of burning?

Dr. Gilmour: Yes, we burned a ram. For a furnace, we used a petrol drum, with an opening at the bottom, measuring ]o.4in in height and 7.9 in across at the bottom and B.!)in at the top. It was similar in size and position to tho drum exhibited in Court. Two sheets of corrugated iron were ntood up tho sides and they enclosed about twothirds of the drum. They were of unequal heights, and secured by wire about the drum. Dr. Lynch and Dr. Kenneth MacGormick were also present that day—April 21 of this year. What about February IT? Who was there that day?— Dr. MacCormick and tho Government Analyst, Mr. K. M. Griffin. The sheets of corrugated iron on this occasion were of unequal height. "The animal we burnt was an old, fat ewe, weighing 11 stone 21b, with a thick covering of wool," said Dr. Gilmour. "We lit a fire with paper and wood and dead tree branches." Mr. Meredith: What wae done with the animal ? J ■ Dr. Gilmour: The ewe was killed by shooting. The lire was lit and the animal was placed in head first. In addition, a pair of gumboots with white , soles were placed in the drum. Ilow much tea-tree was used in the experiment? —-One sack of tea-ticc, weighing 841b. Completness of Destruction. No fuel was added to the lire aftci one and a half hours, said Dr. Gilmoui. "We watched the progress anil at the end of two hours and a quarter all the bones were burnt except a few pieces of vertebrae. At the end of three hours all "that, was left was a piece of stomach, heart and liver. The next morning nothing remained but calcine bone arid charcoal." Anything else? —Some of the wood was not burnt. These pieces were at the back, of the drum. They were partly charred. What was the residue left on top?— Charcqa 1 and burnt bone. Speaking scientifically, there was a tuft of hair unburnt. Would it be possible, as the result of your experiment, for a piece of hair to remain? Yes, the explanation would be that the hair had fallen to the bottom of the drum to the back so as to be in a position where no oxygen was available and it would not burn. Human Body Could Be Burned. Mr. Meredith: Could you give an opinion as to whether a human body could bo burned ? Dr. Gilmour: Oh, yes, from our observations with our experiments. It would bo obviously quite easy to burn a body. I will go further and say that a human body could be burnt more easily than an animal such as we burnt. My reason is that flesh and bones are easily burnt. The difficulty is only the internal organs. In the case of a sheep the internal organs are much larger than in the case of a man. In tlic case of the sheep there was a great mass of wet, undigested grass. Nothing comparable could bo found in a human stomach.

What was the calcine deposit like?— It was very similar to the bones we have here, except that they were more completely burned. Were the bones very similar to the bones exhibited here ? What size were they?— Variable, from dust upwards.

Were there any duplicate pieces of bono found on the Bayly property?— No, none. The pieces came from practically all parts of the human body— from the head, the arms, the thigh, the backbone and the foot. All the burnt bones were similar in appearance as regards the degree of burning. Some of the exhibits you sent on to Mr. Griffin, the Government Analyst?— Yes; I gave him several. Dr. Gilmour then gave the full details of these, the reading of which occupied some considerable time. Dr. Gilmour Cross-Examined. Mr. Leary began his cross-examination of Dr. Gilmour at 4.20 p.m. Mr. Leary: I gathered you read from a report about the burning experiment. Plow many experiments did you perform ? —Two. Why did you conduct two? Was one not a success?— Yes, it was. Have you the notes of the second?— Yes. May I have them?— Yes, here they are.

Where is the drum you used?—-We used two drum's. Ido not know where they are. . 1 understand my friend will bring them into Court? Mr. Meredith: Yes, I will be pleased

Mr. Leary: I suppose there are a number of bones that might be animal and that are burnt?— Yes, quite a few that I am able to affirm definitely. Can vou pick out any that might be animal that arc burnt?—ln class B there are none. Of course not? —Well there are none. Well, I would suggest you pick out a few, as in the morning I hope to show you some. Methods of Blood Tests. Vou commenced your evidence by telling us you tested various exhibits for blood. What did you use?—l used what is known as the benzidin test. In every case have you done the second of the tests as well as the first? —Yes. Are you sure? —Yes. On Bayly's trousers? Did you do the precipitin test 011 every spot to prove conclusively that it was blood? —Not in every case. Mr. Leary then showed witness Bayly's trousers and discussed with him tlio various stains on the garments. The benzidin test is not final?—Xo. You used the precipitin test 011 some stains? —Yes. There was not enough blood in the tiny stains to make the test separately. w IJave you the record of those tests? —Oh. yes. Will you bring them in the morning? —Yes. In addition to the benzidin test, there is a further test? —Yes. Blood may be divided into four classes? —Yes. This question has assumed very real importance through the question of blood transfusion? —Yes. Blood Transfusion Questions. Questions 011 blood transfusion were next asked by Mr. Leary. "I think, doctor, that if a knife is found with blood on it and the victim is discovered nearby, the blood of the victim and the blood on the knife can be grouped and compared?" Dr. Gilmour: Yes. You are aware of a journal known as the Medical, Legal and Criminological Review ?—Yes. There is an article on human blood groups, read before the Medical Society in February, 1933. I suppose you will agree that the proceedings of that body are worthy of some note? —Yes. After Mr. Leary had read several extracts concerning experiments in bloodstains and blood groups, the witness said he frankly did not believe what doctors had remarked in the passage read. From his own experience they must have been deceiving themselves. Have you ever given the matter much attention? —Yes, in quite a number of experiments, and I have got some erroneous results. Did you ever get correct results?— Yes. What percentage?—l did not record the percentage. Now, Mrs. Lakey's body was available '!—Yes. .She couM have been grouped? —Not, when I did the post-mortem. Blood which is beginning to putrefy does not react. That answer, I suggest, is purely at random. You don't know? —I do, and t can quote authorities to corroborate it. Argument Concerning Notes. The Court adjourned at 5.5 p.m., following an argument between Mr. Leary and Mr. Meredith concerning the notes of the second burning experiment, which Mr. Leary had been handed by Dr. Gilmour in the box.

Mr. Leary did not question the doctor on these notes, but placed the typewritten sheets on his table.

When the Court was about to adjourn Mr. Meredith raised the question of these notes and said that Mr. Leary must either question or cross-examine Dr. Gilmour on the notes or return them to him. He was not entitled to obtain possession of the notes and peruse them overnight and then decline to proceed further if he did not like their contents.

Finally Mr. Learv said lie had no objection to the notes being put in as evidence. Mr. Meredith stated he would do this and the notes -were then left with Mr. Leary to peruse.