MANY POINTS.

Auckland Star, Volume LXV, Issue 128, 1 June 1934, Page 8

MANY POINTS.

The question was a difficult one for Bayly to answer and you say he hesitated?— Yes,

Is that fair to Bayly? Did he not think for a moment? —Yes.

BLOOD AT BAYLY'S

VERY LITTLE FOUND

LONG CROSS-EXAMINATION

METHODS OF THE SEARCH.

Attracted by the anticipated crossexamination of Detective Sneddon by Mr. Northcroft, a small crowd of people gathered about the doors of the Supreme Court this morning, and when the trial continued both upstairs and downstairs public parts of the Court were well filled.

At the morning adjournment Bayly had a brief conference with his solicitor, Mr. R. B. Lusk, before ]ie went down the trap door in the dock for his morning smoke. He still appears to be suffering from the effects of a heavy cold.

In the course of cross-examination, Mr, Northcroft caused to Have shown to the jury several articles of Bayly's clothing which had been seized by the police, but which had not been produced by the Crown as exhibits.

Mr. Justice Herdman is presiding at the trial, and the Crown case is conducted by Mr. V. R. Meredith and Mr. F. McCarthy. Counsel for the defence are Mr. E. H. Northcroft and Mr. L. P. Leary, instructed by Mr. R. B. Lusk.

By mid-day to-day over 200 pages of depositions had been recorded.

It is anticipated that Detective Sneddon will be in the witness box for the remainder of the day. Even when his. cross-examination by Mr. Northcroft is completed, it is expected that the reexamination of witness by the Crown Prosecutor will take some time.

The Court will sit to-morrow morning, but not in the afternoon, nor will the hearing be continued on Monday, which, is being observed as the King's Birthday. When to-morrow morning's session is over the Court will adjourn ■until ten o'clock on Tuesday morning.

Mr Northcroft's cross-examination of Detective Sneddon was resumed this morning. Mr. Northcroft: I want to bring you back to the condition of Lakey's yard when you first saw it on the Monday afternoon. Excepting for the removal of the box this photograph represents a true position of the yard? You said a tub was not there? —Yes, the photograph was taken on October 19. Are you able to say positively that the tub was not there on Monday?— No. It may have been about the yard. I don't remember it under the tap.

Was the tap there? —If I remember rightly the pipe and tap has been raised. If you eaw it there, what height was the tap? —About six inches from the ground.

At the present time there is a tub sunken into the ground?— Yes, it was not there on October 16. One of the constables put it there. What was the receptacle under the tap for?—l don't recall anything there at all. No Money in House. In all your search of the Lakey's house yon found no money whatever? — No. There- was- a lady's handbag in the room, but there was no money. Was there anything else where money might have been? Any cashbox?—No. When did you first go to Bayly's place?—On Tuesday afternoon, October 17. -'~. When did you next go ?—On the morning of Thursday, October 19. On .the Friday, too?— No. You.w.ent again on Saturday?— Yes. On. each of those occasions how long ■wer.e you.there?— About an hour on the 17th,. about an hour on the 19th, and on the 21st about an hour and a half. Where did you meet Bayly on the Tuesday?—He had just come out of his car' and toolshed. At this time had yoii found the sledge marks I —No. Where did you meet him on October 19?— At the gate near the corner of his orchard. In answer to further questions witness said he remained talking for a few minutes near the gate. On the 21st Bayly had just arrived in his car. Bayly was told that they had a search warrant. The Telephone Pole. On. October 19 witness spoke to Bayly about the sledge marks near his boundary, and accused explained that when coming back with cream from the road he had. driven up on his sledge to have a look at the pole. Is this pole, in your judgment, overlooked by any of the neighbouring houses?— Yes, by one, Flett's house. His Honor: Is it not visible from Wright's?—l think it is possible. Mr. Northcroft: There is a substantial •xidge and I put it to you that the paddock with the pole is completely invisible to Wright's?—l could not bo definite. You asked Bayly if anyone had seen him going to the pole. You suspected Mm at the time. At the time you asked Mm you knew no one who could have possibljr seen him?— Any of the settlers that might have been about • could have seen him. \s ■ .. >>;-'

That was quite natural? —Yes. AA'cll. why comment on it? Did you think it suspicious?— Not exactly. Well, why did you bring it forward? — It was just part'of the conversation. His Honor: Even the smallest detail is important. Other Statements by Bayly. So you got some important statements' from Bayly that were not written?— Yes, there would be some ill the course of conversation. And you now say that these important points should have been put ill writing?—Y'es, it would have been better. Some of those conversations you put in writing, others, although important, you did not tell Bayly wore important, and you did not get statements from him ?—Yes. Witness, continuing, said the chief detective had on one occasion asked to see Bayly's hands. He had said that he had knocked some skin olf while working at fJcorge Furniss' on the Saturday. While working about machinery, it would be a common thing for a man to knock a bit of skin off his hands. The marks on Bayly's htfmls were consistent with having been caused on the Saturday. On October 19 they did not have a search warrant, but they had a look at Bayly's sledge and took three boards from it. Bayly made no objection. One of the boards had a stain on it, and it was taken for the purpose of finding out whether the stain was human blood, but the stain had not proved to be blood. Mr. Northcroft: Without a search warrant, you had no lights other than those Bayly conferred upon you? Detective Sneddon: That is so. Which was the most suspicious of the three boards? —They were all suspicious. Mr. Northcroft then showed to the jury one of the boards and referred the detective to several brown stains on it. The detective admitted that if they had taken the front board of the sledge there would have been little of the sledge left. That board had been in Bayly's possession for two or three days, and in the meantime no effort had been made to obliterate any marks.

Were you impressed by that circumstance ? It did not look like the action of a guilty man?—l was not impressed. On October 19 you questioned, him about his hat?— Yes. Mr. Northcroft then asked that some of Bayly's clothes should be produced. You drew his attention to what you thought was blood on his hat? —1 thought it might be blood or paint. You took the hat away and had it examined and found no blood, but paint on it?— Yes. He made no objection to your taking the hat?— No. On the 20th Bayly was away. What did you do that day ?—I searched the swamp at the foot of Bayly's property. Did you record that incident in your notebook ? —Yes. Notebooks As Exhibits. When Detective Sneddon was perusing his notebook, his Honor asked Mr. Northcroft if he desired the notebook to be put in as an exhibit. Mr. Northcroft: No, sir, I only wish him to refresh his memory from his notebook. Mr. Meredith: My friend had them put in as exhibits in the lower Court — His Honor: What right had they to be put in in the lower Court. Mr. Northcroft: Your Honor, the magistrate put them in. Mr. Meredith: At my friend's request. I objected, but my friend pressed the matter and the notebooks were put in as exhibits. Is there any other record of what swamps were searched that day?— No. On the 21st you executed a search warrant on Bayly's place?— Yes. That was on the application of someone to a J.P. ? —Yes, by the chief detective. "Will See the Point Shortly." His Honor: A lot of this crossexamination seems to be taking up time, Mr. Northcroft.' If I could see the point of it, I would not mind, but 1 fail to see where it is leading us. Mr. Northcroft: I am sorry that your Honor should say that. The crossexamination of Detective Sneddon has been given great thought, and I assure your Honor that it is all necessary. If you will bear with me, you will see the point of it shortly. No aspect of it is idle or thoughtless. Tf there is any point your Honor.would like to ask me in chambers, I would be happy to explain.

His Honor: Under those circumstances, I will take your assurance. Mr. Northcrof t: So on the 21st of October the police wore prepared to swear that they suspected Bayly? Detective Sneddon: Yes. Ami that clay you saw the longhandled shovel? —Xo. Who were in that party? —The chief detective, Allsopp, Findlny and myself. And do you swear that shovel was not seen that day?— Yes, 'nobody told mo anything about it. In answer to further question*, Detective Sneddon said he asVed to sec Bayly's clothes. When the search warrant was executed they looked at all his clothing and took some of it away. You took his working boots?— Yes. Were there any other working boots there?— Yes, gumboote. There is a piece of the sole cut off one of those boots?— Yes, I did not cut it. You admit the soles'of those "boots would make very characteristic footmarks?— Yes.

Bayly I was going to make a search. Bayly and the chief came in a few minutes a fterwards. Bayly was hi the house all the time of the search? —Yes. You know that in Bayly's absence. Mr. Furniss milked the cows for him? —Yes, when Bayly was in Auckland. Bayly had only just, returned from Auckland when you met him and tol.l him you had a search warrant?— Yes. You took Bayly's rifle?— Chief Detective Sweeney did. Will you show me where the bloodstain was?— What we took to bo a bloodstain. I coillcln'l say it exactly, I would only be "-upswing. You are an experienced police officer who parried out a search warrant. You should give us all (he information you can?-—f don't want to mislead the court. The stain was on the barrel. That's all you can tell us? You saw it. and you gave evidence-in-chief about it. and now you can't say within two or three inches where they were? T saw some stains, but I cannot say exactly where they wore. His Honor: You did not take a tapemoaeuro with you, I suppose? —No. I saw stains on'the barrel, hut I* could not say exactly where they were or how big they were. Called Bayly "Bill." You were on g 1 terms with Bayly and you called him "liill" ?— Yes. " Someone commented that he had new boards on I lie back of the sledge?— Yes quite a lot. Bayly replied, "You a have -M>t the others"?— Yes, he did. There was nothing in that. T suppose— it is a word often used?*-Yes. You had a conversation with liay'y and asked him if he knew anvth'imr about it?— No. I asked him if h' o had a pood look on his property, and he said he had. A\as there any o'Jlm- conversation ? Do you remember Dctectfve l'indlay saying, "They are getting u>> a special train load of unemployed"?— Something was said on October 23 about unemployed, but I don't remember anything about a special train. You asked him if he had his motor ear out?— Yes, between October 17 and 20. That proved, to be correct? —I was quite satisfied. You saw Bayly on the 25th, when he. complained about someone lolling about his place. Did he say a person might be hanging about to steal?— Tea. Did he say a man was there to plant nintcrinl on his place, or did he even hint at it?—Xo. Strange Motor Car ? • Under further cross-examination, Detective Sneddon said that before the shovel was scraped he saw small specks of what .appeared to be charcoal and burnt bone. Did you make any inquiries about a strange motor car in the district on the morning o< October 10? —Yes, I made many. Did you see a Mrs. Douglas ?—Yes. She said she saw a blue car like Bayly's car going from HlUitly to Ruawaro about 5 a.m. You saw her on November 2 in company with the chief detective? —Yes. She said it was a blue ear like Bayly's an'd that she was positive about it? — Yes. You noted in your book that you had some doubt about it being Bayly?—Yes, from what her employer told me. Now she was positive it was a car, yet you set aside that it might be Bayly's?—-Y'es. Therefore you discredited Mrs. Douglas? —No. Did you ask anyone else?— Yes. Who? — George Furniss and Mr. Curran. But was Furniss'out at that time? — He said he was on that road about 0 o'clock that morning, and he said he did not see any car marks on the road. 1 also saw Curran, who was driving cattle on the road. But that was at six o'clock, an hour after Mrs. Douglas had se'en the car? — T also saw other people about the car. Who? —Mr. Wright. He was up early milking. On November 3 Superintendent Till and Commissioner Wohlmann arrived end addressed the staff. How many were there at the time? —About 20. Mr. Northcroft: And there had been editorial comments in the Auckland papers about that time about crimes that had not been tracked down by the police. Detective Sneddon: I did not have time to read the newspapers. I was too busy looking for Sam Lakey. The newspaper men were very energetic about this time and they were there every day ?—About every other day. I was not interested in the .papers or the pressmen. Farms Overlooking Bayly's. What farms overlooked Bayly's cowshed? —Herbert's on the eastern side. How far away? —Straight across the lake. As you come along the ridge the next place is occupied by Mr. Richards? That place is nearer "than Herbert's?—lt might be.

Yon know before you conducted the pcjuvh how Bayly was drcseed on the Sunday. MY. Calvert told you?— Yes, .' j in his working clothes. Ho wns wearing an oilskin and leg- ' gings?—Yes. They were examined for bloodstains and lump were found? —That's so. Did you find another oilskin coat? —' Xo. Did you ask him if ho had another ' oili-kin '.'--Xo. You took the mats out of Bayly's car ' on t ho 21st?—Y'es, but wo- found no WomlstiVllr:. You took a piece of cloth for expert ' exainination whidi showed that murks J foiiiul wove not blood. ] \ on iilsn took a cardigan for cxiiuiiii.i- ' lion, fa 1 vert did not tell you Bayly was i wear ing a cardigan, did iic?—The chief ' detective look the cardigan. i < The Only Traces of Blood. I . Witness admitted that nothing of an i incriminating nature was found on ( articles of clothing taken that day, f except the blue (ieiiiins. ; -Mr. Xorthcrofl: The .small spots of blood on life (Icniins ami the very email i I smears on his sledge wore the only t traces of human blood found at any I time during the searches on Bayly's 1 phu-e?—Yes. ' * | Yon have said Bayly appeared to be' sui-pri.sed when he could not llml the ammunition?—He made out he was Mir- ! prwed. I Wlml is your justilicatioti for saying ' that? Why say that he pretended? ° ' His Honor: He did not say "ore-' tended." ' 1 Mr. XorUicrofi: What makes you think ho Wilt* surpri ■ 1?— I thought it: ' was strange that the. cartridges had disappeared. So did Bayly. \mv there any- i thing that justifies the comment that : it was a pretence?—Xo. t .After questioning Detective Sneddon as to who was in charge of the inves- j ligation, .Mr. Xortheroft remarked that ' he could nnt understand from the wit- 1 ness who was in charge. .< '"Whose ease was it. in the sense of 1 the police officer? Was it yours?" asked s Mr. Xortheroft. ' j "Xo." said Detective Sneddon. ' ( Then whoso case was it? Can it be : said that it was nobody's case —? Mr. Meredith: This is most unfair. , It is perfectly well known that there were 30 or 40 police officers operating ( all over the country under the dilec- ] tion of the police chiefs. ] Mr. Xortheroft: I want to have this clearly. I expected that from Delee- , live Sneddon, who says he was in ] charge at the start, that wo would get the proper course of events. There is nothing unfair about it' I want to . know, and it may be of importance to , ] tile defence to know, who was in charge E of the case at various times. \ ( TTis Honor: If you r>ilt the questions [ fairly you will get tho proper answers, I I snnpose. . ' < Witness said thnt Inspector Hollis and Inspector Rawle were camped at j Riißwnro, i Where did Inspector Rawle come 5 from?—Xcw Plymouth. He came about ( November 12 or 13 and stayed till about s the middle of December. Was lie in charge?—Xo, Inspector ■ j Hollis. Inspector Rawle was assisting, i They arrived together. Inspector Hoi- ' , lie was in charge from the time he ■> arrived until the end. i The pea-rifle cartridges that went F missing from Bayly's separator room — j what part did you take in the efforts | to find them ? —T searched round Bayly's ; , property, but no other. T did not make ) any inquiries from anybody else. Did anybody elr=c? —I could not say. j You know that witnesses have .=aid , Lakey wore .about his cowehed black ; gnmboots with white soles?— Yes. ! ( Were they common?—l should say; thev were common. ; | Some importance has l>een attached ! to this type of boot because of some- ; ■ tiling similar beinir found ae the result of a fire at Bayly's?—Yes. j And you do not remember anv neirrh- , hours wonrinjr boots of that type?— No. , I had not thought of them. i , Mr. Northcroft showed witness a pair ; of prumboots to Bayly and pointed out that they were black with white soles. Details of the Search. ? To Mr. Northcroft witness said he v searched Bayly's house and car shed, ' but did not himself inspect the cow- ° 6'hod and separator room. I Was it a thorough search?— No. I 1 Well, why search if it was not F thorough?— The chief detective was in charge. > . You searched tho waslihouso ? What . l did you find? —The coat, trousers, 1 sheath and belt and a shirt. P Did you search the fire grate of the \ copper ?—Yes. 1 The copper was in its place?— Yes. i° Was Bayly there ? —Yes, he kept going in and ofit with his wife. You met him in the car at the gate, s then you accompanied him to the car j and toolshcd, -where you obtained a 1; statement from him about the sledge, | then, went to the car and searched it? n Where did you go then? —I left Bayly p with the chief detective and told Sirs. ! 11

Well it ie, a quarter of a mile. Whoso is the next place?—A sharemilkcr's place. The cowshed at Flett's is nearer to Bayly's shed than the house?— Yes. Are there any more on that side? — No. Well, what about the other side?— Well, of course, the nearest is Mr. Mmitclowe's ijlnce. Is there a farm occupied by Grime and Hodgson on the ridge, looking down on the cowshed? —Yes, on an angle. Inquiries About Smoke. ( an you tell me what inquiries were made from various people as to whether they saw smoke from Bayly's cowshed: , —J was not much in ituawaro after Bayly was arrested. Nu inquiries were made about smoke being seen until December? —Not that 1 know of. l.ut you would know of what was going on. You attended conference!* when the Ituawaro matter was discussed. Do you not know if inquiries were made from residents ag to whether they saw smoke?— No. What inquiries did you make? —I saw people at Dobson and Grime's house. \\ hen '! —Since the lower Court proceedings. Oil, I see. Could you tell whether tthey had been asked previously? —No. Who told you to go and make the inquiry? —No one. I was interested, and just went myself. Who else did you sec? —I saw Herbert about December 17. Whii directed you to interrogate Herbert? —1 did it of my own initiative. Did you tell your seniors about it? — No. Did you discuss it with Inspector Mollis ?--No. His Honor: What does it matter whether he spoke to Inspector Hollis about it? He is quite entitled to. Mr. Northcroft: I am not asking him anything that he is not entitled to say. His Honor: Well, why badger him with all these questions? Mr. Northcroft: With all respect, it is not badgering, and the questions are necessary. Who else did you see about, the smoke? — .Mr. Henderson on the road to Herbert's place. When?- 'bout December 10. He saw none?--He said he was busy with his cows. Who else did you see?—A man named Mackay. Did you see Flett? —No, because he told me early in October that he was busyt with his cows. Mr.'Northcroft: You and Detective Allsopp went to Bayly's place on November 14 and you got Mr. Allsopp to engage Bayly in conversation while you looked for the drum? —Yes. I had a look near the separator room for it. It was found two days later? —Yes. The bottom of th'j drum was then produced and witness showed the jury where Detective Allsopp scraped deposits from the drum. Did you sec a pile of material which came from the drum when it was tipped over? —Yes, but we only took one sample. The Court then adjourned for lunch.