HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Auckland Star, Volume XXX, Issue 212, 7 September 1899, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

ANOTHER DISCURSIVE DEBATE,

A feature in yesterday afternoon's proceedings in the House was tho unusually small number of petitions presented. Some discussion took place on the Waste Lands Committee's report on the petition of one Monk, praying for n reduction in a re-valuation of his land, which he represented as havingbeen over-valued for taxation, though of inferior quality. An attempt was made by a few of the Left Wing' anct the extreme Opposition to create the impression that the report of the Comxnitee which was adverse to the petitioner's desire had been in some way improperly. influenced by the Lands Department; but this was emphatically denied by the Acting-Minister of Lands (Mr Hall-Jones) and1 by the Premier, who said there ivaa no deSire on the part of the Government to burke inquiry. Ultimately the report was referred back to the Committee for reconsideration.

THE PARLIAMENTARY LIBRARY,

The report of the Parliamentary Library Committee (which has already been telegraphed to the "Star") ■was. read by the Clerk.

The Premier rose to a question of privilege, pointing- out that a breach of privilege had been committed by the Wellington evening' journal in publishing and commenting upon the report before it was actualy laid before Parliament.

Mr Guinness created some laughter when he reminded the House that the report had'been laid on the i.nble of the Legislative Council six days ago.

The matter then dropped.

THE YOUNG NEW ZEALAND PARTY.

Mr McNab moved that the report be referred back to the Committee for re-consideration with a recommendation that efforts should be made to secure a chief librarian in this colony before inviting applicants in England. He said it was too much the fashion for public bodies and others to go Home for persons to fill importaut positions. Mr Guinness also complained of the practice of overlooking local talent in tilling public positions, and said that evenin such trifling- matters as the choice of superintendent of a fire bri-g-aclc a man was introduced from the neighbouring colony.

Mr Scobie Mackenzie said the positiorr^of chief librarian of a library like that in the Parliamentary building-s required a combination of special qualities as well as experience, which Mr James did not possess, however zealous and courteous he may have been in the position of Acting-Chief

Librarian,

Mr Hogg made a strong claim on behalf of the young' New Zealand party to recognition in appointments of this character.

The Premier said it was generally conceded that the present Acting-Chief Librarian was not competent to fill the position of chief. He therefore asked the House to pass a simple resolution authorising applications being invited for the position in New Zealand, Australia and Great Britain, at a salary of £400. If the report were referred back to the Committee it would only cause unnecessary delay. However, the Government was willing to postpone the final appointment until next session. Mr Taylor declared it was a case of "No New Zealander need apply." Why, he asked, should not a New Zsalander "be sent to England or America to be trained for the position? He ventured to say there were many women in the colony competent for the position. "To be logical, let its import a Ministry, lock, stock and barrel," said Tommy. "Was New Zealand capable of producing efficient legislators? Capt, Russell: "No." This emphatic reply seemed to stagger Mr Taylor for the moment, but quickly pulling himself together, he retorted, "The hon. member for Hawke's Bay should speak for himself."

Then followed Mr Fisher (Wellington City), and the discussion assumed the more palatable form of addresses to the electors.

t Mr Rollcston, however, raised the debate above the mere parochial level. He said, "If the choice of a chief librarian was to be made in the colony, lie would support the appointment of Mr James. However, he believed the Committee adopted the right course, the matter being of a technical nature. Though he had the highest respect for Mr James he did not think he would be the right, man in the right place as chief librarian."

Capt. Eussell said he had listened in vain for any evidence that the gentleman who had under exceptional difficulties discharged the duties of the position of chief librarian for some years was unfit for the office. He did not believe in the motto, "New Zea]anders for the New Zealanders." He approved of free trade in intellect as jn other things, but there was the alternative between the course recommended by the Committeeand appointing some one in the colony. It was no reflection upon the intellect of New Zealand to say that in the chief centres of civilisation and of vitality of thought and literary talent they were likely to secure a more competent librarian than in tlie colony. He thought, however, that the salary of £400 would not attract a first class pian. No scholar of any eminence would be willing to sacrifice his prospects in the great centres of thought for such remuneration. In his opinion the library staff had never had a fair opportunity of efficiently performing their duties, and he would be disposed to give them another chance with the conveniences they would have in the new building. Then if they failed it would be time to invite applications in England for the posijj r Gilfedder (Wallace)" said that a,

perusal of last j'ear's Hansard showed that several members who had spoken to-day were special pleaders for Mr James. He said the salary of £400 was a compromise arranged by the Committee, the original proposal aaviug- been to recommend that , the amount be £500, but in the former case the passag-e money and expenses were to be added. On the whole he did not think Mr James had, during the time lie had tilled the position of Acting-Chief Librarian, shown himself qualified for the permanent appointment.

Mr Doug-las McLean (himself a Nevv Zealander and the son of one of Nevv

Zealand's distinguished colonists) delivered v moderate and sensible speech bringing back the House to the practical side of the question instead of the sentimental. He pointed out that with the exception of the present assistant librarian none of the members of the Library Staff are New Zcalanders. He thought the question was not solely one, of literary ability, but largely of experience, and this eonld only be got. in the great seats of learning- at Home.

Mr Crowther could not see that thcrp was anything in the Committee's report, which would preclude Mr James from applying- for the position through the Agent-General if he desired to do so. The recommendations made by the Committee were the result of careful and sincere consideration o.f the whole circumstances. That being- the case he would support the report of the Library Committee.

The motion for the adoption of the report was negatived by 39 to 9 and the amendment that the report be referred back to the Committee, with a recommendation that efforts should be made to obtain the services of a Chief Librarian in the colony before inviting- applications in England, was agreed to. Young New Zealand therefore scored.

The House adjourned at 5.30

11113 LOAN BILL

When the House resumed at hajfpast seven o'clock it went into committee immediately on the Aid to Public Works and land Settlement Act, 1899.

Mr Rolleston at once opened an attack upon the Government on the old lines, demanding- that the details of the proposed expenditure on Public Works should be brought down before proceeding- any further with the Bill.

The Premier replied that the course suggested would be unprecedented.

Mr Montgomery wanted to know whether the committee could alter the schedules attached to the Bill, but

Mr Guinness, who is seldom caught napping, naively replied that he would give his ruling- on the question when any amendment was moved.

Mr Rolleston, returning to his mutton, reiterated his objections, and to put himself right moved to report progress acd ask leave to sit again.

'-'Ik; Premier declared there was no precedent for the demand that was now made. In reply to Mr Wason, he said he would take tlie items in the schedule separately, but even if the schedule were passed in its present form he could not spend a sing-le shilling- of the money until the General Estimates were passed. Ttoe House would have three opportunities of reviewing- the proposed expenditure— firstly, in considering- the General Estimates; secondly, in the Public Estimates; and thirdly, in dealing with the Railways An isation Bill. If it would facilitate busi .-ss he would ask the Chairman to rule as to whether the schedule could be altered.

The Chairman of Committees (Mr Guinness) said it appeared to be the wish of the committee that he should g-ive his ruling- in order to save discussion. The custom was to appeal to the Chairman on points of order as they arose, but as the Minister in charge of the Bill, representing* the Crown, had asked whether the items could be put separately he (Mr Guinness) would rule that they could be so put, and that they could be struck out.

Mr Taylor was still unsatisfied, and wanted every detail of the work set out and the cost bracketed with it.

Mr Moore (Kaiapol) followed suit

Mr Dnthie signified Ins intention, as soon as the motion to report progress was.got out of the way, to move that the Bill be withdrawn pending the passage of the Railways Authorisation Bill.

The Premier quoted from the official sources to show that previous administrations had not followed the course now advocated. "Now," said the Premier, "here is a schedule of a Loan Bill—("What year?") for Public Works, Immigration and Purchase of Native Lands and defraying the costs and charges and expenses of raising a loan (one item alone), £3,740,000; Lyttelton Harbour Works, £100,000; Redeeming Guaranteed Debentures, £300,000; for purposes hereafter to be declared by any Act of the General Assembly, £300,000." In those days, continued the Premier, they did not give details. ("Quote the date." Another little item, one word, and that word was "allotted," and there was a tremendous sum of money passed. These were the particulars given in the good old days when the present Opposition was on the Government benches. ("No no; the Grey Government.") After the year 1886, when the Stout-Vogel Government was in power, was the only time that any particulars were given. ("No, 1888.") The troubles that this led to in giving particulars of Loan Bills caused them to see the error of their ways, and the consequence was that the Estimates were not in accordance with the schedule to the Loan Act. (Mr Fraser: "Two blacks don't make a white.") The swindle on the North, who raised a loan for the North Island Main Trunk railway under one Act and applied the money to different purposes under another Act? The Goc'ernment which filched from the North Island Main Trunk railway the money voted for it, and applied it to the purchase of native lands and constructing roads was the Atkinson Government. (Mr Monk: "They took part of it and ißallance took the rest.") The money was scheduled for the North Island Main Trunk railway,, but the Atkinson Government took it when they came into office. The Stout-Vogel Government raised the money under the Loan Bill and the Atkinson Government came in and took it away from the Public Works Estimates. The House would have the allocation of the money and further supervision in passing the Railways Authorisation Bill. Thus, the^ matter was wholly under the control of the House. He urged the committee to pass the clauses of the Loan Bill and then deal with the schedule. As he had been challenged as to his- asking that the Loan Bill should have priority of the Public Works Estimates he pronosed to show from the official records of former years the course that hnd been adopted by previous Ministers. On the 9th December, 1879, a

Loan Bill was passed for £5,000,000, but it was not until the 6th August, 1880, that the schedule was given. The Public Works Statement, showing how the money was spent, was not passed until tliree years later. He challenged the Opposition lo prove the contrary. The loan was raised by the Grey Government, but the Hall Government spent it. The schedule to the present Loan Bill was not an appropriation. He would reiterate what lie had already said, that the schedule to the Bill was not worth the ink with which it was printed. The only reason it was there at all was to keep faith with the money lender, who expected that the money would be spent on the objects enumerated in the schedule. Last year the Government expended £910,000 on public works, of which £425,000 was transferred from the Consolidated Fund.. The fact that the colony defrayed half of the amount in that way wa calculated to secure the confidence of investors in our bonds. As regards the expenditure of the loan money, unless the Government got the necessary appropriation it. was of no value, and the Controller-General could not touch the money. Referring to other cases in which loan Bills had been passed before the Estimates were brought down, he showed that under a former administration the Loan Act was passed on the 7th of June and the Public Works Statement was not laid before Parliament till the Kith of August. In IS9O power was given to raise money, but the Public Works Statement was not brought down until nearly twelve months later, though the whole of the mouey voted and earmarked for the North Island 'Main Trunk railway was filched away. Members were now clamouring' for particulars of a sum of £ 300,000 for railways included in the schedule to the present Bill. In one case the Act merely stated that power was given to the colony's agent to borrow and raise in England or elsewhere by bonds, debentures, scrip, or otherwise, siich sum or sums not exceeding' one million. No, schedule was appended. Former Administrations had spent money without the authority of Parliament and afterwards asked Parliament to legalise their wrong1 doing". If the Opposition could demand the details of the proposed expenditure on railways why not also on lands? (Mr Wason: "That is a different matter.") The Opposition only agreed to what suited themselves. He challenged the Opposition to show a single example where a, Government brought down its Public Works Estimates before its ways and means were provided. ("Yes. in ISS7.") That was money previously authorised to be raised for works twelve months in advance. There had been ten Loan Bills, and only about two contained any schedule. (Mr Buchanan: "Three.") Well, three out of ten. Since 1889 no Loan Bill had been passed containing any schedule, lie deprecated the Opposition making a demand which had the effect of blocking- the Bill. Was it fair, asked the Premier, that after he had given a promise to bring- down the Puulic Works Statement during the present week the Opposition should seek to embarrass him iv passing the Loan Bill? The circumstances would justify him in withdrawing that promise, but he appealed to the Opposition to pass the Bill in order to pave the way for the Public Works Statement.

Mr Crowther strongly advocated justice to Auckland, declaring- that if the Premier would promise to complete the line to Kawa.kawa and the Bast Road in two years lie would come back next session ;is a supporter of the present Government. The Premier said it was the intention of the Government to carry out the work in question. He had already said that the North Island Main Trunk line would receive precedence. Mr Massey preferred the claims of the Awakino route. While he endorsed the principle of borrowing- for reproductive works he objected to entrusting- the expenditure of a lump sum of £300,000 to the Premier. He hoped the schedule would either be amended or struck out.

The committee divided on the motion to report progress, which was negatived by 33 votes to 24. The House then adjourned for supper. The House resumed in committee of the whole on the Loan Bill Clause 1, short title, was passed without amending. Tn Clause 2 the Colonial Treasurer may raise one million and may prescribe the mode and conditions of repayment of the sum raised and some discussion took place on the question of short or long dated debentures. Captain Russell expressing strong disapproval of the latter. He moved to add a proviso to the effect that the time for repayment shall not exceed 30 years from the date of issue of the debentures, scrip or stock. The amendment was negatived on a division by 31 votes to 22.

Clause 2 was then agreed to without amendment.

On Clause 3. until the lonn is raised, short-dated debentures may be issued, Mr Moore moved, o substitute three and a-half per cent, as the rate of merest, in lieu of four per cent.

The Premier pointed out that, the wording in the clause was "Not exceeding- four per cent, per annum," the margin being allowed in order to meet the case of stringency in the money market caused by war or other contingency. The amendment was negatived on the voices and the clause passed as amended.

i Clause 4 to 13 inclusive also passed ! without alteration. On Clause 14, Sub-section 3, "Any of tlie aforesaid j moneys appropriated to specific: roads !or bridges may from tame to time be paid over in whole or in part to the local authority in whose district the works are situate," Captain* Russell expressed his belief that if the expenditure were in all cases entrusted to the local authorities it would result in one-third more results being achieved in the construction of works. He suggested that he word ".Shall" should be substituted for "may" so ns to make the payment to local bodies compulsory instead of discretionary. The clause was passed as printed as also the remaining Clause 15. v KAWAKAWA-GRAHAMSTOWN. When the schedule was gone on with, the Premier referring to the ; first item, Kawakawa-Grahamstown '• in reply to Mr Smith, said the cost of completion would be £20,000, but the work would result in improved shipping facilities, would attract foreign as well as New Zealand vessels, and assist in the development of the coal resources of Whangarei.

Mr Montgomery said if the items in the schedule were passed it might be implied that the country was irrevocably committed to the construcion of the work, he therefore moved to strike out the item—Kawakawa-Grahams-town.

Mr.R. Thompson supported the item, urging the advantages of the proposed extension in providing- access to deep water and supplying' a profitable outlet for the products of the district. At present the Kawakawa line was one of the most prolitable in the coJony. During- the discussion some amusement was caused by a colloquy between the member for Patea and the Premier. The former was thirsting for information relating to the Kawa-kawa-Grahamsrown line. The Premier handed him a rough sketch drawn on a sheet of note paper, and George, with that, dramatic air which he so well knows how to assume, flourished the document aloft remarking', "this is the information on which we are asked to vote £20,000," which of course brought down the House. «

Mr Crowther made a strong- appeal on behalf of the line.

Capt. Russell said as he and other members were in complete ig-norance as to the need for the new lines included in the schedule, he would suggest that the whole of the schedule should be held over until further information of a definite character was available. For his own part, havingbeen up all night, he felt disposed to retire to his virtuous couch, by which means he would secure two results, recuperate his strength, and avoid the use of strong language incidental tq, late sitting's. (Laughter),

Mr Tanner, who confessed that he derived his information from some of the piles of Auckland petitions which usually monopolised attention of the Petitions Committee, endeavoured to shed some geographical light on the subject, but lie contrived to get bushed almost at the outset, and abandoned the attempt.

Mr llcke supported the item

Mr Smith (Christchurch) and M"r Slig-o (Dunedin) sought to instruct the Auckland members on the local locality through which the line will pass.

Mr Taylor, referring- to the line, said the Premier had supplied him with some valuable information. lie proceeded with mock gravity to fish out of his trouser pocket a scrap of paper which he said was not drawn to any scale, showed bad spelling, bore no date, and was addressed to nobody in particular. Upon the strength of this he declared his intention of voting' against the line.

Mr Douglas McLean inveighed against the (one of levity which marked the discussion.

At one o'clock this morningl Capt Russell moved to report progress.

The Chairman hnving ruled he would not be in order in moving- to excise the entire schedule Mr Holland made plucky effort to get the item passed, but was shouted down by occupants of the front Opposition benches.

The motion to report prgress was defeated on division by 27 to 23. On the motion that the KnwaVawnGrahamstown railway stand piirt of the schedule, another division took place, resulting1 in the item being' retained by 29 to I.'!. WAI HI-PAEROA RAILWAY. On the item Pacroa-Waihi railway, Mr Smith, who had announced his determination to fight every item of the schedule, called for a division, which resulted in the retention of the vote by 32 votes to 11. GrSBORNE-KARAKA LINE. Mr Montgomery opposed this item, and the Premier made out a <jood ease in its favour.

This item, as well as the Helensville Northwards, was agreed to on the voices.

NORTH ISLAND TRUNK RAILWAY,

Referring- to a remark by Mr Lang (Waikato) complaining of the conditions of the North Island Main Trunk Line, the Premier stigmatised the lion, member as being- "one of the worst enemies Auckland ever had." "J thought you'd say that," retorted Waikato. THE SCHEDULE PASSED. The remainder of the schedule passed without amendment. The Bill was reported to the House, and and the third reading fixed for Thursday evening.

The House adjourned at 3.20 a.m