DEBATE IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Auckland Star, Volume XXIV, Issue 222, 19 September 1893, Page 2

DEBATE IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

ALLEGED MISMANAGEMENT,

SOME SERIOUS CHARGES.

(BJ TELEGRAPH—PARLIAMENTARY

BEPORTER.)

Wellington, this day.

Though no formal recognition has been W»de of the Hon. Mr Rolleston'a amendment to the second reading of the Government Railways Bill being a vote of noconfidence in tho Ministry, the debate in recognised as one of greab importance', and members are nearly all bent upon making set speeches for the purpose of placing their views upon record. When bhe House met at 2.30 p.m., Mr Sandford, who moved the adjournment at the lasb sibbing, gob up to resume the debate. He aoon made it abundantly clear that he was strongly in favour of the Bill, and that ha based his support upon defects of the existing management. He wenb into figures in great detail to prove thab the Commissioners had unduly

INCREASED THE OFFICIAL STAFF and also their salaries, while the number °f workmen bad been largely decreased, thai) promotions had been made on other principles than those of merit, and thab the management generally had been wasteful and detrimental to the interests of settlement and industry on account of high rates for carriage of goods and passengers. As an example of the costly system of circumlocution, he said that- if anything was required from a railway store, n messonger was sent to the storeman, who passed on the meaaage to the foreman, who told the leading band, who told the man who handed over the article wanted. He argued that State railwayn should bo under full control of the pooplo, bhrougli Ministers and Parliament;. SOME INTERESTING FIGURES. The following telling statistics bearing on the Commissioners' management were quoted by Mr Sandford in the course of his eiisoch. The maintenance staiT on the working railways was, he said, muuo up as follows: —The Auckland section of 265 miles bad farce inspectors, one foreman of works, one bridge inspector, 33 gangers, and 104 men, or less than three men bo each officer. The Napier soction of 328 miles bad four inspectors, two foremen of works, ono bridge inspector, 52 gangers and 158 men, being about 2£ men to each officer. The Wellington section of 91 miles had 17 foramen and other officers to 47 men, or less than threo men to each officer. The Hurunui-Blufl section of 1,100 miles had 11 inspectors, three foremen of works, four bridge inspectors, and 160 gangers to '190 men, or three men to each officer.

TOO MANY OFFICERS. Comparing tho number in fcho railway service now with the numbers in the railways in 1892 bo found thab while there had baon an incroaso of three officers, the number of man in the traffic department had decreased by 20, in the maintenance department by 368, and in the locomotive dopartmont by 81. Thorawao a total docrease of 169 in tho man, while the number of officer** had been increased. Tho figure? showed bhabtha service was distinctly ovorstafied. There were now twenty-ono more officers at) £200 a yoar and over than there were in 1889. Ot these, two recsivod £800 and upwards, four received from £500 to £600; five from £300 bo £400, and ten from £SJOO to £300. Ab to promotion and increases o£ salaries those were evidently not mado according to merit, bub by private influence to an extent that never prevailed under tho political arrangement. Ho quoted instances of increases of from £50 to £165 c year, and said that a study of tho namos of the poreons nnd the position they held would prove

A PERFECT REVELATION

to members. For example, there was a

third-class dranghtsman made actingraaidenb engineer, with hia salary raised from £130 bo £250, a second-clans clerk was made auditor witb a £70 increaßO of salary, an improver was made relieving officer with an increase of £90, and an apprentice at £39 a yoar was promoted to the position of locomotive foreman at £203 a year. The latter must have been promoted over tlie heads of more deserving and experienced men. According to the regular scale of promotion, a dozen officers ought to have received increases ot £25 each, bub the facts wero thab 115 hod received additions to salaries, 8 of such increases being £100 to £164, and 21 between £50 nnd £100. Jle v/eniv on to quote a return with regard co the TRAVELLING ALLOWANCES of railway officers, showing that 19 officials in roooipt of £220 a year and upwards bad ] iv bhree years receivod £9,113 as travelling allowances, being at the rate ot £47 each for three years, or £142 a year. Mr Sa;idford paid he could go on quoting those figures till members were sick. Mr B-ieklaud : We are sick now. Mr Sandford : I am glad to hear ib.

WHAT EMPLOYEES THINK OF ITSpeaking further on the Railway Bill, Mr Sandford said ho had heard a good deal about wbab the Chamber of Commerce &>>d gentlemen of the Conservative party thought of bho Commissioners' management, bub very little had been heard of what the railway employees thought of ib. Ho wenb on to quote an opinion communicated to him by a railway servant, though quite independent of bho Society of Railway Servants. This documenb stated thab vaguo promises and assurances given to railway servants in the paab had ended in their condition gobting worse and worse. The Act appointing tho Commissioners wns to prove a panacea for all their grievances, bub it bad proved a whip of noorpionß. The various clauses in bhab Act relating to omployees wero openly-evaded, and would continue to bo evaded as long as bho provisions wero of a vaguo and general character.

DEFINITE PROVISIONS WERE REQUIRED.

The scale of wages in force should be posted in conspicuous places at each rail-

way centre, the Commissioners should nob have power to alter the scale of wage without consenb of Parliament. Only written reports against employees should be considered, and before punishments were awarded, the employees in question should 'be furnished with all reports on their case for further defei.es. If necessary, all employees should have a righb of appeal to an impartial Board of Enquiry. All appointmentsshould be open to competitive examination, and amployeos should have power to request to be examined for the same, the results of such examinations to be published in the "Gazette." The HOURS OF LABOUR should bo fixed ab eighb daily or forty-eighi per week for continuous work, or nine hours daily and fifty-four per week for intermittenb work. The head of the locomotive departmenb should be held responsible for the better keeping of faith with employees. There should be means taken to prevent gross favouritism in appointments and promotions. _As things wero at present the Kions of influential families wero appointed |»b unremunerativo salaries wibhoub being in a remote degree qualified for the position. The men had no faibh in bhe present management, and were convinced thab an Investigation would nob only prove their

complaints were well founded, bub would lead to a speedy change in the personnel of

SOME HIGH OFFICIALS,

Unfairly treated as they were, tho men claimed part of the credit for efficient, safe and economical working of the railways, but thoy state that if their grievances were redressed they would evince still greater assiduity in the performance of their duties, and general discipline would in no way suffer. MR MITCHELSON IN REPLY. The Hon. Mitchelsoo took up the debate on the Opposition side, repeating to a large extent the arguments employed by his leader, such as thab the Premier's speech was nothing but an electioneering appeal to bhe people of the colony, and that the Commissioners deserved the gratitude of the community for having saved ib from a great injury by their firm action during the' maritime strike. He dissented entirely from the provision of the Bill which proposed to make

A MINISTER CHIEF COMMISSIONER with deliberative and casting votes. He suggested that the Minister should be content with a scab on the Board, so as to keep Parliament in touch with the Commissioners, bub should nob have power to practically control the Board. He would be prepared if thab compromise were adopted bo Bupporb tho Bill, and ho hoped bhe Government would accept thut measure of reform.—The member for the Peninsula, who had of lato been disposed to act as a candid friend of the Government, began by saying the Premier had done himself justice in his speech in moving the socond reading, as this was a subject he knew him to be thoroughly conversant with. Mr Eanisbaw went on to say this was a question quite

ABOVE PARLIAMENTARY POLITICS and involved a great constitutional principle. He quoted a number of authorities on the question of control of Departments of State, and said he had failed to find any authority in England or America in favour of a system of bureaucratic absolution such as prevailed in tho case of the railways of New Zealand. While he intended to support tho measure now before the House, he regretted thab the Goveminerib bad not takeu tha proper course of simply repealing the existing Railway Act. (" Hoar, hear.") Had that course boen taken and the question referred to the constituencies, he was confident the verdict would have been against tho system of control by Commiasioiior*. He conbradicted the statement made by Mr Mitchelson thab the railways and bridges were now in a superior condition to what they woro whon tho Commissioners took office, inserting thab many bridges wero absolutely unsafe. In every colony where management by ComruiaBiouers had been introduced tho result had boon lavish expenditure and general inelliciency. He quoted the experience of New South Wales and Victoria, and roferred to the news jusb received from Melbourne showing bhab bhe Commissioners bhore reported a doticib for the year of £345,000.

PRAISE FROM MANUKA.U. Mr Euckland was nob stinted in his praise of the Commissioners and their works. He reminded the Houae of the time that used to be occupied in the House by trivial questions rotating to railway affairs, when our railways were in tho hauds of tho Government before the advent of tho much maligned Commissioners. That waste became so unbearable, said Manukau, thab both Sir Robevb .Stoub and Sir Julius Vogol had to put ib down with a strong hand. He then instanced the benefits tho Commissioners had conferred on tho settlors in Waikato by reducing freights and faros, and he maintained thab a vory large majority of tanners and others throughout Auckland province were in favour of tho prosonb regime. As to the Comraipsioners1 mauAgomonb of tho entire railways of the colony, whab hotter certificate wa3 there than litio fact of

INCREASED INCOME AND DBHN

ISHED EXPENDITURE,

When tho House resumed ab 7.30, Mr Fish book up tho subjecb and assumed the role of a judicial and impartial critic. He was partly in favour of tho Bill, lor he hold it to bo i\ sound principle thab in all State concerns the State itsolf should have fall control, bub there were exceptional'cases in which it inighb be advisable to doparb from that principlo, and part with the control of its own business. Tho Houae should nob concern itself with the detail question of whether the management of the preaonb Commissioners was good or bad. It had to deal with a matter of principlo, and "hould consider (1) Whether tho State should part with tho control of the railways; (2) whether such separation should bo complete or partial; and (3) if partial what should bo the basis of control 1 He was strongly of opinion thab control of the railways should be brought into closer touch with Parliament than ab present, bub he objector! to absolute control being given to a Minister as tvaa proposed by bhia Bill. If a M'aisfcer was to have power of this kind there was no need for three highly paid Commissioners. This question was of such importance that it should nob bo decided by a moribund Pariiamanb, bub should be

REFERRED TO THE PEOPLE ab bho comiDg genoral elections. A vory large number of railway men were in accord with feho Commissioners, said Dunedin's member, and whatevor ill-feeling there might bo existing in the large shops ili was fomented by mon who found ib to their profit to stir up discontent. The Commissioners had nob, he belioved, refused to liatan to any jusb complaint of tho men.— Messrs Tanner and others took loave to differ from Mr Fish on this poinb, but ho very speedily talked them down. "Oh, yes, wo know, we, us and Company, the three tailors of Tooloy - street over again," cried he, and his opponents gavo up the futile attempt to make their dissent known. There had been no complaints bo speak of thab had nob been heard by the Commissioners and dealt with in v reasonable manner. A great cause of complain b on the parb of bhe mou was that)*they had no means of making their desires and wants directly known to the authorities at headquarters, and it was a just cause, too, tor Mr Fish know thab before the grievances of the men had been filtered through a mass of red tapeinm, thoy no longer retained their original shape, ao thab the views of the workers were really

NEVER REPRESENTED CORRECTLY bo those who had ib in their powor to alber mattore for their benefit. For thafe reason, Mr Fish believed in a Board before whom the men mighb lay their grievances and make their wants and wishes known. He next proceeded to strongly discountenance the idea of the Premier taking up the position of a third Commissioner. Of course, everybody know thab the Premier, and none but he, wbb to be the "ruler of the Queen's Navee." With a humorous affectation of anxiety for Mr Seddon's health, Mr Fish pointed out that ib was cruel and unjuab that the Premier should have further duties thrust on him. "What a calamity," he cried, " would ib be if the Premier nhould take on himself the idea of leaving his earthly tenement," bub apart from considerabion for Mr Seddon's wellbeing, consideration for the well - being of country moved Mr Fish to condemn the assumption of the post of head Commissioner by the honourable gentleman ab the head of the Government. Tbe duties of Premiership were quite enough for any man if he fulfilled them thoroughly, and when ib was considered bhab Mr Seddon had nob only taken theee duties on himself bub had combined id himself the

Minister of Defence, Minister of Public Works, and Native Minister, ib wbb clear that in the interests of the country he should nob attempt further work. Dunedin a member having sang tho praisee of the Commissioners, took up the Bill to examine it clause by clause. If the Government, he said, had proposed merely to give a seat on the Board of Commissioners to one ot the Ministers he would not have opposed them, bub rather than supporb the measure as ib stood he would vote for repeal of tho Acb of 1887, by which tho Commissioners came into power. Ib was useloss to speak of amending the Bill in Committee, it must bo recast. A VOICE FROM TARANAKI. The voice of E. M. Smith from Taranaki was nest heard, with grandiloquenb disregard of aspirates, supporting the Railway Bill. No measure that had over come before that House meb with his heartier support. In concluding a speech strongly in Favour of the Bill he said that the Oppositionists were threatening to obstruct the passage of this measure, bub he warned them that those on tho Government side of the House would show as much backbone in fighting for the Bill aR the etonewallers could possibly show against it.

IN FAVOUR OF THE COMMIS SIONERS.

Mr Puthie began by picking oub faults* or apparent faults, in tho speechesof Government supporters, and criticising them in his rapid, jerky style. He maintained thab there was no disoontent amongst the employees. They did not desire the Bill, and if they did ib was the duty of mombers to save them from themselves, for he was persuaded that once the Government got tho railways into their hands again half of the present employees would find themselves deprived of their billets to make room for Government supporters, Referring to the management of railways prior to the time the Commissioners took charge tho member for Wellington described it as a period ripe with jobbery in railway matters, and he expressed a sincere hope that the present system might be continued.

A LEGAL ASPECT. Before Hutchison the younger hid spokon many sentences, it was clear that he had prepared a speech, and when George prepares, he is often worth listening to. On tho present occasion he managed to strike out on a track somewhat different; from that followed by his immediate predecessors. Ho liked Mr ltolleston's amendment, but thought it impracticable. Tho Act of ISB7 was an experimental measure. It was not intended when it was passed that the present regime should go ou for over. There was no power given in thab Act for the appointment of new Commissioners when tho term of engagement of tho prcsonb (jontlemen expired. They might, of course, consent to an extension of their time, but if they did nob there would bo nothing for ib bub bo return to the Act of 1877. Tf there was to be any new legislation on the question, it was necessary thab it should be effected thab season, for the Commissioners engagumont terminated in January. The real question mombors had to considor wus whether they were prepared to fjo back to the old ordor of things. If they wore not then they must considor what new course was to be adopted. With Waitotara, tho chief objection to tho Commissioners was the fact thab thoy had vory lnr&je aamo at their disposal. It was nob tolerable that thros-quarters of a million of public money should bo completely BEYOND CONTROL OF PARLIAMENT. It was wholly unconstitutional, ho considered, that the Commissioners should have absolute power over ono-tuird of our revenue. Coming to complaints which had boen made by employees, ho only undertook to (spook of thoso which emanated from his own district, and which ho had helped to forward. These complaints he could nay had been persistently ignored, and whatever might bo said to tho contr&vy, ha believed tbab discontent with tho present system was universal. If the com- j plainte ware nob bo opon as might be oxpacted, thu reason was that tho mon knew thab coniplainb would havo been followed by repression. Things were in a bad atato altogether, Mr Hutchiaon's speech wont to show, and he concluded that legislation was absolutely nccossary this session. A LITERARY CRITICISM.... Dr. JTcwmaa quoted Macaulay, and wa* generally literary in hia allusions. Ho too* up arms for the Commissioners bravolyi and warned the Premier that) ho abould bo ' careful that be did nob lay himself open to a libol action by his attack on these gentlemen.—ltangitiksi Bruce had boen

AMONG THE WORKERS. Ho led the House to infer tho opiniou he had found current among bhe lower grade 11 ; was that it was most undesirable thao tue railways should be under political controlIb was bhe vory lasb bhing they wished" The Bill was a hybrid meatmre, | which Mr Bruce would havo nothing to do with.— Mr Hogg dwelb long on unintoroatiug details, valuable perhaps > if tbo House had had all tho circumstances ! iof tho capes quoted before them, bnb stiill | tedious. One after another, he instanced I casaa of settlers who had sufferod through the railway uianagomenb of the Commissioners, lie knew thab tho opinion all over New Zealand was that the present system ot railway management should bo revolutionised. Hift only faulb with t!io Bill wns that ib did nob go far enough, but he would support: ib as the best thing offered.—-Mr Wright was by no means prepared to en-1 dorse all the Commissioners did. Ho had I hia griovancos against them, bub as ho did | not) consider bhab the present Bill was at all calculated to redress the grievances, he wou Id not wnpnorb it. In a lengthy speech, showing extensive knowlod^e of the sub jeet, he examined into tho general etfoctaof I the Commissioners' administration, and de-1 fended them from many of the inuumorabio charges which have been brought againsb them. • AMENDMENTS WANTED. Mr Buick declared his intention of voting ; for the Bill if it was amended in Com» i mittee iv certain directions which ho indicated. As it stood, he thought the measure wenb too far. He believed thab tho Premier would tno«i adequately fill tho position of third Commissioner, but he was strongly opposed to tho power of veto, and said that ".Mb were retained do would go against tho measure. Unlike many on his side of the House ho had no fault to tind with the management of bho Commissioners, bat ho was of opinion that the suecees of our railways was much more dependent on the general prosperity of tho colony chan on the men who exercised control over them.—Mr Buchanan stood firmly by tho Commissioners, repelling the Pramior'e charges againab them an UTTERLY GROUNDLESS. He denied that Mr McKerrow had accepted hia present position under protest. Ho deuiod that there was any waste of public money in granting protracted leave of absence to officers and sending them Home. Only by that means could we hope to keep abreast with the latost improvements iv railway management. As for the Bill, ho was against ib as a whole, though he would not object to certain changes in our railway system. He would be quite willing thab a Minister should have a scab on bhe Bourd, bub not that he should exercise the exronded tho powets given him by tho measure.— That veteran of the House, Mr daunders, made his attitude towards the measure as clear as day. It was

A MISCHIEVOUS MEASURE from _ start to conclusion. Ib would substitute a political, changing, uninformed control for the experienced

guidance of a body of men who had made railway management their Btudy. For his part, rather than thab the Bill should paSB he would eeo tho present Acb repealed, and Ministers boldly assume the charge of the railways. If the Bill was carried bhsre was no alternative for the Commissioners but to resign.