MR. PARNELL'S REPLY TO MR. FORSTER.

New Zealand Tablet, Volume XI, Issue 2, 4 May 1883, Page 19

MR. PARNELL'S REPLY TO MR. FORSTER.

Mb. Pa knell, who was receive 1 with loud and continued Irish cheers, said — I wish to intervene for & very short while and ~T6ry limited extent in this debate. I can assure the House — and I may venture to make the assurance with the greatest possible respect, although some people may think it not a very respectful assurance to make, but still Intake it with the greatest possible respect — I can asßure the House that, it is not from any belief that anything I can say, or wish to say at this time, will have the slightest effect on the public opinion of the House (loud Irish cheers), or upon the public opinion of this country (renewed Irish cheers). I have been accustomed during my political life to rely upon the public opinion of those whom I have desired to help (loud Irish cheers), and with whose aid I have worked for the cause of prosperity and freedom in Ireland (great Irish cheering) : and the utmost that I desire to do in the very few words which I shall address to this House is to make my position clear to the Irish people at home and abroad (great Irish cheering) from the unjust aspersions which have been cast upon me by a man who ought to be ashamed to devote (cries of Ob, oh, and Irish cheers, — who ought to be ashamed, I say, to devote his high ability to the task of traducing them (loud Irish cheers'). I don't, wish to reply to tbe questions of the right honourable gentleman (cries of Ob, oh, and Irish cheers). 1 consider that he has' no right to question me (Irish cheers), standing, as he does, in a position very little better than an informerwith regard to the secrets of the men with whom he was associated, and he has not even the pretext of that remarkable informer whose proceedings we have lately heard of. He had not even the pretext of that miserable man that he was attempting to- save bis own life (Irish cheers). No, sir ; other motives of less importance seem to have weighed with the right hon. gentle* man in the extraordinary course which he has adopted on the present occasion of going out of his way to collect together a series of extracts — perhaps, nine or ten in number — out of a number of speeches — many hundreds and perhaps thousands— delivered during the land movement by other people,* and not by me, upon which to found an accusation against me for what has been said and done by others (Loud Irish cheers). If the right hon. gentleman had even been accurate in his quotations there might have been some excuse in it ; but unfortunately upon this occasion also he had displayed the same remarkable ignorance as to matters of factin connection with Irish affairs, as he displayed during his tenure of office a 9 Chief Secretary for Ireland (hear, hear/ and cheers). He has charged me with the responsibility for writings in the Irish World. Sir, I suppose that if there is one newspaper that I differ with more than another, that I have read less of, than I have studied less, it is the Irish World. The right honourable gentleman appears to have been studying the Irish World very closely during the progress of this land movement (laughter), and if he considered that the articles of that newspaper incited, or were likely to produce crime in Ireland, why did he not exercise the power, the common law power, which he subsequently e\ercised, and refuse to allow that newspaper to circulate in Ireland? (Irish cheers). What is tbe difference between the responsibility of the right hon- gentleman who read these articles, and who believed what their tenour and result would be, and who refused to take the responsibility of preventing their circulation amongst the peasantry, and the man who never read the articles which are now brought up as an accusation against me, because, indeed, Mr. Patrick Ford, in his office in Brooklyn, or in New York, chooses to direct his newspaper for the purpose of destroying, or attempting to destroy, the move* ment which we have been so carefully building up in Ireland? (Irish cheers). Mr. Patrick Ford's aims and objects and programme are not my aims and objects and (Irish cheers), although they may be much nearer the aims and objects which the late Chief Secretary appeared desirous to bring about (loud Irish cheers). I have bad very little time to look into the speech of the right hon. gentleman and to arrange the different accusations which he has made against me in order, but I think another of his grand" points was that which he has made, not against me, but against my hon. friend the member for Mallow and the editor of United Ireland, for some paragraphs which appeared in that journal. He asked me, " Does the member for Cork approve of the articles in United Ireland T " and I nodded my head. I supposed that the right hon. gentleman alluded to the articles that appeared in United Ireland either before or since my imprisonment ; but what was my surprise to find after he had gone further that he was alluding to some paragraphs in that newspaper at the time when my hon. friend the member for Mallow, the responsible editor — and, recollect, the editor responsible in the eyes of the law — when he and myself, together with the majority of the Btuff, were in prison (loud Irish cheers), when we were denied the privilege of seeing a single copy of that newspaper, when it was utterly

Impossible, so close was the watch kept by the gaolers of the right hon. gentleman, who fulfilled their trusts well and faithfully, as I know, though attempts to throw doubts upon their faithfulness have been made. So closely were we watched that it was perfectly impossible to obtain a copy of that paper, and taking advantage, recollect—and this is what makes his conduct so guilty, and it is this conduct which marked his career when he was Chief Secretary — and taking advantage of the ignorance of the members of this House on Irish affairs— taking advantage of the prejudices which prevail in this country against Ireland — and, of course, there are always reasons for prejudice when one nation attempts the impossible task of governing another— talcing advantage of the trials in Dublin, when so many men will have to face the tribunal constituted by the Crimes Act for the purpose of deciding whether they shall live or die— taking advantage of all the unprecedented and extraordinary circumstances which surround us at the present time — the right hon. gentleman selects writings and incidents such as these for the purpose of found* ing an accusation againßt me, and making me responsible for the works of others. And, furthermore, be is not only guilty of sins of commission,— he is guilty of suppression also (Irish cheers). Not only the suggest™ falti but the tuggestio veri is applicable' to his speech (Irish cheers). The heading of these paragraphs was, I believe, " Incidents of the Campaign," but the very moment my hon. friend the member for Mallow was released from prison and resumed control of hig paper, that very moment the heading disappeared (Irish cheers). It is, I say, infamons and shocking that we should have such accusations made against us in this House for acts over which we could not by any possibility have the sl'ghtest control (great Irish cheering). Now, Ido not propose to accept the rather indecent invitation which has been held out to me to discuss the recent proceedings in Dublin (bear, hear). I have been asked to give an explanation with regard to matters which have been put in evidence at the preliminary investigation at Kilmainham. The right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary, who is a lawyer of great eminence and ability, rebuked the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Dublin for asking him to go into these matters (hear, hear), and expressly declined to go into them. The right hon. gentleman, however, shortly afterwards loudly applauded the subsequent speech of his hon. friend when he invited me to go into these matters, and not only loudly applauded, but rolled on his seat in ecstacy (hear, hear, and Irish cheers). I don't want to refer to the evidence which is now being given before the courts of Dublin, but as that evidence has been by the Dublin correspondents of the London papers garbled in the most extraordinary way, I will just refer so far as to state what the evidence actually was — I mean the evidence which is supposed to throw suspicion on some members of the Land League — as having connected them with these terrible assassinations in the Phoenix Park (hear, hear). Now, sir, the statements that were made in that direction were made by the approver Carey. There is no need to comment upon that fact by saying that they were statements not of fact, but of belief. They are three in number. Firstly, Carey swore that he had met a person in the garb of a priest, that he was introduced to him as Father Murphy, and that this man informed him (Carey) that he was going down into the country to form a branch of the Invincible organisation. Carey then said that he was afterwards informed, but he did not say by whom, that this Father Murphy was Mr. Sheridan of Tubbercurry. Secondly, Carey swore that some amongst his comrades believed the money came from America, but others believed it came from the Land League. This, again, the House would bear in mind, was only a statement of belief, and the House will acquit me of any desire to comment on this evidence. I simply quote it to show what the evidence really was, and I am perfectly satisfied to allow the Honse to draw its own conclusions (Irish cheers). Thirdly, Carey swore that a woman, whom he was informed was Mrs. Frank Byrne, wife of the secretary of the English Land Confederation, brought him weapons. That, too. is hearsay evidence. I wish to point out again that all these statements of Carey's would not have been admissible in an ordinary case, and would not have been admitted were it not that this was a case of conspiracy, and were it not that he bad sworn that he heard these statements made by some amongst the prisoners who were charged with being participators in the 1 conspiracy (Irish cheers). That evidence, I say again, was hearsay evidence ; and, so far as we have gone, the third statement, that the woman who brought the weapons was Mrs. Frank Byrne, has been abundantly disproved, for when Mrs. Byrne was brought over for identification Carey failed to identify her, and she was discharged with profuse apologies (Irish cheers). The second and the other statements— namely, with regard to the •ource from which the money came — seems to rest on what was said by his comrades, and which lam perfectly willing to admit, and which I believe to be true — that some of these men got cheques for the support of their families from the Sustentation Fond while in prison. Those cheques, it is right to tell the House, were sent to hundreds of the families of prisoners throughout the country. It was the ordinary custom of the managers of the Sustentation Fund to give money to the families of all prisoners, and very often it was given to the prisoners themselves, and it was given because the families of the prisoners were deprived of the ordinary means of support by the imprisonment of the bread-winner; and I believe evidence will be produced to show that Edward M'Caffrey, one of the prisoners, actually sent back his cheque to the Ladies' Land JF^gue, and told them that he did not belong to the Land League, •Sat he did not sympathise with their objects, and that he did nothing that would entitle him to support out of the Sustentation Fund. And yet the fact that the Ladies' Land League sent these men cheques, in common with hundreds of other suspects throughs out Ireland, has been put forward as implicating us in a grave suspicion of having found money for the purpose of committing the Pooenix Park murders (Irish cheers). Now, sir, with regard to Mr. Sheridan. A statement has been made, and very extensively circulated in the English newspapers, that I offeied the services of Mr. Sheridan to the English Government for the purpose of patting down

outrages in the west of Ireland, and considered- him s fit person lot the work because he knew all the details .of these outrages. This statement is based upon a celebrated Government memoranda, which the right hon. gentleman states he famished to his colleagues, and which they were in f nil possession of at the time when they decided upon our release (hear, hear from Irish members.) But it is right to point out for the information of the English public that the right hon. gentleman is directly contradicted with regard to that Government memoranda and the statements upon which it is based by my hon. friend the member for Clare (hear, hear). My hon. friend the member for Clare wrote to all the London newspapers on the 18th May— that was, I think, the day following the publication of the Cabinet secret (Irish cheers) by the right hon. gentleman the member for Bradford—" The following are the facts. I myself know nothing about the organisation of the Land League, but I told Mr. Forster that I had been informed by Mr. Parnell the day before that if the arrears question were settled that organisation wonld explain the boon to the people, and tell them that they ought to assist the operation of the remedial measure in the tranquillising of the country. I added that Mr. Parnell had expressed his belief that Messrs. Davitt, Egan, Sheridan, and Boyton would use all their exertions, if placed, in a position to do so, to advance the pacification of the country, and that Mr. Sheridan's influence was of special importance in the West, owing to the fact that he had been the chief Land League organiser in Connaught, while Mr. Boyton had held a similar appointment in Leinster. Upon these points," he concluded, " I kce<7 no more and I said no more' (Irish cheers). So that we at once come to this that a question of grave dispute with regard to a matter of fact has arisen between the right hon. gentleman the member for Bradford and the hon. and gallant member for Clare (hear, hear). Now, sir, it is a very remarkable thing that the right hon. gentleman should not have mentioned those other names (Irish cheers)* in his Cabinet memoranda.

Mr. Forster — They were not mentioned to me (" Oh," from the Irish members.)

Captain O'Shea rose amidst cries of " order " from the Minis* terial benches, on which the hon. and gallant gentleman sat down, but there being cries of "O'Shea, O'Shea," he rose and walked hurriedly out of the House as if to obtain jsome document, a movementwhich provoked amusement.

Mr. Parnell— Mr. Davitt wa9 released immediately afterwards owingto the representations which were made by the hon. memberfor Clare. Why was Mr. Davitc's name not included in this Cabinet memoranda 7 (Irish cheers.) Why was Mr. Boyton's name not in included in this Cabinet memoranda? (Renewed cheers.) who had left Ireland immediately after his release' and who, it was known, could not return to Ireland without being arrested 1 Why was Mr. Egan's name not included in the Cabinet memoranda? (Irish cheers.) Why was it that Mr. Sheridan's name was selected for the purpose of attempting to make out that I was privy (Irish cheers) — that I was privy to and knew of some connection of Mr. Sheridan's with outrage or attempted outrage? (Hear hear, from the Irish members.) Sir, I leave these questions to be answered by Irish members who may have a better knowledge with regard to what actually passed than I have. I hope, however, their significance will be considered and pondered on by the House. The right hon. gentleman has asked me to defend myself. Sir, I have nothing to defend myself for (loud Irish cheers). The right hon', gentleman has confessed that he attempted to obtain — (here Captain O'Shea wa3 observed re-entering the House with an open copy of Hansard) — a declaration or public promise from me which would have had the effect, if given, of discrediting me with the Irish people (Irish cheers). He has admitted that he failed in that attempt (loud Irish cheers), and failing in that attempt he lost' his own position (cheers). He boasted last night that he had deposed me from some imaginary position which he was pleased to assign to me, but at least I have this consolation — that he also deposed himself (renewed Irish cheers). We both fell into the ditch, and Ido not think that in the process of pulling the right hon. gentleman and myself out of the ditch I have suffered quite so much in the opinion of my countrymen as the right hon. gentleman has suffered in the opinion of his countrymen (prolonged Irish cheers). If the right hon. gentleman has deposed me from my position as a permanent Irish politician, I admit that he has been very successful in that. I have taken very little part in Irish politics since my release from Kilmainbam. I expressed my reason for that upon the passing of the Crimes Act. I said that in my judgment th<s Crimes Act would result in such a state of affairs that between Government and the secret societies it would be impossible for constitutional agitation to exist in Ireland (b«ar, hear, from the Irish members.) I believe so still (hear, hear). And what is the item of news which was published in the journals of yesterday cabled from America ? That Mr. Patrick Ford of the Irish World, who used to collect money for the purpose of sending it to us is now collecting it for a very different purpose (hear, hear, from the Irish members). The right hon. gentleman may claim it as a part of his work (Irish cheers). I regret that it should be so. I look with the utmost apprehension to the future relations between England and Ireland (hear, hear). 1 see that is impossible to stem the torrent of prejudice which has arisen during the last few days. I regret that the officials charged with the administration of the Act are unfitted for their post (Irish cheers). lam afraid the right hon. gentleman the present Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant {must admit that to the fullest extent (hear, hear, from Irish members) ; and looking round upon the member for Bradford, he must say to himself, " Why am Ihere while he is there ? " (Sear, hear,). Why was the right hon. gentleman the member for Bradford, who had acquired experience in the administration of Ireland — who according to his own account knew everything, althongh he was invariably wrong (Irish cheers)— why was he deposed from his position and the right hon. gentleman Mr. Trevelyan— a 'prentice, although a very willing hand— placed in bis stead ? I feel, I think, that the Chief Secretary to the Lord lieutenant mußt say to himself in the words of Scripture, " lam not worthy to unloose bis shoe latchet" (hear, hear). It would have

been far better if yon were going to pass an act of this kind and to administer an Act of this kind as you are going to administer it, and as you have been obliged to administer it -up to the hilt — by the seasoned politician who is now in disgrace (Irish cheers). Call him back to his post (hear, hear). Send him to help Lord Spencer in the congenial work oE the gallows in Ireland (Irish cheera). Send him to look after the secret inquisitions of Dublin Castle (renewed cheers). Send him to superintend the payment of blood money (renewed cheers). Send him to distribute the taxes -which an unfortunate and starving peasantry have to pay for crimes not committed by them (renewed cheers). All this would be congenial work (further cheers). We invite you to man ranks, and send your ablest and best men (renewed cheers). Push forward the task of misgoverning and oppressing Ireland (loud Irish cheers). For my part I am confident as to the future of Ireland (hear, hear). Although her horizon may appear at this moment cloudy, I believe that our people will survive the present oppression (Irish cheers) as they have survived many and worse ones. And although our progress may be slow it will be sure (hear, hear), and the time will come when this House and the people of this country will admit once again that they have been mistaken — that they have been deceived by those who ought to be ashamed of deceiving them — that they have been led astray as to the right method of governing a noble, a generous, a brave, and impulsive people ; and that they will reject their present leaders, who are conducting them into the terrible which, I am sorry to say, the Government appears to be determined t» enter upon — that they will reject those guides and leaders with just as much determination as they rejected the services of the right hon. gentleman for Bradford (Irish cheers). Mr. Trevelyan and Mr. O'Shea rose together, and, amid loud calls for Mr. O'Shea", the former gave way. Mr. O'Shea — Yesterday the right hon. gentleman, in the course of his speech, said that no other name was mentioned in any conversation with him on Sunday, the Ist of May, except that of Mr. Sheridan. On the 16th of May last, in this House, I quote from Hansard—"Mr. O'Shea wished to say for the information of the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Dublin that he did mention Davitt to the right hon. gentleman the late Chief Secretary for Ireland on the Sunday in question, and the fact that the right hon. gentleman bad not entered the name in his .memoranda, was only another proof of his inaccuracy." The righthon. gentleman then rose and said : " I did not give a note of the whole conversation." As I am on my feet, I will merely ask why he did not give a note of the whole conversation. Was it that he wished to hoodwink his colleagues? (Home Rule cheers.)