105

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The Chairman : That removes the difficulty. Mr. Lysnar : I never had. The Chairman: Mr. Lysnar wants a certain cablegram. I suppose you will have no objection, Mr. Findlay, to producing any cablegram you sent in connection with any conversation ? Mr. Findlay : I have it with me. Page 729. Mr. Myers : I may say I have not seen it. Mr. Lysnar: Nor have I. Mr. Findlay was then sworn and examined. Mr. Myers.'] You are the New Zealand representative of the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company (Limited) ? —I am. Do you know Mr. W. D. Lysnar ?—I do. Did you, at or about the beginning of August, 1923, have any conversation with Mr. Lysnar ? — Yes. Mr. Lysnar called upon me. You said something before about the conversation being confidential: did anything arise in that connection ? —Mr. Lysnar on coming in asked me if he could have an absolutely confidential conversation with me, and I said he could. Will you proceed, then, to say what the conversation was, in exactly your own way, and in doing so you may, if you wish, for the purpose of refreshing your memory, look up any contemporaneous documents. First of all, can you tell us the date of the conversation ?—lt was a day or two prior to the 6th August, because the cable was sent on the 6tli August. But the precise date you cannot give us ? —No. Now, will you proceed ? —Mr. Lysnar put the proposition before me that one of the liners—the shipping companies—trading to New Zealand should—any one of them —purchase the " Admiral Codrington " on completion of her discharge on her then current voyage in the United Kingdom for the sum of £160,000 to £165,000. Mr. Lysnar then proceeded to tell me that he was pressing for a parliamentary Committee of Inquiry with a view to the setting-up or establishment of a producers' line, with power to make a levy on cargo, estimated to produce about £250,000 to £300,000 per annum. Mr. Lysnar went on to tell me that his object was to sell the " Admiral Codrington " to this producers' line if it eventuated, but if the liners would buy the " Admiral Codrington " he would not press for that inquiry, but if others pressed, he would have to appear to support it in view of his past utterances. He then Page 730. added that the intention was, if possible, to get the Government to advance £1,000,000 on the first four years' levy, with a view to doing something in the way of building a ship or two. On leaving he said that it was important from his point of view that the offer for the purchase of the " Admiral Codrington " should appear to come from the liners. As far as I remember, I told Mr. Lysnar that I did not think any of the liners would buy. Nevertheless he asked if I would put it before them, and this I did. The result was that a cable was sent to London, and the reply was received that they were not interested in the " Admiral Codrington." That, in brief, was my interview with Mr. Lysnar. I am quite prepared to put in the cablegram that was sent after consultation with the other shipping companies. Of course, when Mr. Lysnar left me I told him that I would have to repeat the purport of his conversation confidentially to the other shipping companies, and he said naturally he could raise no objection. Shall I read the cablegram and put it in ? Yes, please ? —lt is from the Overseas Committee here to the Overseas Committee, London, and is dated the 6th August, 1923. It reads : " 245, confidential. Lysnar offers to dispose of ' Admiral Codrington ' to liners after discharge for £160,000 to £165,000. Lysnar is pressing Government for parliamentary inquiry regarding desirability establishing producers' line with powers to make levy on cargo exported estimated to yield £250,000 to £300,000 per annum. Lysnar states his object being, if liners will not purchase, to dispose of ' Admiral Codrington 'to suggested producers' line. If liners buy, Lysnar undertakes not to press for legislation for a producers' line, but if pressed by others he would have to appear to support. If legislation passed producers propose to ask Government make an advance of £1,000,000 on first four years levy." The next passage is somewhat intimate, but you must have it : "We consider there is no prospect of legislation for producers' line passing on these lines at present time, and we consider scheme fantastic. Presume you will not consider purchase ' Admiral Codrington.' Please reply." [Cablegram put in.] You say this : "If liners buy, Lysnar undertakes not to press for legislation." Was that an undertaking asked for by you, or was it offered voluntarily by him ?- It was a spontaneous offer on Mr. Lysnar's part. Page 7 SI. You received a reply to that cable ?—The reply is as follows : " 212. Your 245. ' Admiral Codrington ' : We are not interested." I may say there was something in addition in that cablegram, but it had no bearing on the " Admiral Codrington " ; it was ordinary business. [Cablegram put in.] Mr. Johnston.] The Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company, which you represent, is a large shipping concern, is it not ? —Yes. And is mixed up or connected with other shipping concerns ? —There is a certain interest between us and the White Star line. At any rate, it is a very large interest that you represent ? —lt represents, to the best of my recollection, twenty-one steamers.

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